The Best Defense Weapon for a Society by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Best Defense Weapon for a Society

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2009 13:31
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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:05 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

In the Violence as Deterrent thread, guns of course became a topic of discussion. Briefly, so did knives and swords. So did the way society treats its youths, and the attitude of society in general.

I was wondering what you all thought the ideal self-defense weapon would be in a perfect society (acknowledging that even a perfect society has humans in it, and thus inevitably at some point - violence.)

A) Electrolaser. "Set phasers to stun, Captain!" Hey, it's less than lethal 99% of the time, right? Never mind that it's psychologically much easier to use, and quite the modern entertainment on Youtube videos. "Don't Stun me, Bro!"

B) Gun. "Do you feel lucky, Punk?" It's lethal at least 25% of the time. The rest of the time, it hurts a lot. It could kill bystanders, and woe be it to you if your kids start playing with it. But if everyone had one, wouldn't everyone be reticent to use one? Charlie and Clint seem to think so.

C) Blade. "Dom't make me cut you, man!" Simple to make, and easily available. Can make horrible wounds, but is it really as likely to kill you as a gun? Plus it'd be the very height of fashion to wear one on your hip. Just ask Lancelot. Facing an opponent in physical combat might be daunting enough to keep such encounters rare. Then again, did the Jets and the Sharks teach us nothing? Not to mention ole Clockwork Alex.

D) The other cheek. "Amen." Surely if you just invite people to do further violence upon you, they will become disgusted with themselves and leave you be. It worked for Jesus, didn't it? Well, in the long run? At the end of the story? He wins at the end, right? Kind of a chumbawumba ending, with the coming back from the dead thing?

E) Kung Fu. "Hai-Ya" It worked for Kung Fu Panda and for Caine in Kung Fu. Not to mention Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li. Sure, your grandmother might not be fit for it, but then again... Have you seen the old guys in these Kung Fu movies? They kick more arse than anyone!

F) Confidence in the Police. "Car 54, where are you?" The police will get them. Sure, maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow. But soon! I'll rest peacefully with that knowledge. Well, I'll Rest In Peace, at any rate.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:14 AM

WHOZIT

Tasers kill.

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Yes, they do, Whozit.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I've always been of the opinion that the very best CCW is a functional intellect.

I think that when running up against lifes uglier parts, using your wits is what matters the most.

Hell, I once foiled an attempted mugging by some chump with a pocketknife... with a trash can lid.

Didn't even think about it, just on sheer instinct picked it up off someones can and gave him ye olde shield bash with a fistfull of galvanised steel.

Ain't what ya use, so much as how you use it, and your primary defensive arsenal is between your ears.

-F

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Too true, Frem.

Then again, is 'cleverly improvised weapon' your *preferred* self defense tool? Or perhaps, 'outsmarting them on the fly?'

I guess it's a great argument for Darwin. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:32 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Found this interesting tidbit online. I can't assert its accuracy. Rue?

Point Blank, by Gary Kleck, pg 165, citing a study by Wilson and Sherman, 1961:

"At least one medical study compared very similar sets of wounds ('all were penetrating wounds of the abdomen'), and found that the mortality rate in pistol wounds was 16.8%, while the rate was 14.3% for ice pick wounds and 13.3% for butcher knife wounds.

The study is in Annals of Surgery Vol 153 pp 639-649 "Civilian Penetrating Wounds of the Abdomen" by Wilson and Sherman. It covers stab (5% mortality) and gun shot wounds (17% mortality) to the abdomen.

The numbers Kleck quotes above come from Table 7 of the article which contains mortality data by weapon. The implication seems to be that "knives are almost as deadly as guns". This is extremely misleading.

There are two basic questions to be answered:

Exactly what was measured?

Is the result statistically significant?

(1) The data is from 452 admissions with abdominal wounds to a hospital in Memphis, Tennessee over the period 1948-1959.

(1a) People who died before reaching hospital are NOT counted. In the discussion following the paper it is stated that "the preponderance of stab wounds is more apparent than real because a significant percentage of patients wounded by gunshot die before reaching the hospital.", so this will make the mortality rate for gunshot wounds appear to be less.

(1b) The wounds include self-inflicted and accidental cases. Someone attempting suicide with a gun will probably aim at the head, but a a would-be knife suicide may well attempt disembowelment.

(1c) Mortality rates for wounds to other parts of the body may well be very different. For example, a low velocity weapon like a knife is far less likely to penetrate a skull than a high velocity projectile.

(1d) The distribution of wounds is different for knife assaults and gun assaults, since victims of knife assaults have more chance to dodge and block.

(1e) Medical treatment has improved since 1948. More recent results on abdominal wound mortality (Annals of Surgery 179 pp 639) show that stab wounds are 1% lethal and gun shot wounds are 13% lethal.

(1f) The weapon used was known for only some of the cases. The mortality rate for gunshot wounds where the type of gun was unknown was 29%, so this made the mortalities for each type of gun appear to be lower than they really were.

(2) The 13.3% death rate for butcher knife wounds is based on a mere 15 cases. This is far too few to give a meaningful mortality rate. The death rate for rifle wounds was 7.7% (based on only 26 cases). Do you think rifles are half as lethal as handguns?

I have calculated 95% confidence intervals for each of the weapons in the paper. Here are the results:

Weapon Cases Deaths % Deaths 95% conf for mortality rate
Shotgun 49 10 20.4 11%-34%
Pistol 101 17 16.8 11%-25%
Ice Pick 14 2 14.3 4%-40%
Butcher Knife 15 2 13.3 4%-38%
Rifle 26 2 7.7 2%-24%
Switch-blade
knife 17 1 5.9 1%-27%
Pocket knife 44 0 0 0%-8%
Unknown GSW 14 4 28.6 12%-55%
Other stab 172 9 5.2 3%-10%

All GSW 190 33 17.4 13%-23%
All stab 262 14 5.3 3%-9%

We see that mortalities for each pointed weapon are not significantly different from mortalities for all pointed weapons, but that mortalities for stab wounds are significantly less than mortalities from gun shots.

95% confidence intervals for mortalities calculated from (Annals of Surgery 179 pp 639) are 1%-2% for abdominal stab wounds, and 11%-15% for abdominal gun shot wounds.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 6:48 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

E) Kung Fu. "Hai-Ya" It worked for Kung Fu Panda and for Caine in Kung Fu. Not to mention Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Jet Li. Sure, your grandmother might not be fit for it, but then again... Have you seen the old guys in these Kung Fu movies? They kick more arse than anyone!

My Judo master was a really small Scottish guy, over sixty he was. We called him, imaginatively, Wee Man. I used to practice with my uncle, who's a gym trainer and generally brick wall of a bloke.

And Wee Man used to kick his arse all over the mat.

Actually in close quarters I'd be more afraid of a bladed weapon than a gun. A gun close up can be deflected, because it's only that very small hole at the very front that's dangerous. Where as a blade you have to get past to the arm in order to control it.

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 1:31 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Shoot first. Shoot to kill.

Until I have a phaser, that I can shoot more than once.

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