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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
When you get to your sump well, you might have a float with a threaded rod attached, and an upper stop and lower stop. Those control the height difference from start of pump to end of pump. You can add water to make it trip on, look at the water level, or mark that level, and then what the water level is when it stops.

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The next topivs I plan are


Sump/Septic discharge

Sump/septic intake

Sand pit drainage

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

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We are going to be putting an end to that, if I have my way.

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Hey man. I'm all for it.

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Record what the interval was around the time of actual rain, or up to an hour after. That is the time we might compare to when we work out solutions.

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I've got a ton of measurements for the first day. A good deal for the 2nd day, and increasingly less the last two days.

Worst time was around 4 minutes and 45 seconds, which I believe was about an hour after the 3.5" of rain stopped.

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After a few hours of no rain, those intervals are BS that we will fix.

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Sounds great.

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This is not an exact question, but if you tried to route PVC pipe from your wash machine around to your main sewer pipe at the rear of your house, what would be the obstructions, problems? Same for the sump to the main sewer pipe? This is not really the plan, but I'm interested in the path a pipe could take to the rear main pipe.

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If we tried doing any of that, you'd have to crawl under pipes to get to the back "bedroom" down there, and you'd probably have to stand on a bucket and pee over a pipe in the bathroom.

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Also, is there some utility room or closet adjacent to the kitchen?

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
When you get to your sump well, you might have a float with a threaded rod attached, and an upper stop and lower stop. Those control the height difference from start of pump to end of pump. You can add water to make it trip on, look at the water level, or mark that level, and then what the water level is when it stops.

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It's a float with a thread. I hate it. It was an emergency replacement when the Zoeller broke. That had the pump go straight up and down on the side.

I think a problem is that the new one never drains below the inlet pipe from outside. I'm assuming that this is a problem?

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Thanks for helping me understand.

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Thank you for the tips and the interest.

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I wanted to cover the (topic of) grass surface against the basement wall, so you could plan and evaluate before you started digging and tarring, and not need to re-do the digging.

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Sounds good. It won't be tomorrow that I'm doing this. I think I want to get past potential rainy season and wait until at least June. I've still got all that kitchen work to do anyhow. So we've got time to discuss it.

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The next topivs I plan are


Sump/Septic discharge

Sump/septic intake

Sand pit drainage

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Cool bud. Thanks.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

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We are going to be putting an end to that, if I have my way.

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Hey man. I'm all for it.

Quote:

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Record what the interval was around the time of actual rain, or up to an hour after. That is the time we might compare to when we work out solutions.

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I've got a ton of measurements for the first day. A good deal for the 2nd day, and increasingly less the last two days.

Worst time was around 4 minutes and 45 seconds, which I believe was about an hour after the 3.5" of rain stopped.

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After a few hours of no rain, those intervals are BS that we will fix.

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Sounds great.

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This is not an exact question, but if you tried to route PVC pipe from your wash machine around to your main sewer pipe at the rear of your house, what would be the obstructions, problems? Same for the sump to the main sewer pipe? This is not really the plan, but I'm interested in the path a pipe could take to the rear main pipe.

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If we tried doing any of that, you'd have to crawl under pipes to get to the back "bedroom" down there, and you'd probably have to stand on a bucket and pee over a pipe in the bathroom.

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Also, is there some utility room or closet adjacent to the kitchen?

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There is a wall dividing the large livingroom from the kitchen. To the left of the entry door is a coat closet, and when you walk past that and turn into the kitchen there is a larger/deep "pantry" closet, which is behind the stove in the kitchen.

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Originally posted by Brenda:

Went for my bi annual mammogram yesterday afternoon. They twist my neck one way and push me onto the glass plate then move my knees another and move my arms.

They do this each time they take a picture.

Not my idea of fun. I'm a little sore but nothing drastic.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Does your basement have a floor drain with grate/cover?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Is that for both the wash machine and sump pump?
Maybe I wasn't clear. If the pipe was routed along the walls like the current wash-to-sump routing, how would it go? Not straight shot across open spaces.

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I wonder if your front discharge goes out, turns around the corner, under the bricks of the porch and slab of shed, and merges with the main pipe somewhere in the back yard.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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Originally posted by Brenda:

Went for my bi annual mammogram yesterday afternoon. They twist my neck one way and push me onto the glass plate then move my knees another and move my arms.

They do this each time they take a picture.

Not my idea of fun. I'm a little sore but nothing drastic.

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I'm glad that's what that was, and nothing serious!

I have a funny story ... which I may have told before ...

... but one time I want in for mine, the 20's something tech, who was a woman of VERY few words, said, in order: "Put your right arm in." "Take your right arm out." "Put your right arm in."

So of course I began singing " ... and you shake it all about. You do the hokey pokey ..."

Apparently she'd never heard the song. She looked at me like I was some incomprehensible alien.

Anyway, ** I ** thought it was funny!

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If you get a chance, JSF, could you put a checklist of all the measurements you wanted together for me so I can tick them off.

I'll try to go by memory when I do it, but I think those questions spanned multiple posts and since that's the next step it would be good to know exactly what you want so I don't miss anything.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Diameter of well.

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While you are down there, others which may be useful:
height from dirt floor (top of well rim) to where the discharge pipe goes through the wall.
Height from dirt floor to the bottom of the floor joists of the kitchen floor.
If there is space between the floor joists, then the height from the dirt floor to the highest point between the floor joists.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix, to confirm my understanding:
Your basement 15' x 15' room. one wall is back of house, other wall is end of house, shared with kitchen. Are either of these finished walls, or just bare concrete?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Jack, I've been sort-of following along with your discussion.

IIRC, your sump pump leads to a pipe that goes through the cellar wall. That was broken on the outside and dumping water right near your foundation.

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Yes.

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Once you fixed it the water ended up running through an underground pipe that also basically drains into your yard, just not as close to the house ... do I remember right?

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No. That goes out to the whatever sewer it spits out to.

I'd actually like to figure out a way to have a pipe that just goes out of the house so I can attach a hose to it and then rig my system so I can switch from one to the other in case my city sewer ever backs up again and I would have a way of at least getting the water out of my basement instead of panicking until 4:30AM wondering if I'll ever be able to turn it back on before everything floods.

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It seems like rather than have the laundry and shower formally attached to the sanitary system (via pumps if the house sanity pipe is higher than the shower and laundry waste-outlets), a previous owner simply hijacked the sump well to do the work.

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Good 'ole Uncle Bob. That rascal.

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In many places a shower and laundry tubs/ machines are NOT considered 'grey water', they're considered 'black water'. So whoever hijacked the sump for the shower and laundry might not have been doing it to code. In that case, being grandfathered-in would be a very good thing!

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Oh... I'm SURE they would never allow you to do that in new construction here. Too close to Chicago for that to fly.

But talking to neighbors around here, it's actually quite common around here in these old houses. So at least I'm in good company and Uncle Bob did everybody's plumbing back in the 60's.

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But it could contribute to excess surface water downslope of you - which is fine - unless it ponds up and the pond creeps up higher and higher with rainfall.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Alright, I should have mentioned last night that I think I had caught up to completing all of my posts.


Some asides:
Shower drain
If I understand, the shower drain runs from about midway along the back wall (not far from the main crap pipe) all the way to the farthest corner, the sump well under the kitchen corner - all under the concrete floor. This is beyond hijacking, this is a clear plan when pouring the concrete floor.

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Originally posted by Brenda:
Email from my boss. Work for me tomorrow. Little later than usual. Have to be there after 11am.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Alright, I should have mentioned last night that I think I had caught up to completing all of my posts.


Some asides:

Sump "wire" and threaded rod and float(s)
I don't understand when you are talking about these terms. Is your threaded rod vertical? Or something else? You can explain more if you wish - we can correct these things, but it might be a moot point soon.

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Nah. It's a long damn cord with a float attached to it. You can shorten the cord with a clip on the unit by unscrewing it first.

If I were to make the cord longer, the unit would cycle longer and the water would be lower when it finished. But by making it longer it also makes it take longer for the float to activate, and it already waits until the well is almost full to turn on. (As I said in the last post to you, this water was at least 4.5" above the 4" inlet from the french drain as it is).

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Sometimes you don't want to spend a couple bucks, sometimes you want to throw away hundreds.

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I had thought your sump well was concrete, didn't know it was dirt or stone. No need to go digging there right now - after we have a plan, you may wish to investigate the true depth of that. If you installed a couple inch vertical extension of discharge pipe, then you could get that paver out from under the pump. That could be worthwhile, but you don't need to put yourself out right away if you hate it.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
Sump Pump Discharge.

I am going to explain how a normal Sump system works, You might already know some of this, or all of it, but this is to establish a common reference point.
For various reasons, this does not apply to you, but we will work towards some of the solutions I have.


Sump Pump has it's discharge pipe going up to the ceiling of the basement/space, from the bottom of the well. This is often PVC pipe.
This pipe will eventually go outside the wall of the house, and usually above the top of the concrete block, so it is merely going through a hole in the wood wall. This means the upward pipe reaches up into the ceiling, between the floor joists of the floor above. Then it turns horizontal to go out through the wooden wall.
Once outside, the pipe turns down and the discharge water can be directed or not. If not, then some concrete or rock splash surface can get hit by the discharge. At my house, I had to add an elbow and a few feet of straight PVC to get past my the edge of my house.

With this setup, during pumping, the discharge water shoots out of my 1 1/2" pipe about 10 feet horizontally.
When the pump cycle stops, the water that has already reached the peak height of the pipe then drains via gravity out the outside pipe. The water which has not reached the full height of the pipe settles back down via gravity to the bottom of the well.


One of the reasons you cannot do this is because you do not actually have a sump pump, yours is a Septic/Sewage pump. You cannot discharge that outside.

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Do not go off half-cocked with some of the following options and proposals. Evaluate them when you can absorb them all. Think of these as me spitballing - you might use one or more of the ideas, or we can work out others. But think of the concepts and value of what these ideas represent. And our final solution may be much better.
Ways for us to avoid/reroute/eliminate your current problems.
We need to use gravity to let out your discharge water.

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Deep Sink.
There are pretty cheap Deep Sinks I found at Home Depot - I recall about $11, but that may have been some sale price. BTW, I finally conjured why the HD parking lot was packed - remember there was a Levin Surge for Home Depot not succumbing to Stacey Abrams, BLM, Antifags, and the ilk.
Anyway, conjure if you put a deep sink in the back corner of your pantry, next to your kitchen. If you ran the pump discharge pipe up and through the floor in that corner of your pantry, and up to the ceiling of the pantry, then U-turned right back down and into the deep sink, then that deep sink would be able to hold the entire volume of that pump cycle, and then the drain of the deep sink could go via gravity, through the floor again, to mate with your kitchen output/discharge. This would eliminate the pressurized discharge problem beating up your sewer pipes - replaced with simple gravity, which you know your kitchen sink already works with.
Once the pump cycle stops, the gravity will drain the whole volume before the next pump cycle starts again.
Negative: this introduces a Wet Area into your pantry, which you might not want.

Enclosed PVC pipe alternative.
Based upon your measurements, and I want a total of 10" drop from Pump Start to Pump Stop, we can also make an enclosed pipe pressure alleviation setup.
Conjure this: your discharge pipe goes straight up, as high as it can, in between the floor joist beams of the kitchen floor. 2 Elbows turn the pipe first horizontal and then down (this creates the peak height), and then another elbow makes it horizontal again, all of this in between the floor joists. This is all still the same diameter PVC pipe that you already have. Then you have adapters to greatly expand the size of the pipe, for a distance - maybe even a U-turn if you run out of room. At the end of this large pipe, elbow angles down about 45 degrees to the side, then reducers to get back to the original size, and then into your existing join with the kitchen discharge.
This extra sized pipe would have capacity to accept all of the well pump volume, while dissipating all of the pressure, and turning it into gravity flow.
the large pipe could be one of the following: 4" (inside) diam x 46" length, 5" diam x 37" length, 6" diam x 31" length, 7" x 27", or 8" x 23". Extra length is no harm, just have the reducer at a down-slope part of the piping.



I have other options, but how do you feel about the basic concepts of those 2?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Let's see ... biofreeze is a topical agent that provides a skin-generated sensation that might block pain sensations from reaching the spine (like a chemical TENS), but otherwise doesn't address pain (either indirectly as an anti-inflammatory or centrally).

So, because it doesn't really address pain centrally or the causes of pain, taking out biofreeze from the experience with things you tried, currently you're using ---
neck: heat (injury, muscle spasm), mechanical support
shoulder: diclofenac (inflammation), heat (injury, muscle spasm), mechanical support

From earlier it sounds like either the meloxicam (inflammation) or pregabalin (nerve pain) worked well since the 2 of them together were effective. Perhaps try a few doses of meloxicam (as per label or prescription dosing instructions) (since you may have more of those, try them first) to rule out inflammation ...

Shoulders are extremely sensitive to minor tissue swelling since the brachial nerve has such tight clearance. But as I recall you had shoulder pain going down to your hand in the past that was caused by a pinched nerve in your neck. In general, arthritic pain only goes as far as one joint in either direction. So for example when my shoulder arthritis was really bad, I felt it across to the middle of my clavicle and down to my elbow. If your shoulder pain is going past the next over joint in either or both directions, then it's probably not your shoulder.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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THE LOOTING OF UKRAINE
Pepe Escobar

Picture yourself about to meet a girl with kaleidoscope eyes… No. Sorry. Actually picture merry lines of code in the R programming language – wallowing in a happy valley of game theory models which would not preclude Goth or New Romantic Walkyrie dancin’ to the 12-inch version of Bauhaus’s Bela Lugosi is Dead.

Imagine this reverie coming about because of a “pin!” in your inbox. After all you have just been presented with an astonishing piece of intel. You scramble to the exit, actually the entrance of the Magic Theater, where you ask, Keats-style, Was it a dream? Do I wake or sleep?

So what was the dream about? Oh, something so prosaic, so down to the nitty gritty geopolitics: what really happened during the visit of US Secretary of State Tony Blinken to Ukraine.

The great Andrei Martyanov has remarked that Blinken “told Kiev behind the scenes to ‘dial it down’, amidst the fluffy tropes about US concern for Ukraine’s ‘sovereignty’ and ‘security’”.

Well, looks like there was way more than fluffy tropes.

Leaked info on the closed-door meeting between Blinken and Comedian-in-Charge Zelensky is no less than incandescent. Blinken seemed to have read a no holds barred riot act.

Here are the guidelines. All Ukrainian state corporations must be controlled by the proverbial “foreign interests”. So board majorities must be either foreign or 5th columnists. The entire anti-corruption vertical drive must also be foreign-controlled. Same for the judicial system.

Andriy Kobolyev – an American asset – must be reinstated as head of Naftogaz. Zelensky moved mountains to get rid of Kobolyev.

Blinken demanded a massive push against every Ukrainian oligarch, so that huge chunks of Ukrainian economy are transferred to – who else – foreigners. Same for land privatization.

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This is what we did to Russia 1990-2000, but to a much smaller country and on a much smaller scale. Well, when you're a starving parasite,I guess you can't be too choosy.

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Somewhat hilariously, Blinken warned that Russian troops might invade Ukraine. In this case, Zelensky can count only on huge political assistance, not military. So Zelensky in fact was ordered to stop asking to join NATO and cease provoking Russia, as President Putin, who already drew red lines, could make a “drastic decision”.

Blinken demanded that American assets should be untouchable by Ukrainian law, and named honored figures of civil society. Maidan cookie distributor Victoria “F**k the EU” Nuland, also in the room, drew up a list of The Untouchables, and Blinken met with them separately.

Finally, the giant ghost hanging over the whole trip to Kiev had to make itself known. In practice, Zelensky was invited to turn in everyone in Ukraine who helped bring information about Hunter Biden to the media via Rudolph Giuliani.

According to the source who had access to the leak, Zelensky was left beyond speechless. That’s not exactly what he was expecting. Especially when it comes to transferring valuable assets controlled by Ukrainian oligarchs to “foreign interests”. Someone will inevitably whack him.

No one is touching this leak – as if it was radioactive poison. No one will confirm it. Its plausibility though cannot be denied.

Contradicting these powerful, left unnamed “foreign interests” is simply out of the question. They now seem to be guided by a "take the money and run” logic, as in taking over the looting of Ukraine lock, stock and barrel before the whole thing – actually a failed state – blows up.

Pity those oligarchs who thought they were going to loot the land through privatization. Instead the money is on a one way out journey. Follow the money. Follow the dream. http://thesaker.is/pictures-of-a-ukrainian-dream/

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Sheesh!

But WTF is Biden* thinking with these moves? It's not as if looting Ukraine is going to help the US economy. It'd be like a starving elephant swallowing a peanut.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by Brenda:
Email from my boss. Work for me tomorrow. Little later than usual. Have to be there after 11am.

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Is that good news?

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Sometimes you don't want to spend a couple bucks, sometimes you want to throw away hundreds.

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This thing is already 6 or so years old. It's got a ton of "shit" covering it. It cost half as much as the cast iron Zoeller that I had in there before it.

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I saw your pictures. I have no idea what you are talking about "cords" or "wire" and I suspect you don't have a threaded rod, horizontal or vertical.

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What's so difficult to understand? Especially with the pictures. You see what the float looks like.

I looked up the terms. They have "Tethered" float switches, and "Vertical Rod" float switches. Mine now is a "Tethered" float switch. The two I had before it were "Vertical Rod" float switches.

To get the same on/off action you'd get from a Vertical Rod with a Tethered, you'd need a much deeper well. Before I did the emergency fix which required me to get a patio paver to further shim it up another 2 or 3" inches, the old Vertical Rod pumps turned on WAY earlier and didn't let the well get to almost full.

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Do you have a linky to some part number or model number of a pump setup that is similar to what you have? I don't think I've seen a system without adjustments before.

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I don't know what you're asking for. I don't know what you mean by a system without adjustments either.

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From your measurements, it seems your 22 sec of pumping is moving about 2 gallons of volume. When I checked mine, it was around 8 gallons.

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Nope. I just used a volume calculator here: and I get about 8 gallons too.
https://www.sensorsone.com/length-and-diameter-to-volume-calculator/
(18.5" diameter x 7 inches = 8.1455 gallons.)

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With your Pump on switch so high, your laundry water is coming in and then going out to your drainage tile around your house. At least your drainage tile and foundation is getting soapy and clean regularly.

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I think you're missing the point that the well is almost always full and quite high above that inlet and not allowing water from the tile to fall freely into the well. It used to with the old pumps.

Now that I'm learning more about drainage and it's likely there is a perforated pipe outside there somewhere, not only am I putting soap out to it when I wash, but I'm probably putting water out near the foundation too. If that drain tile is just sitting full all the time, it could be leaching water back into the soil around the house. We should make no assumptions on the height of anything here. It might be installed lower than it should be.

And I wouldn't exactly call that pit clean. It's disgusting to touch and everything has about a 2mm "film" on it. I can't imagine the tile looks any better.

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I had thought your sump well was concrete, didn't know it was dirt or stone. No need to go digging there right now - after we have a plan, you may wish to investigate the true depth of that. If you installed a couple inch vertical extension of discharge pipe, then you could get that paver out from under the pump. That could be worthwhile, but you don't need to put yourself out right away if you hate it.

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It is concrete. At least the walls are. Who knows what the bottom is made of or if there even is one. When I first put that pump in, there were stones down there that I put the paver on top of. Now it's covered with sludge.


EDIT: I got a pic from this page here: https://www.triadbasementwaterproofing.com/blog/2016/08/12-signs-its-t
ime-to-replace-your-sump-pump/

See how the inlet pipes are really high up compared to the water level?

If you saw how fast the water pours into the well from the inlet when the pump gets water out down to a few inches below it, I think you'd understand why I feel this thing has to be deep enough to turn off only when it's a few inches below that inlet pipe instead of letting water get to nearly five inches above it before it turns on.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
Sump Pump Discharge.

I am going to explain how a normal Sump system works, You might already know some of this, or all of it, but this is to establish a common reference point.
For various reasons, this does not apply to you, but we will work towards some of the solutions I have.


Sump Pump has it's discharge pipe going up to the ceiling of the basement/space, from the bottom of the well. This is often PVC pipe.
This pipe will eventually go outside the wall of the house, and usually above the top of the concrete block, so it is merely going through a hole in the wood wall. This means the upward pipe reaches up into the ceiling, between the floor joists of the floor above. Then it turns horizontal to go out through the wooden wall.
Once outside, the pipe turns down and the discharge water can be directed or not. If not, then some concrete or rock splash surface can get hit by the discharge. At my house, I had to add an elbow and a few feet of straight PVC to get past my the edge of my house.

With this setup, during pumping, the discharge water shoots out of my 1 1/2" pipe about 10 feet horizontally.
When the pump cycle stops, the water that has already reached the peak height of the pipe then drains via gravity out the outside pipe. The water which has not reached the full height of the pipe settles back down via gravity to the bottom of the well.


One of the reasons you cannot do this is because you do not actually have a sump pump, yours is a Septic/Sewage pump. You cannot discharge that outside.

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Well... Yes and no. The only thing that I have used in the last 10 years since I've been here that isn't water coming from outside is the laundry, and I guaranty that I use it less than any of the previous occupants of the last 40 years did, since the last one was a 3 member family and the occupants before had 7 people.

There's no pee or poop going out there. Right now it's just laundry detergent. At worst, when there is a working shower downstairs that people use you'd add shampoo, soap, dirt and body odor.

I'd still like to figure out a way where I could manually switch it to spit the water out a pipe directly outside with a hose on it in case the city ever floods again. It's better than having no way of getting that water out and just crossing my fingers.

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We do need to pump your discharge to a sewer pipe leaving your house.

Your current problem(s).
Your pump is creating pressure. Water supply plumbing is intended to sustain and endure pressure. That is the water coming in.
Waste water, sewer water piping is not designed or intended to withstand pressure - it is intended to solely endure gravity pressure.
So when your pump discharge is forcing high pressure into your sewer pipes, they are not made to endure that. All around your house, where that kitchen drainage pipe goes, to your back yard to join with your main crap pipe, and then (during flooding) back into your house via the main crap pipe to push your toilet water out - all of that is being subjected to excessive pressure. I have no doubt that all of those seams, joints, etc are "leaking" radically everytime your current pump runs.

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Yeah. Probably right. A lot does go out though. It's easy to see it by pointing a flashlight down the cleanout valve when the pump goes off. I check that regularly to make sure the water always flows toward the street and never comes back to the house. That happened once when the pipe needed to be rodded out many years back, but it's good now. Lots of water goes out to the street every time the pump goes off, so that woudln't account for very much of the issue here right now, IMO.

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This means that your pressure leaks are then filtering back down to your tiling, back into your sump well, and you recycle the whole works all over again - no matter if there is rain or not.
When we remove the pressure element and allow only gravity flow , then we will be able to find out how well your pipes have survived.

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OK

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Do not go off half-cocked with some of the following options and proposals. Evaluate them when you can absorb them all. Think of these as me spitballing - you might use one or more of the ideas, or we can work out others. But think of the concepts and value of what these ideas represent. And our final solution may be much better.
Ways for us to avoid/reroute/eliminate your current problems.
We need to use gravity to let out your discharge water.




Enclosed PVC pipe alternative.
Based upon your measurements, and I want a total of 10" drop from Pump Start to Pump Stop, we can also make an enclosed pipe pressure alleviation setup.
Conjure this: your discharge pipe goes straight up, as high as it can, in between the floor joist beams of the kitchen floor. 2 Elbows turn the pipe first horizontal and then down (this creates the peak height), and then another elbow makes it horizontal again, all of this in between the floor joists. This is all still the same diameter PVC pipe that you already have. Then you have adapters to greatly expand the size of the pipe, for a distance - maybe even a U-turn if you run out of room. At the end of this large pipe, elbow angles down about 45 degrees to the side, then reducers to get back to the original size, and then into your existing join with the kitchen discharge.
This extra sized pipe would have capacity to accept all of the well pump volume, while dissipating all of the pressure, and turning it into gravity flow.
the large pipe could be one of the following: 4" (inside) diam x 46" length, 5" diam x 37" length, 6" diam x 31" length, 7" x 27", or 8" x 23". Extra length is no harm, just have the reducer at a down-slope part of the piping.



I have other options, but how do you feel about the basic concepts of those 2?

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I'd prefer option 2. Too many water issues in levels 0.5, 1.0, 2.5 and 3.0 for me already over the years. For 10 years now levels 1.5 and 2.0 have been dry and I don't want to be the reason that streak ends.


I'd probably need some sort of diagram to put together what you're saying on number two, but I think I get the general concept.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are correct, I used the wrong formula - my bad. I corrected the figures in my post.

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No worries. Glad you concur.

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Alright, Tethered Float. I looked it up, and tried to compare to your pics.
If I understand this correctly, you have described your system as only have a range adjustment, not having a height adjustment.

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Yeah. There's just one screw that secures it at a single height, above the float. Just to reiterate the point, the old pump with the vertical float sees the action on the side, with the low (turn off) point somewhere above the bottom of the float where it would suck in air and the high (turn on) point somewhere before the top of the unit.

So with a cord tethered to the very top of the unit by a screw/clamp, the On/Off action occurs WAY higher than the old pump did. Then I added to that problem by putting a thick cinder block paver underneath to shim it up.

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You must have a common-type cord clamp, secured with a screw, which threads into the top of the casing of your pump housing. Let us call that your tether point, or tether pivot.
How much cord you have between the tether pivot and the float is what determines the range, your range adjustment (currently 7").

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Yes. And this brings up another point...

You mentioned before you wanted my On/Off range at 10". This actually can only be done with a tether float. As far as I can tell, the standard On/Off range for the vertical floats is fixed at 5", although that might not be universal.

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One thing you need is a height adjustment. If equipped, this would be additional screw holes in the side of your pump housing, and you would need to use the screw hole about 5" below the top of the pump, to be your new tether pivot.
If not equipped, you can make a temporary fix by using 2 zip-ties, 1 small and 1 or more large. The large one (or extending more than one together) would go all the way around the pump housing, about 5" down from the top of the casing (unless there is something around there to fasten to).
The second, small zip tie tucks through that large one, and around the cord - add an inch to where the cord is currently cinched.

This should allow your Pump On and Pump Off positions to be much more functionable.

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This is a GREAT idea. I usually come up with things like this, but I hate going down there so much, and I think I have a subconscious block about being down there or doing anything down there. Not only have I done those two horrible freezing water emergency fixes, but I also scorched my lungs once using bleach to clean the visqueen many years back. I didn't know how bad it was until I went out for a break later and a single puff of a cigarette felt like I had just set my lungs on fire. Coffee tasted like bleach for 2 days straight.

I hate that crawl space.

Thanks for that zip tie tip though. That's why I really appreciate the time you're taking here with me on this. I've got to hit up the post office tomorrow morning, so I'll swing by the dollar store and get me some zip ties.

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The more permanent solution would be to make a piece of metal bracket. With a right angle bend, one hole would be made to use the existing or similar screw to fasten the bracket to the top of the pump. The longer part of the bracket would run down the side of the pump, and have drilled and threaded holes every inch or so - which would accept the existing cord clamp and screw - and would be your range adjustments, where the tether pivot would be.

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Well they do say that the average life expectancy of a good sump is around 10 years. It should probably be more for me in ideal situations since it's not even pushing the water up 10 feet, but because of how often it has gone on since it was installed, coupled with the fact that it has a film of indistinguishable crud around it that never used to be there with the old ones, I think it might be time to invest in a new one.

After our discussion I'm not going to run out and buy a new one just yet, especially since a tethered option might be the way to go. But I will be trying the temporary zip tie solution for now and experimenting with it for a while before I research the best new option. It might even be time to get one with a battery backup 2nd unit. Then I wouldn't have to worry about being home to fire up the generator if the power goes out too.

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The other thing to do would be to lower your pump deeper in the well. find the bottom of the well (I don't know if you have a Wet Vac, or maybe use a kitty-poo scooper to dig up the crud at the bottom - use a glove). And remove that paver underneath, and add a piece of PVC to connect the new lower position of the pump discharge to the output drain pipe.

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I've got a wet vac, but I'm not using it on that. I'd rather just get my hands dirty.

I'll be going to my brothers for a few days soon. I probably will work on this part when I get back next week.

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The best point for the high level (Pump On) switch is when the inlet tube is only half covered with water. The bottom level (Pump Off) should be 1-2 inches above where the pump sucks air - you want the pump to never suck air when operating on it's own, without your supervision.

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Okay. Yeah. It turns off around half full and turns on almost 5" above. First thing I will do is fix this and between that and removing all of the roof water in the Bermuda Triangle I will monitor how much better the situation has gotten next time we get a big rain.

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Also, the tether pivot point may need to be moved around the side of the pump, so the float can move freely and not hang up on anything in it's range of motion up and down.

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Oh... I'll be careful about that. I've already gotten that tether caught on the visqueen flap once before I went to visit my brother sometime last fall. By the time I had gotten back the visqueen was a waterbed again. My heart sank, since I thought I'd be doing my 3rd emergency install, but when I went down there I realized right away what had happened. Thanks though.

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eta: Looking at your pic again, is that a ring of screws, about 5 inches below the top of the pump? Can you use one of those to fasten your cord clamp?

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Eeeeeehhh.... I don't think so. That ring looks to me like some sort of seal. There might be a gasket there that I wouldn't want to disturb.

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Even if you just drop the pump to the bottom, lowering it 2-3 inches, and let out the cord another 2", that would help also.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Doing both, lowering the tether pivot, and lowering the height of the pump, would be the best combination - and your existing pump would work fine in this way.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Before I go back to lurking on the sump pump - Jack - I'm confused ... does your sump pump drain to an underground perforated pipe after it exits the external wall? Or to your kitchen sink waste line, where you see it flowing when you open up the clean-out?

It sounds like you've only actually seen the sump pump outlet water flowing past your kitchen sink clean-out. So the underground sump pump pipe the sump water goes to after it exits the basement wall is a mystery, and it might actually be connected to your home 'sanitary' waste line near the kitchen sink?

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I'm only guessing there is a perforated pipe for a french drain, and that's the 4" inlet inside the well. The pump goes into the drain pipe to the street... the same pipe the kitchen sink flows into.

That nub on the bottom center is the drain out of the foundation to the street. Above and to the left (very dark) you can see an angled pipe coming in and that's the kitchen sink. The white PVC coming up from the bottom, hitting the check valve and then going back down to the drain to the street is the sump pump pipe.

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FWIW - most places have 2 sewer systems - a 'sanitary' sewer system, and a 'storm' sewer system. The 'sanitary' sewer system collects water from home utilities and goes to some treatment plant, and then is discharged to some low-lying area. The 'storm' sewer system collects surface 'storm' water and goes directly to some discharge point.

AFAIK there are now no more 'combined' systems in the US, they were all eliminated way back before the 90's.

However, there are still systems where, in an intense storm, the storm water can overflow into the sewage system, and make either - or both - back up combined storm/ sewage water - through storm drains or home utilities like toilets or sinks.

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THat might be what was happening here. There is no reason that my sump in the front should have made my toilet in the rear spill on the floor... unless my sump pump is also emptying out into the waste water and I don't have anything going to the storm sewers.

But then again, it was the storm sewers that were backed up, and that's why the street was flooded.

Maybe my poo goes into the storm sewer too.

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Then there's the 'grey' area you seem to have where it MAY be that some of your 'grey water' as well as your surface (sump pump) water might be being dumped onto your property.

It's expensive I think, but there are services that use both fiber-optics plus electronic signalling devices to monitor location. The fiber-optics are run through the waste pipe to check the condition - looking for roots, cracks, cave-ins etc, as well as branches (inlets and outlets). The locator sends a signal that can be detected above ground, to find out where the end of the fiber-optic cable is, and trace the path of your pipes.

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Sounds outside of my budget. I'm also probably better off not knowing...

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Then there are the unknowns. I had a neighbor who built a garage off the alley on a very, very old property - as old as mine. He wanted to have water facilities in his garage, but when installing the waste lines they discovered that he had no hook-up to the sewer system at all! Unbeknownst to anyone, he had an old septic tank instead.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are correct, I used the wrong formula - my bad. I corrected the figures in my post.

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No worries. Glad you concur.

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Alright, Tethered Float. I looked it up, and tried to compare to your pics.
If I understand this correctly, you have described your system as only have a range adjustment, not having a height adjustment.

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Yeah. There's just one screw that secures it at a single height, above the float. Just to reiterate the point, the old pump with the vertical float sees the action on the side, with the low (turn off) point somewhere above the bottom of the float where it would suck in air and the high (turn on) point somewhere before the top of the unit.

So with a cord tethered to the very top of the unit by a screw/clamp, the On/Off action occurs WAY higher than the old pump did. Then I added to that problem by putting a thick cinder block paver underneath to shim it up.

Quote:

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You must have a common-type cord clamp, secured with a screw, which threads into the top of the casing of your pump housing. Let us call that your tether point, or tether pivot.
How much cord you have between the tether pivot and the float is what determines the range, your range adjustment (currently 7").

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Yes. And this brings up another point...

You mentioned before you wanted my On/Off range at 10". This actually can only be done with a tether float. As far as I can tell, the standard On/Off range for the vertical floats is fixed at 5", although that might not be universal.

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Also, the tether pivot point may need to be moved around the side of the pump, so the float can move freely and not hang up on anything in it's range of motion up and down.

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Oh... I'll be careful about that. I've already gotten that tether caught on the visqueen flap once before I went to visit my brother sometime last fall. By the time I had gotten back the visqueen was a waterbed again. My heart sank, since I thought I'd be doing my 3rd emergency install, but when I went down there I realized right away what had happened. Thanks though.

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eta: Looking at your pic again, is that a ring of screws, about 5 inches below the top of the pump? Can you use one of those to fasten your cord clamp?

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Eeeeeehhh.... I don't think so. That ring looks to me like some sort of seal. There might be a gasket there that I wouldn't want to disturb.

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Even if you just drop the pump to the bottom, lowering it 2-3 inches, and let out the cord another 2", that would help also.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Doing both, lowering the tether pivot, and lowering the height of the pump, would be the best combination - and your existing pump would work fine in this way.

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I had to go to the hardware store to make a few returns and pick up a few other things today, and a 5' length of 1/2" PVC was one of the things I picked up. I thought I had already had one, but it was about 4.5 feet of 2". I had to struggle to remember what that was for, but if memory serves I actually used 2 rubber couplers with a length of PVC in between the drain pipe when I fixed it. Yeah... that is what it was. There was no way I could get a coupler on both ends of the broken pipe, so I had to cut a section out.



I also got 3 4" circular grates for the end of my 3 installed downspout drains. That should keep any curious rodents out.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
A couple ideas I forgot to mention:

tether bias
I didn't know if I had explained the zip tie option well enough, so I didn't include this part. It may be better to, for now, let out another 5" of cord through the cord clamp - and then zip tie that cord 5" down the side pf the pump, the zip tie encirling the pump (unless there is something down there to attach to.) The biggest benefit to this is the downward bias of the float range. the bottom of the range will be very easy for the float to hang straight down (and be a precise depth, not much inconsistency). But when full, the cord will be more resistant to bending upward - thus giving you a range bias toward deeper "Pump Off" level. Because I don't know how stiff your cord is (seems replacement tether floats can be bought separately), it may be a little better to use 2 zip tie points about 4" and 5" from the top of pump, allowing the cord to run 45 degrees diagonally before dropping out of the bottom zip tie. This still makes the drop down float position very easy and reliable, but when the cord is flexing away from the pump it has little danger of extending out to the wall of the well.
And if there is any crap that the float might hang up on, put a thin hard plastic piece on that portion of the pump casing, zip ties around the pump to hold it in place. That plastic: think of those cheap 3-ring binders with flimsy plastic covers. I get those called "shelf liners" or drawer liners, or "disposable cutting boards"

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
condensate pump is what it's called, but it is handy for all kinds of uses, like for you. If your sump malfunctions and overflows, this small pump can send water elsewhere, but sending it to your sump well when it is already overflowing......

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Looks like I edited that post, about your basement window, and you may have missed it. read again.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
condensate pump is what it's called, but it is handy for all kinds of uses, like for you. If your sump malfunctions and overflows, this small pump can send water elsewhere, but sending it to your sump well when it is already overflowing......

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Oh... I thought it was just a beefier dehumidifier. I already have one of those that drains into the well so I don't have to go into the crawl and dump out the water tray every time it fills up. It hardly goes on anymore though. Not after I got that A/C last summer, and it never went off during the months that the heat was on.

Yeah. That's a way better idea than digging a 2nd well and putting a second sump in there.

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Looks like I edited that post, about your basement window, and you may have missed it. read again.

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You mean feeding a hose out there? Yeah.

I'd have to find one long enough though. I could drill a hole in the floor of the cabinet under the kitchen sink and feed it out the kitchen window if I needed to, I suppose...

I'm covering that up with finished work, but it will all be removable. A 24ft hose would work fine then, I'd think.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Hey Brenda - have a good day!

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Could you show me the tube you're talking about, and how you'd attach it to a pump?

It's probably cheaper, and easier to move around and store. It's also probably something I could have an easier time getting it to the length I need instead of overpaying for way too much, or being left short a few feet.



I didn't mean that cutting small pieces of pipe would be a waste. I was saying I'd rather not have to cut long pipes over and over and over again and waste $80 on many lengths of PVC for trial and error.

I like the idea of just using small pieces with the two sleeves.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
A couple ideas I forgot to mention:

tether bias
I didn't know if I had explained the zip tie option well enough, so I didn't include this part. It may be better to, for now, let out another 5" of cord through the cord clamp - and then zip tie that cord 5" down the side pf the pump, the zip tie encirling the pump (unless there is something down there to attach to.) The biggest benefit to this is the downward bias of the float range. the bottom of the range will be very easy for the float to hang straight down (and be a precise depth, not much inconsistency). But when full, the cord will be more resistant to bending upward - thus giving you a range bias toward deeper "Pump Off" level. Because I don't know how stiff your cord is (seems replacement tether floats can be bought separately), it may be a little better to use 2 zip tie points about 4" and 5" from the top of pump, allowing the cord to run 45 degrees diagonally before dropping out of the bottom zip tie. This still makes the drop down float position very easy and reliable, but when the cord is flexing away from the pump it has little danger of extending out to the wall of the well.
And if there is any crap that the float might hang up on, put a thin hard plastic piece on that portion of the pump casing, zip ties around the pump to hold it in place. That plastic: think of those cheap 3-ring binders with flimsy plastic covers. I get those called "shelf liners" or drawer liners, or "disposable cutting boards"

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I'll ask you any questions I have when I'm ready to do it. I think I'll have to print this out and then think about it when I'm down there looking at it.

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splice pipe coupling
Not sure if you were planning to install an entire new piece of 1 1/2" pipe from pump to check valve. But you might be doing that repeatedly until we iron out exactly what all of your solutions are. I was hoping you were just going to splice in a small piece, with 2 sleeves with hose clamps - just like you did on the other side of that wall. Much easier to just swap out different sizes a few times that to perma-glue everything right away. I'm thinking if that pipe repair outside has been able to withstand the beating of high pressure pump surges for the past year, the same sleeve splice above the well should be able to survive a few weeks without excessive leaking.

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Maybe I'll just take the check valve out for now and use the existing sleeves there for the cutoff pipe. Since the kitchen water isn't going into the well and the height of the pvc is so short, what's a tube full of water when I've already got this much to deal with?

Yeah. I don't want to be continually buying new PVC. The price of goods in Biden's* America have gone up. It was $7.00 with tax for the one I bought today.

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crawl space hate - relax
I can understand your repulsion. I personally really do not like fiberglass.
But my thinking was, when you have a choice between cold wet nasty inconvenient irritating disaster when the stores are closed, compared to dry, leisurely pace, relaxed, as time allows, with time to think, consider, plan, and price compare (even order cheap online) - I conjured one of those would be preferable than the other. I would want to be doing it now-ish. Take a flattened cardboard box to lay on, maybe a creeper that you use under your car.

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Yeah... I know. I was supposed to do this last year when we dried up. But it was easy for me to find excuses for other work to keep away from it. But I can't let it go again.

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alternate backup pump
For power outtages, you could have options set up in advance. What if you had a small pump, or manual pump, or bellows pump, siphon pump, Venturi pump, with a small hose already running from the well to wherever to hide your pump, and a handy pail right there, to go dump out when you want. (and maybe have a power wall outlet in a handy spot) If you still want to avoid having that pump in the kitchen area (allowing your little pump discharge hose to run out the window if you choose), then in the basement, on concrete, maybe behind where that missing door would be, between concrete floor basement and dirt floor. Plan in advance, be prepared. Even if we solve all of the problems you think we have now, you already know the situation is not fool=proof, so be ready for the unexpected future event.

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I actually have another sump pump that has been in the box for about 5 years now. My step dad gave it to me as a backup one christmas after I did my 2nd emergency fix. I can't remember the specs, but it's just a cheap Flotec. I think it was $80 at the time.

The hardware store had corrugated 1/2" pipe in 24 ft lengths for like 28 bucks, but unless I cut holes in the wall that's not going to do me any good. I'd have to take some measurements, but maybe if I could find a 50 foot length of the stuff I could have a pump I could drop in the well in an emergency and at least get it out one of the back windows in the livable space. I can't remember what the needed measurements would be.

Last year I bought an expensive heavy duty, 100' length extension cord that I have the female end hung right next to the outlet box and all along the perimeter of the crawl, where I have it wrapped around two heavy duty shelf brackets I installed inverted for that purpose. All I need to do if the power goes out is take it off the brackets, fish it out a window and get it to the garage where the generator is, fire it up, then go back in the crawl and switch from the outlet to the cord.

100 feet was seriously overkill, and that's going all the way inside the garage. When I tested it, I actually wrapped it up the stairs, went through the back porch door and out to the garage and had cord to spare.

If all I needed was to go at an angle to get out the crawl space door and then go straight through the bathroom door, I'm pretty sure that 50 feet would get me way past the foundation of the house and into the yard for this.

I could even do this if the city sewer backed up, but it would probably require removing the good pump to fit it in there. Not ideal. Eventually I'd like to have the option to manually switch from the pipe to the street to one that leads to a pipe above ground that I could attach a hose to and put anywhere outside.

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condensate pump
Your dirt floor basement has thrown me off for awhile, so I've neglected to mention one handy fix for some of your problems. Have you used Condensate pumps? I love using them. On your dirt side, if you hollow out some dirt under the visqueen, and then set the condensate pump down in this hollow, then anytime excess water gets on top of the visqueen, this pump would send it wherever you want - like another tap into the kitchen sewer pipe. The discharge from these is often 3/8" IIRC, and can go the whole length of your house pretty easy. Normally, this is not a desirable solution for those with concrete floors - but you don't have that limitation.

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I've never heard of these before. If I'm just pulling condensation, couldn't I just feed it right into the sump well?

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mesh on pipe openings.
Most of the time I see these hose ends, folk use like a mesh net/filter, about the crosshatch of a tennis racket. You can just cover the end, and zip tie or hose clamp it around the body of the tube. This way, if you accidentally run your mower over it, easy fix.

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Oh... are you talking about the drain pipes on the downspout now? Yeah. That would have been cheaper.

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I have no idea WHERE you got that idea. My range, with threaded rod, has a stroke of at least a foot. I think it might be 15". The only limitations for threaded rod are the total depth of the well, and the length of threaded rod - and that can easily be replaced with longer. The longer strode/duty cycle, the less stress on your pump/motor. Yours is being overworked at this point, without much to show for it.

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Well you're talking about a 3rd type of pump I haven't seen yet then. The vertical pumps I've seen all have a fixed and very small window. Most will say right on the box the window, and I've only ever seen 5".

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Eff the next rain. If you did some of this (float adjustment, much lower than now), like, today, I would expect noticeable results NOW.

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Well... My concern with the next rain is how quickly it's going to fill up the well while I'm trying to work on it (and the pump is out of commission).

We're at about an hour now. If I did this 2 weeks ago I would have been at a full day.

An hour's probably where I'm comfortable with doing it. Sure, I've had a crash course of doing emergency fixes twice, but I have very little plumbing experience outside of that, and it's pretty apparent I didn't do a good job the 2nd time.

I don't think we're getting any big rains upcoming, so maybe it won't ever get below an hour again between cycles before I get it deep enough.

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