REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

About American religions

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 06:14
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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:30 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
Catholicism in particular allows you to repent on your deathbed and God will absolve you of everything; to me that concept is horrific.


And again, what's so bad about that? Does this hypothetical persons punishment in the afterlife really benefit anyone here on earth or anywhere else? That forgiveness is kinda central to Christianity. Forgiveness is for everyone, not just our favorites, or the ones we feel deserve it, but everyone who repents. Seeing as how none of us really deserve that, who are we to judge who should and shouldn't be absolved?

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
I have freedom to choose how I act. It is an awesome and terrible freedom, but I've hammered out my morals and do not fear the accounting as long as I don't lose sight of my moral north star.
Quote:
I have no fear of losing my way in the moral wilderness as long as I don't follow another man's path blindly.
MOST excellent, Hardware; I would count you as a "true" believer in whatever faith you follow, as long as those things are true.

My argument is that, for far too many people, they are not. Organized religions, as I said, make it far too easy for those who would do so to give in to the worst of themselves and rationalize it by it being "God's" position, and those who follow what the humans say who supposedly "interpret" the word of God FOR them, and who feel superior to those of other religions as a result of their chosen faith's teachings. AND who hammer others to be "saved"...I've been the victim of that more times than I can count, and it offends me, even tho' I understand what's behind it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off


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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooops, cross-posting.

It's not about what benefits anyone else, it's that I've seen an awful lot of people who are quite happy to think, talk and behave in ways that in no way reflect their faith, and some of them know that, no matter what they do, they'll get absolution by repenting at the last minute. Not the majority, mind you, and some not even consciously, but it's a fact.

It's not about forgiveness in that respect; their being forgiven or not is nothing to anyone else. It's about those who don't feel responsible for their own actions/words, the "out" that gives them. About the harm they do to OTHERS because of that willingness to ignore their "moral compass", or even GET one! How many consider themselves Christian because their parents were, then never give it another thought? For me, that's less true of buddhists because most of us here in American CHOSE to be buddhist, which means we put a lot of thought into it. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

Am I not communicating well? Because the concept that others' actions and absolution has anything to do with ME personally isn't one I was debating; the idea that those I judge worthy of forgiveness are the only ones who should be forgiven also has nothing to do with it. Remember, I'm buddhist--there IS no "forgiveness" except our own RECOGNITION of doing wrong and ACCEPTANCE of ourselves for doing it, then going on to try and do better. Big difference between acceptance and forgiveness.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off


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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:09 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Oh, sorry, when you said the concept was horrific I took that as a judgment... that the concept was... horrific, lol

I'm glad you clarified though. Just to be clear, that whole forgiveness and repentance, the idea is a benevolent and omniscient/omnipresent God's going to know if your intentions are true. It's not just 'Hey bro, let me stay at your place, I don't wanna go to hell.' There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.

On the deathbed hypothetical, well... I certainly wouldn't want to play with fire like that, waiting for the last moment to ask for forgiveness. How can you really be sure you'll die slowly enough or with enough advanced notice to seek absolution right? Not to mention how if you believed enough to seek forgiveness you'd probably realize what was wrong with your actions. I don't buy it, if this kind of behavior happens at all it must be exceedingly rare.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 11:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well Hardware, you gotta understand, mocking religion is in a sense PART of my religion.

I am Shadow Vajrayana, Path of Diamond Shield, and this comes with a morality damn near incomprehensible to most westerners - breaking the rules *IS* the rules, what is held most dear is mocked and that which is insignificant is regarded with grave seriousness tho it might be.

Everytime I even TRY to explain it everyone but maybe Anthony and HKCav wind up with this befuddled expression and somewhere between vague unease and total confusion.

So I generally go with trope-shorthand.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryAmoralReligion

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:01 PM

MOCKROMANCER


Not one of the religions noted in the wikipedia page are American. Not one. Maybe you should change the title of this post. If not, I can never take anything you post serious. Peace out.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:12 PM

HARDWARE


Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well Hardware, you gotta understand, mocking religion is in a sense PART of my religion.

I am Shadow Vajrayana, Path of Diamond Shield, and this comes with a morality damn near incomprehensible to most westerners - breaking the rules *IS* the rules, what is held most dear is mocked and that which is insignificant is regarded with grave seriousness tho it might be.

Everytime I even TRY to explain it everyone but maybe Anthony and HKCav wind up with this befuddled expression and somewhere between vague unease and total confusion.

So I generally go with trope-shorthand.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryAmoralReligion

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.


Sounds a bit like the North American Indian Coyote path.

But mocking something and making fun of it can be questioning the basis of it, or the practice of it. That distinction marks if you are deriding the institution or the people propagating it.

One of them should always be called into question. The other does not suffer for the questioning. But I'll leave it for you to decide which is which.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think such a survey would be much better if you ask participants to self identify what religeon or bbelief system they follow, that way it will be more precise. Maybe for the really specific ones one should say it more generally, like saying Pagan instead of listing one's preferred deity from days of yore for instance. But that way someone could write atheist or agnostic instead of "unafiliated" which doesn't tell me much.

I don't think one can debunk the atheists in foxwholes theory because everyone will have a different experience when under pressure like that, so sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.

Happy, I like your thoughts on death bed conversions, why not?

Of course I believe that we shouldn't just wreek havoc and then say, "oh well, God will forgive me", just because he'll do it doesn't mean we should act like that and we shouldn't put him to the test like that, not our place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 4:55 AM

DREAMTROVE


True, many Christians are unaffiliated.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:


But mocking something and making fun of it can be questioning the basis of it, or the practice of it. That distinction marks if you are deriding the institution or the people propagating it.


Generally, both. But don't get your panties in a wad about it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, March 25, 2011 5:08 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
don't get your panties in a wad about it.


Oh, look sexism, how quaint. From Texas. Texism.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 6:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Actually more of a snark, a comeback, an ironic echo repeating what was said before to the one who said it.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 12:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yes, Byte wins the "paying attention" prize. It was a snark-in-kind, nothing more.

:)

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Friday, March 25, 2011 12:43 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gone a couple of days, catching up: Happy, yes, your second paragraph is correct, BUT...aren't all religions about
Quote:
There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.
to a degree anyway? In other words, those who would do so aren't "true" Christians, but my 62 years tell me there are an awful lot of "those" around...

Same with deathbed confessions...it's happened often enough that I've heard it mentioned--usually as a joke, admittedly, or a snark. So let's put it in other terms; the person who does whatever they want then goes to confession and "repents", gets a couple of Hail Mary's and hey, ho, you get a clean slate. Same concept. My point is that a lot of so-called "religious" people do things the DO know (subconsciously if not consciously) are wrong, figuring they can get out of it. And a whole lot more do things they SHOULD know are wrong, but somehow human interpretation of whatever god there is in their religion tells them it's okay with said god--in fact it's RIGHT--to condemn Muslims, kill abortion doctors, kill homosexuals, etc., etc. Religion is used as an excuse, whether the person is a true believer or consciously using it as an excuse, for quite possibly the most horrific and numerous violence in the world. That right there is quite enough to make me not believe in any religion or god.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off


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Friday, March 25, 2011 12:49 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.



I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 1:26 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
...to a degree anyway? In other words, those who would do so aren't "true" Christians, but my 62 years tell me there are an awful lot of "those" around...

Same with deathbed confessions...it's happened often enough that I've heard it mentioned--usually as a joke, admittedly, or a snark. So let's put it in other terms; the person who does whatever they want then goes to confession and "repents", gets a couple of Hail Mary's and hey, ho, you get a clean slate. Same concept. My point is that a lot of so-called "religious" people do things the DO know (subconsciously if not consciously) are wrong, figuring they can get out of it. And a whole lot more do things they SHOULD know are wrong, but somehow human interpretation of whatever god there is in their religion tells them it's okay with said god--in fact it's RIGHT--to condemn Muslims, kill abortion doctors, kill homosexuals, etc., etc...


I won't argue experiences, I'm still pretty young and from a different area. It's something I have a hard tome believing on account of it not really making sense, but I suspect you don't see much sense in it either

This however

Quote:
Religion is used as an excuse, whether the person is a true believer or consciously using it as an excuse, for quite possibly the most horrific and numerous violence in the world.


I'm going to have to disagree with (the italicized parts). Statically, this is not the case, though it seems to be a popular misconception.

Quote:
I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.


Good for you. I like to believe most people don't.

I've been a Christian for almost 8 years, and I think I was a pretty decent person before that. My faith gave me a shinier outlook on life and different motivations for 'doing right.' Instead of 'doing right' in hopes that people would like me, think well of me, etc... I want to 'do right' to help others. Religion can give you a different perspective on things, but it's up to you to make your own personal choices.

Religion does not absolve you of personal responsibility, which is apparently another common misconception...

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Friday, March 25, 2011 3:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.


Wow. So that's your whole reason for having a religion? No wonder I don't get it - I thought that was just part of being a freaking human being!!

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Friday, March 25, 2011 5:12 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.


Wow. So that's your whole reason for having a religion? No wonder I don't get it - I thought that was just part of being a freaking human being!!


Oh kwickie, lol, you psychic you How could you know know if that was my whole reason?

Or maybe you are just being observant, like selectively. I could arrogantly demand you reread my posts like some posters... but if you mean to intentionally misinterpret me it's not worth the effort.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 6:12 PM

DREAMTROVE



I feel somehow people aren't getting enough out of their faith.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, March 25, 2011 8:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Huzzah for Happy, he's doing well and being very reasonable while still communicating how he believes, go Happy! I'm with you here as a fellow Christian. I don't knowwhy people are slagging on you.

DT, I laughed at your Texism remark inspite of myself. I'm a sucker for puns, or whatever goofy word game that falls into.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, March 25, 2011 8:30 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


If I had to guess... jealousy?

Just kidding. There are some snarks and jabs I didn't have to make that might have prevented the slagging, I'm not entirely innocent here. Thanks for the moral support though!

Not that I intend to drag you into any virtual fights, but several vs 2 feels a little better than several vs me

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 1:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.


Wow. So that's your whole reason for having a religion? No wonder I don't get it - I thought that was just part of being a freaking human being!!


Oh kwickie, lol, you psychic you How could you know know if that was my whole reason?


Obviously I couldn't. Hence the question mark. Selectively observant, indeed! ;)

Quote:

Or maybe you are just being observant, like selectively. I could arrogantly demand you reread my posts like some posters... but if you mean to intentionally misinterpret me it's not worth the effort.


Why'd you want to bring Rappy into it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 1:53 AM

DREAMTROVE


Not jealousy. Fear. They don't know how to defeat Jesus in an argument.

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 2:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Not jealousy. Fear. They don't know how to defeat Jesus in an argument.


Seriously? People who believe in Invisible Sky Buddies are lecturing rational folks about the flat Earth?

Hilarious.

BTW: Nails defeat Jesus in every argument. Nails have scoreboard.

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:56 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

BTW: Nails defeat Jesus in every argument. Nails have scoreboard.


Shall I take a cue from your play book and cite this as evidence you support torture? Clearly you must feel inflicting pain upon others is worth more 'points' than a noble sacrifice to atone for every person's sins, past, present and future, and forgiving and even loving one's enemies. Do you consider that being a 'decent freaking human being?'

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Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:22 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Happy is right, Quicko, some might wonder if your decent freakin human being status is in question from your weird comment here. Why are you so ... vehiment ... about this. You remind me of my neighbor Tom, he's our friend and we like hanging with him, have dinner every Sun. but if religeon comes up, particularly Christianity he sort of freaks out, odd that he would freak out so much about something he doesn't even believe in.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 5, 2021 12:57 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Marjorie Taylor Greene says she was suspended for ‘He is Risen’ Easter tweet; Twitter calls it an ‘error’

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2021/04/05/marjorie-taylor-greene-says-sh
e-was-suspended-for-he-is-risen-easter-tweet-twitter-calls-it-an-error-1055195/

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Monday, April 5, 2021 3:49 PM

REAVERFAN


'Allergic reaction to US religious right' fueling decline of religion, experts say
Percentage of churchgoing Americans is steadily falling, and the swirl of rightwing politics and Christianity is playing a key role
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/05/americans-religion-right
wing-politics-decline

Fewer than half of Americans belong to a house of worship, a new study shows, but religion – and Christianity in particular – continues to have an outsize influence in US politics, especially because it is declining faster among Democrats than Republicans.

Just 47% of the US population are members of a church, mosque or synagogue, according to a survey by Gallup, down from 70% two decades ago – in part a result of millennials turning away from religion but also, experts say, a reaction to the swirling mix of rightwing politics and Christianity pursued by the Republican party.

The evidence comes as Republicans in some states have pursued extreme “Christian nationalist” policies, attempting to force their version of Christianity on an increasingly uninterested public.
---
This is fantastic! Fuck the Christofascists and the hucksters who lead them.





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Tuesday, November 22, 2022 6:14 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Some are now being accused of being anti-Free-Speech because of their stance on jihadi religions

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:


You don't like certain religions if they stray outside if your range of acceptable.



Not my range

As soon as America was born it was at War with Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli an islamist Pirate Slave Empire of North Africa in the early 19th century.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 – 1826) was the third President of the United States, and the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson was one of the most influential Founding Fathers, known for his promotion of the ideals of republicanism in the United States. In reference to the Islamic slave trade of Americans and Europeans by the Barbary states, Jefferson asked Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman, by what right he extorted money and took slaves in this way. He answered:
The ambassador answered us claimed, that the right was founded on the Laws of the jihad Prophet who prayed to a pedophile terrorist Moongod, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every 'Mussulman' who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise. Barbary pirates continued to demand tribute from American merchant vessels in the Mediterranean. Refusal to pay would result in the capturing of American ships and goods, and often the enslavement or ransoming of crew members. A United Sates Naval fleet was sent to the Mediterranean to combat the Barbary pirates. The fleet bombarded fortified cities in present-day Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria, ultimately extracting concessions of safe conduct from the Barbary states and ending the first war. The Second Barbary War. Lasting only three days, the second conflict ended the need for further tributes by the United States, granted the U.S. full shipping rights in the Mediterranean Sea, and significantly reduced incidents of piracy in the region.
Jefferson later went to war with the Barbary states.

http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23938_Hitchens-_What_Jef
ferson_Really_Thought_About_Islam&only?entry=23938_Hitchens-_What_Jefferson_Really_Thought_About_Islam&only

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