REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

In the garden, and RAIN!!!!

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, November 15, 2019 13:18
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Sunday, December 9, 2018 8:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Being cold is miserable. I think the only thing worse is being wet and cold.


It is miserable. Especially when you can't do anything about it.


Sorry to hear that Brenda. :(

Usually I'd be right with you there in solidarity, but I decided this year not to live in extreme cold inside the house because all I do is veg out under the covers playing games or watching youtube when I'm not at work. I refuse to let myself fall back into bad habits because it's cold outside, although I fear my heat bill is going to be a majority of what my take home pay is the next few months because of it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do you have a programmable thermostat? That saved me a bunch.

\

I don't.

I'm not going to say that it wouldn't help, because it probably would, but my furnace is from the early 60's and is still chugging along. It's in the attic, it's an upflow furnace, it puts the hot air along half of my roof before going down, and only heats from the ceilings in the 1st and 2nd floors, putting no hot air to the basement. There aren't enough returns, so the flow is very poor. You actually have to get up on a chair and feel about a foot 1/2 under the ducts to even feel the hot air coming out.

There is a slab and pipes for a basement furnace in the crawlspace, but until I'm sure I won't be having any flooding issues I'm not going to invest any money into that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 8:52 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sorry to hear that Brenda. :(

Usually I'd be right with you there in solidarity, but I decided this year not to live in extreme cold inside the house because all I do is veg out under the covers playing games or watching youtube when I'm not at work. I refuse to let myself fall back into bad habits because it's cold outside, although I fear my heat bill is going to be a majority of what my take home pay is the next few months because of it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do you have a programmable thermostat? That saved me a bunch.

\

I don't.

I'm not going to say that it wouldn't help, because it probably would, but my furnace is from the early 60's and is still chugging along. It's in the attic, it's an upflow furnace, it puts the hot air along half of my roof before going down, and only heats from the ceilings in the 1st and 2nd floors, putting no hot air to the basement. There aren't enough returns, so the flow is very poor. You actually have to get up on a chair and feel about a foot 1/2 under the ducts to even feel the hot air coming out.

There is a slab and pipes for a basement furnace in the crawlspace, but until I'm sure I won't be having any flooding issues I'm not going to invest any money into that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors? And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?
Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?
Do you have flow dampers in your ducts? Probably near your furnace, in the attic, but maybe elsewhere. Looks like an "L" lever in the side of the duct, or sometimes a "T"?
Is the ductwork in your attic bare metal, or wrapped in insulation, like a silver solar wrapping?
Have you used a thermometer to measure the temp at your heat vents, so you know what the temp is at each vent?

Do you have an air filter on the intake of the furnace, like before the air return goes into the furnace? Have you replaced it or cleaned/blown it out?

I'd bet your heat issue can be resolved for cheap, you just need to let it work. And I'm including your basement.

After you answer, I'll tell you what to try. But before I forget, the cheap options I'll talk about are at places like Restore, for instance. Plus St. Vincent's, Goodwill, Salvation Army.

Programmable thermostats do not need a new furnace, they just tell the furnace when to be on. So you can program it to be on an hour before you get home, an hour before you wake up, and mostly off the rest of the time. Unless you want it to be working mostly when the Sun is also helping, which saves the most $$. The last one I got was $14 about 8 years ago. The one I got 13 years ago was $30.

Once I tell you how to heat your house for cheap, instead of your roof shingles, you should save $$.

After you post a reply, you can start prep by measuring and writing down the temp at every single vent. You should also have at least one vent and also return which cannot be shut off, closed, etc. Identify which ones are those, if you don't already know. Also rest your thermometer on the main/central duct which comes out of the furnace, and record what that temp is when the furnace has run awhile, long enough for it to get warmed up. And if you can, rest/lean the thermometer against the duct at the attic floor, as it leaves the attic to go down through the house. You might have several of those, so any one is OK to record, or you can record 2: the one with the longest stretch of ductwork, with all twists and turns, from the furnace, and then the one with the shortest stretch of ductwork.


If you didn't know, putting all your heat into your roof shingles will melt the snow off your roof - and a layer of snow is actually great insulation from the outside cold and wind.

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 1:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey Signy, here's a (not very readable) chart for the last rain-year that shows when the rain wasn't.



And here's the most recent data they have for this year (they just put this up - only 5 months late).



No rain is in the forecast for the next 20 days.

fwiw if the gifs don't show up in this post (they did at first, now they don't) 'reply with quote' to pick up the urls and access them in your browser.

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 1:43 PM

BRENDA


Rain and cold here today.

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 5:49 PM

BRENDA


Tried those pancakes that I talked about and they are good. :)

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 6:04 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Tried those pancakes that I talked about and they are good. :)

How much water you add to that recipe? Or do you use 7-Up?

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 6:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Rain and cold here today.

Well dang-nab it for you. If you can't stay warm - stay dry!

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 8:45 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sorry to hear that Brenda. :(

Usually I'd be right with you there in solidarity, but I decided this year not to live in extreme cold inside the house because all I do is veg out under the covers playing games or watching youtube when I'm not at work. I refuse to let myself fall back into bad habits because it's cold outside, although I fear my heat bill is going to be a majority of what my take home pay is the next few months because of it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do you have a programmable thermostat? That saved me a bunch.

\

I don't.

I'm not going to say that it wouldn't help, because it probably would, but my furnace is from the early 60's and is still chugging along. It's in the attic, it's an upflow furnace, it puts the hot air along half of my roof before going down, and only heats from the ceilings in the 1st and 2nd floors, putting no hot air to the basement. There aren't enough returns, so the flow is very poor. You actually have to get up on a chair and feel about a foot 1/2 under the ducts to even feel the hot air coming out.

There is a slab and pipes for a basement furnace in the crawlspace, but until I'm sure I won't be having any flooding issues I'm not going to invest any money into that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors? And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?
Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?
Do you have flow dampers in your ducts? Probably near your furnace, in the attic, but maybe elsewhere. Looks like an "L" lever in the side of the duct, or sometimes a "T"?
Is the ductwork in your attic bare metal, or wrapped in insulation, like a silver solar wrapping?
Have you used a thermometer to measure the temp at your heat vents, so you know what the temp is at each vent?

Do you have an air filter on the intake of the furnace, like before the air return goes into the furnace? Have you replaced it or cleaned/blown it out?

I'd bet your heat issue can be resolved for cheap, you just need to let it work. And I'm including your basement.

After you answer, I'll tell you what to try. But before I forget, the cheap options I'll talk about are at places like Restore, for instance. Plus St. Vincent's, Goodwill, Salvation Army.

Programmable thermostats do not need a new furnace, they just tell the furnace when to be on. So you can program it to be on an hour before you get home, an hour before you wake up, and mostly off the rest of the time. Unless you want it to be working mostly when the Sun is also helping, which saves the most $$. The last one I got was $14 about 8 years ago. The one I got 13 years ago was $30.

Once I tell you how to heat your house for cheap, instead of your roof shingles, you should save $$.

After you post a reply, you can start prep by measuring and writing down the temp at every single vent. You should also have at least one vent and also return which cannot be shut off, closed, etc. Identify which ones are those, if you don't already know. Also rest your thermometer on the main/central duct which comes out of the furnace, and record what that temp is when the furnace has run awhile, long enough for it to get warmed up. And if you can, rest/lean the thermometer against the duct at the attic floor, as it leaves the attic to go down through the house. You might have several of those, so any one is OK to record, or you can record 2: the one with the longest stretch of ductwork, with all twists and turns, from the furnace, and then the one with the shortest stretch of ductwork.


If you didn't know, putting all your heat into your roof shingles will melt the snow off your roof - and a layer of snow is actually great insulation from the outside cold and wind.



Here's the only questions I can answer for you right now:

There is never any snow on my roof.

The attic isn't insulated at all, outside of just regular wall/ceiling insulation. The made it a "livable area" before I moved in, although no heat ducts are in the attic itself.

There are two duct systems in the house. The one I mentioned in the last post, and a second one that comes out in the walls of the basement and the floors on the 1st floor, but there is no furnace currently down on the slab in the crawl space. It was likely removed after it was ruined in a flood.


So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors?

Yes

And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?

Yes. And it's an "upflow" furnace to boot.

Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?

There is only one single large return in the middle of the 1st floor, and another one in the attic about 3 feet away from where the filter is right before it hits the blower. There is no return on the 2nd floor.

The filter was changed last month.




Honestly, until I get the money to get a furnace installed in the basement, my best bet is probably to just get some infrared heaters to do a majority of the heating and let this ancient beast I've got in the attic do the supplementary heating.

None of the existing duct work for the furnace in the attic is accessible without tearing apart walls in rooms I've already finished. I can, however, pretty easily get to any duct work for the basement and 1st floors from the crawlspace... Though that will become a tougher job as I get older.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 9:25 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Tried those pancakes that I talked about and they are good. :)

How much water you add to that recipe? Or do you use 7-Up?



I used water and I don't know. Wasn't measuring anything.

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 9:26 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Rain and cold here today.

Well dang-nab it for you. If you can't stay warm - stay dry!



I was dry as I stayed in all day.

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Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sorry to hear that Brenda. :(

Usually I'd be right with you there in solidarity, but I decided this year not to live in extreme cold inside the house because all I do is veg out under the covers playing games or watching youtube when I'm not at work. I refuse to let myself fall back into bad habits because it's cold outside, although I fear my heat bill is going to be a majority of what my take home pay is the next few months because of it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do you have a programmable thermostat? That saved me a bunch.

\

I don't.

I'm not going to say that it wouldn't help, because it probably would, but my furnace is from the early 60's and is still chugging along. It's in the attic, it's an upflow furnace, it puts the hot air along half of my roof before going down, and only heats from the ceilings in the 1st and 2nd floors, putting no hot air to the basement. There aren't enough returns, so the flow is very poor. You actually have to get up on a chair and feel about a foot 1/2 under the ducts to even feel the hot air coming out.

There is a slab and pipes for a basement furnace in the crawlspace, but until I'm sure I won't be having any flooding issues I'm not going to invest any money into that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors? And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?
Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?
Do you have flow dampers in your ducts? Probably near your furnace, in the attic, but maybe elsewhere. Looks like an "L" lever in the side of the duct, or sometimes a "T"?
Is the ductwork in your attic bare metal, or wrapped in insulation, like a silver solar wrapping?
Have you used a thermometer to measure the temp at your heat vents, so you know what the temp is at each vent?

Do you have an air filter on the intake of the furnace, like before the air return goes into the furnace? Have you replaced it or cleaned/blown it out?

I'd bet your heat issue can be resolved for cheap, you just need to let it work. And I'm including your basement.

After you answer, I'll tell you what to try. But before I forget, the cheap options I'll talk about are at places like Restore, for instance. Plus St. Vincent's, Goodwill, Salvation Army.

Programmable thermostats do not need a new furnace, they just tell the furnace when to be on. So you can program it to be on an hour before you get home, an hour before you wake up, and mostly off the rest of the time. Unless you want it to be working mostly when the Sun is also helping, which saves the most $$. The last one I got was $14 about 8 years ago. The one I got 13 years ago was $30.

Once I tell you how to heat your house for cheap, instead of your roof shingles, you should save $$.

After you post a reply, you can start prep by measuring and writing down the temp at every single vent. You should also have at least one vent and also return which cannot be shut off, closed, etc. Identify which ones are those, if you don't already know. Also rest your thermometer on the main/central duct which comes out of the furnace, and record what that temp is when the furnace has run awhile, long enough for it to get warmed up. And if you can, rest/lean the thermometer against the duct at the attic floor, as it leaves the attic to go down through the house. You might have several of those, so any one is OK to record, or you can record 2: the one with the longest stretch of ductwork, with all twists and turns, from the furnace, and then the one with the shortest stretch of ductwork.


If you didn't know, putting all your heat into your roof shingles will melt the snow off your roof - and a layer of snow is actually great insulation from the outside cold and wind.

Here's the only questions I can answer for you right now:

There is never any snow on my roof.

The attic isn't insulated at all, outside of just regular wall/ceiling insulation. The made it a "livable area" before I moved in, although no heat ducts are in the attic itself.

There are two duct systems in the house. The one I mentioned in the last post, and a second one that comes out in the walls of the basement and the floors on the 1st floor, but there is no furnace currently down on the slab in the crawl space. It was likely removed after it was ruined in a flood.


So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors?

Yes

And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?

Yes. And it's an "upflow" furnace to boot.

Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?

There is only one single large return in the middle of the 1st floor, and another one in the attic about 3 feet away from where the filter is right before it hits the blower. There is no return on the 2nd floor.

The filter was changed last month.


None of the existing duct work for the furnace in the attic is accessible without tearing apart walls in rooms I've already finished. I can, however, pretty easily get to any duct work for the basement and 1st floors from the crawlspace... Though that will become a tougher job as I get older.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

When I mentioned ducts in the attic, I was referring to ductwork which comes out of the furnace, to eventually arrive at the vents in the rooms below. Ducts could be circular sheet metal, aka "stovepipe" tubes, or rectangular sheetmetal for larger volumes.
I am assuming you do not have an outlet vent in the attic, only the return which you have now mentioned.

When I said leaning the thermometer against the duct at the floor of the attic, this means just measuring the temp on the outer surface of the ductwork, at the point the ductwork is leaving the attic space. I can understand that this spot may be not easily accessible.

And I'm not talking about any ductwork that is inside your walls. None of these solutions should mess with any wall interiors.


It sounds to me that you have the 2 standard and common issues, which I had assumed were the case, and which have largely inexpensive and fairly simple "bandaids" - unless you tell me something new.

In addition to these 2 common issues, you mention this 2nd unused ductwork system, which can really be useful, assuming it is still intact.


Your 2 common issues, which often snowball on each other, are (1) system flow and (2) directional heat retention/Integrity.

Not wanting to add strain to the blower fan of the furnace, I would not want to restrict intake flow of the attic return. Instead, you should add some booster fans to refocus the flow.
You can use temporary bandaids until you understand how well your system is capable of working.

1. Put a floor fan on your 1st floor return, right up against it, forcing air into the return. A simple, cheap box fan should work. You didn't specify if the return is in the floor, or ceiling, or wall. Regardless, this will help pull more heated air out of the 1st floor vents.

2. Put some more smaller fans on the heat vent grates of the 1st floor vents. All of these will also help reduce work and strain on the blower fan of the furnace. Small fans like personal fans, or desk fans can work, whatever you find for cheap. These will be mounted to suck the air out of the vent on 1st floor. A small enough fan can be placed/rested right on top of the vent grate (in the ceiling) with the power cord dangling through the vent slot. You could also mount/strap a lightweight fan directly to the bottom of the vent grate.

Because of the property of heat rising, I would not be too concerned with the 2nd floor to start with, until you clearly know the full capability of your furnace heat capacity.

Currently, your lack of flow is allowing your heated air to stagnate for far too much time in the Attic ductwork, allowing heat to dissipate through the sheet metal and leak into the attic space, which would preferably be cool. Sucking heated air out of the 1st floor vents and pushing air into the 1sy floor return should vastly help improve overall flow, and also carry that freshly heated air out of the attic ductwork and down into the 1st floor.

3. Insulate the ductwork in the attic, most importantly right out of the furnace. Use whatever cheap insulation you can find. Professional installation would use the silver insulation wrapping, but you can use plain paper backing. Use duct tape to fasten it to the sheetmetal. It should be snug to the ductwork, but not tight. Do not compress, flatten, tightwrap the insulation - the fluffiness of the insulation is what makes it insulate. Probably best to fasten the insulation strips lengthwise on the ductwork.
The purpose of this is to reduce the temp drop/loss of the freshly heated air from the output of the furnace to the exit from the attic, down through the floor (via ductwork).

I hope this is making sense, explained adequately. It should help for thatyou to measure these actual temps in specific locations, BEFORE you make these changes, so you can make comparison to what each improvement makes.

If you didn't know, having hot air in the Attic, with that return grate in the attic, vastly shrinks the efficiency of the furnace heating function - it is best to feed the furnace cool air.

4. After you get heat more readily in your 1st floor, you can use that 2nd unused ducted network to heat the basement. Although there is another option.
Use some cardboard and duct tape to fashion a simple duct adaptor from the end of the duct network to a simple box floor fan, so that the fan sucks the air through ducting and blows into the basement the air from the heated house. Or use both the heat supply ductwork, and the return ducting with a fan on each, to transfer air from the heated house to the basement. The heat rising rule should handle the 'return" I expect.


Whatever the diameter of the ductwork leaving the attic through the floor, I think I've seen booster blower motors to be in-line mounted, which would suck all that heated air out of the attic ductwork before it can dissipate to the roof shingles.

I forgot to ask about the blower fan. Is it direct drive, with a motor right on the fan? Or is it belt driven? If belted, check that the belt tension is good.

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Wednesday, December 12, 2018 3:05 AM

BRENDA


Rain and a broken umbrella yesterday. More rain tomorrow.

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Friday, December 14, 2018 7:06 PM

BRENDA


My idiot landlady just came down here a while ago and accused me of putting too much strain on the electrical in the house. They have a flickering light in their kitchen and she's worried that when it blows it will knock out the power. I don't think so but I couldn't say that to her.

Also they are just figuring out that this house wasn't designed to handle all the strain. I could only look at her and think, "Well, no bloody duh."

That's what you get for building illegally. Now my worry is that they may try to sell the house.


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Friday, December 14, 2018 10:52 PM

BRENDA


Well, I just had a fall in this place. Tripped over something and went down hard on my knees and right hand.

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Friday, December 14, 2018 11:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


:(

Hope you're okay Brenda.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 15, 2018 12:16 AM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
:(

Hope you're okay Brenda.

Do Right, Be Right. :)



Hey Jack. Yeah, I'm okay. My knees will be sporting lovely bruises tomorrow and over the next week. Right pinky finger is a little sore still and feeling a little stiff. Have to make sure that I wear gloves tonight in bed, so my hand doesn't seize up.

Got things to do on the morrow. Forgot to pay a bill yesterday(Friday).

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Saturday, December 15, 2018 12:35 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Sorry to hear that Brenda. :(

Usually I'd be right with you there in solidarity, but I decided this year not to live in extreme cold inside the house because all I do is veg out under the covers playing games or watching youtube when I'm not at work. I refuse to let myself fall back into bad habits because it's cold outside, although I fear my heat bill is going to be a majority of what my take home pay is the next few months because of it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Do you have a programmable thermostat? That saved me a bunch.

\

I don't.

I'm not going to say that it wouldn't help, because it probably would, but my furnace is from the early 60's and is still chugging along. It's in the attic, it's an upflow furnace, it puts the hot air along half of my roof before going down, and only heats from the ceilings in the 1st and 2nd floors, putting no hot air to the basement. There aren't enough returns, so the flow is very poor. You actually have to get up on a chair and feel about a foot 1/2 under the ducts to even feel the hot air coming out.

There is a slab and pipes for a basement furnace in the crawlspace, but until I'm sure I won't be having any flooding issues I'm not going to invest any money into that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors? And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?
Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?
Do you have flow dampers in your ducts? Probably near your furnace, in the attic, but maybe elsewhere. Looks like an "L" lever in the side of the duct, or sometimes a "T"?
Is the ductwork in your attic bare metal, or wrapped in insulation, like a silver solar wrapping?
Have you used a thermometer to measure the temp at your heat vents, so you know what the temp is at each vent?

Do you have an air filter on the intake of the furnace, like before the air return goes into the furnace? Have you replaced it or cleaned/blown it out?

I'd bet your heat issue can be resolved for cheap, you just need to let it work. And I'm including your basement.

After you answer, I'll tell you what to try. But before I forget, the cheap options I'll talk about are at places like Restore, for instance. Plus St. Vincent's, Goodwill, Salvation Army.

Programmable thermostats do not need a new furnace, they just tell the furnace when to be on. So you can program it to be on an hour before you get home, an hour before you wake up, and mostly off the rest of the time. Unless you want it to be working mostly when the Sun is also helping, which saves the most $$. The last one I got was $14 about 8 years ago. The one I got 13 years ago was $30.

Once I tell you how to heat your house for cheap, instead of your roof shingles, you should save $$.

After you post a reply, you can start prep by measuring and writing down the temp at every single vent. You should also have at least one vent and also return which cannot be shut off, closed, etc. Identify which ones are those, if you don't already know. Also rest your thermometer on the main/central duct which comes out of the furnace, and record what that temp is when the furnace has run awhile, long enough for it to get warmed up. And if you can, rest/lean the thermometer against the duct at the attic floor, as it leaves the attic to go down through the house. You might have several of those, so any one is OK to record, or you can record 2: the one with the longest stretch of ductwork, with all twists and turns, from the furnace, and then the one with the shortest stretch of ductwork.


If you didn't know, putting all your heat into your roof shingles will melt the snow off your roof - and a layer of snow is actually great insulation from the outside cold and wind.

Here's the only questions I can answer for you right now:

There is never any snow on my roof.

The attic isn't insulated at all, outside of just regular wall/ceiling insulation. The made it a "livable area" before I moved in, although no heat ducts are in the attic itself.

There are two duct systems in the house. The one I mentioned in the last post, and a second one that comes out in the walls of the basement and the floors on the 1st floor, but there is no furnace currently down on the slab in the crawl space. It was likely removed after it was ruined in a flood.


So all of your heat supply outlet vents are in the ceiling of your 1st & 2nd floors?

Yes

And your furnace is above the ceiling of the 2nd floor?

Yes. And it's an "upflow" furnace to boot.

Where are your returns? In the floors, at the bottom of the walls, also in the ceiling? One in each room, one on each floor?

There is only one single large return in the middle of the 1st floor, and another one in the attic about 3 feet away from where the filter is right before it hits the blower. There is no return on the 2nd floor.

The filter was changed last month.


None of the existing duct work for the furnace in the attic is accessible without tearing apart walls in rooms I've already finished. I can, however, pretty easily get to any duct work for the basement and 1st floors from the crawlspace... Though that will become a tougher job as I get older.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

When I mentioned ducts in the attic, I was referring to ductwork which comes out of the furnace, to eventually arrive at the vents in the rooms below. Ducts could be circular sheet metal, aka "stovepipe" tubes, or rectangular sheetmetal for larger volumes.
I am assuming you do not have an outlet vent in the attic, only the return which you have now mentioned.

When I said leaning the thermometer against the duct at the floor of the attic, this means just measuring the temp on the outer surface of the ductwork, at the point the ductwork is leaving the attic space. I can understand that this spot may be not easily accessible.

And I'm not talking about any ductwork that is inside your walls. None of these solutions should mess with any wall interiors.


It sounds to me that you have the 2 standard and common issues, which I had assumed were the case, and which have largely inexpensive and fairly simple "bandaids" - unless you tell me something new.

In addition to these 2 common issues, you mention this 2nd unused ductwork system, which can really be useful, assuming it is still intact.


Your 2 common issues, which often snowball on each other, are (1) system flow and (2) directional heat retention/Integrity.

Not wanting to add strain to the blower fan of the furnace, I would not want to restrict intake flow of the attic return. Instead, you should add some booster fans to refocus the flow.
You can use temporary bandaids until you understand how well your system is capable of working.

1. Put a floor fan on your 1st floor return, right up against it, forcing air into the return. A simple, cheap box fan should work. You didn't specify if the return is in the floor, or ceiling, or wall. Regardless, this will help pull more heated air out of the 1st floor vents.

2. Put some more smaller fans on the heat vent grates of the 1st floor vents. All of these will also help reduce work and strain on the blower fan of the furnace. Small fans like personal fans, or desk fans can work, whatever you find for cheap. These will be mounted to suck the air out of the vent on 1st floor. A small enough fan can be placed/rested right on top of the vent grate (in the ceiling) with the power cord dangling through the vent slot. You could also mount/strap a lightweight fan directly to the bottom of the vent grate.

Because of the property of heat rising, I would not be too concerned with the 2nd floor to start with, until you clearly know the full capability of your furnace heat capacity.

Currently, your lack of flow is allowing your heated air to stagnate for far too much time in the Attic ductwork, allowing heat to dissipate through the sheet metal and leak into the attic space, which would preferably be cool. Sucking heated air out of the 1st floor vents and pushing air into the 1sy floor return should vastly help improve overall flow, and also carry that freshly heated air out of the attic ductwork and down into the 1st floor.

3. Insulate the ductwork in the attic, most importantly right out of the furnace. Use whatever cheap insulation you can find. Professional installation would use the silver insulation wrapping, but you can use plain paper backing. Use duct tape to fasten it to the sheetmetal. It should be snug to the ductwork, but not tight. Do not compress, flatten, tightwrap the insulation - the fluffiness of the insulation is what makes it insulate. Probably best to fasten the insulation strips lengthwise on the ductwork.
The purpose of this is to reduce the temp drop/loss of the freshly heated air from the output of the furnace to the exit from the attic, down through the floor (via ductwork).

I hope this is making sense, explained adequately. It should help for thatyou to measure these actual temps in specific locations, BEFORE you make these changes, so you can make comparison to what each improvement makes.

If you didn't know, having hot air in the Attic, with that return grate in the attic, vastly shrinks the efficiency of the furnace heating function - it is best to feed the furnace cool air.

4. After you get heat more readily in your 1st floor, you can use that 2nd unused ducted network to heat the basement. Although there is another option.
Use some cardboard and duct tape to fashion a simple duct adaptor from the end of the duct network to a simple box floor fan, so that the fan sucks the air through ducting and blows into the basement the air from the heated house. Or use both the heat supply ductwork, and the return ducting with a fan on each, to transfer air from the heated house to the basement. The heat rising rule should handle the 'return" I expect.


Whatever the diameter of the ductwork leaving the attic through the floor, I think I've seen booster blower motors to be in-line mounted, which would suck all that heated air out of the attic ductwork before it can dissipate to the roof shingles.

I forgot to ask about the blower fan. Is it direct drive, with a motor right on the fan? Or is it belt driven? If belted, check that the belt tension is good.

Did any of that make sense?

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Saturday, December 15, 2018 9:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
When I mentioned ducts in the attic, I was referring to ductwork which comes out of the furnace, to eventually arrive at the vents in the rooms below. Ducts could be circular sheet metal, aka "stovepipe" tubes, or rectangular sheetmetal for larger volumes.



Without looking at it again, I'm going to say that most if not all of the duct work is the rectangular fashion.

Quote:

I am assuming you do not have an outlet vent in the attic, only the return which you have now mentioned.


No outlet in the attic, just the return. It's about 2.5 ft from the filter and the blower, so it's probably doing more harm than good even existing since it's pulling cold air from the attic instead of warmer air from the larger return on the first floor living room.

Quote:

When I said leaning the thermometer against the duct at the floor of the attic, this means just measuring the temp on the outer surface of the ductwork, at the point the ductwork is leaving the attic space. I can understand that this spot may be not easily accessible.


This would probably not be too hard, actually. It would probably be interesting to see how "warm" that duct work is since it already traveled along the roof before making its way down.

Quote:

And I'm not talking about any ductwork that is inside your walls. None of these solutions should mess with any wall interiors.


Cool. I can't really do anything about those without causing a lot of damage anyhow.


Quote:

It sounds to me that you have the 2 standard and common issues, which I had assumed were the case, and which have largely inexpensive and fairly simple "bandaids" - unless you tell me something new.

In addition to these 2 common issues, you mention this 2nd unused ductwork system, which can really be useful, assuming it is still intact.



It's not all still intact. I'd say about half of it is. I'd have to plan out how to properly lay it out in the crawl space whenever I get around to putting a furnace down there since I wouldn't want it blocking my entry or making it even harder to get down there when I need to for the extremely necessary sump pump system.

Quote:

Your 2 common issues, which often snowball on each other, are (1) system flow and (2) directional heat retention/Integrity.

Not wanting to add strain to the blower fan of the furnace, I would not want to restrict intake flow of the attic return. Instead, you should add some booster fans to refocus the flow.
You can use temporary bandaids until you understand how well your system is capable of working.

1. Put a floor fan on your 1st floor return, right up against it, forcing air into the return. A simple, cheap box fan should work. You didn't specify if the return is in the floor, or ceiling, or wall. Regardless, this will help pull more heated air out of the 1st floor vents.



This could be a problem. The return is very high up... about a foot from the ceiling. I haven't measured it, but I'd guess it's around 10" tall and 24" wide. A box fan probably wouldn't be a good solution.


Quote:

2. Put some more smaller fans on the heat vent grates of the 1st floor vents. All of these will also help reduce work and strain on the blower fan of the furnace. Small fans like personal fans, or desk fans can work, whatever you find for cheap. These will be mounted to suck the air out of the vent on 1st floor. A small enough fan can be placed/rested right on top of the vent grate (in the ceiling) with the power cord dangling through the vent slot. You could also mount/strap a lightweight fan directly to the bottom of the vent grate.


Do you know if they make fans specifically for this purpose?

Here's a picture of a similar vent cover for the vents in my ceiling:



Accord Ventilation White Steel Ceiling Diffuser (Rough Opening: 8-in x 8-in; Actual: 10.61-in x 10.61-in)

I'm not sure if that's my exact dimensions, but that's what it says on lowes and this picture looks identical to my vents.

Quote:

Because of the property of heat rising, I would not be too concerned with the 2nd floor to start with, until you clearly know the full capability of your furnace heat capacity.


Makes sense.

Also, except for when my brother comes to visit around Christmas, I don't even use the two bedrooms upstairs, so I close those 2 of the 3 vents on the 2nd floor, as well as the doors.

Quote:

Currently, your lack of flow is allowing your heated air to stagnate for far too much time in the Attic ductwork, allowing heat to dissipate through the sheet metal and leak into the attic space, which would preferably be cool. Sucking heated air out of the 1st floor vents and pushing air into the 1sy floor return should vastly help improve overall flow, and also carry that freshly heated air out of the attic ductwork and down into the 1st floor.


Makes sense. Would have to figure out a way to remedy this that wouldn't be completely ghetto though.

Quote:

3. Insulate the ductwork in the attic, most importantly right out of the furnace. Use whatever cheap insulation you can find. Professional installation would use the silver insulation wrapping, but you can use plain paper backing. Use duct tape to fasten it to the sheetmetal. It should be snug to the ductwork, but not tight. Do not compress, flatten, tightwrap the insulation - the fluffiness of the insulation is what makes it insulate. Probably best to fasten the insulation strips lengthwise on the ductwork.
The purpose of this is to reduce the temp drop/loss of the freshly heated air from the output of the furnace to the exit from the attic, down through the floor (via ductwork).



That should be pretty cheap and easy. It's all hidden from anybody's view too, so it doesn't have to look perfect.


Quote:

I hope this is making sense, explained adequately. It should help for thatyou to measure these actual temps in specific locations, BEFORE you make these changes, so you can make comparison to what each improvement makes.

If you didn't know, having hot air in the Attic, with that return grate in the attic, vastly shrinks the efficiency of the furnace heating function - it is best to feed the furnace cool air.



I didn't know that. Trust me... It's never "hot" in the attic, even with these problems. Any heat that is staying up here instead of making it down into the living space is pretty quickly dissipated to the outdoors because the insulation up there is not good at all on top of all of the other problems. It pretty much just hangs around long enough to melt the snow off my roof.

Quote:

4. After you get heat more readily in your 1st floor, you can use that 2nd unused ducted network to heat the basement. Although there is another option.


It's not tied in at all to the one we're talking about.

It's a completely separate system that is meant to be used with a 2nd furnace. All that sits there is an empty slab and the gas line.


Quote:

Use some cardboard and duct tape to fashion a simple duct adaptor from the end of the duct network to a simple box floor fan, so that the fan sucks the air through ducting and blows into the basement the air from the heated house. Or use both the heat supply ductwork, and the return ducting with a fan on each, to transfer air from the heated house to the basement. The heat rising rule should handle the 'return" I expect.


I think I see what you're getting at now, but honestly, there would have to be a HUGE improvement of the heat in the 1st and 2nd floors for this to do anything at all. As it is now, it's really expensive to heat the 1st and 2nd floor and it's not very comfortable once it starts getting in the single digits and below. It's fine right now, but by the middle of Janurary my bills are going to be much higher and it's not going to be very warm.



Quote:

Whatever the diameter of the ductwork leaving the attic through the floor, I think I've seen booster blower motors to be in-line mounted, which would suck all that heated air out of the attic ductwork before it can dissipate to the roof shingles.

I forgot to ask about the blower fan. Is it direct drive, with a motor right on the fan? Or is it belt driven? If belted, check that the belt tension is good.



I don't really know about this.


Thanks for taking the time to detail this info. I wasn't ignoring it. I just wanted to be able to sit down and write back.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:47 PM

BRENDA


For a treat today I bought $12 in scratch lottery tickets and won about $17.

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Saturday, December 15, 2018 10:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
For a treat today I bought $12 in scratch lottery tickets and won about $17.

YAY!!

And, I missed the post way back when where you fell. I hope you're OK.

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Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:24 AM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
For a treat today I bought $12 in scratch lottery tickets and won about $17.

YAY!!

And, I missed the post way back when where you fell. I hope you're OK.



The winning was good. :)

The fall happened after my idiot landlady was down again blaming me for the problems they are having upstairs. I've almost tripped over the object before and last night just wasn't a good evening. But on the flip side I am okay. Right hand feels a little stiff but it works and no major bruising on my knees. So, yeah I am okay Kiki.

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Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:25 AM

BRENDA


New comic and collectable shop has opened in a local mall. Going to get a couple of back issues of Wolverine and maybe one or two of Gambit and X-Men for a Christmas to me.

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Sunday, December 16, 2018 7:51 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix,

1. You had not specified the location of your 1st floor return, until now. I think a box fan should work fine, at least until you have a better understanding of how much heat capacity your furnace has, which you really don't know right now. First, support the weight of the fan - if you cannot put ceiling hooks in, and then hang the fan from them, then any cheap support like a $5 bookcase or other tall furniture can be used to rest the fan weight upon it. After supporting the weight, use wire ties or simple twist ties to mate the fan grille to the return grate. Put that fan on high speed.

2. I assumed you could find cheap mini-fans, which would push the warm air down at least more than the few inches it does now.
I'm sure there are fans made for this. I might try a regular ceiling exhaust/ventilation fan, like for the bathroom, but reversing the motor polarity. But my bathroom fan was about $100, and I'm not going to tell you to do that until you see just how well all of this works. Do you have any spare PC fans laying around - the AC versions?


Embrace the ghetto for the moment, staying cheap. Until you fully understand what does work, and what does not. Then pretty up the factors that you think had the best impact, as time and money allow. I am not imagining you spending a pile of cash on all this.

When you measure the temp on the outer surface of the attic ducting, both at the output of the furnace and at the departure point going into the attic floor, you will know the temperature drop across this span of ductwork. This temp drop really should be 5 degrees or less, but I suspect yours is like 30-50 degrees.



Furnace efficiency. Imagine a furnace sucking in 50-60 degree air, firing on full burn to heat that air up to about 100 degrees on the way out to heating vents. That is efficient, adding 40-50 degrees of heat. Now imagine the same furnace sucking in 80 degree air, heating up to 100-110 degrees. All that burning energy, used up on air that is already warm. There isn't enough temp differential available for the furnace to be as efficient as it would be with cooler air.

So our prime goal here is to add a series of booster fans on 1st floor to improve the flow of air through the furnace blower, as well as through the ductwork and then through the rooms which receive heat.

Maybe the best way to think of this is "for troubleshooting purposes only" so that you only end up throwing money at the things you understand are worth it. If absolutely nothing changes (which I doubt, they work great in my houses), then you didn't waste anything.

So, what is the actual temperature coming out of the heating vents?

And remember to shop at Restore for the used equipment.

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Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:13 PM

BRENDA


Hit the wrong button. "laugh:

Cold and most likely wet here today. Good thing I am staying in.

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Monday, December 17, 2018 8:15 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I had my mind on this when I was talking to my folks on the phone the other night, and I remembered that I had a cheapo non-digital thermometer in the basement by the crawl space. It was laying on the cold tile floor and it was right around 55 or 56 degrees.

I took it upstairs to the first floor, about 2-3 feet under the 1st floor return and let it sit for a few minutes and was pretty happy to see that it was reading about 67 degrees, which is only 1 degree less than I have the thermostat on the 2nd floor set to. (Good news, although it has been quite "warm" the last 5 or so days around here, reaching highs in the 40's and lows only in the high 20's, and it hasn't been really windy).

The temp reaches between 71 and 72 in the bathroom and the hallway on the 2nd floor before the heat stops. This means that, at least when it's this warm, the differential between the 2nd floor where the thermostat is and the cold tile floors in the basement is only around 15 degrees at most.

This is also good news, but I know that this differential only grows the colder and windier it gets outside.

It should be noted, however, that at 68 degrees the thermostat is now set 5 degrees higher than I've ever had it set to since I've owned the house. I'm not sure how this alone is going to change my experience this year compared to previous years. I should be getting my first bill with the temp up this high sometime late this week.

Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,

1. You had not specified the location of your 1st floor return, until now. I think a box fan should work fine, at least until you have a better understanding of how much heat capacity your furnace has, which you really don't know right now. First, support the weight of the fan - if you cannot put ceiling hooks in, and then hang the fan from them, then any cheap support like a $5 bookcase or other tall furniture can be used to rest the fan weight upon it. After supporting the weight, use wire ties or simple twist ties to mate the fan grille to the return grate. Put that fan on high speed.



I haven't remodeled the living room yet since it was the nicest looking room in the house when I bought it and would only really require a paint job unless I don't end up being lazy and put the extreme effort of adding new conduit through the wall and ceiling to put a junction box for a ceiling fan in there (I have no idea why these old houses so often didn't have any outlets on the ceiling in huge rooms like this)

I still really don't want to be putting hooks up there though. I do have a unique looking little curio/shelving unit that is close to it. I could take all of the stuff off the top shelf and move it underneath the return. I might have to build it up about a half a foot with books or something. Good idea.

Any ideas how I could rig something up so it is somewhat "sealed" and isn't just pushing air around the outside of the hole and a majority of the work it's doing would be going into the return?

Quote:

3. I assumed you could find cheap mini-fans, which would push the warm air down at least more than the few inches it does now.
I'm sure there are fans made for this. I might try a regular ceiling exhaust/ventilation fan, like for the bathroom, but reversing the motor polarity. But my bathroom fan was about $100, and I'm not going to tell you to do that until you see just how well all of this works. Do you have any spare PC fans laying around - the AC versions?



Yeah... I'm not going to put 300 bucks into fans for the first floor, even if I find out this ends up working great. :)

I'll have to do a little research and see if I can find something better.

I might have a spare PC fan or two lying around, but I don't believe I have 3 of them right now. Come to think of it though, I do have a 2nd desktop computer that crapped out on me a few years back. I bet there are some in there I could clean up for the task. Don't you think they'd be too low powered for the task?

Also, do you know how I'd be able to power them? They have the molex connectors. It didn't occur to me until now that any fan setup I do right now, however temporary, would require extension cords hanging from the middle of the ceiling. Maybe I'll look on youtube and see if anybody has a hack job way of rigging up a few batteries to power these fans and I can hang the fans and the power packs to the vents.

I've got a small vornado fan that would suck any air in the vents and blow it straight to the floor. I've only got one of them though, and it might be too heavy to hang up there. It would also require that cord hanging from the ceiling to an extension cord too.


Quote:

Embrace the ghetto for the moment, staying cheap. Until you fully understand what does work, and what does not. Then pretty up the factors that you think had the best impact, as time and money allow. I am not imagining you spending a pile of cash on all this.

When you measure the temp on the outer surface of the attic ducting, both at the output of the furnace and at the departure point going into the attic floor, you will know the temperature drop across this span of ductwork. This temp drop really should be 5 degrees or less, but I suspect yours is like 30-50 degrees.



Because of the nature of the tri-level house, the "livable space" in the attic is really only on half of the house, under the roof. The other half, where the furnace is located and where the access to everything I'll need to be doing is on top of the 2nd floor bedrooms and bathroom, so it's really small up there. The furnace itself is in a room that encloses this area, but is out a few feet to the lower area and the furnace itself is actually on top of the 1st floor living room. I can't remember right now if the ductwork to the vents comes out from the ceiling at this point, or above the 2nd floor. I'm assuming since there are vents on the 2nd floor ceiling that this is where it ties in.



Quote:

Furnace efficiency. Imagine a furnace sucking in 50-60 degree air, firing on full burn to heat that air up to about 100 degrees on the way out to heating vents. That is efficient, adding 40-50 degrees of heat. Now imagine the same furnace sucking in 80 degree air, heating up to 100-110 degrees. All that burning energy, used up on air that is already warm. There isn't enough temp differential available for the furnace to be as efficient as it would be with cooler air.


Yeah. I get it. There's no worry about it pulling in 80 degree air here. Like I said the air by the return on the 1st floor is reading around 65-66, and it's not really that cold out right now. Though it is warmer in the attic than it should be ideally, it is colder up there than the rest of the house due to the fact there are no vents up there.

Quote:

So our prime goal here is to add a series of booster fans on 1st floor to improve the flow of air through the furnace blower, as well as through the ductwork and then through the rooms which receive heat.

Maybe the best way to think of this is "for troubleshooting purposes only" so that you only end up throwing money at the things you understand are worth it. If absolutely nothing changes (which I doubt, they work great in my houses), then you didn't waste anything.



Copy that.

Quote:

So, what is the actual temperature coming out of the heating vents?


That's a good question. Besides my thermostat, the only device I have now is a dollar store thermometer with mercury in it (or whatever mercury substitute those cheap thermometers use).

Well... I do have a digital thermometer for checking your own temperature. Do you think that would work for testing this? I don't think that dollar store one is really going to do the job.

Quote:

And remember to shop at Restore for the used equipment.



We've got a Habitat for Humanity around me, but those prices aren't very good there. I might be able to luck into something at the Goodwill though.






BTW... when I moved into the house, I figured out about a month before it started getting cold that the furnace didn't work at all. I don't rememer exactly what I did ouside of changing the thermocouple, but wiring to the unit and the blower fan was bad, and there was a problem with the fan limit switch as well. I talked with some guys on a DIY forum and eventually got everything "working".

My fan limit looks something similar to this one:



Any advice as to what temperatures those should be set to? I don't remember where I have them now, but it just occurred to me that I might have that set poorly and that's also contributing to my inefficiency here.

Thanks again for taking the time. I apologize that I haven't done much to look into things yet, but I've been pretty deathly ill for about the last week. I'm getting over it now, but last night at work was pretty freaking terrible. I have a few more days to make it through before I'm off, then I should have time to get some information.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, December 17, 2018 4:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix,
I didn't realize your blower fan was known to be wonky. I had understood that it was not functioning adequately by your list of symptoms, but didn't know it has never been set correctly to function correctly.

Fixing that should fix most of the problems you have. Skip the rest until you get that going.

What is yours currently set at? The settings/pointers/needles should have one in a lower range of numbers, and the other in a higher range of numbers.
Your answer here will tell me what is next.




Regarding your question about booster fan, I don't even have mine mated to the grates. One is within a foot of the output vent which cannot be closed/shut off (there must always be one of these). I leave it on high or medium when I want the house heated up or cooled down, and it cuts that time in half or thirds. The entire house gets temp controlled much better just from that alone. The other booster fan I use is in my bedroom, only used during A/C, and is 1-2 feet from the vent, often on low speed. Works fantastic, making that the coolest room in the house, even though it is on the top floor.

Regarding your thermometers, either should work fine. Use both of them in the same spot, and assuming they have the same reading, there is your proof.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2018 2:27 AM

BRENDA


Tired, tired. Cold, cold, cold.

Also wind and rain here.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2018 7:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
I didn't realize your blower fan was known to be wonky. I had understood that it was not functioning adequately by your list of symptoms, but didn't know it has never been set correctly to function correctly.



Well... It's not wonky, per se. When the people who lived here before me got foreclosed on, they took a lot of stuff with them. I'm assuming they screwed the furnace up bad when they took out the A/C unit and all the copper right up to the blower. The wiring was bad and the furnace just didn't work at all. I don't remember all the details all these years later and what all I needed to do to get it to work, but it was pretty detailed.

When I say that it's not wonky, what I mean is it always behaves exactly the same... every time it fires up, and for every winter I've lived here. That's not to say that it's set up correctly, just that it doesn't change behavior.

Quote:

Fixing that should fix most of the problems you have. Skip the rest until you get that going.


I don't know about that. There still is the issue of a much less than adequite return system, as well as the blower not putting much force on the hot air by the time it hits the vents, but sure, we'll try this first. :)

Quote:

What is yours currently set at? The settings/pointers/needles should have one in a lower range of numbers, and the other in a higher range of numbers.
Your answer here will tell me what is next.



There's actually three settings. (Refer to the picture above to see all three as that picture is very similar to mine). Many years ago I could tell you what they all did, but I've lost that knowledge in the ether without ever having any use for it again.

I just checked it, and the three "needles" are pointed at 100, 130 and 180. (180 seems to be the maximum for the high end. The unit has higher numbers than that, but there is a piece of metal that is there which seems designed to block you from setting it any higher).




Quote:

Regarding your question about booster fan, I don't even have mine mated to the grates. One is within a foot of the output vent which cannot be closed/shut off (there must always be one of these). I leave it on high or medium when I want the house heated up or cooled down, and it cuts that time in half or thirds. The entire house gets temp controlled much better just from that alone. The other booster fan I use is in my bedroom, only used during A/C, and is 1-2 feet from the vent, often on low speed. Works fantastic, making that the coolest room in the house, even though it is on the top floor.


Remember... my vents are on my ceilings. I'm going to have to figure out a way to make the fans do something worthwhile up there if it comes to that. They're not going to do me much good on the floor.

Quote:

Regarding your thermometers, either should work fine. Use both of them in the same spot, and assuming they have the same reading, there is your proof.


Cool.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, December 18, 2018 2:09 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
I didn't realize your blower fan was known to be wonky. I had understood that it was not functioning adequately by your list of symptoms, but didn't know it has never been set correctly to function correctly.


Well... It's not wonky, per se. When the people who lived here before me got foreclosed on, they took a lot of stuff with them. I'm assuming they screwed the furnace up bad when they took out the A/C unit and all the copper right up to the blower. The wiring was bad and the furnace just didn't work at all. I don't remember all the details all these years later and what all I needed to do to get it to work, but it was pretty detailed.

When I say that it's not wonky... That's not to say that it's set up correctly,
Quote:

Fixing that should fix most of the problems you have. Skip the rest until you get that going.

I don't know about that. There still is the issue of a much less than adequite return system, as well as the blower not putting much force on the hot air by the time it hits the vents, but sure, we'll try this first. :)
Quote:

What is yours currently set at? The settings/pointers/needles should have one in a lower range of numbers, and the other in a higher range of numbers.
Your answer here will tell me what is next.


There's actually three settings. (Refer to the picture above to see all three as that picture is very similar to mine). Many years ago I could tell you what they all did, but I've lost that knowledge in the ether without ever having any use for it again.

I just checked it, and the three "needles" are pointed at 100, 130 and 180. (180 seems to be the maximum for the high end. The unit has higher numbers than that, but there is a piece of metal that is there which seems designed to block you from setting it any higher).


Quote:

Regarding your thermometers, either should work fine. Use both of them in the same spot, and assuming they have the same reading, there is your proof.


Cool.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

This is about what I expected.

Before changing your settings, do the following when you feel up to it. No hurry yet, since it is not cold by you.

Prep for the following steps before actually doing them.
1. Wait until the furnace has been off at least 20 minutes. You can force this situation by turning your thermostat down for this time.
2. Force the thermostat to command the furnace on, and check the time. Best to start this at the top of a minute, unless you have a stopwatch. You can force this command by turning the thermostat up 5-10 degrees above current room temp for this test.
3. Quickly scoot up to your furnace, and listen for when your blower fan turns on. Your furnace will have an combustion fan running while it warms up, and then when warmed up should kick on the blower fan. Notate how many minutes elapsed between Command On and blower fan start. While waiting for this, try to find the warmest surface of the furnace and use a thermometer to measure the temp there. This will not be the actual internal temp that we are looking for, but it will be an indicator. Notate what is the highest temp is at the moment the blower fan turns on.
4. Record these numbers for future comparison, repeat the test to confirm if you choose. Return thermostat to normal.

After that, you can change the needle settings.
I would move your lowest needle down to 90. If like the unit in the picture, be sure to hold the dial assembly from turning or twisting while you move needles. Gently using a fine needlenose might help you adjust them if they are sticky.
The second needle can be left at 130 if you choose, or if room could be nudged to 135 or 140.
Leave the high one alone.

This should be much more efficient. Since you now know your furnace is heating your 1st & 2nd floors to the set temps, now you need to wait until colder weather to find out what the energy cost will be. Should be less than last year.


Also, with this news of your blower fan, I had forgotten a prior assumption. I will now suggest you block your return grate in the attic. Just use a plain piece of cardboard, taped to the grate. I had resisted this action because it sounded like your blower fan was old and fragile, but now it sounds just incorrectly set. This will help focus the air movement through the rooms you want heated.
This should cause more air movement in your ductwork. Dust may come out now. Be sure to check your filter again in a week.


What the settings control. Assuming this is according to your picture, so take with a grain of salt. The low number is the warmed-up temp (internal furnace), for your blower fan to turn on. At 100, this means your furnace spent all that fuel and time Warming up (and heating the roof shingles) from about 60ish static to 100 degrees, without distributing to the vents. Now that you bumped the thermostat closer to 70, that is now the static, or starting temp. 90 degrees should be plenty of warm-up differential. For people who keep their house at 80 degrees that setting of 100 would be OK.
The 130 is probably the high range limit, which tells the furnace to stop burning, while the blower starts it's cool-down timer.

So, you spent gobs of energy Warming up the inside of your furnace to 100, but only heating the house until the furnace got to 130. Now the furnace should start distributing quicker to the house. Your elapsed time from Command On to blower fan start should be less after these new settings. The highest temperature measured at the moment of blower fan start could be 10 degrees less.

The 180 is likely the Over Temp Protection, which would likely cause a Fault if the Internal Temp got that high.


Since your temps are already around 70ish on 1st & 2nd floors, now would be a good time to hook up a box fan in the basement and suck that warmed air through your other duct system, and see how well that transfers temps to your basement. You don't need direct furnace air for that. If your ground hasn't frosted, the ground surrounding the basement should try to keep it around 55 degrees. As the frost level drops deeper into the ground, that is when the ambient basement temp can lower.

Putting a box fan on your return grate, on top of that furniture you mentioned, would still be a good idea, until you find out how well this all works.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2018 11:07 PM

BRENDA


And we are back.

Now at 8pm, someone has decided to do their washing. Oh joy. That means that my toilet won't flush now.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:13 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
I didn't realize your blower fan was known to be wonky. I had understood that it was not functioning adequately by your list of symptoms, but didn't know it has never been set correctly to function correctly.


Well... It's not wonky, per se. When the people who lived here before me got foreclosed on, they took a lot of stuff with them. I'm assuming they screwed the furnace up bad when they took out the A/C unit and all the copper right up to the blower. The wiring was bad and the furnace just didn't work at all. I don't remember all the details all these years later and what all I needed to do to get it to work, but it was pretty detailed.

When I say that it's not wonky... That's not to say that it's set up correctly,
Quote:

Fixing that should fix most of the problems you have. Skip the rest until you get that going.

I don't know about that. There still is the issue of a much less than adequite return system, as well as the blower not putting much force on the hot air by the time it hits the vents, but sure, we'll try this first. :)
Quote:

What is yours currently set at? The settings/pointers/needles should have one in a lower range of numbers, and the other in a higher range of numbers.
Your answer here will tell me what is next.


There's actually three settings. (Refer to the picture above to see all three as that picture is very similar to mine). Many years ago I could tell you what they all did, but I've lost that knowledge in the ether without ever having any use for it again.

I just checked it, and the three "needles" are pointed at 100, 130 and 180. (180 seems to be the maximum for the high end. The unit has higher numbers than that, but there is a piece of metal that is there which seems designed to block you from setting it any higher).


Quote:

Regarding your thermometers, either should work fine. Use both of them in the same spot, and assuming they have the same reading, there is your proof.


Cool.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

This is about what I expected.

Before changing your settings, do the following when you feel up to it. No hurry yet, since it is not cold by you.

Prep for the following steps before actually doing them.
1. Wait until the furnace has been off at least 20 minutes. You can force this situation by turning your thermostat down for this time.
2. Force the thermostat to command the furnace on, and check the time. Best to start this at the top of a minute, unless you have a stopwatch. You can force this command by turning the thermostat up 5-10 degrees above current room temp for this test.
3. Quickly scoot up to your furnace, and listen for when your blower fan turns on. Your furnace will have an combustion fan running while it warms up, and then when warmed up should kick on the blower fan. Notate how many minutes elapsed between Command On and blower fan start. While waiting for this, try to find the warmest surface of the furnace and use a thermometer to measure the temp there. This will not be the actual internal temp that we are looking for, but it will be an indicator. Notate what is the highest temp is at the moment the blower fan turns on.
4. Record these numbers for future comparison, repeat the test to confirm if you choose. Return thermostat to normal.

After that, you can change the needle settings.
I would move your lowest needle down to 90. If like the unit in the picture, be sure to hold the dial assembly from turning or twisting while you move needles. Gently using a fine needlenose might help you adjust them if they are sticky.
The second needle can be left at 130 if you choose, or if room could be nudged to 135 or 140.
Leave the high one alone.

This should be much more efficient. Since you now know your furnace is heating your 1st & 2nd floors to the set temps, now you need to wait until colder weather to find out what the energy cost will be. Should be less than last year.


Also, with this news of your blower fan, I had forgotten a prior assumption. I will now suggest you block your return grate in the attic. Just use a plain piece of cardboard, taped to the grate. I had resisted this action because it sounded like your blower fan was old and fragile, but now it sounds just incorrectly set. This will help focus the air movement through the rooms you want heated.
This should cause more air movement in your ductwork. Dust may come out now. Be sure to check your filter again in a week.


What the settings control. Assuming this is according to your picture, so take with a grain of salt. The low number is the warmed-up temp (internal furnace), for your blower fan to turn on. At 100, this means your furnace spent all that fuel and time Warming up (and heating the roof shingles) from about 60ish static to 100 degrees, without distributing to the vents. Now that you bumped the thermostat closer to 70, that is now the static, or starting temp. 90 degrees should be plenty of warm-up differential. For people who keep their house at 80 degrees that setting of 100 would be OK.
The 130 is probably the high range limit, which tells the furnace to stop burning, while the blower starts it's cool-down timer.

So, you spent gobs of energy Warming up the inside of your furnace to 100, but only heating the house until the furnace got to 130. Now the furnace should start distributing quicker to the house. Your elapsed time from Command On to blower fan start should be less after these new settings. The highest temperature measured at the moment of blower fan start could be 10 degrees less.

The 180 is likely the Over Temp Protection, which would likely cause a Fault if the Internal Temp got that high.


Since your temps are already around 70ish on 1st & 2nd floors, now would be a good time to hook up a box fan in the basement and suck that warmed air through your other duct system, and see how well that transfers temps to your basement. You don't need direct furnace air for that. If your ground hasn't frosted, the ground surrounding the basement should try to keep it around 55 degrees. As the frost level drops deeper into the ground, that is when the ambient basement temp can lower.

Putting a box fan on your return grate, on top of that furniture you mentioned, would still be a good idea, until you find out how well this all works.



After you mentioned what the settings did, it triggered some memories, but I thought you might have them reversed... That being said, my particular scenario is even worse than you thought.

The lowest number is the temperature that the fan turns OFF so it doesn't blow cool air. (I have this set to 100 degrees)

The middle number is the temperature that the fan turns ON (I have this set to 130 degrees)

The highest number is indeed the safeguard.


So, what's happening here is that my blower doesn't even start delivering heat until everything is set to 130 degrees. Then, on the low end, it is turning off while the plenum is still at 100 degrees.

Here's where I confirmed my info about what the settings do:

https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Fan_Limit_Switch_Guide.php

According to this, typical factory settings for a limit switch are 90 degrees for OFF and 100 degrees for ON.

What do you think about trying those settings that the website suggested? Do you think that 100 degrees is too cool to start the blower, or does that sound about right?

I'll still leave the emergency limit to the maximum of 180 on my device since the website says the factory typical settings are 200.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:24 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
And we are back.

Now at 8pm, someone has decided to do their washing. Oh joy. That means that my toilet won't flush now.



As sorry as I feel for you Brenda, I have to look at the bright side here and think that you're very lucky that this isn't YOUR house. The electrical and plumbing work sound absolutely abysmal. If that house was going to be sold in one of the south Chicago suburbs I was initially looking into, they couldn't even put it on the market until all of that was brought up to code unless they wanted to sell it at a rock bottom price and list it "as is". In that case, the person or entity who bought it would have additional paperwork from the city added to their loan contract stating they had 90 days to fix it themselves and that nobody could even live in the home until it was completed and verified by a code inspector. Of course, all of the work done would have to be completed by a very high priced licensed and bonded union professional as well.

I know it doesn't really help you out at all, but at least you can be happy knowing that when you can finally get out of there you'll be able to wash your hands of the problem entirely.

This also gives me an idea.

If you really want to stick it to them for what they've put you through, you could probably make it pretty hard for them to sell the house just by being a little savvy about it online and make it known how many problems the house has so when somebody does a search on the address they might stumble on that info and hopefully not be screwed by these idiots that are no doubt going to do whatever they can to cover up the problems until after the contracts are iron clad and the money has been transferred.

I'm not sure how different Canada's laws might be, but I don't believe that buyers in the US have much protection after the fact, and that is why it is HIGHLY suggested that you have a reputable home inspector check everything out before signing anything.

Any home inspector worth his or her salt should be able to warn a potential buyer of these issues, but some people try to save money and skip the inspection altogether. You could be saving some poor young naive couple's livelihood and get the satisfaction of making hell for your landlord in the process. :)


I'd recommend caution how you go about putting this info out, obviously, if you're still living there while they try to sell it though.

If you're ever interested in doing this, let me know when the time comes.

I'm a fan of mischief, and have been known from time to time to be quite good at creating it. ;)

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:22 AM

THG


I told you if you posted or promoted fake or doctored pictures and or videos I would post them here. This video does not reflect a single action but instead the same action is repeated over and over again. Nice work comrade troll...
T




Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It bears repeating



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .





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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
I didn't realize your blower fan was known to be wonky. I had understood that it was not functioning adequately by your list of symptoms, but didn't know it has never been set correctly to function correctly.


Well... It's not wonky, per se. When the people who lived here before me got foreclosed on, they took a lot of stuff with them. I'm assuming they screwed the furnace up bad when they took out the A/C unit and all the copper right up to the blower. The wiring was bad and the furnace just didn't work at all. I don't remember all the details all these years later and what all I needed to do to get it to work, but it was pretty detailed.

When I say that it's not wonky... That's not to say that it's set up correctly,
Quote:

Fixing that should fix most of the problems you have. Skip the rest until you get that going.

I don't know about that. There still is the issue of a much less than adequite return system, as well as the blower not putting much force on the hot air by the time it hits the vents, but sure, we'll try this first. :)
Quote:

What is yours currently set at? The settings/pointers/needles should have one in a lower range of numbers, and the other in a higher range of numbers.
Your answer here will tell me what is next.


There's actually three settings. (Refer to the picture above to see all three as that picture is very similar to mine). Many years ago I could tell you what they all did, but I've lost that knowledge in the ether without ever having any use for it again.

I just checked it, and the three "needles" are pointed at 100, 130 and 180. (180 seems to be the maximum for the high end. The unit has higher numbers than that, but there is a piece of metal that is there which seems designed to block you from setting it any higher).


Quote:

Regarding your thermometers, either should work fine. Use both of them in the same spot, and assuming they have the same reading, there is your proof.


Cool.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

This is about what I expected.

Before changing your settings, do the following when you feel up to it. No hurry yet, since it is not cold by you.

Prep for the following steps before actually doing them.
1. Wait until the furnace has been off at least 20 minutes. You can force this situation by turning your thermostat down for this time.
2. Force the thermostat to command the furnace on, and check the time. Best to start this at the top of a minute, unless you have a stopwatch. You can force this command by turning the thermostat up 5-10 degrees above current room temp for this test.
3. Quickly scoot up to your furnace, and listen for when your blower fan turns on. Your furnace will have an combustion fan running while it warms up, and then when warmed up should kick on the blower fan. Notate how many minutes elapsed between Command On and blower fan start. While waiting for this, try to find the warmest surface of the furnace and use a thermometer to measure the temp there. This will not be the actual internal temp that we are looking for, but it will be an indicator. Notate what is the highest temp is at the moment the blower fan turns on.
4. Record these numbers for future comparison, repeat the test to confirm if you choose. Return thermostat to normal.

After that, you can change the needle settings.
I would move your lowest needle down to 90. If like the unit in the picture, be sure to hold the dial assembly from turning or twisting while you move needles. Gently using a fine needlenose might help you adjust them if they are sticky.
The second needle can be left at 130 if you choose, or if room could be nudged to 135 or 140.
Leave the high one alone.

This should be much more efficient. Since you now know your furnace is heating your 1st & 2nd floors to the set temps, now you need to wait until colder weather to find out what the energy cost will be. Should be less than last year.


Also, with this news of your blower fan, I had forgotten a prior assumption. I will now suggest you block your return grate in the attic. Just use a plain piece of cardboard, taped to the grate. I had resisted this action because it sounded like your blower fan was old and fragile, but now it sounds just incorrectly set. This will help focus the air movement through the rooms you want heated.
This should cause more air movement in your ductwork. Dust may come out now. Be sure to check your filter again in a week.


What the settings control. Assuming this is according to your picture, so take with a grain of salt. The low number is the warmed-up temp (internal furnace), for your blower fan to turn on. At 100, this means your furnace spent all that fuel and time Warming up (and heating the roof shingles) from about 60ish static to 100 degrees, without distributing to the vents. Now that you bumped the thermostat closer to 70, that is now the static, or starting temp. 90 degrees should be plenty of warm-up differential. For people who keep their house at 80 degrees that setting of 100 would be OK.
The 130 is probably the high range limit, which tells the furnace to stop burning, while the blower starts it's cool-down timer.

So, you spent gobs of energy Warming up the inside of your furnace to 100, but only heating the house until the furnace got to 130. Now the furnace should start distributing quicker to the house. Your elapsed time from Command On to blower fan start should be less after these new settings. The highest temperature measured at the moment of blower fan start could be 10 degrees less.

The 180 is likely the Over Temp Protection, which would likely cause a Fault if the Internal Temp got that high.


Since your temps are already around 70ish on 1st & 2nd floors, now would be a good time to hook up a box fan in the basement and suck that warmed air through your other duct system, and see how well that transfers temps to your basement. You don't need direct furnace air for that. If your ground hasn't frosted, the ground surrounding the basement should try to keep it around 55 degrees. As the frost level drops deeper into the ground, that is when the ambient basement temp can lower.

Putting a box fan on your return grate, on top of that furniture you mentioned, would still be a good idea, until you find out how well this all works.



After you mentioned what the settings did, it triggered some memories, but I thought you might have them reversed... That being said, my particular scenario is even worse than you thought.

The lowest number is the temperature that the fan turns OFF so it doesn't blow cool air. (I have this set to 100 degrees)

The middle number is the temperature that the fan turns ON (I have this set to 130 degrees)

The highest number is indeed the safeguard.


So, what's happening here is that my blower doesn't even start delivering heat until everything is set to 130 degrees. Then, on the low end, it is turning off while the plenum is still at 100 degrees.

Here's where I confirmed my info about what the settings do:

https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Fan_Limit_Switch_Guide.php

According to this, typical factory settings for a limit switch are 90 degrees for OFF and 100 degrees for ON.

What do you think about trying those settings that the website suggested? Do you think that 100 degrees is too cool to start the blower, or does that sound about right?

I'll still leave the emergency limit to the maximum of 180 on my device since the website says the factory typical settings are 200.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Those definitions sound more correct. Don't know why that picture shows 125 for the middle pointer.
Most folk are not like you and me, they keep the thermostat much closer to 80. For them the 90 and 100 are fine.
For you, I would say 80 and 90.

Did you time the delay between Command On and blower fan start? This is a real world number, and the rest of this is theoretical troubleshooting.
Think of how much fuel you burned Warming up the furnace and the roof shingles, instead of the house. Most places likely don't care so much, when the furnace is in the basement. But in the attic the heat rises rule didn't help you.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:05 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
And we are back.

Now at 8pm, someone has decided to do their washing. Oh joy. That means that my toilet won't flush now.



As sorry as I feel for you Brenda, I have to look at the bright side here and think that you're very lucky that this isn't YOUR house. The electrical and plumbing work sound absolutely abysmal. If that house was going to be sold in one of the south Chicago suburbs I was initially looking into, they couldn't even put it on the market until all of that was brought up to code unless they wanted to sell it at a rock bottom price and list it "as is". In that case, the person or entity who bought it would have additional paperwork from the city added to their loan contract stating they had 90 days to fix it themselves and that nobody could even live in the home until it was completed and verified by a code inspector. Of course, all of the work done would have to be completed by a very high priced licensed and bonded union professional as well.

I know it doesn't really help you out at all, but at least you can be happy knowing that when you can finally get out of there you'll be able to wash your hands of the problem entirely.

This also gives me an idea.

If you really want to stick it to them for what they've put you through, you could probably make it pretty hard for them to sell the house just by being a little savvy about it online and make it known how many problems the house has so when somebody does a search on the address they might stumble on that info and hopefully not be screwed by these idiots that are no doubt going to do whatever they can to cover up the problems until after the contracts are iron clad and the money has been transferred.

I'm not sure how different Canada's laws might be, but I don't believe that buyers in the US have much protection after the fact, and that is why it is HIGHLY suggested that you have a reputable home inspector check everything out before signing anything.

Any home inspector worth his or her salt should be able to warn a potential buyer of these issues, but some people try to save money and skip the inspection altogether. You could be saving some poor young naive couple's livelihood and get the satisfaction of making hell for your landlord in the process. :)


I'd recommend caution how you go about putting this info out, obviously, if you're still living there while they try to sell it though.

If you're ever interested in doing this, let me know when the time comes.

I'm a fan of mischief, and have been known from time to time to be quite good at creating it. ;)

Do Right, Be Right. :)



If I actually owned the place it wouldn't be in this kind of shape because I wouldn't have been stupid enough to build 2 suites into the place.

I am sure this was a nice little house before they went and did all of this illegal building, which is why the plumbing is going now and the wiring.

The only people I think that would buy this place is a developer and all they would do is pull it all down and then rebuild. That actually has been happening a lot in my city over this year. I can think of 5 spots that's happened in all within walking or busing distance of me.

The only people who know how bad this place is are people that I know and BC Housing.

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:45 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Those definitions sound more correct. Don't know why that picture shows 125 for the middle pointer.
Most folk are not like you and me, they keep the thermostat much closer to 80. For them the 90 and 100 are fine.
For you, I would say 80 and 90.

Did you time the delay between Command On and blower fan start? This is a real world number, and the rest of this is theoretical troubleshooting.
Think of how much fuel you burned Warming up the furnace and the roof shingles, instead of the house. Most places likely don't care so much, when the furnace is in the basement. But in the attic the heat rises rule didn't help you.



I did a little test this morning before I went to bed and the results weren't good at all. (I didn't think that I just randomly picked numbers...)

I put it at 90 and 120 to start, and the results were not good at all. This might be indicative of other problems with the whole system.

The plenum just isn't hot enough at those numbers. The whole process was longer than usual, and once the temperature got to 72 the blower kept going and I was watching the temp at the thermostat go down to 69 in just a few minutes while it was still on, requiring the next process to start much quicker than it would have.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I recall being told of a problem with my heat exchange many years back when I had signed up for a program to have my local gas/electric company "upgrade" my house to make it more energy efficient. This was a program for people who made under poverty level. I was told at first that I'd be getting a new furnace, but when they saw evidence of the prior flooding in the basement they decided they wouldn't be doing anything... replacing the furnace or otherwise.

I appealed that decision, and the guy had to come back out with his boss a few months later. They reversed their decision at that point, but because of the government shutdown said there was no money and they wouldn't be doing anything. After that, I just said "fuck it" and didn't bother trying to have them back. I think I was just being turned down because I was a white male.



Long story short, after reading an article on a bad heat exchange being a cause of CO2 emissions, and then reading about symptoms of prolonged chronic CO2 exposure, I'm beginning to think this would explain a LOT. From my chronic fatigue and joint pain in the winter, up to and even including my depression and excessive drinking.

This furnace might literally be killing me, and is now at the top of the list of things I need to pay for. In the spring I need to make sure the basement is set up with a second sump well on a battery backup and that everything there works so I won't have any flooding, then I need to get a furnace installed.


Here's the article on CO2 emissions: https://www.whippleplumbing.com/low-exposure-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey there 6!

You can pick up CO (carbon monoxide) detectors at your local hardware store for pretty cheap. (Far cheaper than a new furnace.) Here's one example. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Plug-In-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-wit
h-AA-Battery-Backup-21027451/205423758


I got a few for various relatives' homes for x-mas a few years back because they had gas furnaces. (That's the kind of x-mas gift I tend to give. HO HO HO ...)

When it comes to furnaces ... have you looked into ductless heat pumps? They are super efficient as heaters, and then you reverse them and use them as AC in the summer. Here's one example. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/technology

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Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:06 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hey there 6!

You can pick up CO (carbon monoxide) detectors at your local hardware store for pretty cheap. (Far cheaper than a new furnace.) Here's one example. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Plug-In-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-wit
h-AA-Battery-Backup-21027451/205423758


I got a few for various relatives' homes for x-mas a few years back because they had gas furnaces. (That's the kind of x-mas gift I tend to give. HO HO HO ...)

When it comes to furnaces ... have you looked into ductless heat pumps? They are super efficient as heaters, and then you reverse them and use them as AC in the summer. Here's one example. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/technology




Yeah. I thought about that while I was at work tonight. I know I have a CO2 detector somewhere, but for some reason it's not where I installed it in the attic many years ago after I "fixed" the furnace. Who knows? Maybe it actually went off one night and I broke it while I was drinking. I have no other explanation, and I have zero memory of where it could have gone.

It occurs to me that the attic might not be the best place for it anyhow. I can see why I would have thought that was a good idea at the time, but it would probably be better to have it in the living area where the vents are actually putting out the air instead of 3 feet away from the furnace.




Those heaters/coolers look pretty sweet. Any idea how much they run? I'm also curious if I could pick them up and install them myself somehow and save a bundle on labor since it probably shouldn't require all of the code enforcement that traditional furnaces would.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, December 20, 2018 10:50 AM

THG


Originally posted by Sig
This thread is not about Trump's competence. To bring the discussion back to its OP...






-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .




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Thursday, December 20, 2018 10:56 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I always wondered why Hillary gave me a big case of the willies every time she tried to be charming. Now I know why:


HILLARY CLINTON, WARMONGER





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Friday, December 21, 2018 7:32 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Those definitions sound more correct. Don't know why that picture shows 125 for the middle pointer.
Most folk are not like you and me, they keep the thermostat much closer to 80. For them the 90 and 100 are fine.
For you, I would say 80 and 90.

Did you time the delay between Command On and blower fan start? This is a real world number, and the rest of this is theoretical troubleshooting.
Think of how much fuel you burned Warming up the furnace and the roof shingles, instead of the house. Most places likely don't care so much, when the furnace is in the basement. But in the attic the heat rises rule didn't help you.


I did a little test this morning before I went to bed and the results weren't good at all. (I didn't think that I just randomly picked numbers...)

I put it at 90 and 120 to start, and the results were not good at all. This might be indicative of other problems with the whole system.

The plenum just isn't hot enough at those numbers. The whole process was longer than usual, and once the temperature got to 72 the blower kept going and I was watching the temp at the thermostat go down to 69 in just a few minutes while it was still on, requiring the next process to start much quicker than it would have.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

There was a whole pile of information that I was waiting for, but I don't see yet.
If your fan cool down is set at 90 and is still running with output below 70, then one of the fears I had may be true. If somebody twisted that blower fan limit switch instead of moving the pointers, the sensing accuracy may be offset. Visual 90 might be actual 70. Then visual 100 might be actual 80.
I cannot tell you the answers without the information.

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Friday, December 21, 2018 5:13 PM

BRENDA


Massive wind storm blew through my corner of British Columbia. Damage done, a pier in a city called White Rock was destroyed. Someone was on that pier and had to be rescued by helicopter before he wound up in the drink.

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Friday, December 21, 2018 11:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Hey there 6!
You can pick up CO (carbon monoxide) detectors at your local hardware store for pretty cheap. (Far cheaper than a new furnace.) Here's one example. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Plug-In-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-wit
h-AA-Battery-Backup-21027451/205423758

I got a few for various relatives' homes for x-mas a few years back because they had gas furnaces. (That's the kind of x-mas gift I tend to give. HO HO HO ...)
When it comes to furnaces ... have you looked into ductless heat pumps? They are super efficient as heaters, and then you reverse them and use them as AC in the summer. Here's one example. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/technology

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yeah. I thought about that while I was at work tonight. I know I have a CO2 detector somewhere, but for some reason it's not where I installed it in the attic many years ago after I "fixed" the furnace. Who knows? Maybe it actually went off one night and I broke it while I was drinking. I have no other explanation, and I have zero memory of where it could have gone.
It occurs to me that the attic might not be the best place for it anyhow. I can see why I would have thought that was a good idea at the time, but it would probably be better to have it in the living area where the vents are actually putting out the air instead of 3 feet away from the furnace.
Those heaters/coolers look pretty sweet. Any idea how much they run? I'm also curious if I could pick them up and install them myself somehow and save a bundle on labor since it probably shouldn't require all of the code enforcement that traditional furnaces would.
Do Right, Be Right. :)

Hi Jack
Just a quick fyi about the monitors - I got the kind you just plug into a wall socket in any space you live in. I think one has a fair bit of leeway between when the alarms sounds (at a continuous 50ppm) and when CO reaches a dangerous level (at a continuous 70ppm). Placement doesn't look that critical.

From the Kidde website:
"For example, an alarm will sound after three and a half hours of continuous exposure at a level of 50 PPM, yet will sound after eight minutes of continuous exposure at a level of 400 PPM. Levels of carbon monoxide exposure range from low to dangerous, as described in the following list: Low level: 50 PPM and less."

"Most people will not experience any symptoms from prolonged exposure to CO levels of approximately 1 to 70 ppm but some heart patients might experience an increase in chest pain. As CO levels increase and remain above 70 ppm, symptoms become more noticeable and can include headache, fatigue and nausea."


As for the heater/AC units, I think cost depends on how many units, how big, and how complicated. When I looked at them last, a single unit that would handle a fairly large room was around $800.


Hey sorry, I'm being pestered so I need to go do something. Honest to god I can't get one post out without having to get up at least once.


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Saturday, December 22, 2018 5:30 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I interrupt this thread, which many reasonable folk traffic, to suggest reading my post today in the Dow thread.

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Saturday, December 22, 2018 5:33 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I interrupt this thread, which many reasonable folk traffic, to suggest reading my post today in the Dow thread.

tid=61333

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Saturday, December 22, 2018 5:33 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I don't really have much time to reply myself. Probably not for another few days.

All I can say is that there is good news. I got my gas/electric combo bill and it was well under $170 for the month, and it's been warm in my house. I mentioned before I feared it might be as much as $225 and was just hoping it would be under $200.

It's not an efficient system by any stretch, but these are numbers that I can live with. This bill was only about $25 more than last year and the average temp outside this month was 3 degrees cooler than it was at the same time last year.

My bro is here now. My other brother dropped him off the other night and stuck around for a while. They both commented on how it's warmer in my house than it is in his house now.

Until I get a furnace installed in the basement system, I think I'm just going to leave this all as is. I might try some fans for extra airflow, but I don't think I'll be making any other modifications. I honestly never tried having the heat up this high before since I imagined the bills would raise exponentially. Turns out that was all in my head and that it's only going to cost me about a half a night's work per month to keep the temperature comfortable around here. :)


I'll look into a CO2 detection solution to see if I'm poisoning myself too.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:33 PM

BRENDA


Fog rolled in this afternoon and still here.

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Monday, December 24, 2018 12:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Massive wind storm blew through my corner of British Columbia. Damage done, a pier in a city called White Rock was destroyed. Someone was on that pier and had to be rescued by helicopter before he wound up in the drink.

Wow, THAT was dramatic!

We've had high waves here too, 15 ft and more, which is unusual for the So Cal coast. One of the piers at Zuma beach was damaged, since they're not built for waves higher than 15'.

*****

It's been foggy here too. We had three rainstorms come in a few weeks ago and a great start to the rainy season, but nothing much lately. Long term forecast says maybe rain nine or ten days from now. It'll be interesting to see if my long term guesstimate (near-normal rainfall for the season) turns out to be good... or not!

*****

Have been TRYING to clear out "stuff" accumulated over twenty-five years living here, and that's in order to repaint a bunch of rooms. It's been slow going as I've been managing our health insurance transitions when hubby retired, plus his required minimum distributions, and all of the usual household stuff. And for some strange reason have been aching in every joint for the past month ... it's like the "aging clock" went on fast-forward and I turned 90 in five weeks.

But so far have managed to pile up a number of things to give away ... hey, does anyone want wire metal shelving? ... plus a bunch of recycling and SOME stuff to throw out. I just keep chipping way at it as time permits. I hope that some day, after "chipping away" at the mess, I'll look up and think Holy shit! This place looks ...better!

So have been managing with all of the aches and pains ... got the tree up, hobble around with the dog in the morning and doing the best I can.



****

Been following the deep discussions of heater systems ... I learned a lot, thanks guys!

*****

BRENDA, I hope you stay warm.

And to my friends here at FFF.net, I wish you a Merry Christmas. I think of you warmly, and wish all the best for you for the coming year.

Here is an image from my hometown to get us all in the Christmas spirit!



MAY YOU ALL BE HAPPY, HEALTHY, AND PROSPEROUS IN THE COMING NEW YEAR.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, December 24, 2018 1:07 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


That may be the waterfront, but by god it looks like Richlawn!

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