REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It's worse than we know

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 07:14
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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 11:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

It's not just some of us here who believe it, these guys (and far more) do, too. Answer your question?




Not at present, I'm not. " Time is money " isn't anything new in the business world. Easy to find folks to come out AFTER the fact and say something.... whether accurate or not. Could be calling as it is, could be calling it as they THOUGHT they saw it, or could be something completely different.

Dunno how this'll play out in the end, but I'm glad I don't have any BP stock.





** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:18 PM

CATPIRATE


Kwicko, this is the problem we take sides to blame the other side. Man this is big just like Katrina. People didn't know how to help themselves, local goverment failed, big goverment did not follow up. LA still hasn't recovered but they got most of the help. Like Mississippi still has not rebounded on the coast. NYC had it together on 9/11. The .com bust and stock market bailout has hurt the country in morale where has a winning pitch in kinda attitude could boost us all up. California is always over drama. You know hurricane Floyd was real bad in NC but the people were rural so not one got how bad it was. My sister was a real hero during Katrina she got drafted by Fema on the spot, what she saw was unreal. The other sister drove across country with a uhaul filled with supplies that people from work donated. She got through bad weather, bad roads, and the guard checkpoints. That is what I am talking about. The women in my family are kick ass. Now my mother she takes holy water and blesses everything. Including my clothes when I am home. Not to mention she says that's why Floyd missed her house. She's a hoot.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Time is money. Time to drill a relief well, for example, is time lost from pumping unless they hire and train a completely separate group of workers--which workers they could "better" use in drilling another well for profit.



Yup. Plus, to drill a relief well WHILE drilling the other well, you may very well need ANOTHER drilling platform, which is another half a billion dollars or so. Or you can do it with one, provided you do the first well to within a thousand feet or so of where you think the oil is, and THEN pull it out, cap it, and start the other one, which you'll drill all the way INTO the reservoir of oil, leaving the incomplete one capped in the interim. Of course, once you've pumped out that reservoir, you need to fill and cap BOTH wells, instead of just the one.

There's a very good reason oil companies don't want to do it this way: it takes longer, and it costs almost twice as much. You use twice as much in the way of supplies, pay people twice as long, etc. If they aren't 100% required to do so by law or regulation, they aren't going to, period.

Brazil requires redundant blowout preventers. Oil companies have fought those regulations being implemented here for years, and they've lobbied and succeeded in not having those requirements.

By the way, I heard one of the BP officials on Meet The Press yesterday, saying that the blowout preventers had never failed before. BULLSHIT! They failed in Australia just last year, and they failed in the Bay of Campeche (IXTOC 1) in 1979. This man KNOWS this, and he's still on TV trying to lie his way out of it!

Quote:


Time is money in that they'd have to stop drilling or delay drilling in order to implement numerous safety devices which would have avoided this.

Time lost to replace/repair the things that were wrong which "broke" or otherwise didn't stop the disaster was time lost pumping profits.



Bingo. Watch the "60 Minutes" segment on the disaster, with the guy who barely survived the whole ordeal. He knew that the anular (seal gasket) on the BOP was damaged; he saw chunks of rubber gasket come up the pipe the day before the disaster! He's willing to testify that officials ordered them to let the mud pressure off the well as they were positioning cement "plugs" in the line, which would hold the pressure of the oil down. It was that let-up in mud pressure (done because it's faster and cheaper to do it that way - when it works, that is!) that allowed a giant bubble of natural gas to come up the pipe, blow past the BOP, force the mud back up the pipe, and hit the rig, resulting in the first big explosion.

Quote:


What you're not grasping is that they THINK in those terms; they think in bottom line: profits. What might result from their actions doesn't come into it, along with probably the laziness mentioned above and their own sense of infallibility, you know "It can't happen here".



It's a risk-vs-reward scenario. If you pull it off, you just made the company a TON of money, with no ill effects. And the chances are pretty good that you'll get away with it. Most of the time, it actually works. It's similar to flying that airliner one or two more trips after you notice the hairline stress fractures in the metal airframe. Sure, it COULD come apart in mid-air, but it probably won't, right?

Quote:


There are already reports that they were told something would protect the well and dismissed it as taking too long.



Indeed. They not only dismissed the risk and danger, they ORDERED the operators to do it their (riskier) way, according to several witnesses.

Accidents DO happen. Unfortunately, this wasn't an "accident" - it was pure negligence.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Cat, you're right. The women in your family DO kick ass. I freely admit


Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Friday, June 11, 2010 1:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Man, do I hate being right on this .....

Quote:

BP oil spill estimates double
US government figures show twice as much oil spewing into the Gulf of Mexico than earlier estimations suggested. The oil spill off the Gulf of Mexico is even worse than previously thought, with twice as much oil spewing into the ocean than earlier estimations suggested, figures show.

Latest estimates from scientists studying the disaster for the US government suggest 160-380 million litres (42-100 million US gallons) of oil have already entered the Gulf. Most experts believe there is more oil gushing into the sea in an hour than officials originally said was spilling in an entire day.

It is the third – and perhaps not the last – time the Obama administration has had to increase its estimate of how much oil is gushing.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/11/bp-oil-spill-estimat
es-double







" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Friday, June 11, 2010 1:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, it's a good thing for you that you've never been right, then...



Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 11, 2010 1:56 PM

CATPIRATE


We need a Teddy Roosevelt in office today.

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Friday, June 11, 2010 2:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah - he was for universal healthcare!

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 11, 2010 2:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, it's a good thing for you that you've never been right, then...



Mike



So, when I started this thread ( over 2 weeks ago ) and stated quite clearly that it IS worse than we know, and then we find out just how exactly I was right ( again ) , this is your childish attempt at a reply?

Again, you're nothing but a sad simpleton, posting contrarian nonsense, simply to be a troll.










" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Friday, June 11, 2010 2:38 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Raptor; he's snarking, you're taking the bait. I disagree that it's worse than "we know", because I already knew, but that's a minor point. I'm glad you posted the thread and brought it to everyone's attention, and you're definitely right, it has become worse than the vast majority of Americans ever knew or suspected.

One for you. Cherish it.


Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


niki

it's incomprehensible to me how anyone can take lightly this situation. When "some " chose to focus only on trolling and snarky replies, w/ out any hint of conscious awareness to the tragedy that's going on.... it infuriates me.

even if you THINK you know me, and my views on the environment, this should be one thing which we all agree.

- The focus should be, no MUST be, to

Stop the flow of oil - NOW

Keep the oil that's in the water from reaching more of the shore, and clean up what we can, as fast as we can.


THAT should be the primary goals for the Gov't, for BP, first and foremost.

I'm fucking sick and tired of threats of litigation, boots on the necks of BP, Jones Act waivers, Haliburton concrete, Bush, Obama.....

All those arguments can and will be had, in due time. But what we need from the LEADERS is action.

Not talk

Action.

NOW






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:15 PM

CATPIRATE


Well it goes to show the goverment and oil companies never had a plan. In case of emergency booklet.

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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:23 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I FEEL the same as you, and tho' you don't know me either, perhaps the fact that I'm dying to get down there and help, and eventually will by hook or by crook, should tell you something about how strongly I feel. As well as the fact that I DID know, and posted, how bad it was going to be long before anyone else.

The difference is that I have self-educated as best I can and recognize that NOTHING is going to stop the gusherfuck until those relief wells are done, and even THEN, it took months more before the single BIGGEST gusherfuck in the world was stopped, also in the Gulf of Mexico.

Any effort to cap it at this point, given what some experts are seeing, might well (in fact probably WOULD) result in an "underground blowout", which means it would be spewing from many places and MUCH more difficult to stop even when the relief wells are finished.

Ergo, stopping it until then isn't feasible. I'm every BIT as angry as you at the disorganization and that the cleanup and protection of the gulf states isn't being done right, and/or enough isn't being done, but there's nothing I can do about that except write and phone my representatives and the White House, which I have done. Other than that and getting there myself, I have no power to change anything, nor have you.

The other difference between us is that I try to use self-control and not take out on those HERE the feelings I have about this whole horrific situation. I express my anger, I blame whoever my research shows me (to the best of my ability) is actually at fault, and I discuss and debate it here because I care about it. I don't let fly at people here, who can't do anything, and I don't automatically lay everything at Obama's feet. He's not doing enough or doing it right in my opinion, but I find that as much the fault of how government works as his own responsibility, and I lay the blame at the feet of BP for their DELIBERATE lying and hindering cleanup efforts..

I DO blame him...for not trying harder to find out the facts and act on them, rather than trying to calm people's fears by telling us how many millions of feet of boom are being sent/laid, but I don't know how much of that is politics and how much of it is that he's getting faulty and/or incomplete data and advice.

It's not about one person, or even one administration. Facts are that they ARE trying to clean up a mess left by the past administration whose attitude toward oil companies was laissez faire and it's no surprise government agencies adopted the same attitude. None of this would have even happened if that were not so. Second, administrations are bulky, government is slow and inept at the best of times, so I don't expect things to go as they should or at the speed they should.

I think there is a vast difference between the response by the Bush Administration and that of the Obama Administration. That is my OPINION, from what I learned of each. Time will make the final determination.

So yes, I agree with you about how horrific this is; no, I don't think they can stop it no matter what they do until the wells are dug; and no, I'm not about to take it out on the innocent people here or let my political feelings tell me what to believe.

The bad guy is BP; colluded with by Cheney, and to a lesser extent Bush. Obama's Administration gets blame and I freely give it. That's where I stand. Sorry for the length...it's like "automatic typing" when I get head up about something, fingers move faster than brain and brain won't slow down.


Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:24 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


wish this site would settle down, dammit!

Well since it's here...Raptor, if we can't find teeny, tiny little sparks of humor in our conversations here, we're lost. I take none of this lightly, a teasing comment does NOT change that.

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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

The bad guy is BP; colluded with by Cheney, and to a lesser extent Bush.


BP has shown inhuman ,unconscionable response to the accident. ( I have to believe the engineers are working their asses off, but for the suits in the big offices.... there are no words for how I feel towards them. )

Your flippant comment - " colluded with by Cheney and... Bush ", is stunningly petty and ignorant. You're merely lumping in your ILLOGICAL hatred for those 2 to this specific incident. You have NO evidence that connects anything Bush / Cheney did to why the explosion took place.

Sorry "lax regulation " isn't an answer. Like a crime scene ( which is what this is ), the forensics of this case will be pieced together, and the exact cause ( or damn near enough ) will be found.

Society didn't cause this

Cozying up w/ BIG OIL wasn't the cause. ( where's your outrage on the Rahm Emanuel story again ? I'll have to look that one up )

It's very likely that human error, at the site of the crime, was the cause.

Or nature threw us a curve ball, which no one expected.

I don't know. But we'll find out, and at that point, THEN , is where we lay the blame. But this partisan demagoguing over folks who have been out of office for 2 years, before the facts are in.... is sad.

I'd expect better. Even from you.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Friday, June 11, 2010 3:49 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I already said you're free to believe what you will. To me, the state of the MMS up until this happened speaks clearly of the government's attitude. Letting BP fill out their own inspection sheets in pencil then going over them in pen; not doing inspections; lying; doing drugs and going to bed with BP personnel. It speaks pretty clearly, and any administration which lets it continue is wrong. Obama's did as well up until now, so they're wrong too. Who's "wronger" is a matter of politics.

Yes, I feel the same about the engineers. Apparently a number of them spoke up about problems, and apprently they've been afraid to go public, it's the suits to blame, the bottom-liners.

But my comment wasn't flippant in the least. If I can, I'll dig up (tomorrow!) facts about the Cheney Administration (because I believe it was) and their attitude/actions toward Big Oil, tho' I know it won't convince you. I'm not lumping illogical hatred, I'm extrapolating from what I've dug up, read, heard and more on the issue.

Lax regulation IS precisely the issue. All the things they've found that went wrong...if there had been a proper oversight agency and inspections had been made and de-regulation hadn't taken place, the problems would have been found and corrected and this wouldn't have happened. The last administration cited BP 760 time for "EGREGIOUS, WILLFUL" violations--yet what did they do? Nothing. That speaks to me.

Society has nothing to do with this, dunno where you came up with that. Human error, yes; but beyond that, it's been shown that engineers AND NOAA both brought up problems, the engineers were told to ignore it because they were BEHIND SCHEDULE. That's no error.

Enough, enough, enough. You can't or won't hear me, that much is obvious, so I give up. Your need to disparage me and the "even you" remark puts an end to this. I have tried to communicate civilly, now I'll let you snark to yourself. I believe what I believe; you believe what you believe. To continue to harrangue me because of my beliefs speaks eloquently, and I'm hungry. I've had a bad enough day already (not because of you or FFF), I'm going to try and enjoy the rest of it and forget MY very real problems. What is said here has no bearing on what's happening there, it's just an exercise in communication with people we choose to talk to. I don't choose to keep trying anymore. G'night...

(p.s. Just 'cuz; never ONCE did I feel it necessary to disparage you in today's discussion; I wish you could have done the same. It would have raised my respect for you.)


Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
TRULY signing off!!!



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Friday, June 11, 2010 4:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

But my comment wasn't flippant in the least. If I can, I'll dig up (tomorrow!) facts about the Cheney Administration (because I believe it was) and their attitude/actions toward Big Oil, tho' I know it won't convince you. I'm not lumping illogical hatred, I'm extrapolating from what I've dug up, read, heard and more on the issue.


You're extrapolating to fit your preconceived ideas, is all. None of what Cheney / Bush did had any impact on the actual blow out, explosion and death of 11 workers.

Obama didn't cause this either. I never said he did. Sure, I'll bring up that BP was getting a safety award, from THIS administration, but until I see a direct cause / effect to what happened on April 20, it's all moot.


Most of those violations you talk of were from 1 catastrophic event.

But again, none of that matters.

If we find that Dick Cheney himself hand wrote a letter instructing BP to blow up the Deepwater Horizon, I'll admit you were right.

happy ?









" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Saturday, June 12, 2010 8:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hoooo...kay, since I said I would, I will. I'm not extrapolating anything; read only the underlined parts for the connection which allowed BP to ignore or gave them exemptions from safety regulations which either directly caused or were contributory to the failure of the Deepwater Horizon.

The following quote is from the Wall Street Journal, but I don’t know how to get into the WSJ without signing up, so I had to find it elsewhere:
Quote:

“The oil well spewing crude into the Gulf of Mexico didn’t have a remote-control shut-off switch used in two other major oil-producing nations as last-resort protection against underwater spills.The lack of the device, called an acoustic switch, could amplify concerns over the environmental impact of offshore drilling after the explosion and sinking of the Deepwater Horizon rig last week….. regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993. The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling. The agency, the Interior Department’s Minerals Management Service, says it decided the remote device wasn’t needed because rigs had other back-up plans to cut off a well.”
Quote:

Evidence is mounting up that the oil spill in the Gulf is the result of a tragic sequence of equipment failures – but ultimately, all of them should have and could have been caught, had the rig been regulated properly. It turns out that tens of thousands of offshore rigs are barely regulated, a result of Dick Cheney’s private energy meetings and interference with the Department of Minerals Management Services, which regulates the off shore drilling. The MMS is also responsible for collecting the billions in royalties from the oil companies and is the same agency that was investigated and found to be doing cocaine and having sex with oil executives. Their judgment regarding the necessity of regulations was clearly not impartial.

A remote shut off valve for off-shore rigs is a regulatory requirement in Norway and Brazil, two major oil producing countries, and several other large oil companies find this valve so important that they use the acoustic switch at the cost of $500,000 a pop even though it is not mandated.

Cheney’s Energy Task Force determined that the shut off valves were a burden on the industry.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/deregulation-blame-cheney

The following quote is from the Wall Street Journal--
Quote:

The Energy Policy Act of 2005 has come to be known as the “Dick Cheney energy bill,” but there’s one provision that is so closely identified with the former vice president that it has become known as the “Cheney loophole.” The provision in question, Section 322, exempted hydraulic fracturing, a drilling process commonly known as “fracking,” from the Safe Drinking Water Act.

Serious environmental concerns about the process have been raised following numerous cases of groundwater contamination after nearby drilling. The exemption has placed the burden to rein in drillers largely on state regulators that are often unable or simply unwilling to police the thousands of wells that have been drilled in recent years.

Cheney offered permanent regulatory relief and rolled back existing environmental laws to help the oil industry. This particular example also demonstrates the administration’s willingness to distort science to benefit Big Oil and others.

The one exception to the Cheney loophole was a ban on injecting diesel fuel into wells. Yet a recent House Energy and Commerce Committee investigation revealed that the drilling companies violated this single restriction with impunity during the Bush-Cheney years. And oil and gas interests have launched a public relations and lobbying campaign to prevent Congress from closing the Cheney loophole or imposing other regulations. There have been two serious accidents involving onshore natural gas wells in the past week alone. A Pennsylvania well had a blowout and one in West Virginia exploded.

One of the 2005 Energy Policy Act provisions that is most directly related to the BP oil catastrophe is Section 390, which dramatically expanded the circumstances under which new drilling permits could be approved without further environmental reviews or assessments under the National Environmental Policy Act. Many appear to have been approved based almost completely on responses to yes or no questions on pro forma checklists.

The GAO report found that the BLM approved nearly 6,100 permits from 2006 to 2008 using the new exemptions carved out by Cheney and his congressional allies. Field offices in Wyoming approved 2,462 such permits. In fact, the Pinedale, Wyoming BLM office alone granted an extraordinary 1,498 permits using Section 390 exclusions. This is more drilling permits than there were residents of the town in 2000—1412. Ground level ozone levels, largely related to the drilling boom in the area, measured in the tiny central Wyoming town have at times exceeded those of downtown Los Angeles. Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar luckily announced onshore drilling reforms in January 2010 designed to end the abuse of Cheney exclusions on public lands.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/06/cheney_deregulation.htm
l
Quote:

From oil lobbyists buying million-dollar homes with DOI officials to a high level administrator being sentenced to prison time, the agency that is tasked with protecting America’s natural resources was wrought with flagrant ethical failures during the Bush administration. Here’s the background on the biggest scandals and the key figures in the DOI under the Bush administration

• 1983-1989: J. Steven Griles lobbying for energy lobbying firm National Environmental Strategies, Inc.
• January 2001: Gale Norton is sworn in as Department of the InteriorSecretary, J. Steven Grilels appointed as Deputy Secretary.
• September 2003: Jack Abramoff offers a job to Griles. Emails reveal Griles was seriously considering leaving DOI at the time.
• February 2004: DOI’s Sue Ellen Wooldridge writes letter to Inspector General in support of Griles without disclosing her romantic relationship with her superior.
• January 2005: Griles joins lobbying firm run by ex-Cheney energy adviser.
• September 2006: Interior Department inspector general Earl Davaney issues scathing report uncovering “widespread ethical failures” and Griles a “train wreck waiting to happen.” Allegations included “financial self-dealing, accepting gifts from energy companies, cocaine use and sexual misconduct.”
• February 2007: Griles revealed to have purchased $1m home with former DOI insubordinate Sue Ellen Wooldridge and a ConocoPhillips lobbyist. Months after the purchase, Wooldridge issued an agreement delaying $500m in ConocoPhillips pollution cleanups.
• March 2007: Griles admits to lying about his ties to Jack Abramoff and his girlfriend who acted as the go-between, DOI aide Italia Federici
• June 2007: Griles sentenced to 10 months prison time

“Simply stated, short of a crime, anything goes at the highest levels of the Department of the Interior” Earl Davaney, Interior Department Inspector General, 9/14/06

http://thinkprogress.org/interior-scandals-under-bush
Quote:

At the outset, I want to note that all of the conduct chronicled in this report occurred prior to 2007. Of greatest concern to me is the environment in which these inspectors operate - particularly the ease with which they move between industry and government. While not included in our report, we discovered that the individuals involved in the fraternizing and gift exchange - both government and industry - have often known one another since childhood

Their relationships were formed well before they took their jobs with industry or government. MMS relies on the ability to hire employees with industry experience..

The report itself can be found at http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/OIG_May_2010_redacted.pdf?tag=conten
tMain;contentBody


In a report in 2004:
Quote:

Within 10 days of the Jan. 20, 2001 inauguration of George W. Bush as President, Vice President Dick Cheney was made head of the newly created National Energy Development Taskforce. In May, 2001, Cheney's official energy policy was released. A timeline of Cheney's culpability for energy crimes, was assembled in September, 2003.

Cheney Task Force, January-May, 2001. On Jan. 28, 2001, on national TV, Cheney presented his view of energy policy: don't touch the looting going on. His exact words, "I'm a believer in markets...I think the notion of deregulation is basically sound.”

"Energy NAFTA"/Global Oil Control. On May 16, 2001, Cheney presented his final, 170-page report, "Affordable and Environmentally Sound Energy for America's Future." The report called for more deregulation across the board, and for international control over priority oil resource regions.

Excerpts fromhttp:// www.larouchepub.com/other/2004/3123cheney_tf.html

It’s very, very easy to find more. To say you need a letter in Cheney’s handwriting is absurd. All he had to do was allow oil companies to avoid or ignore the regulations in place. If they hadn’t deregulated and allowed oil companies to get away with ignoring safety regulations, THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. It’s as simple as that, tho’ I have no doubt you will repeat your cry of “they didn’t do it” and “you can’t prove it” over and over again despite the facts. So why bother further?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Saturday, June 12, 2010 1:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sorry Niki

All the comments about deregulation in the world have less than zero effect on convincing me here.

None of that has any direct impact on the cause of the KNOWN cause of the catastrophe.

Demagogue all you want, it doesn't address the facts.

In the least.

As far as THIS event is concerned, Cheney is every bit a Saint as Mother Teresa or Jesus fuckin' Christ himself.

But keep trying.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Saturday, June 12, 2010 3:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


AT the beginning of the thread you said something real, and true, and straight from the heart.
Quote:

Just watched the most sobering t.v. I hope to ever watch. Bigger than 9/11.... on the Gulf oil disaster. I can't mince words here folks....it's bad. Beyond what we've been told. Even if the " top kill " attempt works, the damage is far beyond what they're telling us. But the top kill won't work. It'll be August before a 2nd well can be drilled, to finally shut this nightmare down. And that's what it is.... an actual, real life nightmare. Get to the coast and white beaches of the Gulf now, while you can. It'll be the last time in our life time we'll see them like this.
What happened?

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Sunday, June 13, 2010 2:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


What happened ? Not real sure I get your meaning.

The thread was started just over a month after the explosion on the DWH, and over 2 weeks ago from today.

Not much has " happened ", is kinda the point. Except for finger pointing, claims that " everything that can be done is being done ", tough sounding comments about litigation and " kicking ass " and putting boots on the necks of BP, but very little else. The oil's still gushing, at rates far above what we were told ( thus my point on the thread made all the more true ) and the wetlands are dying. Not being messed up, by DYING.

Billy Nungesser is right. There won't be any " clean up " of the oil along much of LA's coast. The damages is already done. This isn't , like he referenced, a case where you can get volunteers to comb the beach pick up the oil, and it'll be back to normal. This won't be like some post 4th of July trash pick up....

Too many are running around, trying to score political points, spinning the issue, and the oil is still spreading across the gulf coast....

It's madness. Utter madness.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.


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Monday, June 14, 2010 6:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Simple equation, Sig. He got a shock, and it's been working on him ever since.

Fear leads to anger leads to hate. Everyone needs someone to blame, and given his feelings on Obama and the administration, it's only natural that would manifest itself into blame. Given his RWA mentality, that blame will never be shifted, no matter what the facts. Since we know Crappy's tendency to hate and lack of self-control, it really could go no other direction than the one it has.

Surprised you didn't figure that out for yourself--tho' I'm pretty sure you did, that your post was just a way of saying "you started out expressing the horror many feel it's a shame you reverted to politics and letting your anger take over." Am I wrong?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Monday, June 14, 2010 8:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Niki- You're right. Rappy always winds up with "blame Obama", as if BP's cost cutting had nothing to do with the disaster. And I'm SURE that Rappy will respond with .... BP is innocent until proven guilty. Just like Bush. But the same courtesy will not be extended to Obama, because he's a Dem.

Rappy, it is a disaster. We all feel it. There is PLENTY of blame to go around, but that blame starts with BP, which has the next quarterly statement as its main goalpost, and crossed fingers as its disaster-planning.

Where the Federal government deserves blame is for not diligently regulating BP to save it- and all of us- from BP's own worst excesses. The governments in the gulf states are thoroughly saturated with oil money, and that starts at county/ parish level and goes all the way up through the governorships, state legislatures, Congressmen, local employees of Federal agencies, up to and including Ken Salazar (who has always had a soft spot for offshore drilling). No matter how much they huff and puff, there will not be a single step towards tighter regulation or re-review of disaster preparedness plans which comes from that region. Nearly anything that any of the local/ state politicians say... whether Repub or Dem... is sheer showboating and blamestorming.

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Monday, June 14, 2010 9:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Niki- You're right. Rappy always winds up with "blame Obama", as if BP's cost cutting had nothing to do with the disaster. And I'm SURE that Rappy will respond with .... BP is innocent until proven guilty. Just like Bush. But the same courtesy will not be extended to Obama, because he's a Dem.

Rappy, it is a disaster. We all feel it. There is PLENTY of blame to go around, but that blame starts with BP, which has the next quarterly statement as its main goalpost, and crossed fingers as its disaster-planning.



Actually, no - there ISN'T plenty of blame. This disaster has 1 direct cause - the failure of the blow out preventer ( BOP ).

I know, folks like to speak of a "climate" of misconduct / deregulation / blah,blah blah... what ever, but all that talk is mind numbing pablum, to make policy wonks and PR doctors get everyone's attention off the ACTUAL cause and instead help them promote the agenda which they'd rather have us buy. Like Obama using this disaster to promote Cap and Trade ( which is exactly what he's stated he's going to do, btw ) a useless piece of legislation that could not have LESS to do w/ this disaster.

Quote:



Where the Federal government deserves blame is for not diligently regulating BP to save it- and all of us- from BP's own worst excesses. The governments in the gulf states are thoroughly saturated with oil money, and that starts at county/ parish level and goes all the way up through the governorships, state legislatures, Congressmen, local employees of Federal agencies, up to and including Ken Salazar (who has always had a soft spot for offshore drilling). No matter how much they huff and puff, there will not be a single step towards tighter regulation or re-review of disaster preparedness plans which comes from that region. Nearly anything that any of the local/ state politicians say... whether Repub or Dem... is sheer showboating and blamestorming.



See, this is where you have it bass - ackwards, 100% . Yes, the regulation issue needs to be addressed, but we can't shut down all off shore oil rigs ( and put 1000's more out of work ) across the board, simply because of 1 event. Maybe suspend similar rigs, but ALL of them ? Pure idiocy. Mindless pandering that'll do nothing to solve the problem and only cause more needless strife and hardships.


From not waiving the Jones Act, to suspending all off shore oil drilling and now using the nation's worst disaster to promote his own POLITICAL goals.... this President is quickly showing his utter incompetence along w/ this unconscionable hubris and disconnect w/ reality.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 10:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rappy, thanks for your on-target response. Yes, the blowout preventer failed. But why? Nobody knows, because although the BOPs were not DESIGNED for deep water drilling, they were shoved into deepwater service. And when they had minor failures, as they frequently did, instead of investigating WHY they failed they were repaired (seals and components replaced) and shoved right back into service.

Here's another possible flaw- the word came from on high the day of the blowout to substitute seawater for drilling mud because the drilling was taking too long. And drilling was costing BP millions of dollars a day. The drilling crew was mightily unhappy about it. Did they actually make the switchover BEFORE the blowout? I don't know. But BP apparently made decision after decision to forgo safety in favor of going cheap.
Quote:

BP took measures to cut costs in the weeks before the catastrophic blowout in the Gulf of Mexico as it dealt with one problem after another, prompting a BP engineer to describe the doomed rig as a "nightmare well," according to internal documents released Monday. The comment by BP engineer Brian Morel came in an e-mail April 14, six days before the Deepwater Horizon rig explosion that killed 11 people and has sent tens of millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf in the nation's worst environmental disaster. The e-mail was among dozens of internal documents released by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which is investigating the explosion and its aftermath.

In a letter to BP CEO Tony Hayward, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., noted at least five questionable decisions BP made in the days leading up to the explosion...

"Time after time, it appears that BP made decisions that increased the risk of a blowout to save the company time or expense," the lawmakers wrote in the 14-page letter to Hayward. "If this is what happened, BP's carelessness and complacency have inflicted a heavy toll on the Gulf, its inhabitants, and the workers on the rig."

... The letter by Waxman and Stupak focuses on details such as the design of the well, saying that the company apparently chose a riskier option among two possibilities to provide a barrier to the flow of gas in space surrounding steel tubes in the well. Despite warnings from its own engineers "BP chose the more risky casing option, apparently because the liner option would have cost $7 to $10 million more and taken longer," Waxman and Stupak said.

In the brief e-mail, Morel said the company is likely to make last-minute changes in the well. "We could be running it in 2-3 days, so need a relative quick response. Sorry for the late notice, this has been nightmare well which has everyone all over the place," Morel wrote. BP apparently rejected advice of a subcontractor, Halliburton Inc., in preparing for a cementing job to close up the well. BP rejected Halliburton's recommendation to use 21 "centralizers" to make sure the casing ran down the center of the well bore. Instead, BP used six centralizers. In an e-mail on April 16, a BP official involved in the decision explained: "It will take 10 hours to install them. I do not like this." Later that day, another official recognized the risks of proceeding with insufficient centralizers but commented: "who cares, it's done, end of story, will probably be fine." A spokesman for BP could not immediately reached for comment.



Another issue was the disaster plan. BP's plan was SO cut-and-paste from its other operations that it mentions sea lions (sea lions!). There was no real disaster plan; no tested equipment nearby; no backup plans... nothing other than generic hand-waving that they stamp on EVERY environmental impact statement... lots of soothing words, no meat. If the Mines and Minerals folks had done a real review, the drilling would not have started until something credible and actual was in-place. Instead they waved it on.

I don't think they should shut down every oil rig. First of all, it's probably not a safe thing to do. But in light of all the BP disaster, they should require the oil companies to have REAL plans and equipment in place to control blowouts.

And BTW, only conservation and green energy will save us from being hostage to the middle east, and prevent more oil disasters from occurring by eliminating the need for oil. THAT is the kind of long-term thinking that real leaders need to do to steer the nation in the right direction... and don't expect long-term good-for-the-nation thinking from the oil companies or from Walmart (which hasn't seen a job it can't outsource) or any other big business. HOWEVER, IMHO cap-and-trade is a complete friggin' boodnoggle, and Obama can shove it up his ass.

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Monday, June 14, 2010 11:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There 'ya go, Sig, just as you predicted.

So. The blowout preventer, eh? In a nutshell:

Ten years ago (Bush’s presidency) MMS raised the alarm for catastrophic spill which could be avoided by a backup blowout preventer, but didn’t require the system

Other countries require backup blowout preventers;

In 2003 (Bush’s presidency) a report showed flaw in the single blowout preventer’s deadman switch. Nothing was done.

Oil workers often refuse to arm the dead-man switch anyway because the blowout preventer might activate unnecessarily, causing downtime.

Unnecessarily downtime could cost $10 million.

Minerals Management Service did not force rigs to have audio control devices which would activate blowout preventer remotely.

Other countries require such devices.

Pushback from oil industry eased requirements for new technology.

Other countries demand they make them mandatory.

MMS declined to make them mandatory.

Here’s the backup
Quote:

The final safety switch for a blowout preventer that has lost communication with its oil rig is the "deadman" system that's supposed to trigger the blowout preventer to shut the well. It did not activate during the Transocean April 20th rig explosion. Another study West Engineering Services prepared for the Minerals Management System in 2003 found flaw with the deadman system.

"The most serious drawback to this system ...is the mind set of the rig personnel. Many operator and contractor personnel refuse to arm the system from fear that it will either not operate when needed or activate inappropriately, causing downtime. Such downtime can be extremely costly. If the blowout preventer cuts through drilling pipe it can easily cost $10-million to replace that section of pipe and put the rig back into production.

Drilling operations not subject to the administration's six-month deepwater drilling moratorium have until the end of the month to:

-- Provide independent third party verification of the safety and effectiveness of blowout preventers;

-- Install a secondary control system for subsea blowout preventers (current regulations do not require such a backup);

-- And, adhere to new inspection and reporting requirements for blowout preventers.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/10/oil.well.preventers/index.html
Quote:

At issue are regulations that were implemented during the last decade by the Interior Department and its royalty-overseeing agency, the Minerals Management Service, regarding the use of back-up systems such as blowout prevention devices. BP, which leased the Deepwater Horizon rig in the Gulf of Mexico, has been unable to activate a blowout preventer and stop an estimated 5,000 barrels of oil flowing from three leaks in a crumpled pipe about a mile underwater.

Minerals Management Service did not force rigs to have audio control devices that would allow them to remotely activate a wellhead's blowout preventer in case of a problem. Other major countries that permit offshore drilling require rigs to carry such devices.

Sen. Bill Nelson asked for a review of the development of regulations on blowout preventers and other well controls, as well as the role industry lobbying may have played in shaping the rules. "I ask that you determine in your investigation the extent to which the oil and natural gas industry exercised influence in the agency's rulemaking process," Nelson wrote.

http://blogs.chron.com/newswatchenergy/archives/2010/05/probe_sought_o
f_1.html
Quote:

Alleged regulatory shortfalls are now under investigation by the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the Committee on Natural Resources, which will focus both on the adequacy of BP's risk assessment as well as regulators' role, or culpability, in the disaster.

Official documents show that pushback from the oil industry resulted in easing of requirements for new technologies to prevent the kind of blowout that led to the Deepwater Horizon rig. Pushback from BP and others against installing a new kind of acoustic blowout preventer succeeded. The Minerals Management Service declined to make them mandatory, as other oil-producing nations have.

Moreover, a safety document from the Minerals Management Service 10 years ago raised the alarm about the potential for catastrophic spills, which could be alleviated by requiring backup and secondary blowout preventers for deepwater drilling. But the MMS didn't require any such system, leaving it to oil companies to decide what was best.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0506/Gulf-oil-spill-Did-Big-Oil-run-
roughshod-over-regulators


Whether Obama is pro-oil or not is irrelevant to this disaster having happened (tho’ I’m guessing he is). The regulations of the oil industry have been lax for at least ten years. Nobody did anything about it, not the MMS (a scandal-ridden agency nobody was apparently paying attention to), not the Cheney Admiistration.

The deadman switch, which showed problems ten years ago, failed. Some don’t arm it anyway because it would be expensive if it went off needlessly. Big Oil lobbied successfully to ease requirements for new technology and succeeded in avoiding a different system which might have worked better The blowout preventer failed. There was no regulation mandating a backup blowout preventer. That’s what we’ve got so far, and it all points to a failure of regulation. You can call it a “natural disaster” if you want, but that’s bullshit.

Obama might not have tightened regulations enough until now, but the push to DEregulate the industry came from eight years of the bottom line being money, not safety.

As to the Jones Act, we already dealt with that one and got to the truth, which is that no waiver has been needed, and one would have been provided if it were. The moratorium I don't agree with, once each rig is inspected THOROUGHLY, I think it should resume operation. But the fact remains that it's not "mind-numbing pablum" to recognize how this came about so we can avoid such things in future (hopefully!), it's just your "partisan jihad" to try and avoid any blame for Bush/Cheney.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Monday, June 14, 2010 11:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


There were 6 BP employees on the DWH when it blew.
79 Transocean ( that owned the vessel ) and 41 contract workers.

Quote:

And BTW, only conservation and green energy will save us from being hostage to the middle east, and prevent more oil disasters from occurring by eliminating the need for oil. THAT is the kind of long-term thinking that real leaders need to do to steer the nation in the right direction... and don't expect long-term good-for-the-nation thinking from the oil companies or from Walmart (which hasn't seen a job it can't outsource) or any other big business. HOWEVER, IMHO cap-and-trade is a complete friggin' boodnoggle, and Obama can shove it up his ass.



Yeah, and we need another Gov't grant to help out on that enhanced graviton accelerator core we can use to power our....oh, wait. There's no such thing.

We're not "hostage" to the Middle East. Most of our oil doesn't evne come from there. It comes from Canada and Mexico.

Look - " green " energy is a farce. The dream of the electric car has only been dangled in front of consumers for about a hundred years. All that time, and it still is a dream. Oh, sure, we have them now. If you want to spend the extra $$ and make sure you're not too far away from a suitable power source.

We sure as hell shouldn't be using corn to make ethanol. Maybe some sorts of grasses, sugar canes... fine. But not corn!

" Long term " answers will NEVER come from Gov't. Big bureaucracies only hinder and suffocate free thinking on such matters.

But all this crap is for another discussion. NOT NOW!

We need to cap that fucking gusher, and do what ever we can to protect what beach front property we still have.








" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki... .

you want to blame Bush for this ? Fine. Have at it. 2 can play at that game.

Quote:

CLINTON CATALYZED GULF OIL DRILLING BOOM

In 1995, President Clinton signed the Outer Continental Shelf Deepwater Royalty Relief Act which exempted oil wells drilled deep in the Gulf from the normal royalty payments they would normally have owed the government for their oil.

Usually, these payments amount to between 12% and 16% of their revenues, so exemption from this requirement did a great deal to catalyze drilling in deep waters in the Gulf of Mexico. As a result of the Administration action, deepwater oil production in the Gulf increased rapidly, growing from 42 million barrels annually in 1996 to 348 million in 2004. The latter figure represents about 6% of total United States oil consumption and about 15% of domestic production. Natural gas production from deepwater Gulf drilling increased tenfold during the same period.

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/2010/06/10/clinton-catalyzed-gulf-oil-d
rilling-boom
/


But what's Obama done in the past 50+ days ?

Played golf, gone to concerts, fund raisers, weekend getaways to Chicago, met w/ championship winning athletic teams, failed to waive the Jones Act, played golf some more.....

I'm placing blame squarely on who has failed at being an effective leader.

You have a problem with that ? Think about all that oil you're ankle deep in, and think...." if only something had been done while this stuff was still out at sea... "






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:16 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"if only something had been done while this stuff was being regulated to keep it from gushing... "

"if only something had been done when this stuff was supposedly being inspected... "

Too easy...

Yeah, and deregulation was loosened up so much when Clinton was in office that afterwards we had this huge, gigantic gusher from all those wells in the Gulf that weren't kept up to snuff...oh, wait, no, that was after BUSH left office. Ooops, my bad.

If you really think energy other than coal and gas is a pipe dream, you're gonna have an awfully hard time in the coming years. Anyone tell you OIL IS FINITE?? Probably not...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:18 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yeah..I had the " oil is finite " debate when I was in H.S.

Back in 1981.

( I was the one saying it was finite, btw.... )


I am big enough now to admit that I was wrong.

Are you ?









" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:23 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good lord, are you saying now it's NOT finite? That's phenomenal, even for YOU! Where do you think it's gonna come from, then?

That's it. The man has lost all touch with reality. Pathetic.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Where did oil come from in the first place?

That process hasn't stopped. Probably won't until the planet gets engulfed by our sun.











" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:45 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Too easy...

Yeah, and deregulation was loosened up so much when Clinton was in office that afterwards we had this huge, gigantic gusher from all those wells in the Gulf that weren't kept up to snuff...oh, wait, no, that was after BUSH left office. Ooops, my bad.



You didn't even bother w/ the link, did you? Clinton's action essentially made it more profitable for big oil to drill in deep water, where there's less wiggle room for error and a hell of a lot less known about - ANYTHING, when it comes to how oil impacts the environment, the gear needed to do the job. We already have tested and proven methods for drilling in shallow water. If this exact same thing happened in shallow water, we'd have it capped in a week.

Quote:


If you really think energy other than coal and gas is a pipe dream, you're gonna have an awfully hard time in the coming years. Anyone tell you OIL IS FINITE?? Probably not...



Oil, gas and coal will be around for long after I'm gone. There simply isn't any known way, save for nuclear, to get the yield of energy return than w/ those substances. Not wind, not hydrogen, not solar. We CAN use other means, but there won't be anywhere near the power from them.

And that's a fact.










" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yeah Rappy but... we can't wait another 65 million years for the next batch to appear.

I think yah've inhaled too many oil fumes, boy!

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Monday, June 14, 2010 12:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Yeah Rappy but... we can't wait another 65 million years for the next batch to appear.



You really think that no oil has been produced since the dinosaurs died ?

Really?

wow.

Quote:


I think yah've inhaled too many oil fumes, boy!



If I have, it's Obama's fault.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 1:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, it's a good thing for you that you've never been right, then...



Mike



So, when I started this thread ( over 2 weeks ago ) and stated quite clearly that it IS worse than we know, and then we find out just how exactly I was right ( again ) , this is your childish attempt at a reply?

Again, you're nothing but a sad simpleton, posting contrarian nonsense, simply to be a troll.





No, you said it was worse than "WE" know, which is bullshit. It's worse than YOU knew; the rest of us already knew how bad it was. Hell, we knew it before it happened. That's kinda why we were against your whole "Drill, baby, drill!" bullshit chant and campaign slogan in the first place. You're stupid enough to not be able to see what's right in front of you until it smacks you right in your idiot face, but the rest of us aren't really all that surprised that this happened. After all, if you play Russian Roulette long enough, you WILL get shot. Funny how you never have figured that one out.

Hell, at this point you're playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto, if you know what I mean.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Monday, June 14, 2010 1:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
niki

it's incomprehensible to me how anyone can take lightly this situation. When "some " chose to focus only on trolling and snarky replies, w/ out any hint of conscious awareness to the tragedy that's going on.... it infuriates me.

even if you THINK you know me, and my views on the environment, this should be one thing which we all agree.

- The focus should be, no MUST be, to

Stop the flow of oil - NOW

Keep the oil that's in the water from reaching more of the shore, and clean up what we can, as fast as we can.


THAT should be the primary goals for the Gov't, for BP, first and foremost.

I'm fucking sick and tired of threats of litigation, boots on the necks of BP, Jones Act waivers, Haliburton concrete, Bush, Obama.....

All those arguments can and will be had, in due time. But what we need from the LEADERS is action.

Not talk

Action.

NOW



Again, because you never answered before, what ACTION would you have the President take? Do you want him to part the waters himself, go to the bottom of the ocean, and use his godlike powers to cap the well by his own hand?

What action is there that you think the big scary government has up its sleeve that it can take, that nobody else has thought of?

You say you hate big government intervention - why do you DEMAND such intervention in this case?

You're making no sense. This is not a new occurrence for you.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Monday, June 14, 2010 1:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


kwickie -

Thanks for showing everyone how petty and small minded a fool you truly are.


I'm talking major ecological disaster here, and you're whining about campaign slogans from 2 years ago.

Trust in your messiah. Obama will talk his way out of this one.

He's got a Nobel prize, after all.

Of course, he'll first have to play a few more rounds of golf, go on another vacation w/ the girls, fly somewhere to raise more $$ for a lame duck candidate, and listen to a few more Grammy winning artists put on a few more concerts at the White House before he can be bothered again w/ the Gulf oil crisis.

But rest assured.....he's got this.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Monday, June 14, 2010 1:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
kwickie -

Thanks for showing everyone how petty and small minded a fool you truly are.


I'm talking major ecological disaster here, and you're whining about campaign slogans from 2 years ago.

Trust in your messiah. Obama will talk his way out of this one.

He's got a Nobel prize, after all.

Of course, he'll first have to play a few more rounds of golf, go on another vacation w/ the girls, fly somewhere to raise more $$ for a lame duck candidate, and listen to a few more Grammy winning artists put on a few more concerts at the White House before he can be bothered again w/ the Gulf oil crisis.

But rest assured.....he's got this.





You think maybe he can borrow your "Mission Accomplished!" banner from the George Dubya Bush "Libary"?

Oh, and thanks for confirming how tiny and petty you are, by trying to use an ecological disaster to score cheap political points and pretend that this kind of disaster isn't at all what you had in mind with your short-sighted, lame-brained policies of the last eight years.



Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Monday, June 14, 2010 2:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You really think that no oil has been produced since the dinosaurs died ? Really? wow.
Yep, really. Betcha you can't show me that it has, either, beyond some far-fetched and as of now completely baseless speculation.

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Monday, June 14, 2010 11:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


kwickie - this event had nothing to do w/ Bush / Cheney, Haliburton.... but it may very well have to do w/ Clinton. Sorry if you're too stupid or partisan to see it, though.

Sig. I can't show you how oil is made ?


Probably right. How can you teach someone something they don't want to learn ?








" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:45 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, Pizmo, you're a doll too. What a dream it could be... And I had no idea it was that little! I still don't think it can happen, I don't think enough people here would/could chip in. But I'm not averse to keeping it going for a bit to find out.

That's $50 from Pizmo, a guaranteed $12.5 from Anthony. Let's see where it goes. I won't know until July 1 how much I could pitch in, maybe $50-75 probably, I'm pretty far behind. But I'd do it, fer shore. And I have no DOUBT it'll still be going on then!

As to video, I could take lots of pictures (time permitting), but all I have is a little Olympus point-and-shoot, which does take videos and I would, they just won't be terribly good. If it were made possible, I'd do anything anyone wanted, as long as I could spend most of my time working. Hey, I can dream!

And to hell with the WulfWind, he'd diss it or find some conspiracy or something to bitch about...it'd be for the rest of you, 'cuz you'd have made it possible!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10




I'd donate, but you would have to assure me you are not some big fat chick that will use the money to buy twinkies. I do have a sneaking suspicion you are huge, forgive me if I'm wrong, the way I see it... any chick who can spend as much time as you do looking up shit can't have many dates. Right?

If you do go I'll meet you there we can share a room and hang out...

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Sig. I can't show you how oil is made ? Probably right. How can you teach someone something they don't want to learn ?
Nice duck. No, you can't. There is no current or fossil evidence to show that oil is being continuously produced. Theory? Yes. Data? Not an iota!

About this time you duck out of threads where you have been thoroughly schooled. Which would be a shame, as this is the ONE topic about which you have genuine, Rap-sourced feelings. But it seems you would take those honest feelings and even sell THOSE down deNile!

Hang on to those honest feelings, Rappy. Those feelings of outrage and grief... We feel them with you. The horror is unbelievable... even the media has to look away from this ongoing train-wreck and deal with picayune things because the tragedy is too overwhelming. Fish, birds, and beaches are not Republican or Democrat. Don't follow the media's lead, whether it is Limbaugh or Maddow. Stick with the truth, which is too large to be encapsulated by any ideology

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The fossil record wouldn't show it anyway. The geologic evidence, sure. But we have heat and pressure and processes that are occurring miles beneath the surface, and your glib response is " theory " ?

The same processes which made oil in the past have never stopped.

Ask any geologist.

You haven't schooled me in anything, other than showing me your colossal ignorance and false pride IN that ignorance.








" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But we have heat and pressure and processes that are occurring miles beneath the surface, and your glib response is " theory " ?The same processes which made oil in the past have never stopped. Ask any geologist.
ANY geologist? Well, my sister is a geologist. so I'll ask her. And all of her friends, who are also geologists and who work in Texas. Good enough for you?

And yes, there is heat and pressure down there. The problem is, I'm not seeing... and neither is anyone else... vast beds of carbon being laid down and converted to oil. If that were the case, we would be seeing a a whole series of oil reservoirs... some old, some intermediate, some young... just like we find a near-continuous record of old and young fossils. But we're not finding "young" oil reservoirs.

I know the theory... that carbon from "down there" is "somehow" being converted and pushed up to the surface. The problem is that oil is found in sedimentary rock: rock which was laid down at the bottom of an lake or ocean, with NO volcanic intrusions or even evidence of metamorphosis. So the theory is a bust, as it explains none of the observable facts and seems to be based entirely on wishful thinking.

And I see you've slipped back into deNile. Well, at least you touched reality once. You can write that in your diary as a keepsake. I feel sorry for you, Rappy. I really do. Somewhere, under all that ideology, is a halfway decent person who felt genuine grief about a tragedy almost too large to comprehend.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


So, you don't see it, thus it doesn't exist?

You're trying to get a simple, cover all answer for a complex issue. Oil doesn't always get pushed to the surface. That's why it's DRILLED for , so often.

Talk to your sister and her geologist friends, before you answer again. This is a waste of time.












" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

President Barack Obama tried to deliver an upbeat message Monday in Theodore. He emphasized cooperation and coordination among all levels of government, stressed that Gulf seafood is safe to eat and said the Gulf Coast will eventually be "in better shape than it was before."




Better than it was before.

You heard it, folks. Messiah is going to make it all better.

Doesn't know how to plug the hole ( sorry, Malia )but he'll make the entire gulf coast sparkling and shining, full of life that's bountiful, happy, clean and safe to eat.


I'm from the government, and I'm here to help










" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So, you don't see it, thus it doesn't exist?
There has to be EVIDENCE for something, even if it is indirect, such as the evidence that exists for electrons (because I haven't seen an electron directly... have you? I have, however, seen the Milkin oil drop experiment. I AM willing to take indirect evidence and extend it by theory.)


But there is no evidence of ANY kind... and certainly none that YOU have brought to the table, which tells me that you're just blowing smoke. If I start believing in stuff for which there is not even the slightest shred of evidence, I may as well believe in God, the tooth fairy, and purple dragons. I leave that arena to you.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sig

Your argument is no more valid than saying since we don't see fossils being made any more, all the fossils which have ever BEEN made are made.

Idiocy.






" Being correct does not excuse a violation of form " - Ducky, NCIS.

" ...the whole point of swearing is that it ain't appropriate. " - Kaylee


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