Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications by deadlockvictim

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications

POSTED BY: DEADLOCKVICTIM
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 15:32
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Monday, May 19, 2008 5:34 PM

Burden of proof.

So far as it stands they have ONE, repeat ONE, pregnant minor.

The fourteen year old who initially refused the test (and subsequently had a near breakdown over being forced to repeat it several times cause the State didn't like the result) and the other teen was of legal age, so that leaves ONE.

Which should be prosecuted, sure...

But you are once again operating on a bunch of false assumptions and press propaganda that I have shot to pieces repeatedly and the States own documentation does not support.

And there is the simple fact that no charges have been filed, and the State refused to accept it's own documents such as drivers licenses and birth certificates until forced to, and then when forced to, did finally acknowledge that those people were not underage.

At this point in the matter the State has very little credibility, and Walther should excuse herself from the case on the basis of the now proven fact that she KNEW Swinson was the caller and that the tip was bogus - that came out this week, mind you.

Let me repeat that, Judge Walther KNEW this tip came from Swinson, she KNEW Swinson had a history of false accusations, and she chose to process a warrant based on information she had every reason to believe was false at the time.

That does not bode well for the States case in combination with the fact that they discarded that warrant upon breaching the doors, and the "evidence" used to secure the second one has completely fallen apart unless they can show more than a single pregnant minor in custody, which...
They cannot, or they would have done so by now.

The fact that they have no case whatsoever has, of course, not in any way stopped CPS from completely violating Texas law in spirit and in fact, and since nobody seems to much care there really isn't much that can be done about it beyond attempting to press charges over it, a forlorn hope if there ever was one, since that amounts to tasking an agency shown to have no respect for the law with investigating itself.

As for the hearings, in spite of their protestations to the contrary, they did indeed try to foist off that overly vague form letter as an action plan, combined with a lot of very questionable requirements - and when CPS personnel were put on the stand, were unable or unwilling to give clear answers, and given the benefit of the doubt, for the moment, look to have bitten off far more than they can chew on their current resources.

As for the Judges, don't even pretend to tell me that any State doesn't have their "go-to-guys" for a rubberstamp verdict, especially since they get to pick the judges - while it's not out of the realm of possibility they might do so, it's not likely with folks hovering in the wings watching for exactly that.

This isn't Sparta, the family is NOT subordinate to the State, and my primary concern at this time is reuniting families ripped apart for no better reason than the fact that the State doesn't quite see things that way.

We will be quite happy to assist in the prosecution of the few bad actors we can positively identify, but NOT until those who are guilty of no wrongdoing are reunited as families, and intend to fight tooth and claw against a bunch of bullshit nitpicking that no parent should ever have to put up with as a condition of caring for their own child - especially given the events that have led us to this pass.

Believe me when I say we could fry these folk who ARE guilty of something extra crispy, without a doubt, but even I have my price.

And that's what it is, that the innocent be released from the greedy, savage, grasping claws of a Government that has no respect for anything but it's own wants, not even it's own laws.

Until that happens, we will not assist the State in prosecuting the bad actors, not when the innocent suffer as well.

Collective punishment is the act of a tyranny, and we'll not support it, it's just that simple.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 5:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

The hard nut of fact that will crack anyone's tooth is the DNA evidence. Why don't you wait for that before deciding who's right and who's wrong, as I am, eh ?

ETA: This wasn't a topic I was at all interested in. Most of what passed for 'news' I just laughed at, especially the 'bed in the temple' claim which was SOOOOoooo ridiculous it should have broken anyone's trust in the media. But b/c YOU'VE made a lot of claims I've made a point of following the news closely and tracking down facts - like which judges are presiding over the hearings.
The whole claim about there being a conspiracy between CPS and the police, or was it the police and Walther ? or CPS and Walther ? - or maybe it's the CPS and all the rest of the judges and the police and Walther - doesn't stack up. Not that there aren't grand overarching government conspiracies, but this is not it. Maybe a few winks between actors here and there, but nothing to guarantee the kind of results you say they're hell-bent on getting - unless they have physical proof - real evidence - of underage sex. And with physical evidence even a conspiracy becomes moot.
And BTW (and I'm willing to learn if things are different in Texas) I tend to trust rank and file government-employed medical and scientific personnel. The ones working for private business have their findings bought and paid for. The government upper-ups are political appointees and we know what that means. But the rank and file are, in general, the ones you can trust for accuracy. If they say a female has been pregnant based on physical exam - then as far as I'm concerned it's a fact unless there is specific proof otherwise.
Given everything, I'm still waiting for the DNA results which will be the definitive set of facts that, with me, hold much more weight than all the blah blah blah from all sides put together, even yours.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:15 AM

FLETCH2

That may not be conclusive. My understanding is that the Mormon gene pool is quite shallow, which is why they are used to study some genetic disorders. In a typical paternity test the father and mother are probably not closely realated which means that you stand a really good chance of establishing who is who with a relatively basic test. If the father and mother are first or second cousins it may need more detailed tests, if it's possible to be 100% sure at all.

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Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

And that was something I mentioned far, far above 'Friday, May 09, 2008 - 05:17' as a matter of fact.

Mitochondiral (maternal) DNA and y-chromosome (paternal) DNA along with somatic DNA would give definitive results. Let's just hope that IF they come up with inconclusive DNA results (and while it is a possibility it may not be an actual problem in this population) someone is smart enough to go to the next step. But like any analysis, while you may anticipate a problem, a direction, a result - there's no substitute for looking at your data to see what you got.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Rue, the reason I refuse to wait rests in how critical early development is in a childs eventual sanity, stability and personhood - and how the current events have negatively impacted it.

That does nothing also for several mongamous(sp?) parents who lived in seperate buildings on the grounds and should not have even been part of this in the first place - who are acknowledged by the State to have neither committed any of this, nor any real suspicion of involvement.

shouldn't those people retain custody of their own children ?

Thanks, btw - for the list of judges, like I said, we're playin this one with table stakes and cannot be everywhere, all the time, other than Walthers they're definately not rubber-stampers, Gossett was in fact pretty brutal to the CPS and State reps on the stand, and given the case in question he had right to be.

As for conspiracy, we're not talking of some great, grand all encompassing PN type thing -

I am making a specific allegation of complicity between Judge Walthers and the LOCAL CPS and Police department personnel.

Sheriff Doran knew full and well that Barlow was in Arizona and spoke to him by phone, was told and subsequently confirmed from records and his PO that Barlow had not been in Texas for nearly twenty years, as well Barlow had no knowledge of anyone named "Sarah" that came to mind, and further investigation indicated no one by that name was to anyones knowledge present at YFZ ranch.

Upon investigation of the phone call PRIOR TO any application for a warrant, one of the numbers was linked to Swintons pre-pay cellphone and the department was advised that Swinton had an extensive history of false allegations and reports.

So, it is confirmed fact, from the States own records: these facts.

They KNEW Dale Barlow was not present at YFZ and certainly not currently abusing some girl named Sarah, due to confirmation of his own statements and those of his probation officer.

They KNEW that Rozita Swinton was the person calling in the report and that she had an extensive history of false reports.

With these facts whatsoever not in doubt, in spite of this, applied for a Warrant to search YFZ and Walther granted it.

Case point one- Did they lie to Judge Walther, or did Walther know ?

Her subsequent actions seem to indicate that she did, if she was deliberately misinformed then all she needs do is make public the documents which were submitted and acted on to procure the warrant, at which point it becomes an iron-clad drop shot of a case against the Sheriffs department and their personnel.

If she DID know, then things get worse.

Case point two - Did Angie Voss know ?

CPS's own investigation prior to warrant service also comfirmed beyond doubt that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and that no "Sarah" was living with him.

Voss had to have known this, since she was in charge of this part of the investigation.

Voss was the one who solicited the assistance of the Midland SWAT team in the initial entry, a complete violation of their own use-of-force guidelines regarding warrant service, as no allegations of drug trafficking, weapons violations or violent behavior whatever were made even at the time.

Her motivations in this case seem to be personal in nature as indicated by certain of her own comments both public and in her testimony, which just muddies the issue even more since there was no cause to involve a SWAT team for this warrant service, and we would very much like to know what she told the Midland police dept in order to secure it.

The participation and foreknowledge of Walthers and the Midland SWAT team is something we would like a court to determine - it is suspect, but I want THAT evidence handled with a proper chain of custody and secured before proceeding to indictments.

However, the participation of Voss and the Sherrifs dept is not whatever in doubt, and constitutes probable cause since they chose to apply for and serve a warrant that they knew -

A - Was based on information almost certain to be false.
B - The target of was not on side, nor would be as he resided in another state.
C - The "victim" named almost certainly did not exist.

Serving that warrant in the first place opens them to criminal charges and renders all further investigation invalid - it was NOT a good faith effort but rather a malicious and intentional abuse.

And yes, we have proof.
In fact, the States own records indicate and prove everything I have just stated above

Now, the second warrant, which is what makes Walthers a secondary suspect, was issued without proper procedure and quickly enough to be suspicious of itself.
While it may constitute a good faith effort by Walthers, it's fairly dubious given procedural violations and her own conduct in this matter.

Adding fuel to the fire are some public comments by Sherrif Doran about having a "a plan on the shelf" to enter and search YFZ and admitted intent to use educational inspections as a means to "get at" them.

I tend NOT to trust rank and file Gov employees, as people they're just like anyone else, but it's a corrosive and corruptive culture and thus I tend to keep a sharper eye out.

We have pretty much an iron clad case against the Sherrifs dept, and probable cause to believe that Voss and Walthers had foreknowledge of events and were active participants - but we would prefer a court to determine that latter, because it would then act as a lever upon the child custody cases if it can be proven that custody was severed in bad faith.

I too want the DNA evidence in hand, and I want THAT job above all else done right, one reason we were so willing to assist in making sure the effort is properly funded.
(haven't heard back, we assume that worked out or we'd be informed)
Also regarding that, some folk from the innocence project asked if you'd be interested in writing up a "DNA analysis for idiots" page to help get the basics across to the clueless, contact them for details if you are.

But there are other factors than that involved and it may not substantially impact every individual custody case, so we are working on what we have.

My primary focus is seeing families who are innocent of any wrongdoing properly reunited, and I will use any and all means at my disposal to make that happen, up to and including busting the States chops and grilling their bad actors.

As I see it, at THIS point the State is guilty of far worse crimes than the bad actors within FLDS, whom we will get to, and assist in the roasting of, only after the State corrects the matter and makes reparations for the damage done.

I am not so much concerned about explicit right or wrong, as I am with unfucking the situation as quickly and cleanly as possible - were they to reunite all the families not specifically accused of anything, as Texas Law REQUIRES, and proceed against those who are only with a specific accusation and temporary State custody pending a verdict, also as the law requires...

Then my participation, and that of my people, would be in fact no longer necessary or required.

They want me out of their hair, that's the price, and you can bet they damn well know it.

And just as an addition to the insanity, insult to injury, the State wants FLDS to pay for their own abuse at the States hands.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9332171

Explain to me how that makes sense, in light of the airtight case we have against the local Sherrifs department for pulling this shit in the first place ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, May 21, 2008 8:07 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey Frem

"I tend NOT to trust rank and file Gov employees ..."

Neither do I, in general. Considering what I've heard from my cousin, who is a type of Fed, I trust 'them' even less than I used to.
BUT - it's the medical, scientific and engineering rank and file specifically who seem to take their professional jobs personally - as part of who they believe themselves to be - and that is as fact-finders. And who work that way, no matter what pressure is put on their jobs. Look at it this way - who's been putting lie to the Bush bull crap all this time ? The nuclear scientists at the DOE who said Hussein's aluminum tubes were useless as nuclear centrifuges; the scientists at the EPA who blew the whistle on power-plant mercury and perchlorate in water; the Nevada health officials who noticed and tracked down the hepatitis C spike due to syringe re-use. And I've seen it unfortunately all too often over the decades - while high-level officials run after every political shift and scheme, public employees hunker down and do their best job possible year after year after year, even if they have to do it on the QT.

"My primary focus is seeing families who are innocent of any wrongdoing properly reunited ..."

This is where it gets hazy to me. So I'm going to print a part of a letter (you'll be able to google it by quote) for you to consider:

Quote:
An Open Letter to The Honorable Governor Rick Perry and The Honorable Judge Barbara Walther
By Samuel W. Roundy

May 5, 2008

Dear Governor and Madam Judge:

I am eighty years old. I’ve lived in Texas for almost a year and have been a member of the FLDS Church for fifty-six years. My purpose in writing this letter is to counter the false propaganda that has spewed forth from the Texas authorities.

You all seem greatly concerned that we allow one man to have such great power over us. I declare to you that the one man we reverence, worship, and obey is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He does not walk among us at the present time (but the time is soon coming that He will), but He does have one to represent Him on the earth until He comes to rule and reign upon the earth. That man with the authority to represent Jesus Christ is Warren S. Jeffs, and this is the reason he is hated, vilified, and lied about because the world in general has turned their hearts to Satan and rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This, dear people, is the contest you have embarked upon, and you have allowed yourselves to be ensnared into doing the devil’s work by enlisting for your consultants and advisors the devil’s angel’s, who are very adept under Satan’s rule to couch their lies in just enough of the truth to sound plausible.

Samuel W. Roundy

Warren Jeffs was tried and convicted on two counts of being an accomplice to rape, "... using his religious influence over his followers to coerce a 14-year-old girl into marriage to her 19-year-old cousin." Hmm, coercion and underage marriage as religious practices by the supreme religious leader, whose followers say has the "authority to represent Jesus Christ" on this earth.
That concerns me, and it should concern you. We're not talking about individual abberations. We're talking about fundamental religious tenets, beliefs and practices that are part and parcel not just of the religion but entire community.
Let me put it this way - if as a tenet of their religion a church community practiced the occasional child sacrifice rather than 'merely' forced underage marriage, would you say that only those who had actually practiced it were a danger to their children ? Or would you say all children were at risk because the group believed in and supported the practice, and was in the sphere of influence of said leader ? Granted this is an extreme example, but no different in its essence.

Personally, I think the CPS injunctions for the parents are too vague. It needs to specify that no underage marriages are to occur and that girls receive equal and adequate education at a minimum in order to get their children back. As far as I'm concerned, they don't need to 'abandon their religion' - just the illegal parts. If not, then yes, they are all at risk.

"Also regarding that, some folk from the innocence project asked if you'd be interested in writing up a "DNA analysis for idiots" page to help get the basics across to the clueless, contact them for details if you are."

As usual I'm very busy, but when I have the time I'll get with them. It seems a very good thing to do.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Wednesday, May 21, 2008 8:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So far as it stands they have ONE, repeat ONE, pregnant minor.

Currently pregnant. How many have had sex? How many had been pregnant at one time or another? Frem, your bias is so obvious you've given up the right to be seen as impartial or objective in any sense of the word. I've suspended judgment until the facts are available. Even if the State overstepped its bounds doesn't make the FDLS "innocent".

Rue has obviously done research on this. What she says makes good sense as far as I'm concenred.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Wednesday, May 21, 2008 10:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, as for Gov employees and what we could call for lack of a better word perhaps "satellite" employees, they're just people, with their own biases, grudges and whatnot, it's when they are in a position that isn't really answerable for em that bothers me.

All too many CPS folk seem to have an axe to grind, and I can understand why, but they need to be grinding it against the bad actors, not the victims of em, yanno ?

Yet on the other hand you have the mental health folks who blew the whistle on some fairly abusive conduct on behalf of the former.

Once you strip all the fancy titles off, they're all just folk like you and me, and every bit as fallible, which is why I don't have any level of automatic trust, you see.

As for the letter, it's straight propaganda, remember I mentioned that would be done and that due to my disagreement over it, I would not be a participant in that kind of thing whatever.

Many of the press releases have also been in my opinion straight propaganda from both sides of this mess, and I have no intention of giving FLDS any more of a pass on that than the State - on top of which I think the letter in question to be idiotic if they don't believe that, and somewhat creepifying if they do.

But they're welcome to BELIEVE that, it's their actions that would concern me.

Take certain factions of hardcore Satanists for example, who believe in far worse things, up to and including actual non-voluntary human sacrifice, but you don't see their children being taken away en-mass either, because while they might BELIEVE those things, might even official sanction them, as a general rule they choose not to act on them because it would put them in conflict with the law.

Quote:
Personally, I think the CPS injunctions for the parents are too vague. It needs to specify that no underage marriages are to occur and that girls receive equal and adequate education at a minimum in order to get their children back.

In this we are 100% in agreement, that's my beef too - the requirements are far too vague, and open to exploitation by folk shown to have no respect for the law, they need to be very specific and commit their requirements to official documentation so that there is no ambiguity and that everybody knows exactly what needs be done, in what order, and under what conditions.

I do believe that if they explicitly cite the legal statues for minimum education and marriage within the requirements, we *can* get them to comply because that can be argued on a theological level and quite successfully given what the potentive consequences are.

And once that is done, then we put the screws to the bad actors within the community who, in my opinion, have been exploiting them for gain, and crush them utterly - Jeffs hisself, that's a bit more tricky, but once the families are reunited and the situation stable enough, we plan to show them some facts about what was going on they might not be aware of, and that might indeed change some of their opinions about ole Jeffie boy.

Idols fall hard, don'tcha know.

The whole DNA-for-Dummies thing isn't time critical, and we appreciate it, just make contact with them when you have the time to spare and are willing to do so, it will keep till then, no worries.

Siggy, I have never called em innocent, not once, and you of all folk know this.

As for the "how many have had sex" thing - again there's this burden of proof, how do we know they were makin it with an adult, rather than makin it with one of the boys behind the woodshed ?

That kinda thing goes on in any community, really, and I consider a medical exam under threat of force by the State as traumatic and offensive as what the State is accusing FLDS of - ponder this, if a stranger did that to your kid you'd have em arrested, yes ?

I never claimed to BE impartial, if I am on anybodys "side" it is that of the kids themselves, who in my opinion have been mistreated far worse by the State than anything they might have faced at FLDS, and now that absolute proof is on hand that this was done in bad faith, I am very damned angry about it.

I want those families put back together, I want the situation unfucked, and THEN...

I want some heads, quickly starting with the FLDS's bad actors to get them out of circulation and AWAY from those families...

And ending with the States bad actors in this, to prevent another travesty like this from ever happening again.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting those four things, in that order.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, May 21, 2008 4:30 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Nasty bit of business, this.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90QCCL
O0

Apparently some relatives who came up in support of the folk at YFZ brought their kids with em, and CPS barged over there and demanded to be let in, and I think it pretty obvious what they wanted - the folk at YFZ, wisely having the gate manned 24-7 now, told em, no warrant, no entry, and the CPS folk left in huff.

I hope to hell they're not really thinking what they appear to be, not that I think matters will get confrontational, since I have little doubt that if they DO get another rubber-stamp warrant from Walthers they'll probably bring half an army with them...

It's just the sheer, plain *malice* involved in something like that, that jumps out at me, and I ain't easy to horrify in that fashion.

But that sure did it.

If they come down for a second snatch, and try this stunt on folks who only came up to support their relatives, we will involve ourselves directly, because that is so over the top I don't even have the words for it.

-F

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/ AR2008052200548.html?hpid=artslot

Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- A state appellate court has ruled that child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect's ranch.

Interesting turn of events. Who would have thought the power-mad, oppressive, monolithic apparatus of 'the state' that Frem rails against so much could do this.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Of it's own will ?

Not a chance in hell, the wheels of justice in stuff like this only turn when a whole bunch of angry people get to cranking them.

Remember the evidence above, which WAS given the Third Court of Appeals in Austin before I mentioned it here, proving without a doubt that this was done in bad faith.

And yesterdays incident was enough to definately decide matters - they're not gonna admit fault, hell no, but I don't really give a shit whether they do or don't at this point.

And now that our bloodprice has been met...

And provided they don't renege at the last minute like they have with many of these hearings we were promised, but, as long as the State obeys this courts directive, and given the way they've played it so far I am skeptical, mind you...

Then our priority shifts to removing the bad actors from the community as speedily as possible and putting them somewhere that they ain't a danger to that community - they'll get their day in court, by the book, and it won't matter a bit if folks are smart enough to proceed on legally obtained evidence alone.

Of course, I doubt they'll take my reccomendation that the proper place to put em is at the bottom of the puget sound, but it's the spirit of the thing.

No time at the moment to discuss it more, cause this opens a holy hell of paperwork to sort, process and put in the hands of the correct folk to have it - won't be chaos since we have a contingency plan, but it's a LOT of work, and we gotta get to it.

I might have to tap some of my people off that even since I doubt the State will lay on transportation to put these folk back together or that most of em would even wait for it, so whoever we can spare to drive the van is gonna get a workout - might even be me since my folk don't need handholding to do the job.

More info when I know more.

-F

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 9:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

I just had to say that. B/c the price of making blanket judgments and pretending 'they' are all the same is that you can't recognize your resources and the good things available to you.

Government, like fear, is a good servant but bad master. We need to make it our servant so that it works for us and we can get good from it that we otherwise wouldn't have.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA

In that we are in agreement, that's always my point innit ?

That we're the boss, they're supposed to be in service to us, and not vice-versa.

A lotta what I do amounts to trying to put the leash on and make them remember that when they've forgotten it - just because I would rather dispense with the flawed system we have doesn't mean I don't recognize that we're not socially or emotionally ready for that yet, cause I have stated that quite a number of times.

And soon imma be away for a bit, I got stuck with driving the van by virtue of the argument that as a cab driver and chauffer, I happen to be the most qualified for the job at hand, and in spite of my dislike for religious folk am least likely to be annoyed by a van full of kids for hours on end - soon as they start releasing them back to their parents, I may be too busy to comment further for a while depending on the transportation situation.

It's damned bizarre being honored by folk who know full and well you dislike them bitterly, there's a deep strangeness in our tolerance here.

I don't like them one bit, and yet fought tooth and claw for them, they don't like me any better, yet have treated me with the utmost respect and kindness...

If we can do it, why the hell can't the rest of the world ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:48 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

More of the Details of a decision :

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html?eref=rss_to
pstories

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:32 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/22/ AR2008052200548.html?hpid=artslot

Court: Texas had no right to take polygamists' kids

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- A state appellate court has ruled that child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect's ranch.

Interesting turn of events. Who would have thought the power-mad, oppressive, monolithic apparatus of 'the state' that Frem rails against so much could do this.

So this is your position now? Pretty slick how it's done a complete 180 don't cha think?

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 12:55 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Show me the 180.

But I think the problem is that in your partisan and dull-witted way you don't 'get' reality. It is possible for there to be underage forced marriage and for the state to not have met its legal requirements - both at the same time. Strange how that could be.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:29 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
It is possible for there to be underage forced marriage and for the state to not have met its legal requirements - both at the same time. Strange how that could be.

But according to you, one is not contingent on the other. Why follow proper procedures when there were potential underage victims?

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 1:56 PM

FLETCH2

Was that ever her arguement? I thought she was saying that if abuses existed the state was compelled to act on them rather than do nothing and let the abuse continue.

ie religious freedom does not extend to breaking the law.

Or did I miss something?

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Thursday, May 22, 2008 4:28 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Why follow proper procedures when there were potential underage victims?"

By initial reports, everyone did act properly.

If you go back and actually read what I wrote (strange as that idea might be), I said many, many times (probably four or five) that I could find NO connection between the calls made to a woman's shelter in Texas which prompted the raid, and the calls made to a woman's shelter in Arizona where it became apparent (weeks later) there was a hoaxer. The idea that the police 'knew' it was a hoax but went in anyway wasn't supported by any facts I found. I also said that given the nature of the claims the police were obligated to investigate.

Further, given the information in the media at the time there seemed to be a widespread pattern of underage marriages - a high percent age of girls that were or had been pregnant - which put all girls generally at risk.

Since then Frem posted that the police tracked down the alleged abuser BEFORE the raid and that he had an airtight alibi. Additionally, the ages of some of the girls/ women (it's not definitive how many) have been adjusted upward.

Therefore, while there are definitive documented cases of forced underage marriages - one of which put Warren Jeffs in jail, two of which are reported by recent 'escapees' and one which was found by the DNA testing and presented today in that case - it looks less likely that there is a widespread pattern that would put girls at risk generally. (However, I reserve my final opinion on this till the rest of the DNA evidence comes out, assuming it ever does. Nothing beats hard evidence.)

I also want to say we still don't know the facts of the situation. There are still many young girls who HAD been pregnant. Should DNA trace children back to them simple math can determine how young they were when they conceived. And, in that society, underage pregnancy can only be attributed to underage marriage. There is no other explanation. Therefore it would be evidence of illegalities practiced part and parcel with the religion.

But we'll see how things shake out. Personally, I'm still waiting for the DNA evidence, b/c it's the only thing that will satisfy my need for facts. And it is literally the only thing that can lay all the snakes straight.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:49 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Gross-out of the day

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh ick, yeah, I don't need a reminder of what a creep Jeffs is.

Given the current legal situation there's almost nothing I can share at the moment, save for lookin at the possibility of five individual criminal cases (including the original two that set my teeth on edge) that might be possible to prosecute once things get sorted out.

Most of what's going on at the moment it attempts to blamestorm, fingerpoint, and save personal careers rather than anything meaningful.

ETA on the DNA is supposedly ten days, but if it takes longer to get it right, I'd rather have it late than wrong.

-F

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Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'd rather have it late than wrong

AMEN !

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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