REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, September 5, 2024 19:55
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Thursday, August 6, 2020 6:09 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Signy - to your post in a different thread as to how it is that children are less affected by SARS-CoV-2, some posit it's due to a better T-cell response, and some propose it's due to a relative lack of ACE-2 in the elderly, and some say it's due to the frequency at which children get colds. However, children do get infected and do have very high viral loads, so any explanation needs to take that into account.


https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/possible-biological-explana
tions-for-kids-escape-from-covid-19-67273


https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2123/rr

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41385-020-0303-9

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 6:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


posted for future evaluation

This assumes nobody does anything in the interim that's different.
Quote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/06/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/inde
x.html

Model projects nearly 300,000 Americans could die from Covid-19 by December


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Thursday, August 6, 2020 6:43 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



posted for future evaluation

Quote:

August 6, 2020

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/forecasting-us.ht
ml


The ensemble forecast predicts that 175,000 to 190,000 total COVID-19 deaths will be reported by August 29.


This assumes nobody does anything in the interim that's different.

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 6:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
posted for future evaluation

COVID-19 health risk due to pre-existing conditions
grey is lowest, dark brown is highest



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/18/us/coronavirus-underlyi
ng-conditions.html

Looking at CDC per capita deaths, the NYTimes was more or less correct for Mississippi, but missed on W. Virginia (erroneously called it a hot spot), Louisiana (erroneously missed calling it a hot spot), and California (erroneously missed calling it a hot spot). I think the miss on California was because their prediction didn't adequately take obesity into account.

https://www.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/index.html#cases

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 7:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
posted here for future evaluation

'Apocalyptic' coronavirus surges feared in major cities as most populous states hit record numbers
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/inde
x.html



'Apocalyptic' is a poorly defined term. That said, this was particularly focused on California, Texas, and Florida. Between then and now, California and Texas issued statewide masking orders, and nearly all of Florida's counties did the same, along with a majority of Floridian large metros. 'New cases' either briskly stabilized or reversed as soon as the orders came into effect.

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 7:25 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


reposted, not at timetable yet

posted here for future evaluation

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/07/07/200k-us-deaths-corona
virus-model-dr-christopher-murray-sot-tsr-vpx.cnn


a new model has projected that more than 200,000 Americans will die from Covid-19 by November if masks are not universally used


I haven't vetted the article, but I'm posting it here for future evaluation

https://news.yahoo.com/plasma-shot-could-prevent-coronavirus-130023057
.html

A plasma shot could prevent coronavirus. But feds and makers won't act, scientists say

posted 20 0808 for future evaluation
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/06/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.ht
ml

Model projects nearly 300,000 Americans could die from Covid-19 by December





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Thursday, August 6, 2020 9:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KIKI, at 24:17 in the video, you will see the "cases" and "deaths" for Sweden. It's quite a dramatic chart. The "deaths" rise and fall while the "cases" rise, stabilize a bit, then rise dramatically, even as the "deaths" are falling. Then the "cases" fall, just as dramatically, without ever creating an attendant rise in deaths.

It's not due to a "lag" between the cases and deaths, since the cases rise for a full four or five weeks without attendant "deaths" ever going up. If the death rate would have risen, it would have risen during that time.

There may be a few things going on to explain that, and here are the ones that come immediately to mind

1) The newer cases may be due to an (evolutionarily-favored) more infectious but less deadly strain
2) The vulnerable people may have learned to protect themselves from the virus and simply haven't been exposed even as the rest of the population goes along merrily getting infected
3) Sweden may have developed a better protocol for preventing death. (Improbable since if they had found such a successful protocol for preventing deaths I think we would have heard about it by now.)
4) The vulnerable people may have already been "reaped" from the population. (I also find this hard to believe since obviously the dramatic rise in #cases shows there was still a lot of "headroom" for the virus to spread within their population)



Overall, Sweden had a LOT MORE people die than its closest analog, Norway. "Locking down" prevented a lot of death. But maybe the answer is to protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else catch the virus.

There is a downside to that, of course, for the USA. Much of the USA population is obese (40%), and much of the population has diabetes (10%). I realize that these overlap, and also overlap with being elderly, but there are still a lot of people 50 and under who're at risk of developing severe Covid-19. And if you catch Covid-19 and get even "mild" symptoms there is the possibility that you will be left with lifelong disability: heart, lung, or kidney damage. So it's a bit of a roll of the dice with the under-50 crowd as to whether you should just let them get exposed. I guess I would need to know how many people with how many comorbidities are under 50 and what kind of national burden that would pose to have a certain % of them become permanently disabled.

If the USA population was overall healthier, that wouldn't be so much of a risk.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 9:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KIKI, at 24:17 in the video, you will see the "cases" and "deaths" for Sweden. It's quite a dramatic chart. The "deaths" rise and fall while the "cases" rise, stabilize a bit, then rise dramatically, even as the "deaths" are falling. Then the "cases" fall, They do seem to be going up again. just as dramatically, without ever creating an attendant rise in deaths.

New cases are starting to rise again, fwiw, though it'll take some time to see if it's an ongoing trend (due to more indoor time), or a small blip.
Quote:

It's not due to a "lag" between the cases and deaths, since the cases rise for a full four or five weeks without attendant "deaths" ever going up. If the death rate would have risen, it would have risen during that time.

There may be a few things going on to explain that, and here are the ones that come immediately to mind

1) The newer cases may be due to an (evolutionarily-favored) more infectious but less deadly strain
2) The vulnerable people may have learned to protect themselves from the virus and simply haven't been exposed even as the rest of the population goes along merrily getting infected
3) Sweden may have developed a better protocol for preventing death. (Improbable since if they had found such a successful protocol for preventing deaths I think we would have heard about it by now.)
4) The vulnerable people may have already been "reaped" from the population. (I also find this hard to believe since obviously the dramatic rise in #cases shows there was still a lot of "headroom" for the virus to spread within their population)

Overall, Sweden had a LOT MORE people die than its closest analog, Norway. "Locking down" prevented a lot of death. But maybe the answer is to protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else catch the virus.

I wouldn't recommend it because ...
Quote:

There is a downside to that, of course, for the USA. Much of the **USA population** is **obese (40%)**, and much of the population has **diabetes (10%)**. I realize that these overlap, and also overlap with being **elderly**, but there are still a lot of people 50 and under who're at risk of developing severe Covid-19. And if you catch Covid-19 and get even "mild" symptoms there is the possibility that you will be left with lifelong disability: heart, lung, or kidney damage.
... IN ADDITION, aside from the widespread hypertension risk-factor in the US ...
... there doesn't seem to be an easily achievable herd-immunity - at least not that I saw by looking at 91-DIVOC. If there is one, it's not at ~20% previously infected. And there's STILL no evidence that there's long-term immunity.
Quote:

So it's a bit of a roll of the dice with the under-50 crowd as to whether you should just let them get exposed. I guess I would need to know how many people with how many comorbidities are under 50 and what kind of national burden that would pose to have a certain % of them become permanently disabled.

If the USA population was overall healthier, that wouldn't be so much of a risk.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

I'm not willing to give ground to SARS-CoV-2, because there's cheap and easy alternatives - like masking, handwashing, and social distancing.
BTW, I have NEVER been in favor of 'lockdowns' in the past, and I'm not recommending them now, just in case you're misinterpreting my posts.
But imo there are far too many seriously consequential unknowns - like long-term and perhaps ongoing health effects even in 'mild' cases and young people (eg but not limited to ongoing troponin-T in the blood months after the disease appears to have resolved), and the unanswered question of long-term immunity. In addition (assuming long-term immunity is achievable), there are still new 'weapons' like vaccines to develop and deploy, as well as effective treatments waiting to be expanded. Holding as much ground as possible - using cheap and easy tactics - can delay the virus enough to benefit large numbers of people, imo.

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 10:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Everybody is going to get it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, August 6, 2020 10:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The predictions thread
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51008&p=16
Quote:

new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China
Thursday, August 6, 2020 10:15 PM
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Everybody is going to get it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)




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Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As I think about it some more Signy - unless there's a significant portion of the adult population naturally resistant to the virus (Kids don't count! Somebody's got to keep the lights on!) - all we have are delaying tactics until we come up with an answer or answers ourselves.

I'm not sure we should be throwing our fate up to chance, at least not until we've assured ourselves there is literally nothing that we can do, or until we can predict a reasonable outcome.

To reiterate something I suggested earlier, I've been looking at international data to try and see if there's a natural 'break' in either per capita infections or per capita deaths - an upper limit beyond which the data doesn't go. That would suggest to me a biological limit. And so far I haven't seen one. It may exist, but we might not have reached it anywhere yet. Anyway, I don't think we should assume there is one.

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Friday, August 7, 2020 1:16 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
The predictions thread
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51008&p=16
Quote:

new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China
Thursday, August 6, 2020 10:15 PM
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Everybody is going to get it.

Do Right, Be Right. :)








For the record, I made that prediction months before August 6th.

Somebody should dig up exactly when I first said it so when it turns out that I'm right it can't be said that I wasn't saying it long before it became cool.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 7, 2020 3:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




California tops 10,000 coronavirus deaths

California’s death toll underscores how a state that was once hailed as a pandemic success story is now struggling to slow outbreaks.

As of Thursday evening, California had at least 540,339 confirmed cases and 10,006 deaths. Los Angeles County has by far the most deaths in the state, with at least 4,869. On Thursday, the county hit another somber milestone, topping 200,000 total cases.

... a serious breakdown in the electronic collection of coronavirus test data has raised questions about how accurate the numbers are, frustrating health officials. Some public health officials have resorted to counting results by hand, and a growing number of counties have warned the public that statistics provided by the state on infection rates are unreliable. The ongoing technical problems with the electronic system for gathering and analyzing COVID-19 infection rates affect the state's ability to track the spread of the virus and could be resulting in significant undercounts of infections across the state.



https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-08-06/california-tops-10
-000-coronavirus-deaths-in-another-grim-milestone

http://www.hastingstribune.com/news/national/california-tops-10-000-co
ronavirus-deaths/article_e83a4ad3-f1dc-5a38-974f-5bd802aab115.html

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Friday, August 7, 2020 12:14 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I thought the point of all of this WAS to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the medical system. NOT to eradicate the virus or reduce the overall #cases. If that was what Martenson was hoping for, there was a little bit of goalpost-moving going on there!. If flattening the curve was the point then California has done an excellent job of flattening the curve, because it seems to be progressing thru its "first peak" rather slowly.

This is a very important point, and I don't know why it slipped by so many here.

This was the fear of almost all those who opposed Lockdown, that Libtards would automatically move the goalposts, change the criteria, enforce perpetual LockDown - which every Libtard Gov did, in fact, do.

I thought many had predicted this, and when it was proven true, nobody seemed to reflect on that fact.

I did ask a question, somewhere on fff.net - what is the level of Lockdown vs case spread which each person finds acceptable.

Did 6ix completely miss this post?

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Friday, August 7, 2020 1:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
As I think about it some more Signy - unless there's a significant portion of the adult population naturally resistant to the virus (Kids don't count! Somebody's got to keep the lights on!) - all we have are delaying tactics until we come up with an answer or answers ourselves.

I'm not sure we should be throwing our fate up to chance, at least not until we've assured ourselves there is literally nothing that we can do, or until we can predict a reasonable outcome.

To reiterate something I suggested earlier, I've been looking at international data to try and see if there's a natural 'break' in either per capita infections or per capita deaths - an upper limit beyond which the data doesn't go. That would suggest to me a biological limit. And so far I haven't seen one. It may exist, but we might not have reached it anywhere yet. Anyway, I don't think we should assume there is one.

I'm just trying to explain a couple of things to myself:

The discrepancy between "deaths" and "cases" and
The DROP in "deaths" and even in areas that don't have either the willingness or the capacity to control the spread of the virus. Sweden, for me, is still something of a bellweather, since they have better recording and reporting than places like Brazil, Peru, or India.


I can understand "cases" going up without (much) attendant death as younger people go out and party or go to work. The average age of "cases" has dropped significantly; I think its in the mid-30's. But why were there so many elderly/vulnerable deaths at the beginning? Was it because that cohort was preferentially exposed (in "assisted living" facilities) compared to young people? Or was testing so entirely inadequate that it didn't reveal the TRUE scope of the pandemic? And Sweden especially - their cases zooming up (again) even as "deaths" decline. Can it all be explained as "differetnial exposure"? Maybe the vulnerable have learned to self-protect better now? Because they don't seem to be getting sick and dying as often as before, even while presumably many are getting infected around them.

Also, the serological tests may not show the true scope of cumulative exposure and immunity (if immunity occurs along this second pathway as well as along the antibody pathway) so ... still puzzling this out.

Masking definitely works. I, for one, intend to NEVER get Covid-19, even if it burns thru most of the rest of the USA.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, August 7, 2020 1:40 PM

REAVERFAN



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Friday, August 7, 2020 4:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm just trying to explain a couple of things to myself:

The discrepancy between "deaths" and "cases" and
The DROP in "deaths" and even in areas that don't have either the willingness or the capacity to control the spread of the virus. Sweden, for me, is still something of a bellweather, since they have better recording and reporting than places like Brazil, Peru, or India.


I can understand "cases" going up without (much) attendant death as younger people go out and party or go to work. The average age of "cases" has dropped significantly; I think its in the mid-30's. But why were there so many elderly/vulnerable deaths at the beginning? Was it because that cohort was preferentially exposed (in "assisted living" facilities) compared to young people? Or was testing so entirely inadequate that it didn't reveal the TRUE scope of the pandemic? And Sweden especially - their cases zooming up (again) even as "deaths" decline. Can it all be explained as "differetnial exposure"? Maybe the vulnerable have learned to self-protect better now? Because they don't seem to be getting sick and dying as often as before, even while presumably many are getting infected around them.

Also, the serological tests may not show the true scope of cumulative exposure and immunity (if immunity occurs along this second pathway as well as along the antibody pathway) so ... still puzzling this out.

Masking definitely works. I, for one, intend to NEVER get Covid-19, even if it burns thru most of the rest of the USA.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

OK!

I see where you're coming from.

Looking at 91-DIVOC and the top 10 normalized cases, the data coming from the many S American countries and Mexico is really, really scrambled. A few countries have HUGE - up to several factors - square waves inserted at some point which makes interpretation really, really difficult.

That said, Peru, Columbia, Bolivia, the Dominican Rep, and Chile seem to have explicably linked new cases to new deaths, in that as one goes up the other goes up in some fashion, and as one goes down the other goes down. Only Brazil has seen new cases zoom up while new deaths have plateaued, but Brazil erased all its data off of its outward facing website and is known for a fact to be playing games with its numbers.

As to new vs cumulative, it's always possible that the virus has flash-burned its way through the cities and is now smouldering its way through the countryside. For the purposes of trying to find a natural limit, I think cumulative measures are best.

Anyway, I really need to get going on some errands right now. Let me know what you make of my thinking.

I haven't touched Sweden yet.

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Friday, August 7, 2020 4:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I thought the point of all of this WAS to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the medical system. NOT to eradicate the virus or reduce the overall #cases. If that was what Martenson was hoping for, there was a little bit of goalpost-moving going on there!. If flattening the curve was the point then California has done an excellent job of flattening the curve, because it seems to be progressing thru its "first peak" rather slowly.

This is a very important point, and I don't know why it slipped by so many here.

This was the fear of almost all those who opposed Lockdown, that Libtards would automatically move the goalposts, change the criteria, enforce perpetual LockDown - which every Libtard Gov did, in fact, do.

I thought many had predicted this, and when it was proven true, nobody seemed to reflect on that fact.



I did. And I did.



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, August 7, 2020 7:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SIGNYM: Well, I thought the point of all of this WAS to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the medical system. NOT to eradicate the virus or reduce the overall #cases. If that was what Martenson was hoping for, there was a little bit of goalpost-moving going on there!. If flattening the curve was the point then California has done an excellent job of flattening the curve, because it seems to be progressing thru its "first peak" rather slowly.


JSF: This is a very important point, and I don't know why it slipped by so many here.

This was the fear of almost all those who opposed Lockdown, that Libtards would automatically move the goalposts, change the criteria, enforce perpetual LockDown - which every Libtard Gov did, in fact, do.

I thought many had predicted this, and when it was proven true, nobody seemed to reflect on that fact.

SIX: I did. And I did.

Well, first of all, it's not JUST "libtard" governments imposing lockdowns, it's also places like China, Russia, and India. You can hardly call them "libtard". China seems intent on eradicating the virus.

IMHO the purpose of a "lockdown" was only to act as a circuit-breaker on a uncontrolled situation, and it should only be temporary. The problem is when you don't have a Step #2 for afterwards. Using lockdowns, and ONLY lockdowns, to attempt to slow or eradicate the virus is a fool's errand because the virus is so transmissible that it will pop up again the moment you lift your foot off the brakes. Just look at Australia: Everyone was saying how well they did, until lately.

You CAN eradicate the virus. But you need an isolated population: Nobody in or out.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Friday, August 7, 2020 8:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Signy, as for Sweden there's a lot of things I can imagine going on, but it would take a lot of digging out.

About half of deaths came from elder care homes.
Quote:

One of the things Tegnell has admitted to is that "too many died".

"Dr Tegnell, who is Sweden's state epidemiologist and in charge of the country's response to Covid-19, told BBC News in April that the high death toll was mainly because homes for the elderly had been unable to keep the disease out, although he emphasised that "does not disqualify our strategy as a whole" ... While Sweden's approach had been to increase its response step by step, other countries had imposed immediate lockdowns and gradually reopened, he said."

Quote:

About half of Sweden's 5,730 deaths occurred among those in elder care homes.
One of the things I recall reading is that Sweden's changed its policy regarding elder care homes - requiring strict limits on visitors, frequent testing and contact tracing, and (perhaps) requiring paid days off for ill staff members. (Sweden, like the US, pays minimal wages with minimal or no benefits for care-home workers, who HAVE too keep working ill or not. That was admitted as a problem, whether they completely addressed that or not I don't know.)

Sweden has many intrinsic factors that make it unlike other countries.
Sweden didn't institute lockdowns but did institute widespread measures.

Quote:

While Sweden didn't officially lock down, many in the country have described a locked-down "feeling" that has eased in the summer months.
At the start of the outbreak, only high schools and universities closed; daycare and elementary schools have been open. Businesses have also remained open, but typically at reduced hours, and restaurants have functioned at reduced capacity.
Swedes have been asked to keep their distance in public, refrain from non-essential travel, and work from home when possible. Gatherings of more than 50 people are also banned. People age 70 and over are advised to stay away from others as much as possible.

In addition, Sweden isn't like the US (and a lot of other countries). 30% of workers already work from home, and most households are single-person. (I'd have to go back to check my previous past to get the additional differences.) So its transmission modes and sub-population risks are different from the US (and a lot of other countries).

And people changed their behavior.
Quote:

"During the months of March to early June, all shops were practically empty, people stopped dining with friends, and families stopped seeing even their closest relatives," Furberg told MedPage Today. "A lock-down could not have been more effective. Handwashing, excessive use of hand sanitizers, and staying home at the first sign of a cold became the new normal very quickly."

"Individuals are also taking personal hygiene more seriously, as items like hand sanitizers and single-use gloves are often sold out in pharmacies and grocery stores."

In addition, even more businesses allowed people to work from home.

Sweden may NOT have new cases under control.

Quote:

As in large parts of the rest of Europe, Sweden now sees that the number of reported cases is increasing somewhat. The agency said it was "still unclear" as for why the curve turns up again, but said what's clear was that young adults aged 20-29 accounted for a large part of the increase.

Tegnell said although the group is less likely to suffer from a severe coronary infection, the development is worrying. "There is a clear risk that it will start to spread from that group to other groups that will become significantly sicker. We must all bare bear that in mind."

Quote:

However, the Nordic nation is seeing “an increasing share of cases in the age group 20-29 years,” Tegnell told reporters in Stockholm on Thursday, “and that’s a bad sign.”

“Many see themselves as immortal in this age group,” Tegnell said, adding “there is absolutely a risk of spreading from that group to others.”




So what I can imagine is this: The first wave of deaths came from elder care homes and I imagine additional deaths came from the vulnerable. After that shock, and much well-deserved scathing international criticism, policies were changed to address that.

Sweden underwent a significant response. That and its natural structural advantages allowed it to flatten and even slightly reverse the 'new cases' numbers.

But then it got to be summer ... and people relaxed. Yanno kind of like SoCal, people started going back to restaurants and bars and having parties to socialize, which caused infections to burn through that (mostly) self-selected part of the population exposed through those conditions. That sounds a lot to me like young people, even though I don't have age statistics on Sweden so I couldn't say for sure.

And Sweden's story isn't over yet.

As for the rest of Sweden's story ... to be continued. Once the weather turns and people start moving back indoors, another set of conditions will emerge, and maybe another set of risks.

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Friday, August 7, 2020 11:03 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SIGNYM: Well, I thought the point of all of this WAS to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the medical system. NOT to eradicate the virus or reduce the overall #cases. If that was what Martenson was hoping for, there was a little bit of goalpost-moving going on there!. If flattening the curve was the point then California has done an excellent job of flattening the curve, because it seems to be progressing thru its "first peak" rather slowly.


JSF: This is a very important point, and I don't know why it slipped by so many here.

This was the fear of almost all those who opposed Lockdown, that Libtards would automatically move the goalposts, change the criteria, enforce perpetual LockDown - which every Libtard Gov did, in fact, do.

I thought many had predicted this, and when it was proven true, nobody seemed to reflect on that fact.

SIX: I did. And I did.

Well, first of all, it's not JUST "libtard" governments imposing lockdowns, it's also places like China, Russia, and India. You can hardly call them "libtard".



I don't think that's true in 2020.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 10:11 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, first of all, it's not JUST "libtard" governments imposing lockdowns, it's also places like China, Russia, and India. You can hardly call them "libtard".



I don't think that's true in 2020.



http://archive.vn/l4RJD

Quote:

Los Angeles Coronavirus Update: Mayor Eric Garcetti Says DWP Will Shut Off Water And Power At Homes That Throw Large Parties






Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:11 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
As I think about it some more Signy - unless there's a significant portion of the adult population naturally resistant to the virus (Kids don't count! Somebody's got to keep the lights on!) - all we have are delaying tactics until we come up with an answer or answers ourselves.

I'm not sure we should be throwing our fate up to chance, at least not until we've assured ourselves there is literally nothing that we can do, or until we can predict a reasonable outcome.

To reiterate something I suggested earlier, I've been looking at international data to try and see if there's a natural 'break' in either per capita infections or per capita deaths - an upper limit beyond which the data doesn't go. That would suggest to me a biological limit. And so far I haven't seen one. It may exist, but we might not have reached it anywhere yet. Anyway, I don't think we should assume there is one.

I'm just trying to explain a couple of things to myself:

The discrepancy between "deaths" and "cases" and
The DROP in "deaths" and even in areas that don't have either the willingness or the capacity to control the spread of the virus. Sweden, for me, is still something of a bellweather, since they have better recording and reporting than places like Brazil, Peru, or India.


I can understand "cases" going up without (much) attendant death as younger people go out and party or go to work. The average age of "cases" has dropped significantly; I think its in the mid-30's. But why were there so many elderly/vulnerable deaths at the beginning? Was it because that cohort was preferentially exposed (in "assisted living" facilities) compared to young people? Or was testing so entirely inadequate that it didn't reveal the TRUE scope of the pandemic? And Sweden especially - their cases zooming up (again) even as "deaths" decline. Can it all be explained as "differetnial exposure"? Maybe the vulnerable have learned to self-protect better now? Because they don't seem to be getting sick and dying as often as before, even while presumably many are getting infected around them.

Also, the serological tests may not show the true scope of cumulative exposure and immunity (if immunity occurs along this second pathway as well as along the antibody pathway) so ... still puzzling this out.

Masking definitely works. I, for one, intend to NEVER get Covid-19, even if it burns thru most of the rest of the USA.

I had noticed that the early detected cases were mostly older population, like 60+. This resulted in larger rates of death. Later more widespread testing did show more cases in the younger ages, like 20-60 (such that the bar graphs almost equalled out, for age ranges of cases), but these did not result in as many deaths (bar chargts still stayed heavily weighted towards older).
Likely due to early limited testing was focused on the more likely cases, which were symptomatic and hospitalized elderly. Limited testing was not expended upon younger asymptomatic cases, which were left undetected.

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


^ Something I've been saying since day one.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Of course neither of you can provide a single link or quote to back up what you claim.

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 1:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

SIGNYM: Well, I thought the point of all of this WAS to "flatten the curve" to not overwhelm the medical system. NOT to eradicate the virus or reduce the overall #cases. If that was what Martenson was hoping for, there was a little bit of goalpost-moving going on there!. If flattening the curve was the point then California has done an excellent job of flattening the curve, because it seems to be progressing thru its "first peak" rather slowly.

JSF: This is a very important point, and I don't know why it slipped by so many here.
This was the fear of almost all those who opposed Lockdown, that Libtards would automatically move the goalposts, change the criteria, enforce perpetual LockDown - which every Libtard Gov did, in fact, do.
I thought many had predicted this, and when it was proven true, nobody seemed to reflect on that fact.

SIX: I did. And I did.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM: Well, first of all, it's not JUST "libtard" governments imposing lockdowns, it's also places like China, Russia, and India. You can hardly call them "libtard".

Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

I don't think that's true in 2020.

< http://archive.vn/l4RJD

Los Angeles Coronavirus Update: Mayor Eric Garcetti Says DWP Will Shut Off Water And Power At Homes That Throw Large Parties>

Do Right, Be Right. :)

And once gain JACK completely misses the point and posts irrelevancy.

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 2:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I got the point.

In order to protect scared people, we're going to shut off water and electricity during the peak of the summer heat in California and make a lesson of anybody who doesn't abide our tyranny.

Loud and clear.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 3:31 PM

REAVERFAN

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 5:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I got the point.

In order to protect scared people, we're going to shut off water and electricity during the peak of the summer heat in California and make a lesson of anybody who doesn't abide our tyranny.

Loud and clear.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Just like all those libtard governments like China, Russia, and India who are so solicitous of the scared feelings of their citizens - right JACK?

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 7:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I got the point.

In order to protect scared people, we're going to shut off water and electricity during the peak of the summer heat in California and make a lesson of anybody who doesn't abide our tyranny.

Loud and clear.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Just like all those libtard governments like China, Russia, and India who are so solicitous of the scared feelings of their citizens - right JACK?



Not too dissimilar.

Emergencies have always been the pretext to which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded. ~Friedrich Hayek

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, August 8, 2020 9:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, those libtard governments like in China, Russia, and India don't seem to need an excuse to remove liberties.

So why are THEY responding to this crisis?

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:53 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Well, those libtard governments like in China, Russia, and India don't seem to need an excuse to remove liberties.

So why are THEY responding to this crisis?



Why do you assume that keeping scared people safe and totalitarianism need to be mutually exclusive?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 2:16 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Why would a libtard government like in China, Russia, and India cater to the fears of their populations?

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 3:31 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


How the fuck should I know. I don't live there. Thank God.

I only can speak for how our Libtard government is instilling fear in the population and using that to take away personal freedoms.

Thankfully a lot of that is left to the states, and we're not all being enslaved like you are in Commiefornia.

If ever there were an extremely valid argument for the Electoral College, not allowing YOUR state to make decisions for the rest of the country especially during a "pandemic" would be it.


How many people have you turned in so far this month?



Emergencies have always been the pretext to which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded. ~Friedrich Hayek

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 4:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

SIX: How many people have you turned in so far this month?
Please don't feed the troll

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 4:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
How the fuck should I know.




You tell me. You seem to think that the libtard governments in the US aren't too dissimilar to the libtard governments of China, Russia, and India who are so solicitous of the scared feelings of their citizens.
Quote:

Not too dissimilar.
Then you claim that those libtard governments in China, Russia, and India, who really don't seem to need an excuse to remove liberties, are acting out of concern for their peoples' frights.
Quote:

Why do you assume that keeping scared people safe and totalitarianism need to be mutually exclusive?
You seem to know all ABOUT those libtard governments in China, Russia, and India!

But when asked directly "Why would a libtard government like in China, Russia, and India cater to the fears of their populations?", all of the sudden you find yourself backed into the corner of your own illogic and you don't know!

And then, JACKAREN - like ALWAYS - when your own buffoonery has betrayed you, you get personal.
Quote:

How many people have you turned in so far this month?


I apologize to everyone for starting a thread to keep up with facts about SARS-COV-2, and driving JACK over the edge with too much reality.

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 4:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, I'm still trying to resolve the huge discrepancy between "deaths" and "cases", especially since the curves wind up going in opposite directions.

I can understand that both societies and individuals react to the presence of the virus, and the remaining population who perceives that they might be at risk would self-protect much better than the poor souls in "care" homes who had to rely on institutional response, so at this point there are probably at least two very distinct populations AFA exposure: those who self-protect, and those who don't.

But at the beginning, nobody knew the virus was circulating, so they went on cruises and traveled internationally and went to sporting events and work and the gym. I can't see why vulnerable elderly in care homes would be exposed to the virus in SUCH far greater proportions than the rest of the population. True, they're in a mass situation and cared for by low-wage workers who HAVE to work, sick or not. OTOH they're not out working, partying, demonstrating, attending church or sporting events, like others were at the start of the pandemic.

All I can figure is that the true infection rate at the very beginning of the pandemic in each nation must have been much MUCH greater than what was detected. There may be a way to back-calculate what it might have been from the death rate itself, and known infection fatality rate. Just to give you an example: Sweden. If half of the people who died were the elderly sick, I can make a guess that the infection fatality rate for that cohort was (being generous) 10%. SO multiply those deaths by 10. The remainder of deaths were in a cohort whose infection fatality rate may have been 1% (again, being generous), so take THOSE deaths and multiply by 100. Add the two estimated infection values to get an estimated infection rate. Now, instead of an infection rate that's 50X or 80X the death rate, you get an infection rate over 100X the death rate.

If you look instead at the "excess deaths" you might multiply that estimated infection rate by 2X again, since Covid-19 deaths may have been undercounted by 50-60%, so the REAL infection rate might have been 200X the death rate.

If the serological tests showing cumulative infection can account for the infections estimated from deaths, then there's no mystery about what happened. But if the serological tests undercount the infections estimated from deaths, then there is another immunity mechanism going on not revealed by the serological tests, or the antibodies fade too quickly to be a good measure of population immunity.

I would love to try this with real numbers. Unfortunately, I'm still pretty busy and likely to be so for the foreseeable future, but I hope to get back to this on the next few weeks.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

]Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, I'm still trying to resolve the huge discrepancy between "deaths" and "cases", especially since the curves wind up going in opposite directions.

I can understand that both societies and individuals react to the presence of the virus, and the remaining population who perceives that they might be at risk would self-protect much better than the poor souls in "care" homes who had to rely on institutional response, so at this point there are probably at least two very distinct populations AFA exposure: those who self-protect, and those who don't.

But at the beginning, nobody knew the virus was circulating, so they went on cruises and traveled internationally and went to sporting events and work and the gym. I can't see why vulnerable elderly in care homes would be exposed to the virus in SUCH far greater proportions than the rest of the population. True, they're in a mass situation and cared for by low-wage workers who HAVE to work, sick or not. OTOH they're not out working, partying, demonstrating, attending church or sporting events, like others were at the start of the pandemic.

All I can figure is that the true infection rate at the very beginning of the pandemic in each nation must have been much MUCH greater than what was detected. There may be a way to back-calculate what it might have been from the death rate itself, and known infection fatality rate. Just to give you an example: Sweden. If half of the people who died were the elderly sick, I can make a guess that the infection fatality rate for that cohort was (being generous) 10%. SO multiply those deaths by 10. The remainder of deaths were in a cohort whose infection fatality rate may have been 1% (again, being generous), so take THOSE deaths and multiply by 100. Add the two estimated infection values to get an estimated infection rate. Now, instead of an infection rate that's 50X or 80X the death rate, you get an infection rate over 100X the death rate.

If you look instead at the "excess deaths" you might multiply that estimated infection rate by 2X again, since Covid-19 deaths may have been undercounted by 50-60%, so the REAL infection rate might have been 200X the death rate.

If the serological tests showing cumulative infection can account for the infections estimated from deaths, then there's no mystery about what happened. But if the serological tests undercount the infections estimated from deaths, then there is another immunity mechanism going on not revealed by the serological tests, or the antibodies fade too quickly to be a good measure of population immunity.

I would love to try this with real numbers. Unfortunately, I'm still pretty busy and likely to be so for the foreseeable future, but I hope to get back to this on the next few weeks.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

I've been puzzling over the same thing. But some of it seems pure chance.

There are many many opportunities for a cruiseship superspreading event, but only 1 Diamond Princess. There are many many states with COVID-19 outbreaks but only 1 Washington State where the signal event was in nursing homes (probably due to a superspreader working at multiple homes to kick it off.) It takes a superspreader to be in the right place at the right time.

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

You tell me. You seem to think that the libtard governments in the US aren't too dissimilar to the libtard governments of China, Russia, and India who are so solicitous of the scared feelings of their citizens.



There we go. I just had to get you to word that properly.

No. Not solicitous. Not by a longshot.

Feeding the fear? Yes. Feeding the paranoia? Absolutely.


Taking advantage of a situation they created?

Yes.


California is exactly like Russia, China and India in that regard.


None of them actually give a fuck about the people. And the "sacred feelings" of their citizens are just a tool that they use to control them.

Even scarier is how they once they've accomplished that they don't even have to do any of the work themselves and can rely on a large enough portion of the population to do the policing for them pro gratis.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The test for "how many cases is SARS-Cov2 testing revealing" is the positivity rate. Apparently there are statistics in use that indicate whether testing is revealing the true infection rate, and that is the positivity rate. I have heard one point referenced: a positivity rate of less than 5% indicates that most infections are being captured. I don't know if they have more points that indicate how many more infections "out there" for different positivity rates.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 9:09 PM

REAVERFAN



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Sunday, August 9, 2020 9:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Not going to wear a mask, faggot.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 10:24 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Are you, or are you not in favor of Eric Garcetti turning off power and water service to houses that don't comply with the lockdown orders Kiki?



Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 11:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey Signy, thanks for bringing that here. I try to look for new, relevant, pivotal information, but it seems like no matter how diligent I am, you bring stuff I haven't seen!

The 5% limit might just be a sheer statistical rule of thumb, and btw I haven't even thought about it enough to decide if one should use a 1-tailed or 2-tailed curve. But 5% is some SD on a bell curve. I guess they're assuming a random sample with very large numbers.


positivity rates

On May 12, 2020 the World Health Organization (WHO) advised governments that before reopening, rates of positivity in testing (ie, out of all tests conducted, how many came back positive for COVID-19) of should remain at 5% or lower for at least 14 days.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/testing-positivity

State

Percentage of
Positive Tests
Vermont 0.51%
Maine 0.53%
Connecticut 0.72%
New York 0.97%
New Jersey 1.54%
Alaska 1.56%
New Hampshire 1.99%
District of Columbia 2.29%
Michigan 2.45%
New Mexico 2.49%
Massachusetts 2.63%
West Virginia 2.70%
Illinois 4.17%
Montana 4.67%
Delaware 4.81%



State

Percentage of
Positive Tests
Puerto Rico 100.00%
Mississippi 21.06%
Texas 19.25%
Florida 17.47%
Alabama 17.34%
Nevada 16.35%
Washington 15.21%
Idaho 15.17%
Arizona 13.42%
South Carolina 13.38%
Arkansas 13.17%
Kansas 11.77%
Georgia 11.60%
Missouri 10.93%
Iowa 9.56%
Oklahoma 9.49%
Utah 9.21%
Indiana 8.82%
Virginia 8.77%
Tennessee 8.69%
South Dakota 8.65%
Nebraska 8.50%
North Dakota 8.10%
Oregon 7.71%
Louisiana 7.66%
Kentucky 7.45%
Wyoming 7.40%
Colorado 6.74%
Minnesota 6.54%
Wisconsin 6.34%
Hawaii 6.28%
Rhode Island 5.99%
North Carolina 5.94%
Maryland 5.78%
California 5.56%
Ohio 5.20%
Pennsylvania 5.12%

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Sunday, August 9, 2020 11:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


DOOOOOD. The city ALREADY has that authority. It gets used against abandoned properties where squatters congregate, drug houses, party/booze houses, illegal rentals that are jam-packed with people, etc all the time. It's called CODE ENFORCEMENT. You may have heard of it. If conditions threaten health or safety the city can take action (after appropriately notifying the owners and indicating what needs to be addressed, of course).
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Are you, or are you not in favor of Eric Garcetti turning off power and water service to houses that don't comply with the lockdown orders Kiki?



Do Right, Be Right. :)


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Monday, August 10, 2020 2:47 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Wow.

You're going to equate tax paying people who pay all of their bills on time to crack dens and abandoned properties because your panic level is that high.

Says everything we need to know about you.

Thank you for your answer.


I have had my suspicions for a while, but now I know exactly who I'm talking to.


You're more dangerous to this country than Second's alter-ego Marcos.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, August 10, 2020 2:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


NOPE.

Houses that ROUTINELY hold large noisy parties -- where the police are repeatedly called out - are also subject. (What? You think the police and code enforcement don't keep track?) As are houses that turn private residences into public events.


BTW - these aren't quiet people in ordinary suburban homes having family picnics, celebrating the 4th of July, or hosting quinceaneras.

They're multi-million dollar mansions - sometimes even with marinas attached - that ROUTINELY host parties where 50-400+ people show up for an extended booze and drug bash, and where someone often ends up being shot. Because it's Hollywood, not podunk Indiana.

And I'm going to reiterate that just because it's a more expensive version of a crack house doesn't mean that it doesn't count. Code Enforcement has every legal authority to shut down locations that are a threat to the safety and health of the area. They can even shut down places that are a merely nuisance and generate repeated noise complaints.

This is nothing new.

Btw, here are three examples of mass events in the Hollywood area that ended up with shootings in the span of 23 days:

Three shot, 1 dead at mansion party on Los Angeles' Mulholland Drive
YAHOO!|6 days ago
Prior to the shooting, a NBC Los Angeles helicopter captured video of partygoers, a long line of cars in the driveway, and a party bus dropping guests at the event.

Texas Man Charged in Shooting Death of Girl at Hollywood Street Race
NBC Los Angeles|12 days ago
A Texas man was charged Tuesday with killing a teenage girl and injuring an innocent bystander when a fight that erupted following an illegal Hollywood street race ended in gunfire. Ramon Roque Monreal,

Rapper Megan Thee Stallion Says She Was Shot at Hollywood Party
NBC New York|26 days ago
Rapper Megan Thee Stallion said she was recovering from being shot over the weekend, contradicting reports that she was cut by glass after a Hollywood party. The 25-year-old rapper, whose real name is Megan Jovon Ruth Pete,

And some examples where either the owners rent out their mansion (and sometimes their yachts as well) for parties where hundreds show up, or the owners themselves host these mass event parties.

Hundreds of maskless revelers seen at Los Angeles mansion ...
https://cdn.abcotvs.com/dip/images/6357618_080620-cc-no-mask-party-img
?w=1600


Video shows police responding to large party at Los Angeles mansion


FBI reportedly raids YouTube star Jake Paul's home after party video surfaces
Page Six|5 days ago (Apparently he was seen repeatedly looting during the George Floyd protests/ riots which is how the feds got involved. The party was merely how they found him - the arrest was for looting.).
Federal agents are searching the Los Angeles mansion of controversial YouTube star Jake Paul after footage surfaced of a massive party there amid the coronavirus pandemic, according to reports.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1283238582195384322

Not that I'd expect you to know anything about that though. Your view of the world is too small. Hell, your view of the US is too small.

But honestly, I don't want to waste any more of my time trying to explain reality to you.

Putting you on 'ignore'.


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Monday, August 10, 2020 6:37 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


You're talking about giving the government the power to shut off water to people. The UN claims that this is a humanitarian crisis when it's done to people in Detroit for simply not having the money to pay the bill.

But it's okay here because laws are already established and you're terrified of a bug.


You applauding the mayor of San Fransisco is no different than Captain applauding Facebook or Twitter for censoring Americans and saying they have the right to do so because it's not the government de-platforming them.



You're gross. Absolutely abhorrent. A waste of carbon.

Sometimes it takes something as big as this to see what people are really made of.

You disgust me.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, August 10, 2020 12:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

You're talking about giving the government the power to shut off water to people.
All I did was point out that the police and code enforcement ALREADY have that authority and have had it for a long time.
This is nothing new.
I'm sorry if that's too much reality for you.

I apologize to everyone for starting a thread to keep up with facts about SARS-COV-2, and driving JACK over the edge with too much reality.

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Monday, August 10, 2020 1:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

You're talking about giving the government the power to shut off water to people.
All I did was point out that the police and code enforcement ALREADY have that authority and have had it for a long time.
This is nothing new.
I'm sorry if that's too much reality for you.

I apologize to everyone for starting a thread to keep up with facts about SARS-COV-2, and driving JACK over the edge with too much reality.



No. They do not have the authority to come in and turn off your power and your water service if they don't approve of your activity.

Some shady as fuck lawyers working for him might have convinced this power-hungry mayor that this is the case, but existing laws regarding abandoned buildings and crack dens do not extend to tax paying citizens who are paying for these services and give the government authority to shut off your source of life on their own personal whims.

We have a legal system for a reason. If somebody is doing something that authorities deem illegal, they need to get a warrant. Then they can make any arrests within the confines of the law. Then they get their day in court where a jury of their peers decide the outcome.


This is an extreme abuse of power, and the fact that you're cheerleading it because you're terrified says a lot about you.

You're the reason the slippery slope exists.

You better check yourself.


Do Right, Be Right. :)

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