REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fast and Furious: Some facts

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:50
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4525
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Monday, July 2, 2012 5:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"You see, even what we currently know is only known because a specific set of circumstances played out. Otherwise we wouldn't know what we know, and anyone suggesting such a ludicrous concept would be laughed at."

What do we know? A single agent gun-walked 6 guns at one time. Two agencies crossed each other up (it does happen especially when one agency has an undercover agent in place). And despite tons of information - in fact all information including emails, computer records, phone logs etc related to the operation of the ATF in that area was turned over to the subcommittee - nothing else has been uncovered. And when it comes to THAT TOPIC - F&F - there is no more information to be had. That is what we know.

What do you know that's any different?

Yanno, I'm beginning to think you have some areas where you really do refuse to accept data due to deep seated biases.


SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Monday, July 2, 2012 7:24 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

I do NOT see anything that allows law enforcement to arrest anyone who is a "straw purchaser" per se (in other words, limitations on how many you can buy, limitations on buying guns then selling them/handing them over to/others), can you point it out to me if I missed it?


Straw purchases, and multiple purchases in 4 southern border states were regulated by ATF.

See question 11a. This form must be filled out for every firearm purchase from an FFL in the USA.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Multiple purchase reporting from 07/12/2011 on.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-executive-orders-impose-new-gun-
rules
/

HCOA has an informative timeline document on the whole mess.
http://www.handgunclub.com/hca/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Project-Gunr
unner-timelines0715.pdf




Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Tuesday, July 3, 2012 5:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the last link provided, it's from the Handgun Owners Club of America, and is quite slanted, if not jut plain wrong. It only takes the first couple of paragraphs to show that:
Quote:

As of June 2011, it appears very likely that many high-ranking administration officials in both the Justice and State Departments not only lied to the American people, but also conspired to increase the number of US firearms being smuggled into Mexico.

You will recall that shortly after President Obama took office in 2009, the administration launched a loud push to reinstate the so-called "assault weapons" ban. This was a coordinated effort between and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Attorney General Eric Holder to mislead and deceive the American public. As justification for the ban, they claimed that 90% of the military-style weapons used in the drug cartel wars in Mexico were coming from the USA, from southern border gun shops. Even President Obama mentioned the 90% figure.

To begin with, there's no evidence of a conspiracy to increase the number of guns going to Mexico. Second, the Obama Administration looked to REINSTATE the assault-weapons ban PUT IN PLACE by Clinton in 1994. Bush killed it, but it was already in existance, and they had good reasons to want it reinstated:
Quote:

The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today.

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons," Holder told reporters.

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

"I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum." Holder said at a news conference on the arrest of more than 700 people in a drug enforcement crackdown on Mexican drug cartels operating in the U.S.

Mexican government officials have complained that the availability of sophisticated guns from the United States have emboldened drug traffickers to fight over access routes into the U.S.

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said. "Large firefights have taken place in many towns and cities across Mexico, but most recently in northern Mexico, including Tijuana, Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez."

At the news conference today, Holder described his discussions with his Mexican counterpart about the recent spike in violence.

"I met yesterday with Attorney General Medina Mora of Mexico, and we discussed the unprecedented levels of violence his country is facing because of their enforcement efforts," he said.

Holder declined to offer any time frame for the reimplementation of the assault weapons ban, however.

"It's something, as I said, that the president talked about during the campaign," he said. "There are obviously a number of things that are -- that have been taking up a substantial amount of his time, and so, I'm not sure exactly what the sequencing will be."

"I think closing the gun show loophole, the banning of cop-killer bullets and I also think that making the assault weapons ban permanent, would be something that would be permitted under Heller," Holder said, referring to the Supreme Court ruling in Washington, D.C. v. Heller, which asserted the Second Amendment as an individual's right to own a weapon. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Prove how any of that is untrue. As to the "90%" figure, that is what was repeated in most mainstream media sites, that “90% of the guns used by gangs in Mexico originate in the U.S.”. That is absolutely false, the original statement was that “90% of the traced weapons” did, which is to say about 17% of them.

Having found that many misstatements in the first two paragraphs, I have no respect for whatever may follow and see it as propaganda from supposed "Handgun Owners". The fact is that the vast majority of gun owners in America don't belong to the NRA (or any other organization), yet their power is such that they are a major political force. Put them together with Issa and his agenda, and voila, you've got a conspiracy.

Anthony, I see your "purist" side coming to the fore again--NO offense intended--in that you feel everything should be transparent...perhaps even if there's nothing there to find, but to ensure that there IS nothing there to find. The arguments against Obama/Holder having to turn over any MORE document is a valid one for me, personally, as Issa's not looking for any conspiracy around F&F itself, has been given all documents relating to the action itself, and is using that as a guise to demand documents about internal Executive Administration communications. He's NOT interested in investigating F&F any further than it's been investigated, he just wants to create a situation where he can use his power to undermine both of them. He's been at this for over a year, the administration has given him all pertinent documents; Holder even OFFERED him the ones he wants, remember, but he wouldn't take them because Holder wanted an end to this as a result of him handing them over. If Holder offered that, and combined it with asking for a promise to end this, and Issa REFUSED, doesn't hat tell you something? Issa could have had all the answers he wants (supposedly), he just had to knock off this witch hunt. Not good enough for him.


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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

You will recall that shortly after President Obama took office in 2009, the administration launched a loud push to reinstate the so-called "assault weapons" ban.


I don't recall any "loud push" on that issue at all. It was mentioned, barely, and was quickly stomped on by Democrats as well as Republicans. There was never a half a chance that it was going to be reinstated.

As is typical with the right, if Obama so much as mentions something in passing, it's a "loud push". If he said "We need to not believe so much in fairy tales," the right-wing media would shit their britches Ted Nugent-style and claim that Obama was declaring war on Mother Goose and trying to outlaw Hans Christian Andersen.

Here's your "loud push":

Quote:


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is now the second member of President Obama's cabinet to get shot down by the White House over the politically sensitive issue of assault weapons. After meeting with Mexican President Felipe Calderón, Clinton said that reinstating the U.S. ban on assault weapons—which was passed in 1994 and expired in 2004—is one step this country could take to curb the flow of guns to Mexico's drug cartels. "These military-style weapons don't belong on anybody's street," Clinton told NBC. Within hours, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters that he was unaware of "any plans" to push for such a ban—even though Obama had backed one during last year's campaign.

Attorney General Eric Holder had a similar experience a few weeks earlier. After he endorsed a ban at a Feb. 25 press conference, Justice officials were instructed by White House aides to drop the issue, according to administration and congressional aides who asked not to be named due to political sensitivities. What's behind the shift? A budding relationship between the gun lobby and Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill. After Holder mentioned the ban, the National Rifle Association sent out action alerts to its members and bombarded Hill offices with calls. Sixty-five House Dems dashed off a letter to Holder opposing such a ban, while Speaker Nancy Pelosi—echoing the NRA's mantra on all gun-control issues—said she backed "enforcing the laws we have now."



http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/03/27/a-gun-ban-gets-shot-d
own.html






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


BTW, Niki - one of his other big sources is "The Blaze" a hard-right website similar to Breitbart, and owned and operated by Glen Beck's Mercury Radio Arts group.

So take that for what it's worth.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, over time I picked up on The Blaze--it's one of the so-called "sources" PN consistently links, so I've learned to pretty much ignore it, except to refute stuff from there.

And you're right about the supposed "push". When I read the remark I looked around to find out what it meant, and what I found was passing mention of it and no follow-up too. But of course it's the fear tactic that works so well for the right and gets more people to buy guns out of fear, which increases the gun manufacturers' bottom line, so it's useful for that. Idjits, all of them who swallow the pablum put out by FauxNews, etc.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gee Whiz, looks like I'm not alone in my opinion ss what this whole "investigation" is about:
Quote:

Do you think congressional Republicans are investigating Holder and Operation Fast and Furious mostly because they
have real ethical concerns about the way the matter was handled, or mostly because they want to gain political advantage?

June 28-July 1
2012
Real ethical concerns 34%
Gain political advantage 61%
No opinion 5% http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/07/09/rel6d.pdf

Apparently at least 61% of the American people aren't as dumb as I thought...

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Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:23 AM

CAVETROLL





Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

and they all look like this...


Hello,

Hyperbole, exaggeration, and false statements don't strengthen an argument.

I presume you were going for funny but this has been a serious argument.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yeah, over time I picked up on The Blaze--it's one of the so-called "sources" PN consistently links, so I've learned to pretty much ignore it, except to refute stuff from there.

And you're right about the supposed "push". When I read the remark I looked around to find out what it meant, and what I found was passing mention of it and no follow-up too. But of course it's the fear tactic that works so well for the right and gets more people to buy guns out of fear, which increases the gun manufacturers' bottom line, so it's useful for that. Idjits, all of them who swallow the pablum put out by FauxNews, etc.




Watch out for "godfatherpolitics" as a "news" source, too. It's another one that's been popping up lately.



Meanwhile, the Troll presents more of his "facts" - he's almost as good as Rappy at making shit up and claiming it as truth!

I'll bet money that he's completely unwilling or unable to produce any kind of verifiable evidence to support his idiotic claims.

I'll wait.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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