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You believe Muslims are scary, dangerous people

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Sunday, March 4, 2012 06:08
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Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:25 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




Hello,

For some time, it has been a popular obsevation amongst some members of the citizenry that Islam is a dangerous religion, and that Muslims are dangerous people.

A favorite pasttime amongst some members of the forum is posting information on incidents where Muslims have done something very naughty.

Sometimes these pieces of information will be accompanied by statements such as, "Religion of peace, eh?" Or "See?"

Well-intentioned people may tell the rest of us that we have our collective heads up our *** and should be vigilant and wary of the ongoing Muslim threat.

Are these observations made merely to inform the wide world that sometimes bad things happen in Muslim countries? Or that certain articles of the Islamic faith are often used as an excuse to commit barbaric, terrible acts?

If so, I want to assure the concerned masses that we know. We have long known that bad things happen in Muslim countries, that some people are treated poorly there, and that no matter how majestic the scenery, we probably don't want to build our retirement homes there.

If that is all that is being communicated, I want you to know: Message Received.

But if there is something more... if this is more than a mere FYI: Some Muslims do bad things.... then I'd like to know.

What's the message? What should we conclude or do based on your information?

What are you advocating?

Let us imagine something that lies well beyond the truth. Let us imagine that the Muslim people, as a whole, hate us.

Let's pretend that every Muslim on Earth is wearing a T-Shirt that says on the front, "I HATE YOU" and on the back "WISH YOU WERE DEAD."

Let's pretend that every Muslim country was filled to the brim, without a single exception, with evil, hateful individuals who seek only excuses to oppress, torture, and kill.

If this were true...

Then what? What are you advocating? What do you want us to do?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner



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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Anthony.

You could just as well have titled this post, "You believe Republicans (or Democrats, or Christian Fundamentalists, or Socialists, or what-have-you) are scary, dangerous people".

In case you haven't noticed, there are members of this forum who come here pretty much daily, and engage in their favorite pastime of ranting about something they consider bad that some Republican (or Democrat, or Christian Fundamentalist, or Socialist, or what-have-you) has done, and then tarring all Republicans (or Democrats, or Christian Fundamentalists, or Socialists, or what-have-you) with that same brush.

Should they all stop because we already know that some Republicans (or Democrats, or Christian Fundamentalists, or Socialists, or what-have-you) have done something very naughty?

Do Muslims have some special dispensation from criticism for doing something very naughty that Republicans (or Democrats, or Christian Fundamentalists, or Socialists, or what-have-you) don't have?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:56 PM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


I believe a lot of Muslims are capable of scary dangerous stuff, as do many, many of the armed forces... and people sitting in cafes... and planes...and busses...and...

Not saying others aren't as capable of stupid and dangerous, but that the percentages of inevitability based on past example is what is the worrysome thang...

I'd still give 'em half a chance to get to know 'em, but the back of my head would prolly always be saying "sleeper cell??" Ya just never really know, do ya? And THAT is the scariest thing of all.........

I advocate caution, but I advocate that all the time!


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


But it isn't true.....

I don't like fanatics of any description. I don't like people who preach hatred of others. I'll try my damndest to make sure they don't get into power where I live. I don't want to do business with them. I don't want my government to support them or do business with them. I'll argue against those who preach hatred and intolerance.

I want people who commit violent crimes against other people to be prosecuted.

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Here's an interesting perspective on problems and priorities...



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 3:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's an interesting perspective on problems and priorities...



Which, as usual, has pretty much nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's an interesting perspective on problems and priorities...



Which, as usual, has pretty much nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Glad I'm not the only one who notices such things.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:24 AM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Kwicko, don't bother...he word perspective doesn't mean so much to everybody

I think he's trying to say that if they aren't so scary and dangerous why would we have spent as much money on fighting them as we do on other things that routinely kill us...like cancer.

to infer...to draw conclusions by reasoning....


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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's an interesting perspective on problems and priorities...



Which, as usual, has pretty much nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Glad to know you think the "war on terror" has nothing to do with Muslims.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Kwicko, don't bother...he word perspective doesn't mean so much to everybody

I think he's trying to say that if they aren't so scary and dangerous why would we have spent as much money on fighting them as we do on other things that routinely kill us...like cancer.

to infer...to draw conclusions by reasoning....




Yup. There are things we really SHOULD be worried about, and really SHOULD be spending money trying to defeat: Cancer, AIDS, global climate change, deforestation, poverty, etc. Islam isn't even on the list, unless you're Rappy or Geezer, and can point and scream about the scary "other" that we should all be terrified of.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Do Muslims have some special dispensation from criticism for doing something very naughty that Republicans (or Democrats, or Christian Fundamentalists, or Socialists, or what-have-you) don't have?


Hello,

You know this post I've posted?

You know the part where I say a particular group has a special dispensation from criticism?

Yeah, the part that isn't there?

That's the part you're speaking to.

Now here's the question I asked:

"What do you advocate? What do you want us to do?"

So far I've got:

1) Be cautious like always.
2) Prosecute those who commit crimes.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:56 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

1) Be cautious like always.
2) Prosecute those who commit crimes.


The Saudi embassy is tampering with my witness. It's a domestic violence case between two Saudi nationals.

They are breaking the law to protect a man who beat his wife. It pisses me off that they are doing it and even more that I can't do anything about it.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 5:00 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

You know this post I've posted?

You know the part where I say a particular group has a special dispensation from criticism?

Yeah, the part that isn't there?

That's the part you're speaking to.



Not really.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Republicans.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Democrats.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Christian Fundamentialists.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Socialists.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of what-have-you.

I'm speaking to the part where you haven't gone into this long litany of questions about the meaning behind a post except when it criticises Muslims.

I'm wondering what, in your mind, makes Muslims require this special consideration?

I'm especially wondering about this since criticism of Muslims actually appears less regularly here than criticism of many other groups.

Also, I'm wondering what, if anything, you would do about the naughty things some Muslims do.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2012 5:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

You know this post I've posted?

You know the part where I say a particular group has a special dispensation from criticism?

Yeah, the part that isn't there?

That's the part you're speaking to.



Not really.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Republicans.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Democrats.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Christian Fundamentialists.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of Socialists.

I'm speaking to the part where you don't make similar posts about criticisism of what-have-you.

I'm speaking to the part where you haven't gone into this long litany of questions about the meaning behind a post except when it criticises Muslims.

I'm wondering what, in your mind, makes Muslims require this special consideration?

I'm especially wondering about this since criticism of Muslims actually appears less regularly here than criticism of many other groups.

Also, I'm wondering what, if anything, you would do about the naughty things some Muslims do.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Hello Geezer,

When someone complains about Republicans, Democrats, or fundamentalists, or socialists, they often, if not usually, include 'what they'd like to do about it.'

For instance, Frem would like to feed Christian fundamentalists to the lions. Republicans want to politically oppose Democratic and Socialist policies by campaigning and voting against them.

Most of the people who complain about these things are complaining about people in our nation and they are talking about opposing them with political movements and votes.

Some of the people who complain about these things are talking about socialist countries, and I can often be found asking the same questions there about, What are you saying we should do about it?

Few, if any of the people who complain about these things are talking about hateful republican/democratic nations.

For my own part, I've already spoken extensively about how I'd handle hate and intolerance in my own country, and how I'd handle situations with other countries full of Muslims who may hate and despise us.

So, if your question is, "Why do I have a special interest in the Muslim situation?" The answer is, "People often say bad things about Muslims, but don't suggest a course of action."

When people say bad things about any other group, they usually have long established ideas about what to do about it.

I've been concerned for a long time about which courses of action the anti-Muslim crowd might advocate, but so few have actually said what those actions are, that I can't speak to them.

Clear enough?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:22 AM

BYTEMITE


I have such a good friend who's Muslim. She's like the nicest person ever and it's completely unironic. She's over in Japan right now because she loves the anime and manga, so getting a job over there was kind of a dream opportunity.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Hero: sometimes, I imagine that you're Batman. But with lawyering.

Maybe if she could be convinced to run away to a battered wives shelter, even if the legal case doesn't go the right way.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have such a good friend who's Muslim. She's like the nicest person ever and it's completely unironic. She's over in Japan right now because she loves the anime and manga, so getting a job over there was kind of a dream opportunity.



Hello,

The only Muslim I ever knew well was a coworker of mine when I dispatched security at Jackson Memorial. He was a guard there. Big bushy beard, barrel-chested, deep voice. Carried the Quran at work to read on his breaks, prayed regularly.

He lent me an English translation, which was my only exposure to the actual words of his holy scripture.

An opinionated fellow, though very polite.

This was before September 11th, and I've often wondered what his experiences and opinions were like after that day. Sadly, we fell out of touch when I stopped working at Jackson.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hero: sometimes, I imagine that you're Batman. But with lawyering.



Hello,

That's called Daredevil.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Maybe if she could be convinced to run away to a battered wives shelter, even if the legal case doesn't go the right way.



Hello,

Agreed. Removing her from the violence is primary. Even if punishing the wicked doesn't work, at least you can save the victim.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That's called Daredevil.


!

Neeeat, so it's like this whole metaphor for blind justice. I am all about the metaphors!

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Friday, February 24, 2012 7:20 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's an interesting perspective on problems and priorities...



Which, as usual, has pretty much nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Id say there's a pretty direct correlation to anyone who's head is not buried in a pile of Mulsim-hatin sand.



"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, February 24, 2012 7:49 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

What are you advocating?

Excellent question.

You won't get an answer.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ran across a bit I think worthy of discussion if you DO wanna whine about Muslim jackasses where the Muslim part has anything whatever to DO with the jackassery, cause you know them two things ain't necessarily related...

More ironic is that this comes from the State of PA, in an area where I've been working also against Christian extremism poisoning the local juvie justice system, and for a fact I've no problem whatever with busting the chops of any other religious extremism which don't belong in our courts anyways.

But really, what it offers is an REAL, as opposed to bullshit-manufactured, case of someone of that faith abusing legal/political authority within this country, which is factually damn rare.

Pennsylvania Judge Throws Out Charge For Harassing Atheist While Calling The Victim A Doofus
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/02/24/pennsylvania-judge-throws-out-cha
rge-for-harassing-atheist-while-calling-the-victim-a-doofus/#more-45795


So here it is, put up or shut up.
Those whining about their pretend and manufactured outrages, now you have a real one, thrown right in your face, by me.

AND. THEN. WHAT.

That... is my question.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Well, this is clearly an outrage against Liberty, and one given the force of law. There should be immediate calls for the Judge to be thrown off the bench, and escalating protests against the judicial system if that fails to happen.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:58 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hero: sometimes, I imagine that you're Batman. But with lawyering.

Maybe if she could be convinced to run away to a battered wives shelter, even if the legal case doesn't go the right way.


Kids. They have two kids and in any divorce or seperation Saudi law gives him custody and she has no standing to contest it.

Yes, the kids are in America, however, the US is bound by the international child custody treaties which reserves jurisdiction on child custody issues to the home country.

Here is what a saw. A thoughtful and intelligent young woman seeking an advanced degree in statitstics who was married to an abusive, unemployed pig. Regardless of its other benefits, that is the face of Islam and until they can change that aspect of their culture...their culture and its supporting religeon must and should be opposed.

Islam has a cancer and its time to either get the knife and do some hard cutting or else put the old fella out of its misery. It took a Civil War to rid America of its own cancer and the reformation to cut the worst abuse out of Christianity. Some Muslim fella (or woman) needs to walk up to her local mosque and hammer reform right into the front door.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

that is the face of Islam and until they can change that aspect of their culture...their culture and its supporting religeon must and should be opposed.


Hello,

In what way specifically must it be opposed?

Quote:

Some Muslim fella (or woman) needs to walk up to her local mosque and hammer reform right into the front door.


This, specifically and narrowly this, I agree with wholeheartedly.

--Anthony




_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:22 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
In what way specifically must it be opposed?


The American Civil War did not start overnight...I'd start with yelling and work my way up to war...how far we get depends on them.

Maybe some fella needs to train a couple dozen Muslim women to fight and lead a "John Brown" on some armory in Saudi Arabia hoping to incite servile insurrection. But I'd start with "hey buddy, you don't hit girls". Islam is a 6th Century problem...solutions back then tended to be violent (and effective), I don't think our 21st Century hopey-changey stuff is gonna solve their problem.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
In what way specifically must it be opposed?


The American Civil War did not start overnight...I'd start with yelling and work my way up to war...how far we get depends on them.

Maybe some fella needs to train a couple dozen Muslim women to fight and lead a "John Brown" on some armory in Saudi Arabia hoping to incite servile insurrection. But I'd start with "hey buddy, you don't hit girls". Islam is a 6th Century problem...solutions back then tended to be violent (and effective), I don't think our 21st Century hopey-changey stuff is gonna solve their problem.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.




Hello,

So, here we have some new suggestions to add to the previous list.

1) Tell people they're being bad.

2) Give aid to revolutionaries/insurrectionists.

3) Go to war.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:35 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Some Muslim fella (or woman) needs to walk up to her local mosque and hammer reform right into the front door.


I think Islamic radicalism may well recede in the coming decades (especially if the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is resolved). There've been times and places in history when the Islamic world has been quite moderate. But I don't think we'll ever see an Islamic 'Reformation'.

Oh and of course, going to war would increase radicalisation in the Muslim world, as it did last time.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I like to think a Reformation is not only possible, but inevitable. However, it is something that must come from within. Imposition from without would taint the effort and build resistance.

Which leads me to the issue of war. Aiding rebellion and engaging in war are identical from the perspective of the opposition. It only makes a difference to us, in terms of how many of our own lives we put at risk and in what way.

But this is the first time I have seen the suggestion openly made on this forum that we should go to war with the aim of altering people's religion and/or culture, and changing their laws to suit our moral standards. I wonder if any other people feel this way, or whether Hero is alone in this suggestion?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:44 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I think he's angry about his case, and is venting.

Quote:

I like to think a Reformation is not only possible, but inevitable.

I disagree, but I hope you're right.

The only hope I see is in a rise in other moderating forces, such as democracy, prosperity and of course, peace (especially in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Go to war with who? The entire Islamic world? I think we need a whole BUNCH of new wars, let's wipe 'em out: "Nuke 'em. Nuke 'em one and all" to quote my husband (in jest). Sounds like it's not jest to some here...and too many in our government.

Yeah, let's have World War III, sounds good to me. THAT would certainly solve the "Muslim Problem".

I believe Evangelical extremists are scary, dangerous people, and I CAN do something about that--so can you, so can all of us. I believe Muslim extremists are scary, dangerous people, and if any of them do anything here, I'll stand up, I'll help anyone fighting them. But that doesn't mean I think ALL Muslims or ALL Evangelicals are scary and dangerous or that I'm willing to hate them all.

As for "religion of peace" said in snarky tone, I'll give you back Christianity as "That lovely religion of peace" which is attacking our citizens right now, right here in America, and which will become bolder and bolder if not stopped. Who ever believed doctors would be assassinated, women would be forceably "raped" with instruments, Catholicism and Mormonism would be called CULTS publicly? Oh, and hey, who ever would have believed that legally elected officials would be put aside, ALL elected officials, and replaced by a one-man "government" who could do exactly as he chose? That's trouble has already HAPPENED, Trouble right here in River City, with a capital "T", and that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool! (couldn't resist)

That song, by the way, starts out "Well, either you're closing your eyes to a situation you do not wish to acknowledge or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated". I give you religious oppression, religious extremism, that's happening right here in our own country, about which you who are focused on religious extremists thousands of miles away are hiding your heads in the sand!

And obviously, Anthony, I'm not of a mind with him, and not at ALL of a mind to go to war. How about we start knocking on our own religious-extremists-churches doors first? It would end in war, at least!

Times will definitely change, other powers will rise...hey, how about China taking over America, so religion ITSELF is banned? About as realistic as Muslim countries banding together to take over America and force Islam on us, isn't it?



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Friday, February 24, 2012 10:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So, if your question is, "Why do I have a special interest in the Muslim situation?" The answer is, "People often say bad things about Muslims, but don't suggest a course of action."



So?

Perhaps these people don't have a course of action in mind, aside from "watch out for these people, since quite a number of them seem willing to kill anyone who offends their religious beliefs."

Really not much we can do about courts in Iran condemning folks to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be appalled at such actions.

Not much we can do about the Sunni's in Iraq setting off car bombs outside Shia schools. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look with disgust upon the folks who would specifically target children.

Not much we can do about a family in Afghanistan killing a daughter to preserve their "honor", with the local religious authorities approval. Doesn't mean we shouldn't question the morality of such actions.

Just because you don't have an answer to a problem doesn't mean it's not a problem, or that it shouldn't be pointed out.

In the U.S. where our laws do apply, we can move to convince leaders in the Muslim community to stand up against "honor" killings, prosecute the family members involved in such killings to the fullest extent of the law, and file accessory charges against religious leaders who aided or encouraged such actions.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 24, 2012 10:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

So? Perhaps these people don't have a course of action in mind, aside from "watch out for these people, since quite a number of them seem willing to kill anyone who offends their religious beliefs."


Perhaps they don't have anything in mind. That's why I'm asking. To find out. It's like when someone says, "I don't want a nuclear Iran" and I say, "Uh huh. What do you suggest?" Maybe they suggest nothing. Maybe they suggest something. The conversation is shaped thusly.

I already have one response calling for War. That's an interesting conversation starter, and very different from, "Watch out for these people, since quite a number of them seem willing to kill anyone who offends their religious beliefs."

Quote:

Really not much we can do about courts in Iran condemning folks to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be appalled at such actions.


In addition to the horrors I see every day in my homeland, I have noticed that much of the world is consumed by a litany of reprehensible activity the likes of which would scar the mind and tear the heart if dwelled upon. Some of this activity happens in Muslim countries, and it is terrible. But there IS something we can do. Several somethings. See above. We can speak against the horrors, aid insurgents, and wage wars. A wide variety of proposed activity.

Quote:

Not much we can do about the Sunni's in Iraq setting off car bombs outside Shia schools. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look with disgust upon the folks who would specifically target children.


It is disgusting wherever it happens. But again, we already have proposals about what to do!

Quote:

Not much we can do about a family in Afghanistan killing a daughter to preserve their "honor", with the local religious authorities approval. Doesn't mean we shouldn't question the morality of such actions.



I join you in finding such actions of questionable moral content. But again, there IS something we can do.

Quote:

Just because you don't have an answer to a problem doesn't mean it's not a problem, or that it shouldn't be pointed out.



That's a fine observation. I have observed that some people who point out problems aren't merely recoiling in horror, but priming for action or suggesting a philosophy. I find some actions and philosophies worthy of analysis and discussion. So I ask. Are you just observing the unceasing stream of human misery and pain aloud... or are you suggesting something?

Quote:


In the U.S. where our laws do apply, we can move to convince leaders in the Muslim community to stand up against "honor" killings, prosecute the family members involved in such killings to the fullest extent of the law, and file accessory charges against religious leaders who aided or encouraged such actions.



Yes! We can do these things, and have actually done so before. I remember the Manson case in particular as being poignant to your statement.

So, you propose using our laws to prosecute crimes whenever they occur, and to discourage their repetition? That's an idea I can get on board with. Thank you for sharing.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 10:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Amazing the selective memory people have.

Okay, there's ALREADY a front in Afghanistan currently pulling that stunt, the NFA (New Fedayeen Army), which is basically a pack of female terrorists using the same tactics, which no one cottoned on to immediately cause they set it up so the male factions would suspect each other, many of the so-called Burkha Bombings come from this source, and while I might have had sympathy for them given that the NFA is comprised of women - their intentions are not laudable in that all they really seem to want is to switch roles and continue the oppression with them on top.
Small that they are, they'd not be a problem if SOMEONE wasn't providing them with military hardware, but in comparison to the rest of the disaster that country has become they're but a mere pinprick.
Anyways, it's a damn bad idea and in the end solves nothing.

Which is why I support RAWA even though that puts me at some risk since I figure eventually the State Dept is going to label them "terrorists" as a sop to whichever pack of fundamentalist pricks we're supporting at the time in exchange for looting their country and fueling the war machine.

Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)
http://www.rawa.org/

Of course, no one ever seems to wanna talk about that, and those few that do, well, talk is cheap.

How you can help
http://www.rawa.org/help.htm

Amazon Requirements List
http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1FQ7ZTOVB3XI3/ref=wl_web

Now watch this thread dissappear to the bottom, under a flood of more manufactured outrage, or this post be completely as ignored as every other time I have brought this up.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 11:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I just finished reading up on RAWA on wikipedia. If anyone wants to empower change and help improve the treatment of women in Afghanistan, RAWA would appear to be a worthy organization to support.

Do you know of similar organizations in other Muslim countries, Frem?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 11:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Man, I don't know what's up with other atheists. I mean, sure, I harassed the churchy kids while I was in high school, but then I realized it was kind of silly to be all "I'm right, blah blah blah, even though there's no evidence one way or another."

Now I mostly just terminate the logic strands whenever someone brings up...

Huh. I'm not sure how to describe it. Anyway.

It is time for candy.


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Friday, February 24, 2012 12:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Kids. They have two kids and in any divorce or seperation Saudi law gives him custody and she has no standing to contest it.

Yes, the kids are in America, however, the US is bound by the international child custody treaties which reserves jurisdiction on child custody issues to the home country.



I wonder at this, but I would have to know more about the case. If the children are in America, and the family live in America, then they would be subject to American law, unless they reside in the embassy, in which case Saudi law would have jurisdiction.

Is Saudi Arabia a signatory of the Hague Convention? I don't believe it is, in which case, you have nothing to compel you to recognise their laws regarding custody.

Quote:

Here is what a saw. A thoughtful and intelligent young woman seeking an advanced degree in statitstics who was married to an abusive, unemployed pig.


I see stuff like that every day of my working life. And I see the abusive pig paying big shot lawyers to gain the upper hand and the abused spouse then having to deal with the abuser endlessly while she hands over the children so they can spend time with their father. Welcome to the world of family law in a progressive, secular western nation.


Quote:

Regardless of its other benefits, that is the face of Islam and until they can change that aspect of their culture...their culture and its supporting religeon must and should be opposed.

Islam has a cancer and its time to either get the knife and do some hard cutting or else put the old fella out of its misery. It took a Civil War to rid America of its own cancer and the reformation to cut the worst abuse out of Christianity. Some Muslim fella (or woman) needs to walk up to her local mosque and hammer reform right into the front door.



So the path seems clear. You can continue to wage expensive wars with Muslim nations to force them to abandon their religion of choice and replace it with christianity or secularism. Good luck with that one. Secondly you can prevent muslims in your country from practising their faith, and forcing them to adopt christianity or secular lifestyles, which is probably unconstitutional, but as you sound like a raving great fascist, I'm sure that doesn't bother you.


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Friday, February 24, 2012 1:24 PM

OONJERAH



Personal Responsibility has raised its usually lazy head here, so I must leave for a bit.

I do have a sound answer to the Islamic problem, one that does not involve wars or hate.

In the past, I have seen a news commentator in Egypt I think it was. His idea was that the Arab world needs
separation of church and state. The main risk there is to the commentator himself. This would be the slow
but proper way to make the changes: self-determination.

I'll try to find & post something about this when I get back.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 1:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

This would be the slow but proper way to make the changes: self-determination.


Hello,

I agree, the evolution of society must have an internal impetus. It is only rarely able to be imposed from outside, and then only at staggering cost- a combination of money, blood, and moral outrages.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 1:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Do you know of similar organizations in other Muslim countries, Frem?


None that won't get you the Salma Al-Rushaid treatment for donating to them...

See, one of the favors we do for whatever radical nutjob we happen to be propping up this week is label his opponents "terrorists", which has on occasion lead to americans or foreign nationals being arrested, deported, and so on, just for donating to a charity that's suddenly become politically inconvenient - which is what I have major concerns about with RAWA even though most of my support while material is done by proxy or anonymously, to the point of wiping down office equipment to ensure no fingerprints are left before shipment.

Now while they haven't pulled that gig with RAWA, our forces HAVE bombed several of their schools and facilities when dickheads we're supporting pointed them out as supposed terrorist training camps, even when we KNEW different, in order to keep them "on our side", such as they are, and there's often communication problems cause their few english speakers/translators tend to get capped at an alarming rate sufficient to convince me both the radical wackjobs and our forces have been targetting them on purpose.

Long and short of all that, besides the inherent danger in supporting folks like RAWA politically, and legally - is that it doesn't really MATTER if we support one radical fundamentalist nutjob over another militarily, that won't change a goddamn thing except which of em currently hold the reins of power, and every time we've tried it it's been a disaster.

We *should* be supporting RAWA and the like, but see there's this little problem, they tend towards self-determination, and are unwilling to let us loot and exploit their country, and they will stand up to US as quick as anyone else who infringes on their human rights, freedoms, and sovereignity - ergo, to the corporate war machine, they're "useless" and better off dead cause they're in the way of looting the place via a propped up punk like Kharazi who can be depended on to look the other way so long as we keep him in power, you see ?

So it comes down to it, you know who the primary supporter of these radical fundamentalist islamic fucks is ?

US.

That's right, the good ole US of A, we arm em, train em, point em at our enemies, smack em down when they aim at us, and use them as a handy excuse to keep up the booga-booga, to feed the war machine, to enable the christofascists here to have THEIR way, and all the powers that be giggle about it on both sides while us peons get sent to kill each other just to keep the game going.

But nobody wants to talk about THAT, either.

Best case would be pulling our troops (and their goddamn crusader mindset) out completely, and backing up RAWA with about a hundred thousand multinationally composed UN peacekeepers armed to the teeth with an aggressive RoE.

But then how would we feed the war machine which enriches the powerful, eh ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Not much we can do about the Sunni's in Iraq setting off car bombs outside Shia schools. Doesn't mean we shouldn't look with disgust upon the folks who would specifically target children.




The U.S. government specifically targets children.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yes, Anthony, as a matter of fact... I do.

And now, it's worse than you know. A lot worse.

Muslim Admits to Attacking Atheist; Muslim Judge Dismisses Case

By Al Stefanelli

The Pennsylvania State Director of American Atheists, Inc., Mr. Ernest Perce V., was assaulted by a Muslim while participating in a Halloween parade. Along with a Zombie Pope, Ernest was costumed as Zombie Muhammad. The assault was caught on video, the Muslim man admitted to his crime and charges were filed in what should have been an open-and-shut case. That’s not what happened, though.

The defendant is an immigrant and claims he did not know his actions were illegal, or that it was legal in this country to represent Muhammad in any form. To add insult to injury, he also testified that his 9 year old son was present, and the man said he felt he needed to show his young son that he was willing to fight for his Prophet.

The case went to trial, and as circumstances would dictate, Judge Mark Martin is also a Muslim. What transpired next was surreal. The Judge not only ruled in favor of the defendant, but called Mr. Perce a name and told him that if he were in a Muslim country, he’d be put to death. Judge Martin’s comments included,


So, here in the US, we have freedom of almost anything, but not freedom to piss off Muslims.

The HELL with that!!!



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Mr. Raptor,

It appears that you missed the fact that Frem posted about this story already, and I responded to it.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:18 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Auraptor: "So, here in the US, we have freedom of almost anything, but not freedom to piss off Muslims."

The judge knowlingly broke the law, IMO. Eventual recall/loss of job seems likely.

Today on Faux-News: "The ruling has been characterized as 'completely and unequivocally unacceptable' in a blog
posting by the American Atheists.That group released what it said was audio of Martin lecturing Perce about
religious tolerance.

"That a Muslim immigrant can assault a United States citizen in defense of his religious beliefs and walk away a
free man, while the victim is chastised and insulted by a Muslim judge who then blamed the victim for the crime
committed against him is a horrible abrogation," the posting reads. " … I can promise you this, you have not heard
the last of this issue. Not by a long shot." =>
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/24/pennsylvania-judge-reportedly-dis
misses-harassment-charge-against-zombie/#ixzz1nM7ChDzt



"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:38 PM

OONJERAH


I thought it'd be easy to find common people in the less extremist Islamic countries talking about separation of
religion and state.
Wrong. I failed. It's been quite uphill. A lot of Middle Eastern people want it. Turkey has it. But it still looks
a long way off. For people to embrace the principle, they have to be reassured, even as people in the USA were after
the Revolution, that their right to religious freedom would be protected under the law.
_____________

Dr. Jaafar Sheikh Idris: "So how are Muslims to approach the modern trend of separation of religion and state in
their countries? The basic belief in Islam is that the Qur'an is one hundred percent the word of God, and the Sunna
was also as a result of the guidance of God to the Prophet peace be upon him. Islam cannot be separated from the
state because it guides Muslims through every detail of running the state and their lives. Muslims have no choice
but to reject secularism for it excludes the laws of God."
_____________

Bernard Lewis, The Political Language of Islam, 1988: "In classical Islam there was no distinction between
Church and state. In Christendom the existence of two authorities goes back to the founder, who enjoined his followers
to render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and to God the things which are God's. Throughout the history of
Christendom there have been two powers: God and Caesar ..."

"That is not so in the Islamic world. It was never so in the past, and the attempt in modern times to make it so may
perhaps be seen, in the longer perspective of history, as an unnatural aberration which in Iran has ended and in some
other Islamic countries may also be nearing its end."
_____________

The Advantage to Islam Of Mosque-State Separation
by Alexander Benard => http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/5735
"Recent surveys indicate that the populations of many major Muslim-majority countries are almost evenly divided on
such hot-button issues as whether Shari’a should serve as the primary foundation for laws and whether clerics should
be involved in political questions. These new data challenge previously held assumptions about the values and attitudes
of Muslim publics concerning mosque-state separation. ...

"In the battle between supporters and opponents of mosque-state separation, there can be little doubt that the Islamic
fundamentalists are currently winning. Most countries in the region do not separate religious and political authority.
The Saudi Arabian constitution, for example, declares that it is the state’s duty to protect Islam and implement Shari’a.
The result is a country where a typical year sees roughly 50 public beheadings, many for petty crimes such as marijuana
possession ... In 2004, a mentally handicapped 16-year-old girl was hanged in public for 'crimes against chastity.' ...

"A separate survey, conducted in Iraq in 2004, around the time the country’s new constitution was being adopted, asked
whether religion should have a special role to play in government.4 Forty-nine percent answered that 'religion and government
should respect one another by not impeding on the rights, roles, and responsibilities of the other.' By contrast, only 42
percent answered 'yes.' A more recent poll found that 55 percent of Muslims in Iraq now strongly agree that Iraq would be a
better place if religion and politics were separated. ...

"Islamic conservatives, who remain powerful in Muslim-majority countries, will ensure that an approach perceived as hostile
toward religion will generate a backlash. The American approach is therefore instructive because it demonstrates, in the
context of a conservative society, the value of focusing on how disestablishment benefits religion. Islamic moderates,
similarly, must build a convincing case that mosque-state separation, coupled with full religious freedom, is actually
advantageous for religion."
_____________

Separation of Church and State in Turkey--Where Islam Meets the West => http://danidebold.hubpages.com/hub/church_and_state-turkey

"Of the many nations that adhere to separation of church and state, Turkey is arguably one of the most fascinating—and unique--
examples of modern secularism.

"Although Turkey has an almost completely homogeneous religious identity, it operates under a secular government. While
the non-diverse religious population arouses the strange question for the necessity of church and state separation, it is
even more peculiar that 99% of this religiously uniform population is Muslim. It is truly unique for a country that is
dominated by a Muslim population to have a secular form of government since most modern Islamic countries tend to embrace
a theocratic government. This is due to the fact that traditionally, 'Islam enjoined the unity of State and Muslim community'
which in turn resulted in religion and state being considered 'one and the same entity.' That is to say, Islam has historically
always been 'equated with the State' (Heper). For this reason, it is quite clear that Turkey, as a country that embraces
secularism, is quite unique amongst Muslim-dominated countries. In fact, Turkey is the only country in the world besides
Senegal that has both a dominant Islamic population as well as a secular government not operating under Sharia law."
______________

What is the separation of church and state like in Muslim countries? Nader Hashemi




"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:58 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Maybe they don't to separate their religion from the state? Is it not up to up to other countries to run them as they see fit?

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Friday, February 24, 2012 10:36 PM

OONJERAH


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Maybe they don't to separate their religion from the state? Is it not up to up to other countries to run them as they see fit?


            ¿Qué?.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I responding to your post that you were unable to find much evidence of Islamic countries who do not separate religion from the state, and I then posted what I did. Maybe separation of the two is our ideal , our belief, and maybe the majority of muslim people do not hold that ideal.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:55 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Oonjerah: "I do have a sound answer to the Islamic problem, one that does not involve wars or hate.
In the past, I have seen a news commentator in Egypt I think it was. His idea was that the Arab world needs
separation of church and state."
(Having an answer & implementing it can be two different things.)

It was years ago, sometime after we invaded Iraq, & perhaps it was an Islamic person talking to a reporter.
Recalling that, I wanted to explore this line: Common Islamic people talking about separation of religion and state.

Anthony asks, "What are you advocating? What do you want us to do?"
I was responding.
AM I advocating that the USA should force separation of church and state on them as we did in Iraq? NO. It doesn't work.
You cannot legislate what a person will believe; the most you can do is attempt to brainwash them.
I feel the Middle East would have more peace and unity with separation of church and state. They are familiar with
the concept, but it is hard for most of them to conceive of such a change as harmonious with their faith.
I think we should get out of there and let the idea percolate.
It works for the Turks.
It must be terribly hard to export our notions of freedom and human rights when we do not practice it there.

What's your answer, MD?


Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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