REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Feeding the Planet without Destroying It

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, June 8, 2012 13:39
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Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good questions all; would be interested in others' opinions on this:
Quote:



Climate change is the environmental problem that obsesses us, the one that's the focus of high-flying international summits and hardcore national politics. But it's not the only environmental problem — and it's not even the biggest one. That happens to be the crisis in agriculture and land use, the subject of what Jon Foley — the head of the University of Minnesota's Institute on the Environment — calls the "other inconvenient truth." Put simply, the act of feeding 7 billion plus human beings already puts more stress on the planet than any other single activity — and with both population and global wealth continuing to grow, we're going to need to figure out a way to produce more food without further damaging the environment. Otherwise we may end up running out of both food and the planet.

Of course, exactly how we should address these problems is the subject of fierce debate in the U.S. and beyond. Is the solution to go organic as much as possible, or should we focus on trying to extend the fertilizer and irrigation of the Green Revolution to underperforming agricultural areas in Africa and Asia? Do we need to change our diet and reduce meat consumption, or is it simply unrealistic to expect more of us to become semi-vegetarians — especially among the rising global middle class just getting a chance to eat like Americans? How much value do intact forests and wildlife habitat have as we struggle to feed the 1 billion people who go to bed hungry each night? And is it really food production we need to improve, or distribution?

It's important to understand just how massive global agriculture's footprint really is. First there's simply the matter of land: 6.2 million sq. mi (16 million sq. km) are currently used to grow crops — an amount of land about equal to the size of South America — while 11.6 million sq. mi (30 million sq. km) has been set aside for pastureland, an area equal to the entire African continent. Altogether that's more than 40% of the dry land on the planet. We use 60 times more land to grow and raise food than we do to live on. Farming takes half the world's available freshwater, much of which is used for irrigation. And all that activity — plus the deforestation and degradation that tends to go hand in hand with farming — helps make agriculture the single biggest source of manmade greenhouse gases, more than industry or transportation or electricity generation. "We are running out of everything," says Foley. "We are running out of planet." More at http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2115423,00.html]



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2115423,00.html#ixzz1vc
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Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2115423,00.html#ixzz1vc
rGot8P

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Good article, this isn't discussed as often as one would think. Feeding all of us is a full time thing, feeding us all healthily is even harder.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I still think instead of caving to the backwards and barbaric religious objections of folks who wanna turn back the clock and revoke civilization, we damn well OUGHT to storm ahead in regards to genetic engineering, at least sufficient to clone meat instead of the amazingly wasteful, inhumane and destructive ways it is obtained now.
Just jumping THAT hurdle would solve a lot of these problems at a stroke, yanno ?

-F

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Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:22 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


But Frem, wouldn't genetically modified meat have some of the same problems as genetically modified vegitables and fruits? And I know you don't like that sort of thing in regards to vegitables and fruits, so what's to stop them from doing the same thing with meats that you don't like as with vegitables?

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:11 AM

CATPIRATE


The gulf countries have a western grocery culture. They eat well. The Arabs, China, India, and Brazil are buying up quite a bit of land around the head waters of the Nile. What I see it isn't about oil, minerals, and gold but mainly farm lands. Also land in Australia and NZ is quietly being snagged up by the same foreigners. They are expecting a pacific rim population explosion in 2050. They are planning for the future by colonizing Africa. I believe Hilary Clinton spoke on this last year.
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7boCbo5SQopjuyCr
zWp0FTZkpuDz4M91ELFmDPwIFdqbjN8-SUA


I like steak but I'll kill for a burger.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 4:08 AM

CAVETROLL


There are 2 problems you have to deal with; Population and productivity. Transportation and storage play a part as well.

One is just a severe over population problem. There's more people than the earth can support without artificial assistance. While the sheer area of arable land is huge, not all of it is equal. Aside from varying levels of productivity (Africa and South America, especially land reclaimed from jungles and rain forests, average the poorest soil for farming). While elsewhere the latitude of the most arable land restricts farming to a single growing season.

Now, let's take our imaginary acre of land. Let's say it has average soil and receives average rainfall. Using organic growth methods, that acre will be 1/4 as productive as the same acre grown using GMO seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. And that is at the truck. Now let's take into account spoilage on the way to the consumer. There's an estimate that the US loses HALF of our food due to spoilage, infestation or other causes on the way to market. And that is just in the US. Add in lack of infrastructure in developing countries and political issues, such as time to clear customs or just plain ol' intransigence, and you can see why people are starving.

Need proof? The rule of thumb is that 1 acre of land can feed one person for a year. There are 640 square acres to the square mile. Using the figures Niki posted, of 6.2 million square miles of agricultural land, the figure is that we could theoretically support 3,968,000,000 people. We already grow enough food, but we don't have the resources and energy to get it to the hungry mouths. Using organic methods that same acreage could feed 992,000,000 people. These figures, which are SWAGs, do not take into account food taken from the ocean. So, organic growth and a best case 50% loss on the way to the consumer means a population of 496,000,000 people, worldwide.

Yeah, I don't think I want to watch a population of 7 billion shrink to 496 million. Most people wouldn't get the opportunity to starve to death. They'd be killed in riots for food.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 4:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So why not control our population?

Why do we assume that we, of all animals, have some sort of special dispensation to keep growing our population without limit?

Do you know where THAT ends, in nature?

Yep, famine.

Is there any intelligent life on this planet?

Doubtful.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 4:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree, Sig...with every word.


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Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:57 AM

CAVETROLL


Not my problem. I've already signed up for Zero Population Growth. I'm not having kids, remember? I figure the world has until I'm about at retirement age, and then it's going to be a bumpy ride. Say, 20 years or so.

Not that I want to sound like PN, but I'm hoping to be off the grid and in an isolated, snowbelt location by then.

Not that it would upset me to be proven wrong.

I'd love for these private enterprise space ventures to bear fruit by the time I figure things are going to go sideways. I would rejoice at the news that a viable breeding population of humans has been establish off planet. I doubt it will happen, but hey, we went to the moon in a decade.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:22 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Signe, I can't get behind such a plan, if every couple only had one child then there would be no more siblings, no more aunts, no more uncles, no more cousins, and what if you're pregnant with twins, would you have to kill one? How would you choose which one to kill? I can't get behind government mandated population control.

But what I can get behind is people getting educated about their own selves and thinking about whether they should be reproducing and making wise choices for themselves. I for instance will not be having children, I know myself and I know it would be the dumbest thing I could do, reproducing. I have no business making babies. But myself and my family helped me come to this decision, not the government or the Population Police. I think good choice making is a much better way to approach population size issues.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:29 PM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think good choice making is a much better way to approach population size issues.




HAVE YOU BEEN TO EARTH LATELY?? Read any news? Ever heard of Nadia Suleman or Quiverfull?? OR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH??

As long as there are supermarkets, there will be people who have tons of kids...And every country has 'em.

"Good choice making" Piffft. This planet is frelled and there is nothing you can do about it. A recent survey on the Daily Mail asked people if they thought of themselves as "good" people, I don't remember if it was one in every five or one in every eight, but THAT MANY feel that they themselves are BAD HUMAN BEINGS...And that was just the moderately sane middle class, I'm sure. Prolly more like one in every three people are just worthless. You can't fight that and you can't fix that.

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Friday, May 25, 2012 3:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


While I would like to be able to let people make their own intelligent choices, how well have we done on that premise? We've had about 10,000 years to get it right, and so far not seeing much progress.

Even in this nation, where we can claim our birthrate isn't too big, our wastage is excessive. Just looking at energy, if we consume at a "10" per capita, the EU consumes at a "5" and Cuba and Costa Rica at "1". We could drop our energy consumption in HALF to match the EU- with NO drop in our living standard at all- and all of the leftover energy would be enough to bring the ENTIRE undeveloped world up to Costa-Rican/ Cuban standard, which isn't too shabby. Women in these undeveloped areas would then have options to do other things besides having babies.

It would seem to be a win-win. Everybody wins, nobody loses. As sensible and intelligent as that would seem RIONA, how much progress have we made along those lines lately?

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Friday, May 25, 2012 4:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry Riona, I'm with Wish and Sig. If you look at history, humans have pretty much found/conquered a place, used up the resources and created enormous trash, then either built a city over the city or moved on to find/conquer another place, use up the resources, create enormous trash, etc. Certainly that's been, as best I've read, the history of Europe/England We just had so much space we could keep moving, and even then we did our own share of conquering.

Humans, as a species, ain't too bright when it comes to managing their own lives. To think education or anything else will change that--well, you're young. All the educating in the world doesn't stop people from smoking, or kids from starting it. Our country is in a crisis of obesity, education on that issue is everywhere; has it changed anything? I'll repeat myself here; waiting in a car dealership waiting room, I saw a TV show about a guy who dealt with one obese family with several kids. He took them to the doctor; one kid turned out to be diabetic and another well on the way. He taught the family how to shop, cook--easy stuff--eat, etc. The parents were in tears when they discovered their kid had diabetes, really torn up about it. He went back six months later; nothing had changed, the diabetic kid was on medication, that's all. So much for education!

Bear in mind also that, still to this day, for many, many women their whole point in life is to grow up, get married, and have kids. Less than before in our history maybe, but still... Big weddings abound, and you can bet virtually all of those who have those big weddings can't wait for the first baby. Self-control just ain't gonna happen. And since we're a country, unlike China, which won't force it, AND since we're such a rich country, we'll suffer from overpopulation later than most of the rest of the world, but it'll get here.

Yours is a nice thought, but look around you. In fact, even your initial response that there would be no siblings, etc., kind of illustrates how we think.


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Friday, May 25, 2012 4:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

all of the leftover energy would be enough to bring the ENTIRE undeveloped world up to Costa-Rican/ Cuban standard, which isn't too shabby.


Hello,

I'd suggest rephrasing any statement that begins with the premise that the Cuban standard isn't too shabby.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, May 25, 2012 10:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Tony, you're thinking of the Cuba that your grandpa told you about. But even Poland hasn't stood still. Time to catch up a bit....

vimeo.com/8653921

You'll have to copy-paste this into your URL line after you type in " http://"; the direct link doesn't work.

It's called "Beyond Peak Oil" and shows how Cuba had to adapt very quickly to the loss of most of it's oil and 80% of its trade when the Soviet Union collapsed and the USA tightened its embargo. If the same thing had happened to the USA, we would descend to barbarism and chaos within weeks, don't tell me we wouldn't.

After you watch it, I'll give you my critique.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I found this video quite humorous.

Essentially, after abolishing microfarming and any sense of land ownership, the government knuckled under the weight of harsh reality and re-instituted these systems. After observing the things that individual Cubans did in violation of government rules in order to survive, the government gave in to the inevitable and adopted the policies officially.

Quote:

Tony, you're thinking of the Cuba that your grandpa told you about.


This microfarming very MUCH recalls the Cuba that my grandpa told me about. If you recall, that's how Cubans before Castro used to supplement their inadequate incomes and feed their families.

ETA: Especially note the portion of the video where they talk about recruiting old farmers who remembered how to handle Oxen. This Cuban revolution in farming is actually a return to prior practices from my grandfather's era.

Quote:

If the same thing had happened to the USA, we would descend to barbarism and chaos within weeks, don't tell me we wouldn't.


Yes, I believe we would. But keep in mind the sociopolitical environment that allowed Cuba to escape such a condition.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


TONY, there were a few things I noticed in the video.


One of them was the return to decentralized agriculture. In a way, it was a return of land to the laborers from which it was taken... by the sugar-barons and then the government.... lo these many years ago. Given the transformation of American agriculture from family farms to corporate farms, can you imagine the American government doing the same thing today? (Be honest. If our government were to promote such a policy today it would allow renters and squatters to farm the backyards of rental units and foreclosed houses. I for one have a hard time imagining our government doing anything other than supporting corporate ownership and foreclosure.)

The other thing I noticed is that - unlike in your grandfather's day- food and essential services were equally distributed. Hoarding and profiteering were forbidden. Everyone got free medical care and education. I thought the government response to a true economic crisis was humane. Hard to imagine THAT in your grandfather's day... or here either, for that matter.

The other things that I noticed is Costa Rica has tourism which transfers "hard currency" to their economy and allows the importation of high-energy goods like cements, glass, aluminum and steel and high-tech goods. This importation of goods allows their per capita energy needs to be underestimated. Cuba has no such material inflow. It is still relatively isolated, so it's per capita energy production is a true measure of it's per capita energy use. And Cuba is STILL struggling. It lacks cement and glass to repair its buildings or build new ones, and steel to make better transportation. Therefore, despite the best efforts of the government to make life good for everyone Cuba still lacks a complete economy because of it's energy deficit. Both Cuba and Costa Rica are also rather small nations without extreme heat or cold, and lacking in heavy industry. Therefore, I suspect the REAL per capita energy minimum necessary for a a reasonable lifestyle is more like a "2" rather than a "1", using the USA as a "10". Despite all of that, Cuba seems to be the role model of many south and central American nations.

But to get back to the problem of feeding the planet (and also reducing our energy use) there is a tremendous amount of suburban... and even urban... land which is fertilized, watered and sprayed only to produce pretty green lawns.

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 2:55 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER




We have the capacity to feed our planet's population, but maybe not keep them in SUV's and wide screen tvs. I think talking about food muddies the issue. People don't starve because there is a food shortage in the world, but because of unequal distribution of wealth, and wars. Droughts don't count. We had a 10 year drought in this country and no one starved because we are a wealthy nation and can buy solutions.

There is more to supporting a population than feeding it, there is water supplies, what you do with waste, the impact on all resources, especially resources 'needed' in a highly technological society.

There are food surpluses in all western nations, we throw away and destroy masses of food.

Food is not the issue, or at least not the primary one.

Think about it. How many resources do we all use on an individual basis. What materials have we used to build our houses, cars, tvs, computers, fixtures, fitting, clothes. Not just what was used to make them, but what materials were needed to support their production. Then what does it take to keep us functioning, energy costs, fuel, food, water, waste disposal. How many resources does it take to produce one piece of fruit, fertiliser, insecticide, transport, storage, refrigeration, packaging?


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Saturday, May 26, 2012 3:40 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I know more than one dude that lives off of Wendy's waste...

Actually, a good friend of mine was found that way.

He doesn't have phone or internet or TV..... His "work" shirts are hung on the dumpster.

I was dumpster diving with some friends at Wendys a few years back and banking a ton of "frequent flyer miles" from disposed cups when I dived into the wrong dumpster. Suddenly, I had a knife against my throat....

When I explained my situation, he was cool with me. The whole conversation he referred to that back-door Wendy's dumpster as his home.

After that, he just collected the cups in a bag for me until the promotion ran out. I gave him ten cents a cup, and he even went to other dumpsters to get more.....



As for thrown away food, you're right.... TONS of food at EVERY fast food joint gets thrown away every night.

My old man wanted to open a FastFood+ store that would specialize in selling slightly overcooked food at a massively discounted price. Could you imagine a world where a Giant Wopper with all the fixins was priced at 99 cents just because it's been under the grill for 6 hours?


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Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I thought the government response to a true economic crisis was humane. Hard to imagine THAT in your grandfather's day... or here either, for that matter.


Hello,

In my grandfather's day, this same government you credit for its humanity had a distinctly inhumane response to economic crisis. This government's current inspirational role involves reversing most of the agricultural reforms it instituted to begin with. Even when the evil capitalists ruled he land, no one dared extend government control so far as to outlaw microfarming. That was the brain-child of this humane government.

I laud the Cubans for surviving their crisis, but please don't try to characterize the government as humane.

The factor that allowed the Cubans to avoid chaos was the inhumanity of a government that assured the populace had no avenue for misbehavior.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 26, 2012 7:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This government's current inspirational role involves reversing most of the agricultural reforms it instituted to begin with
I think that is rather the point, TONY. The government is NOT the same. They have moved on, but you seem to be stuck in the past.
Quote:

The factor that allowed the Cubans to avoid chaos was the inhumanity of a government that assured the populace had no avenue for misbehavior.
So what are you saying? That "the populace" as a whole is so sociopathic that everyone would have misbehaved en masse and only the inhumane government deserves credit for pulling everyone together and saving lives? There are too many contradictions in that thought for me to even follow!

You are normally a logical and low-key kind of guy, not prone to getting riled up by even the most extreme statements, but clearly this topic is a source of much emotion. The funny thing is, if I understand correctly, you didn't even grow up there. That would be like me getting emotional when discussing Poland. Many things happened to my dad and his family there, but Poland is not my home, the USA is. Can you bring your normal logic and control to the table when discussing Cuba?


ETA: TONY, THIS IS HOW "WE" HANDLE FOOD SCARCITY IN THE CAPITALIST WORLD

Quote:

Multinational corporations are buying up swathes of land in underdeveloped countries in an unchecked scramble towards new-age colonialism. So-called “land grabbing” sees western powers vying for economic control of the developing world’s resources.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MAGONS, 6IX: It is very easy to say that the problem is not food when you live in a nation awash in it. But the reality is that if you were to distribute food evenly across the planet and were able to eliminate most of the waste there still wouldn't be enough good food for everyone. And at THIS level of production, we're already ruining the planet.

BTW- as far as water in concerned, the biggest user of water is agriculture.... 80-90%. So a water crisis is still a food crisis- if we didn't have to produce so much food we wouldn't be running so short of water.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

So what are you saying? That "the populace" as a whole is so sociopathic that everyone would have misbehaved en masse and only the inhumane government deserves credit for pulling everyone together and saving lives? There are too many contradictions in that thought for me to even follow!


Hello,

I'm not sure why you'd call the populace 'sociopathic' but we BOTH agreed that starving, unhappy populations can be expected to revolt and riot. To quote yourself:

Quote:

If the same thing had happened to the USA, we would descend to barbarism and chaos within weeks, don't tell me we wouldn't.


But this is much less an option in a country where any dissent has been systematically crushed for decades. I doubt most free people would endure many of the unhappy policies of Cuba, but in a land where the government has asserted its unquestioned dominion over the population, it is possible to accomplish a great many things that would normally result in chaos.

I don't know why you need to accuse me of a loss of logic and control when discussing this subject. My logic is not in question. You even agreed with me in the exact same conclusions when it was the Americans under discussion. You can't blindly accept the cultural differences between Cubans and Americans without also spending some time contemplating the massive sociopolitical factors that created such a difference in cultural attitudes. The Cuban people staged a revolution once when things were *much better.* They did not do so again when things were *much worse* because such dissent had been thoroughly ground out of the population. Sociopathy doesn't figure into it.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 8:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

but we BOTH agreed that starving, unhappy populations can be expected to revolt and riot
No, we don't both agree. If "the government" is doing what is fair, necessary and right, why would people revolt and riot? The only reason I would expect revolts and riots is because of inequity. Revolts and riots might also occur because of ineffectiveness. For example, maybe everyone is equal but the response is inadequate... "We sacrificed 10,000 foreigners but the rain STILL didn't come"... but usually people revolt because of inequity.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:54 AM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


I reposted this from another thread b/c it seems applicable

Quote:

Well, it starts with a couple of ideas that seem pretty true to me.

1) All animals live on the edge of available resources in nature. It doesn't matter whether they're herbivores, carnivores, scavengers or omnivores. It doesn't matter if they fly, swim, walk or crawl. To illustrate this, imagine a lush evergreen veldt. For simplicity’s sake there are no predators. Now imagine two lucky grazers, male and female, that come upon this resource. They'll reproduce at their top rate until there are too many grazers for the vegetation to support. Even under initially ideal circumstances, sooner of later an animal species will hit the limits of necessary resources.

And that's the condition of animal life on the planet today, which is reproduction to the limit of resources, with threat of death by privation.
Quote:

2) Humans escaped resource insecurity caused by fluctuating water and food supplies and weather through simple technology. The bowl or waterskin was probably the most critical as people die fastest without water (except air, but air isn't going to run out soon). The pounding rock and stick were probably next as they were tools that let people get food from normally unavailable sources. Animal skins for shelter were probably next. At some point a sufficient accumulation of simple technology freed humans from immediate threat of running out of resources.

At that point people were like the two grazers in the middle of the evergreen veldt. Absent globally catastrophic events like super-volcanoes or large meteorites, they were in the environment that they were adapted to, but buffered against local adversity by their technology. They were in a relative Eden.

There were only 2 things that could bring that to an end. One was expanding their population to the new limits of their resources. The other was accumulating far more than they needed, and so mimicking a much larger population.

I think that if people had understood that they had passed into a new type of existence and created a philosophy of 'just enough' humanity would have been guaranteed not only indefinite survival, but individual survival and even comfort and ease. Using just enough resources to meet your needs and having just enough children to replace your numbers would have meant humanity could have lived indefinitely in abundance.





But another related idea is that living beings which corner the most resources the fastest will outcompete the others. And while in the long run it might not be sustainable - leading to a population crash - in the short term it'll be wildly successful. Evolution doesn't look ahead and decide such a thing is not ultimately successful, so let's just skip the whole thing.

People with all their vaunted intelligence follow the drives implanted by evolution. We act a lot more like animals and not very much like the sapiens we call ourselves.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

but we BOTH agreed that starving, unhappy populations can be expected to revolt and riot
No, we don't both agree. If "the government" is doing what is fair, necessary and right, why would people revolt and riot? The only reason I would expect revolts and riots is because of inequity. Revolts and riots might also occur because of ineffectiveness. For example, maybe everyone is equal but the response is inadequate... "We sacrificed 10,000 foreigners but the rain STILL didn't come"... but usually people revolt because of inequity.



Hello,

In Cuba there was both inequity and also ineffectiveness. The response to their crisis was driven from the bottom up out of necessity, not from the top down. The top down responses were all the wrong ones and put the people in peril.

If you pay attention to the video you will notice the implication that the people began their microfarming out of necessity (in contravention of former agricultural policy, you must know) and the government only embraced the idea afterwards because of survival needs. (You can't rule a dead populace, it turns out.)

In any event, you seem prepared to persist in your assertion that Cuba has a humane government, which boggles me but does not seem to be something you and I are likely to agree upon. Cuba may be an excellent example of how to survive an energy crisis, but it has not been an excellent example of how humans should be treated in a society, nor the type of standard the world should be striving for.

The only thing that makes me angrier than the way the Cuban government treats its people is the way the American government treats Cuba. This is not a position borne of ignorance or irrationality, but one of careful observation of the ills inflicted upon the Cuban people.

You would do much better to observe the agricultural benefits for their own merits and avoid assigning undue humanity or benevolence to the rulership.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 2:01 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

In Cuba there was both inequity and also ineffectiveness. The top down responses were all the wrong ones and put the people in peril.

In any event, you seem prepared to persist in your assertion that Cuba has a humane government, which boggles me but does not seem to be something you and I are likely to agree upon. Cuba may be an excellent example of how to survive an energy crisis, but it has not been an excellent example of how humans should be treated in a society, nor the type of standard the world should be striving for.



Where was the inequity? Were there a few multi-billionaires and a vast majority of starving? And the top down responses were wrong? Should the government have NOT distributed food? Should it NOT have invited the Australians to teach about permaculture? Should it NOT provide free education to all? Or free medical care?

You seem to criticize the government for doing it's best, including changing long-standing policies, in order to keep each and every person from starving.

That boggles me.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 2:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, it boggle me too.

TONY, the response to the crisis was more than just microfarming. If YOU pay attention to the video you will notice that the government eliminated hoarding and profiteering, extended supplements to pregnant women, continued free healthcare and free education, converted trucks to buses ("camels"), scattered institutions of higher education to make them easier to get to, improved land-use planning in general, and scrounged up any sort of energy supply that they could.

You simply cannot believe that the Cuban government might actually have done something... even several somethings... that were reasonable and good.

In any case, my other point is that the Cuban economy is still incomplete because of it's energy deficit, and despite the best efforts of the Cuban government and the people, raw materials production and industry is lagging, and therefore so is housing and transportation. So- again- I think that a more realistic "bottom-rung but still acceptable" quality of life would need about 1/5th of the current energy that we Americans spend today per capita, not the 1/10 that Cuba is currently consuming or that Costa Rica claims. The implications of that is if we are really interested in doing something about the world environment, the upper middle-class person today in the USA would have to take a lifestyle hit.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 3:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Signy,

Quote:

You simply cannot believe that the Cuban government might actually have done something... even several somethings... that were reasonable and good.


I have no problem understanding that good things were accomplished, but I do not let that then blind me to the inhumane practices of oppression the government enforces upon the populace. The good end result does not wash away the bad means to the end.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 3:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAGONS, 6IX: It is very easy to say that the problem is not food when you live in a nation awash in it. But the reality is that if you were to distribute food evenly across the planet and were able to eliminate most of the waste there still wouldn't be enough good food for everyone. And at THIS level of production, we're already ruining the planet.

BTW- as far as water in concerned, the biggest user of water is agriculture.... 80-90%. So a water crisis is still a food crisis- if we didn't have to produce so much food we wouldn't be running so short of water.



I don't think I agree with you, sig, but i'd like to see more data and more of your argument.

I don't believe food production is the issue, or at least not the major one. we have the technology to feed and water our entire planet. We just don't.

This small article kind of sums up what my argument.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/7/causes-of-hunger-are-related-to-
poverty


Quote:

Consider the following:

Over 9 million people die worldwide each year because of hunger and malnutrition. 5 million are children.
Approximately 1.2 billion people suffer from hunger (deficiency of calories and protein);
Some 2 to 3.5 billion people have micronutrient deficiency (deficiency of vitamins and minerals);
Yet, some 1.2 billion suffer from obesity (excess of fats and salt, often accompanied by deficiency of vitamins and minerals);
Food wastage is also high:
In the United Kingdom, “a shocking 30-40% of all food is never eaten;”
In the last decade the amount of food British people threw into the bin went up by 15%;
Overall, £20 billion (approximately $38 billion US dollars) worth of food is thrown away, every year.
In the US 40-50% of all food ready for harvest never gets eaten
Of the food that does eventually reach households, some 14% is wasted, resulting in something like $43 billion of wastage
If food reaching supermarkets, restaurants and cafeterias is added to the household figure, that wastage goes up to 27%.
In Sweden, families with small children throw out about a quarter of the food they buy
In some parts of Africa a quarter or more of the crops go bad before they can be eaten. More generally, high losses in developing nations are mainly due to a lack of technology and infrastructure as well as insect infestations, microbial growth, damage and high temperatures and humidity.
The impacts of this waste is not just financial. Environmentally this leads to:
Wasteful use of chemicals such as fertilizers and pesticides;
More fuel used for transportation;
More rotting food, creating more methane — one of the most harmful greenhouse gases that contributes to climate change.
Reducing wastage in the US by half could reduce adverse environmental impacts by 25 percent through reduced landfill use, soil depletion and applications of fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides.
The direct medical cost of hunger and malnutrition is estimated at $30 billion each year.
Sources»

In a world of plenty, a huge number go hungry. Hunger is more than just the result of food production and meeting demands. The causes of hunger are related to the causes of poverty. One of the major causes of hunger is poverty itself. The various issues discussed throughout this site about poverty lead to people being unable to afford food and hence people go hungry.

There are other related causes (also often related to the causes of poverty in various ways), including the following:

Land rights and ownership
Diversion of land use to non-productive use
Increasing emphasis on export-oriented agriculture
Inefficient agricultural practices
War
Famine
Drought
Over-fishing
Poor crop yield
Lack of democracy and rights
etc.



And some more

Quote:

In many cases where food is grown, it is often for exports. In some cases, while local people may be going hungry, they are growing food to export for the hard cash that would be earned. The increasingly export-oriented economies are being promoted by the wealthier Northern countries and the international institutions that they have strong influence over, the IMF and World Bank, as detailed in the Structural Adjustment section on this site. The result of this is that the wealthier nations tend to benefit while poorer countries generally lose out.


Quote:

World hunger exists because: (1) colonialism, and later subtle monopoly capitalism, dispossessed hundreds of millions of people from their land; the current owners are the new plantation managers producing for the mother countries; (2) the low-paid undeveloped countries sell to the highly paid developed countries because there is no local market [because the low-paid people do not have enough to pay] … and (3) the current Third World land owners, producing for the First World, are appendages to the industrialized world, stripping all natural wealth from the land to produce food, lumber, and other products for wealthy nations.

This system is largely kept in place by underpaying the defeated colonial societies for the real value of their labor and resources, leaving them no choice but to continue to sell their natural wealth to the over-paid industrial societies that overwhelmed them. To eliminate hunger: (1) the dispossessed, weak, individualized people must be protected from the organized and legally protected multinational corporations; (2) there must be managed trade to protect both the Third World and the developed world, so the dispossessed can reclaim use of their land; (3) the currently defeated people can then produce the more labor-intensive, high-protein/high-calorie crops that contain all eight (or nine) essential amino acids; and (4) those societies must adapt dietary patterns so that vegetables, grains, and fruits are consumed in the proper amino acid combinations, with small amounts of meat or fish for flavor. With similar dietary adjustments among the wealthy, there would be enough food for everyone.



Etc etc etc.

Food shortages, famine and hunger are caused by the inequities that exist in this world, and which are activily maintained by wealthy nations.


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Sunday, May 27, 2012 3:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Where was the inequity? Were there a few multi-billionaires and a vast majority of starving? And the top down responses were wrong? Should the government have NOT distributed food? Should it NOT have invited the Australians to teach about permaculture? Should it NOT provide free education to all? Or free medical care?

You seem to criticize the government for doing it's best, including changing long-standing policies, in order to keep each and every person from starving.

That boggles me.



Hello,

I don't think you'll find multi-billionaires in Cuba, but you will indeed find the have plenty's and the don't have jack alls.

On the way to 'doing its best' the government did a lot of terrible things that exacerbated the situation for the people. So I am not going to look at the current end result and say, "Wow, what a wonderful humane government." Rather, what I see is a government that finally came to term with its epic failures and reversed a great number of its failed policies. There are certainly things to learn about surviving an energy crisis from Cuba, but it is in no way the model for a humane government.

If you are intent on giving credit where credit is due, please do remember to credit them with their sins as well as their accomplishments.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 3:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I have no problem understanding that good things were accomplished, but I do not let that then blind me to the inhumane practices of oppression the government enforces upon the populace. The good end result does not wash away the bad means to the end.
And yet, neither you nor the USA is in any particular position to point the finger about oppression, seeing as we've managed to kill a vast number of people around the world and imprison a record number. So in terms of credit where credit is due, flow it in all directions equally m'kay?

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Tally up my glowing praise of America's actions and my condemnation of America's practices and see which weighs heavier on the scales. Sometimes, Signy, you stop talking to me and start talking to a generic person that exists in your head.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:37 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
ello,

I don't think you'll find multi-billionaires in Cuba, but you will indeed find the have plenty's and the don't have jack alls.

On the way to 'doing its best' the government did a lot of terrible things that exacerbated the situation for the people. So I am not going to look at the current end result and say, "Wow, what a wonderful humane government." Rather, what I see is a government that finally came to term with its epic failures and reversed a great number of its failed policies. There are certainly things to learn about surviving an energy crisis from Cuba, but it is in no way the model for a humane government.

If you are intent on giving credit where credit is due, please do remember to credit them with their sins as well as their accomplishments.

--Anthony

And yet you turn a blind eye to the VAST inequities in other countries - say, the US - where 1/3 of children go to bed hungry, while multi-billionaires get tens of billions more in taxpayer bailouts. You turn a blind eye to the record number of people incarcerated by a justice system where people can get all the justice money can buy. You turn a blind eye to a system that is on the verge of writing off education, healthcare for the elderly, and infrastructure and leaving them to the mercy of 'market forces' and the wealthy.

I'm not naive. I know a PR piece when I see it. But if you look back in the history of Cuba - before the god-awful Castro - you'll find vast wealth in the hands of a few, grinding poverty of the very very many - and brutal political oppression, mass torture, and murder at the behest of the rich and powerful. Like under Batista.

Remember, being anti-socialist doesn't make you pro-freedom.


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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:47 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:


And yet you turn a blind eye to the VAST inequities in other countries - say, the US - where 1/3 of children go to bed hungry, while multi-billionaires get tens of billions more in taxpayer bailouts. You turn a blind eye to the record number of people incarcerated by a justice system where people can get all the justice money can buy. You turn a blind eye to a system that is on the verge of writing off education, healthcare for the elderly, and infrastructure and leaving them to the mercy of 'market forces' and the wealthy.

I'm not naive. I know a PR piece when I see it. But if you look back in the history of Cuba - before the god-awful Castro - you'll find vast wealth in the hands of a few, grinding poverty of the very very many - and brutal political oppression, mass torture, and murder at the behest of the rich and powerful. Like under Batista.

Remember, being anti-socialist doesn't make you pro-freedom.





Hello,

I do? I turn a blind eye to all of these things? I'm quite surprised to hear that about myself.

Then you go on to speak about Batista and all the bad things that happened under his regime as though there is some kind of contrast to the things that happened after. The whole lesson of Batista/Castro is that trading one pig for another does nothing to benefit the Animal Farm.

You also fail in your observation that I am anti-socialist. I have only ever been against socialism when it is described as failing to respect the freedoms and rights of the individual. I don't think you'll ever find me decrying a system merely because 'it's socialist!' but rather because people's freedoms are quite severely curtailed.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:51 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


To be fair to Anthony, he often comments on the flaws and failings of the US.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:52 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


"The whole lesson of Batista/Castro is that trading one pig for another does nothing to benefit the Animal Farm."

Unless of course one pig makes sure all the other pigs are starving, uneducated, lack medical care, and are subject to mass torture, while the other pig is the opposite.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

but rather because people's freedoms are quite severely curtailed.
The freedom to do what?

Quite honestly, Tony, I don't recall you condemning the actions of the good old USA. I DO recall you condemning the atrocities of the banking system, with which you're well-acquainted. So refresh my memory, and tell me which freedoms you think we are trampling and the injustices you think we're perpetrating.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:56 PM

1KIKI

Today, scientists sound the alarm on other environmental dangers. Vested interests still hire their own scientists to confuse the issue. But in the end, nature will not be fooled. Neil deGrasse Tyson


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
To be fair to Anthony, he often comments on the flaws and failings of the US.

I must have missed them in my time away, b/c I don't recall having read any.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 4:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

To be fair to Anthony, he often comments on the flaws and failings of the US. - MAGONS
I must have missed them in my time away, b/c I don't recall having read any.-KIKI


Yeah, me neither. Maybe I have a crappy memory. That's why I asked for a refresher.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MAGONS, 6IX: It is very easy to say that the problem is not food when you live in a nation awash in it. But the reality is that if you were to distribute food evenly across the planet and were able to eliminate most of the waste there still wouldn't be enough good food for everyone. And at THIS level of production, we're already ruining the planet.

BTW- as far as water in concerned, the biggest user of water is agriculture.... 80-90%. So a water crisis is still a food crisis- if we didn't have to produce so much food we wouldn't be running so short of water.



This is just not the problem Signy....

Many of the areas where people go hungry have ample ability to support them and their own and even run a yearly surplus.

Politics are the the problem, whether it's our "supreme" Democratic Republic politics, or the dictatorships in other countries.....



The FACT that in 2012, there is even one single starving child in the world is the end result of behind-the-scenes decisions from people in power that we couldn't even contemplate without knowing more of the full picture.

I do believe that until we figure out space travel and we know how to terraform planets, we should probably do something about the population issue......

But even still, with our knowledge of agriculture and genetics, food should NEVER be a problem, even with 7 billion mouths to feed.




Did you ever think, for a second, that the Powers that Be maybe decided the best way to curb child birth and promote abortions was to make this all the more sustainable until we can figure out a way to exploit a 3rd world..... world????


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Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But even still, with our knowledge of agriculture and genetics, food should NEVER be a problem, even with 7 billion mouths to feed.
OK, I looked it up. As it turns out, the world produces roughly 2700 Kcal per person per day's worth of food. That is enough to feed everyone, although maybe not enough to feed everyone a good diet: the typical macronutrient deficiency is protein so some of the Kcal may need to be converted to protein with the inevitable loss of conversion. In addition, the typical micronutrient deficiencies are vitamins A and D, iodine, omega-3 oil, and the amino acid taurine, all of which can best be obtained from ocean fish and seaweed. Considering we're already strip-mining the ocean (as well as strip-mining our topsoil and fresh water) that particular cupboard may be bare.

But the point of the thread was not how we can feed the planet and lay it to waste (which we're doing) but how we can feed the planet without destroying it.
Quote:

The FACT that in 2012, there is even one single starving child in the world is the end result of behind-the-scenes decisions from people in power that we couldn't even contemplate without knowing more of the full picture.
Agreed.
Quote:

Did you ever think, for a second, that the Powers that Be maybe decided the best way to curb child birth and promote abortions was to make this all the more sustainable until we can figure out a way to exploit a 3rd world..... world????
Could you rephrase that?

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 5:37 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
OK, I looked it up. As it turns out, the world produces roughly 2700 Kcal per person per day's worth of food. That is enough to feed everyone, although maybe not enough to feed everyone a good diet: the typical macronutrient deficiency is protein so some of the Kcal may need to be converted to protein with the inevitable loss of conversion. In addition, the typical micronutrient deficiencies are vitamins A and D, iodine, omega-3 oil, and the amino acid taurine, all of which can best be obtained from ocean fish and seaweed. Considering we're already strip-mining the ocean (as well as strip-mining our topsoil) that particular cupboard may be bare.

But the point of the thread was not how we can feed the planet and lay it to waste (which we're doing) but how we can feed the plant without destroying it.
Quote:

The FACT that in 2012, there is even one single starving child in the world is the end result of behind-the-scenes decisions from people in power that we couldn't even contemplate without knowing more of the full picture.
Agreed.




Signy... please... let me first bear my soul to you on this issue and let you know that I'm not fighting you....

Secondly, I LIVE in Amercia, and the rare times that I have good steak are when friends or family are buying or having a barbacue... my usual meals in the last 7 years come from Aldi, and most of them aren't with any meat that isn't included on top of cheap processed pizzas or cans of Chili.

I f-ing hate it, but since I can't to find a suitable job today even with no mortgage or rent, it's worked for me. Since nobody wants to hire me, I'm starting to feel more and more like a refugee in my own country. All the jobs a semi-genius without a degree like me could get in a snap back in the late 1990's-early 2000's are being gobbled up by graduates who can't ever hope to pay their rent and school loans with a job that would be more than sufficient for me.



This is all what vitamins are for though.... and I take plenty of them.

I dont EVER pay full price, mind you, but I often buy them in bulk when there are 3/1 offers on them. Sure, I might not be eating fish aside from Tuna, even though Tuna is a RIP OFF today!!!!, but I get my omega 3's. B-12, check, especially since I stopped smoking weed 15 months ago, this has been essential to keeping a positive outlook on life. An OVERDOSE on Vitamin C, since there is not such a thing, because of my smoking and drinking.... The only thing I've stopped taking recently was Vitamin D. With all the outside work I've been doing the last 60 or so days, my sister-in-law asked if I was changing races.

She's known me for 5 years, but I never went out in the sun much in that time. Though I may be majority Irish, but unlike my best friend who's skin explodes into 4th of July fireworks after 20 minutes, even though I'm a laughingly mix of European blood and I tan like George Hamilton.



The only way I'd be producing more Vitamin D is if I was plant based and shot Chlorophyll out my man parts.




Bottom line Signy, I live on SHIT for food. I can show you my monthly budget to grocieres to vices (smokes and booze). Overall, I spend twice what I do on vices as I do on food (thank insane "sin" taxes for that).

If smokes and booze were taxed like they were 10 years ago, I'd be eating like the "American's" you mention in this post.



Don't fret though.....

I plan on dying from some form of cancer LONG before I add to the nations deficit by being SSI age.




Two fun little facts they never tell the non-smokers.....

1) Most of us die before adding to the national debt with 62+ year life spans.....

2) Do you think we're dumb??? We know what we're dying of, and we don't need humiliating late-life violations like prostate exams paid by the taxpayer. Most smokers I know almost NEVER go to the doctor.

The way I see it, when I don't accept bladder cancer treatment like my Uncle did 2 years ago, I'm saving the tax payers at least a quarter of a million dollars. Since the 2-bit hacks at Stroger's Halfway House For Incompetent Doctors, better known as Crook County Illionois "Free" Healthcare, done right and did a full body scan after he came in pissing up blood, they might have known that it wasn't just because he had Bladder Cancer. They WOULD have told him that the cancer was EVERYWHERE, including his brain, and instead of doing a surgery that made his last 2 months miserable, they could have just given him 10 grand of taxpayer dollars and told him to have fun before he died instead of costing the taxpayers 25 times as much only to make his last 2 months agonizing.

He was a diver, well after high school, and he always jogged and was in shape. Although he smoked cigarettes and weed, he only had the occasional beer or two on special occasions. He was the healthiest 52 year old I knew.

Even Jesus Christ on the cross would have felt pity for how gaunt and withered he looked as his eyes rolled around for 4 days mindlessly before he mercifully passed and didn't have to endure the humiliation of pissing and shitting all over himself anymore......




If it wasn't a quarter of a million dollars of sub-standard free health care that were needlessly spent, I'd congratulate him on not living another 30 years of SSI payments when he only paid a fraction of what that costs today.



I don't blame him though...

I love you C....

Fuck this world.

Good for you for getting out while you could....

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh dear.

My mom, going on 90 and still alive bless her heart. But she smoked for many years and now she has emphysema and heart failure and she can't even get up out of her chair to go pee. I guess you have to die of something. A friend and I were talking about how the very elderly just kind of hung on in constant pain and humiliation or dementia, and we both agreed "Always have an exit plan".

I just hope to settle my responsibilities and do some good for the world before I go.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"The whole lesson of Batista/Castro is that trading one pig for another does nothing to benefit the Animal Farm."

Unless of course one pig makes sure all the other pigs are starving, uneducated, lack medical care, and are subject to mass torture, while the other pig is the opposite.



Hello,

The opposite?

In Cuba, there is a political elite which lives high on the hog while the populace have starved, lacked adequate medical care, are subject to torture, imprisonment, and censorship. That you see Castro as the opposite of Batista tells me that you are not in touch with the reality of the situation. Batista and Castro are just two flavors of the same metaphorical demon. You have your corrupt, oppressive Capitalist flavor and your corrupt, oppressive Communist flavor. Why condemn one and cheer the other?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:37 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quite honestly, Tony, I don't recall you condemning the actions of the good old USA. I DO recall you condemning the atrocities of the banking system, with which you're well-acquainted. So refresh my memory, and tell me which freedoms you think we are trampling and the injustices you think we're perpetrating.



Hello,

Violation of privacy, violation of free speech, violation of right to council, right to trial, right to humane treatment, right to life. Here and abroad. I have spoken out against all of these violations. I can't believe you haven't noticed. I suppose you don't read most of what I write.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You have your corrupt, oppressive Capitalist flavor and your corrupt, oppressive Communist flavor. Why condemn one and cheer the other?
TONY, let me give you my answer, altho it may not be Kiki's:

Because despite what you say about Cuba being the equivalent of the United States, or Batista being same as Castro, Cubans manage as a whole to have a rather high standard of living while being placed in economic solitary confinement. The lifespan is just as long, the education levels are better, and overall people are happy.

Or- to look at this another way- despite the fact that the USA has killed millions of brown and black-skinned people all over the world in its quest for dominance and resources, and despite the fact that the USA has amassed tremendous wealth overall, we have people dying very young for lack of simple medical care, our infant mortality sucks, we have the highest per capita murder and incarceration rate, and people are fearful of the future and isolated from each other. Which model sounds better?

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:47 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

The freedom to do what?


Hello,

Let us begin with the freedom to produce and benefit from what you produce.
Let us proceed with the freedom to oppose the government and its systems.
Let us also include the freedom to select your government and choose your representatives.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm only 32 and I live in that now....

Completely self induced lone-"wolf-ed-ness"....

I do that, because It's what I should do.

I'm an evil person when it comes to relationships......



At the same time, I feel I'm doing Mother Nature a HUGE favor, even though I get no deserved tax breaks for it....

No "implied" carbon footprint by potential future "fuck trophies"....



My only desire at this point in life is to replicate my dad's second successful marriage. I will marry a 20 year old who has a 4 year old kid and have a kid with her 4 years later.

I will then procede to makes sure that their atletic and/or acidemic abilites pay their way in the most prestegious colleges they're worthy of.

My brothers were geniuses and are now graduating and becoming teachers and Renewable Energy experts...

They owe nobody nothing


College was Free for them, thanks to my Dad....

I have nobody but myself to blame for taking my mom's i'll-equipped side when that time came.....



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh dear.

My mom, going on 90 and still alive bless her heart. But she smoked for many years and now she has emphysema and heart failure and she can't even get up out of her chair to go pee. I guess you have to die of something. A friend and I were talking about how the very elderly just kind of hung on in constant pain and humiliation or dementia, and we both agreed "Always have an exit plan".

I just hope to settle my responsibilities and do some good for the world before I go.


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Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
TONY, let me give you my answer, altho it may not be Kiki's:

Because despite what you say about Cuba being the equivalent of the United States, or Batista being same as Castro, Cubans manage as a whole to have a rather high standard of living while being placed in economic solitary confinement. The lifespan is just as long, the education levels are better, and overall people are happy.

Or- to look at this another way- despite the fact that the USA has killed millions of brown and black-skinned people all over the world in its quest for dominance and resources, and despite the fact that the USA has amassed tremendous wealth overall, we have people dying very young for lack of simple medical care, our infant mortality sucks, we have the highest per capita murder and incarceration rate, and people are fearful of the future and isolated from each other. Which model sounds better?



Hello,

I will grant you that Cuba's ability to commit murder and capture worldwide resources is far less than our own. It's also a place where highly educated and skilled professionals can't make a living in their field and are forced to engage in manual labor in order to survive. It's a place where you can't choose or change your government. It's a place where your government will imprison you, torture you, or murder you for speaking out against the president or publishing materials critical of government practices, policies, or officials. It's a place where you are very much fearful of the future and isolated from the world.

I wouldn't want Castro or Batista as Dictator in Chief of the United States, and I wouldn't trust either of them to be humane. I wouldn't trust either of them to be peaceful or spread worldwide prosperity. If you would, then I sincerely question your judgment.

My biggest fear is that the United States- whether it pursues Capitalism or Socialism- is becoming such a state where the individual is oppressed more and more, and subject to the whimsy of the powers in every way. Where the individual is losing their power to shape and choose government, to speak freely, and to live their lives as they choose without fear of death or pain inflicted on them by powers outside their control.

--Anthony









Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

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