REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Race, and politics

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 13:35
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Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:22 PM

OPPYH


Over hear in RWED there is a constant speculation that because Obama is a black man he is being treated in an unfair manner by the right wing, and and most conservatives.

Being an ever loving liberal let me say one thing:

WHAT THE HELL?

Conservative republicans attack democratic presidents. It's what they do. And vice versa. Strong conflicting views of how America should be run results in strong emotions.

Continuing to cry "racism" every time a very negative attack on Obama occurs is unfortunate, and a little sad.
It sets us back as people. it puts the peple who do so in with the likes of Jessee Jackson, and Al Sharpton. They do it because it puts them in the spotlight, and pays their bills. SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

If Race were an issue would Obama become the president of the United States?
It also plays both ways. Obama is a media darling. Everyone outside of Fox news loves him to pieces, and this is also a little scary. You put too much faith in the president, you may be let down sooner or later.

Conspiracy theories exist when you want them to. The issue of race in politics is about as real as Dungeons and Dragons. It only exists in your mind, but we can all feed into it and play along.

I knew as soon as he was elected there would be this grotesque, hellish underlying paranoid fear of a black president. As of now it is in it's infancy, but I expect at some point(much like nuclear weapons) it will be exploited and may even break us down further than we already are.



Great time to live in this world, I'd like to be cryogenically frozen for a few hundred years. Maybe when I wake up "Racism" and "prejudice" will be extinguished.

Any one have any sleeping pills?

Thanks







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Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:00 AM

DREAMTROVE


Pretty spot on. I think there's some bigotry against Obama, but mostly it's anti-islamic reactions to the "Hussein" secret muslim conspiracy. There's also hidden racism in the worship, "look I worship the black guy, I'm not racist."

Racism is very much an issue, but not for Obama. The snag is that we as a nation tackled racism as if the world only had two races. those two races now get along. OTOH, I was recently on a road trip across the country and I heard a fair amount of Mexican jokes and Islamophobia, and I can't help but notice a little Sinophobia as well, and call centers in Bangalore are complaining that Americans call them and ask to talk to "a real person." So yes, it's an issue, but it's not an issue here. (Oh, and I recognize that Obama is a completely different race from any discriminated against in the US, but I see that almost no one knows this. The most accurate racial identification of Obama I think was some looney rant about Obama being descended from ancient egyptians, which is probably true, but relevant?)

I guess I'll leave that one to John to connect to the Eye of Horus on the back of the dollar bill. ;)

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I remember when Clinton was president, the actions of the opposition party were startling and shameful. I had never seen a president hounded and hunted so incessantly by his opposition, with irrelevancies being manufactured into evil conspiracies worthy of impeachment.

When Bush was president, the actions of the opposition party were startling and shameful. I had never seen a president hounded and hunted so incessantly by his opposition. I actually came to see some of the actions of this president as vile, but even while coming to this conclusion, I could not believe the horrible, horrible things being said about the president and his administration. I could not remember such a negative attitude towards a president in my lifetime.

Now Obama is president. If the pattern holds true, we will continue to hear even more hateful and awful things about him than ever before. Things that startle and shame.

I almost think that it's the American people, quickly bored with the low-key vehemence of the past, who are constantly upping the ante. No matter who wins the next presidential election, I expect it all to get worse. Again.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I favor the Bulworth method of eliminating racism myself - everybody get busy with everybody else till we're all prettymuch the same color!


-F

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:33 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I favor the Bulworth method of eliminating racism myself - everybody get busy with everybody else till we're all prettymuch the same color!


-F



How boring would that look!

Intermingle everyone as they choose, love and enjoy, obviously. But there is such a wide variety of physical beauty in humankind that I'd be a little saddened to see the entirety of it shrink to one mono-look. I'm half-certain, though, that it's our future path anyway, so whatever. I'll deal. There could be a lot worse things.

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Heheh, I doubt it, there's always fashion and culture - I do so love the idea of being able to mix n match without other folks having an *issue* with you cause some of your cultural or religous tenets being out of political favor with the approved intolerance of the day.

I thought that dislikin folk over such things was asinine when I was six, and my opinion of it ain't changed none for the better since.



The infinite diversities of the myraid combinations are a beautiful thing, are they not ?

But still, I like the idea of more nookie, and less stupid cultural-theological hangups about it, would do society good, you ask me.

-F

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:15 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem,

Science, alas, doesn't hold up the idea. What actually happens in animal species is that genetic groups diverge until they become separate species. Knowing that, assume for a moment that we do apply an artificial social structure to encourage the elimination of all differences between humans. Ultimately, extremely predictable things happen.

1. Since some genetic characteristics are dominant, the children would be grouped according to perception. People, collectively consider Tia Carrere of Wayne's World to be asian, and Barack Obama to be black. But the problem gets more complex: In Africa, Obama would be seen as strictly east african, but Malia and Sasha would be seen as west african, like their mother.

2. Some groups, particularly those with very bloody histories where someone has tried to exterminate their ethnicity, such as the recent extermination will resist this idea, like the east african, due to the race wars over the last twenty years that claimed 15-20 million wars, in which the openly stated goal was west african genetic supremacy and the extermination of the east african races.

3. As blood mixes, three major populations sections will develop: (Sticking with my african example, but applicable anywhere) a) East African purests who are more prone to resist the merger for historical reasons, b) the group that mixes, where west african genes dominate, but also west african populations dominate, being more prone because they lack the historical resentment, but also being more numerous, even locally, because so many of the east africans were exterminated recently and over the centuries, that west africans now dominate even in east africa, and c) west african purests who don't mix.

Over time, group b for obvious reasons would more and more resemble group c, until it was excepted as being much closer to c than group a, leaving a far wider divide than there had been.

4. Groups harbor resentment for a long time. Tutsi resent the Hutu, Serbs and Croats and Albanians/Kosovars resent each other, Jews resent the aryans, Armenians resent the turks, Ukrainians resent everyone, Native populations resent settlers, the world over, etc. This goes on for a long time, blacks haven't forgotten slavery and indians haven't forgotten the trail of tears. The Irish remember a thousand years or more of forced extermination by the english.

5. Any forced breeding program will create new resentments, as some populations will dominate both genetically and numerically. (Consider the issue today in Xinjiang. 7 million uyghurs are being forced to integrate with a billion chinese. We can all predict the result of that.)

6. People don't just differ genetically, but culturally. Uyghur culture doesn't stand much of a chance in this situation either.

7. So, lets enter science fiction and assume that you succeed. Not only can people fight wars over cultural differences and even minute variations in religion, but they also recognize differences instinctively. There was just a piece in Newsweek about this: populations identify genetic differences and separate themselves, and believe whatever the maximum difference is to be the most important feature.

Case in point: Eastern Europe and Gypsies. The Slavs think of the gypsies as their genetic opposites. Both are indo-european aryans, and are closer related to each other than either is to the germans, who aren't technically aryans, but they are the only people that they see. That is, until a muslim community moves among them. Now, if these are say, Albanians, there still isn't a lot of genetic difference all around but there's a new spectrum.

8. If you narrow down to get rid of all differences, the resultant population will still see the remaining differences as absolute. Go back to our west africans in central/east africa for a moment: Stereotypes of the curly haired, people who live in apartments, city-folk, those who speak with an different accent etc. or have a slight difference in religion or other ideas and practices will all be at each others throats.

9. The only thing that will ever unite the created society is when they re-encounter the isolated survivors of the East Africans, who may have grown over time into a militant xenophobic society convinced that everyone is conspiring to exterminated them. The west african groups will see they are not so different from each other as they are from the East Africans. Blood will spill again...

Think about the Christians of America. 50 years ago they were at each other's throats. One church vs. another. Now they have met Muslims, and they are united against a common enemy. Of course, Mulims believe that Jesus Christ taught the word of God, but this doesn't matter. Muslims are *more* *different*. That's all that matters.

Some future world scenario in which there are Hindu temples everywhere, Muslims and Christians may find that actually, they're pretty similar, in that they're not Hindus.

Or, alternatively, the muslims may disappear, and so may the catholics, and everyone else until there is one First United Pentecostal Church of the Second Coming of the we're all going to die now, but over in Oklahoma, there's a branch where the people don't believe that we will all die when the Rapture arrives, and out in California, there's a group that believes that some guy is Jesus, and another one that thinks there are rituals that need performing to bring on the events of the apocalypse, and that group has long fingers. They're the long fingered meddlers who make things happen rather than wait for them, they're an evil conspiracy to take over california or the world and they are in league with the devil, as are all long fingered people...


In other words, we're screwed.


My plan would go something like this: People should be perpetually exposed to people extremely different from themselves, at a great distance. Send and Englishman and Irishman together to China and they'll find a common ground they didn't know they had, hopefully, that won't be hating the Chinese, but when they go home, their differences will seem small again.

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:37 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

The infinite diversities of the myraid combinations are a beautiful thing, are they not ?

But still, I like the idea of more nookie, and less stupid cultural-theological hangups about it, would do society good, you ask me.



Only looks like this if you preserve the rainbow, but nah, I've studied mice too much to believe in this future: The only way we get one race is if one exterminates all the others. Really what we'll get in the US is some dominate society of some racial mix, and then another which worships Sarah Palin.

It's been my experience that these mixing societies have decidedly *less* nookie. Groups of humans all seek to dominate, just like any other animal, and one group will succeed. I'm not a very dominant male, and so I do better in an environment that has less conflict and much more culture. Which culture doesn't really matter.

Ironically, I do better in a very different environment, like Japan, or Russia or even some rabidly christian environment than I do in one that is openly accepting of my different beliefs, which I make no attempt to hide.

In an open accepting society I'm a definite FAIL I suspect because I'm a non-alpha male. Of course no society is truly accepting. If I were to state my political beliefs, being albeit mildly conservative, I would run into some serious conflicts. Curiously, though Taoism, which is peaceful and passive, is widely known as a conservative philosophy, compared with the more left wing Confucianism, which is militant and authoritarian. Confucianists favor forced assimilation, Taoists tend to favor variety. The core difference is none of these, but that Taoists are Laissez fair and prefer minimal interference, and Confucianists tend to believe in the necessity of a mandate for intervention to correct the perceived wrongs. But the followers of Confucianism vary: I have little respect for the communists, but a lot of respect for Samsung. Of course, with the Yinyang as the national symbol, the Korean ideology is really a mix of the two. (Then of course there are the liberals who thought Oh, I thought it was a neat symbol.)

The world is what it is, and it goes as it goes. I can still see aberrant forces that destructively buck the path of nature, like manipulative financial systems, wars, deforestation, but I can't see a reason to prefer Christianity to Islam, or to even care.

Also, as you know, I'm a culture junkie. It's what I enjoy. I really can't stand this walmart paved planet that we're headed for. When I go to a distant land, I want it to be different. Iowa isn't very different.

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Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, IDIC, is better than "Infinite Diversity in other than Infinite Combinations"

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Monday, November 16, 2009 9:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


On the original topic, I agree mostly. But I think racism is very alive and well in America today, and IS a large part of the reason things have become so very ugly recently. It's been used very effectively (consciously and subconsciously) by the right-wing nutbags, and others in the party, to incite anger. To ignore it is to hide our heads in the sand.

On the other hand, to cry "racism" at everything is counter-productive. You're not going to change the mind of racists; you're not going to get them to even recognize their prejudice unless they already know they have it--and those who are aware of their own racism will cling to it to the very end. I believe we should ignore that aspect of it and let him stand on his own merits; to decry it over everything is a waste, and only gives his detractors something to argue against.

The fact of Obama's race has made me afraid for him from the time he was nominated, and I will stay that way. There are few things that rile people up as much as racism, and few things which as easily incite hatred and violence. I attribute SOME of what we've seen recently to overt or subtle appeal to racism; I think those who hate him find it easier to do so because of either consious or subconscious racist feelings. But there's also a lot of appeal to anger in using the Socialist, Nazi and other labels; thus it is and thus it always will be.

I agree that each party attacks the other party in power with everything to hand. But I think what we've seen lately is on a higher level of ugliness, and I think both coming off eight years of Dumbya AND racism contribute largely to it.




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Monday, November 16, 2009 10:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I agree that each party attacks the other party in power with everything to hand. But I think what we've seen lately is on a higher level of ugliness, and I think both coming off eight years of Dumbya AND racism contribute largely to it."

Yep, the old standby of hippie-libs.

"Don't like what we are about? YOU. RACIST!"

lol

It still amazes me that noone has called the libs on how racist THEY are.


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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:01 AM

RIVERLOVE


I saw a forum consisting of all Black people. They were businessmen, lawyers, doctors, factory workers, and many other backgrounds. Many questions were put to them by the moderator, and they responded with both praise & criticism of Obama.

So, are Blacks that are critical of Obama racists? Well? Oh lemme guess; they're Uncle Toms like Condi Rice & Powell were, right? If Blacks show up at Tea Parties, are they redneck racists, just without the red neck?

Obama's campaign (w/ his supportive media) called Bill Clinton AND Geraldine Ferraro racists during the Dem Primaries last year. Enough is enough with the racism bs.

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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://campbellbrown.blogs.cnn.com/2009/11/13/commentary-world-of-blac
k-republicans
/


"Enough is enough with the racism bs."

AMEN.

P.S. Im not endorsing Republicans, btw. Just against the idea that because you are black, you HAVE to vote Democratic, or believe in their ideas.


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Monday, November 16, 2009 11:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, DO knock it off with the old "hippie libs" bullshit. It was never viable in the first place, and it's gotten very old.

I said the current ugliness was CONTRIBUTED TO by both coming off Dumbya's insanity and racism...which of course you choose to ignore completely, typically.

I also didn't say racism was the only reason Obama has detractors, and that it was stupid to cry racism over everything, which you also choose to ignore completely, typically.

The fact remains that race, like religion, is easier to incite to violence than philosophy or politics alone. And I maintain that what we have seen this past year IS worse than previous years--the tea-party nastiness, the town-hall disruptions, the ugliness portrayed by the McCain campaign, Faux News, placards, politicians, etc. are worse than I've ever seen. What Bush and Clinton received doesn't hold a candle.

You will deny that and can argue it all you want; I'm old enough to have lived through sufficient administrations to make up my own mind and decide from what I see on the news, what I read and hear. Has nothing to do with having been a hippie OR a lib (the former of which I no longer am and the latter of which I have NOT been at times).

You need new material.




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Monday, November 16, 2009 1:34 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


*sniff

Can't we all just get along....


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Monday, November 16, 2009 2:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Yep, the old standby of hippie-libs.



The fact that this is all you have to bring to the debate tells me everything I need to know about you. You, who are so into NOT grouping people by stereotype (yeah right!), are going to lump all the "hippie-libs" into a pile based on nothing of substance, and only the most general of stereotypes.

Quote:



It still amazes me that noone has called the libs on how racist THEY are.




Maybe you can explain to us all how racist "the libs" are, then, since you seem to know all about how "hippie-libs" think and believe. Go ahead. Be specific and get detailed. I'll wait.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:43 AM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
On the original topic, I agree mostly. But I think racism is very alive and well in America today, and IS a large part of the reason things have become so very ugly recently.



Ok, to a point. Racism does exist, but I feel it's the super rich "whitey" neighborhoods, and the worst of the deep south rednecks(including the pathetic Klan members who practically keep racism alive just by existing). If I had to give a guess at numbers, I'd say maybe 98% of America is quite comfortable with all races, and are taking great strides to co-exist. African Americans may never fully "trust" white people, but our relationship is getting stronger, and that is the key.

As far as the president Obama in the next 8 years(I'm certain he will run another term) I bet you racism will come in to play whether it be in word, or action. And I tell you I won't want to be living in America at that time.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Um... The Ku Klux Klan doesn't exist only in the South. There's actually a fairly strong branch I'm aware of in Oregon, which is otherwise a very left-leaning state.

I'm reasonably sure that its membership tends to be among poorer Americans, and that only the leadership has any sort of money or influence.

I'm also equally sure that when I went to highschool, I had a black principal, and that every now and then, someone would spraypaint racial slurs about him. While that can't exactly be called racism, because he wasn't denied any opportunities by those offensive remarks, there is clearly a perspective that the responsible students are going to be taking into their careers. You don't think that might influence hiring practices if these students ever rose up to management positions wherever they're hired?

Racism and reverse racism both exist. It's pointless to argue that they don't, or that they are limited. Both are pervasive and very real problems.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:46 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Modern racism is no longer about hurting or insulting. These days it is used almost exclusively as a weapon to destroy or attempt to destroy a person or organization's reputation. It seems the biggest racists today are Blacks and liberals. Liberal political correctness has put everyone who isn't a white Christian male into a special victim's category. Dare ye tresspass into that area and you will certainly get accused and besmirched. Some even go as far as stating that if you disagree with Obama on anything you are a racist. And liberal mouthpieces like Olbermann, Mahr & Garafalo blame Obama's failed policies, his plummeting poll numbers, and general ineptitude on....racism, of course. How handy to have that around! Now Obama himself is too clever to jump on that theme, and he doesn't have to. He simply blames Bush for everything. The whole lot of them are despicable. It's like they have a little checklist....oooh that's racist....oh that's ok...oooh another racist, well he's a Dem, so ok....yep racist... no not racist...on and on 24 hours a day. Thank God we have people who can label others for us.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Maybe you can explain to us all how racist "the libs" are, then, since you seem to know all about how "hippie-libs" think and believe. Go ahead. Be specific and get detailed. I'll wait.

Mike"


Have fun reading.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=162&type=issue

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

ETA:

http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/1996/sepoct/articles/again
st.html


http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/dear_white_liberal_america.html

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It seems the biggest racists today are Blacks and liberals.


You mean those racist blacks and liberals who went after ACORN?


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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


bump..

Hey Kwick, you read those links yet?

Or, are you just going to hurl more insults?

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:50 AM

DREAMTROVE


Mike,

I actually agree with Wulf that liberals are often unaware of their own racism because they are so convinced that they're not racist.

However, Wulf has completely failed to convince me of two things important to his case:

1. That he is not a racist. It was almost impossible to type this with a straight face.

2. That he is in anyway a conservative.

Sure, he supports 2a, and most republicans do, but it's not really a conservative position, it's a pretty neutral one. Mike also also supports 2a and I would definitely place on the left.

Hating black people isn't a position of political perspective, but neither is hating liberals, or anyone. I mean, when you think about it, you really can't define any position negatively.

Pirate News may hate jews, but that doesn't make him a Nazi. Most people hate Nazis, but that doesn't make them Jews. Lots of Americans are anti-Capitalist without being Communist, almost all Americans hate Communism, but lots of them are not capitalists. Hating the French doesn't make you English, etc.

Peronally I currently hold the Republican Party in a lot of disdain, but don't feel I'm really to the left of where I used to be, which reminds me, I have something to post ;)

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"However, Wulf has completely failed to convince me of two things important to his case:

1. That he is not a racist. It was almost impossible to type this with a straight face.

2. That he is in anyway a conservative."

Huh?

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:55 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


btw:

Dear White Liberal America
By Lloyd Marcus
Thank you very, very much. You see us poor helpless inferior blacks (oh forgive me, I must be politically correct, "African Americans"), and you want to help us using your superior intellect. After all, we could not possibly succeed in this racist, homophobic and greedy country without your assistance.

I first met you guys in the 70s when I attended the prestigious Maryland Institute College of Art on a scholarship. A black kid from the ghetto, I found myself amongst white kids from well to do families. I worked a part-time job to cover my books and art supplies. You guys did not have to work.

And yet, I remember many conversations about how you would never bring a child into this "freaking world" and how "freaking screwed up" this "freaking country is". You told me how "freaking selfish" your "freaking parents" were and how they only cared about "freaking money". Then, you drove off in your convertible given to you be your "freaking parents" as I stood at the bus stop.

I can not thank you enough for the numerous times you shared your expensive premmo weed with me. While I enjoyed the free weed (of which I've long ceased to indulge) and rebellious chicks, in all honesty, I could not figure out what you were so p-o-ed about.

So, now you former hippie boomers are in total control of government, colleges and public schools, still selling your Utopian message of peace and love. Thanks for getting rid of black dads in the home via your welfare programs. I mean, everyone knows dads are cruel chauvinists who beat and molest their kids.

Oh, and thanks for encouraging schools to accept black kids speaking Ebonics rather than English. It would be racist to expect us simple minded colored folks to learn to speak English correctly. And besides, we don't want our black kids sounding too white. Authentic blacks must sound like the hood, love rap and Kentucky Fried. I would never trust any black that eats "sushi"; which is probably what those traitors, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas eat. If Justice Thomas would have answered his phone with a "What up!" and a heartfelt "A-muri-ka sucks", the NAACP would have championed him as a true brother faithful to his blackness. Sadly, Rice and "Uncle Thomas" as we call him, chose the character, education and hard work route to success. How disgusting!

Yes, you libs are soooo good to us. I really appreciate "b" actresses like Janeane Garofalo putting that Uncle Tom, RNC Chairman, Michael Steele in his place when she said he suffered from Stockholm Syndrome. How dare he not view himself as a victim of white America. How dare he empower young blacks with the knowledge that they can achieve without liberal intervention. What an ungrateful, well, you know the word I'm thinking. It begins with an "N".

In closing, you libs, please keep up the good work. With your continued diligence, we minorities and most Americans will not have to work or be responsible for anything. Your president is in the process of confiscating the wealth from those greedy rich white SOBs and redistributing it to us. Right on!

Now, if I can just figure out how to tie my shoes all by myself. But if I can't, I know you libs are there for me. Fighting back tears of overwhelming gratitude, again, I thank you.

Cordially yours,

Lloyd Marcus

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


No, Wulfie, I haven't read the articles yet. Sorry, but I'm busy. Slammed, really. I got a few minutes to post some snark on my lunch break, and now I'm just about to head down to the convention center to set up for the annual Xmas show and try to rake in some long green, so your articles took a back seat to my need to eat this week.

But from the one you just posted...

Quote:



So, now you former hippie boomers are in total control of government, colleges and public schools, still selling your Utopian message of peace and love. Thanks for getting rid of black dads in the home via your welfare programs. I mean, everyone knows dads are cruel chauvinists who beat and molest their kids.



Really? The "former hippie boomers" are in "total control"? Really?

Are you actually stupid enough to believe that?

If that's the level of tripe you consider informed opinion, I'd rather not waste my time reading the garbage that influences you.

Now I've got to get back to work. Busy-busy! I'll be pulling 16-hour days from now thru Sunday, but hopefully it'll be worth it.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Weak response, btw....

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wulf, we could all get along if you didn't hurl invectives all the time and spew your hatred of so many things and people, and speak in generalizations to hurl it. It occurred to me that I rarely, if ever, see you agree with anyone or say anything even slightly decent to anyone or about anyone or any group of people. There’s your answer as to why we can’t all get along.

Oppyh, I agree, to a point. I would put the percentage quite a bit higher, tho’, and tho’ mostly in the South, as you can see from what Byte wrote, it’s spread across the country. Had a friend, supervisor at a job where I worked for years long ago (I can see an inevitable question: “So why aren’t you still friends?” so will say before you ask that a) she lives in the City and I rarely go there and she doesn’t drive, b) I don’t socialize with ANYONE anymore, have not kept in touch with more than a couple of my old friends, and am pretty much a hermit; okay?). She moved here from New York…very sophisticated woman and I might say downright gorgeous. She was looking for a place to live; called on an ad; she and the woman hit it off right away, many things in common, the woman was thrilled and wanted to be friends, they talked about doing things together. She went to see the place.

As she’s walking up the path, she saw the woman standing at the door with a big smile, then her face changed when she saw her get out of the car. She told my friend the place was already rented in a flat voice, and said goodbye…no mention of friendship, doing things together, etc. This is supposedly a very tolerant area, definitely a liberal one, so again, I certainly wouldn’t put it at 2%. If you listed politicians and representatives, it’s obvious that both conscious racism and SUBCONSCIOUS racism exists throughout the country. They may claim they're not racist, but they follow it by saying things which prove the opposite quite clearly.

And yes, I find it embarrassing as well, and shameful.

JS, that is the biggest batch of bullshit I’ve heard in ages. I’ve NEVER seen “Christian white males” treated or spoken about the way you described. They are still pretty much the majority in power, corporate and political, so yes, there’s resentment. Not because they’re white or Christian, but because of their lack of acceptance of those who AREN’T, such as women. But what you describe are things I’ve never, ever seen.

I can’t speak to the other two (and I won’t TOUCH Garofolo, she’s an embarrassment), but Olbermann and Maddow are quick to complain about Obama when he’s not doing what they want…I watch them and I’ve heard them. I’m disappointed in him myself, I feel he’s too conciliatory and I don’t agree with some of his policies or actions. Ooops, I should have blamed them on racism, shouldn’t I, since I’m currently pretty much of a lib? Damn.

The fact is, MANY dems are unhappy with Obama and don’t blame it on racism at all. To say otherwise is to be blind and unable to see the truth around you. I would suggest you try to open your mind more, but from what you write, it would appear to take a heavy crowbar to do so and I don’t think you have any desire to anyway. Your comments rank right up there with Wulf’s “hippie libs” and deserve just about as much attention…which is a shame, as it would make you more able to engage in civil repartee.

Wulf, that first link is pathetic…it doesn’t deserve debating because it’s so fallacious and slanted. The second, I’ll give you racism as being in part behind gun-control laws, but I’ll add that the fear is equally behind those AGAINST gun-control, who want to own guns to protect themselves from the “others”. The article also doesn’t state anywhere that this mentality is held more by dems than repubs, in fact most of the historical restrictions of Blacks bearing arms cited relate to racism—-you’d have to prove how many of the gun adcocates and gun-control advocates feel that way because they are motivated by fear of African-Americans and/or others, and you’ve shown no proof on that issue.

The third again says nothing specifically about liberals, except perhaps the correlation that affirmative action was BEGUN “as a means to redress discrimination”. Whether it worked out right or wrong, that means the initial concept was to MITIGATE racism, so does not point to liberal racism. The article presents the case against affirmative action, nothing else.

The fact that dems/liberals are synonymous with gun control and affirmative action is fallacious, as many of us recognize affirmative action has gone beyond its original intent and has become a negative. Once again you are lumping a myriad of different attitudes into one category and labeling them all “racist”. I acknowledge that some reverse racism exists, as well as some “White man guilt”, but that doesn’t prove your argument, and lumping people all together then accusing them of something is just plain erroneous.

The third article is laughable, and little else. I think I’ve looked up links to American Thinker before and found it to be a wholly-slanted right-wing extremist site, but I read it anyway. Marcus is blaming “white, liberal America” for getting Black dads out of the home??? And accepting black kids who speak Ebonics in school means liberals feel it would be racist “to expect us simple minded colored folks to learn to speak English correctly”? My goodness; what happened to personal responsibility—liberals are to blame for absolutely everything negative in Black society I guess? Guys who dump their families to fend for themselves and families who don't bother to teach their kids English are the fault of liberal racism....?

Sorry, none of those wash or stand the test of validity to “prove” liberals are racist in any way. But they DO show what you believe proves liberals are racist, which is very telling.

Dream pretty much covered the rest of what I would have to say on the matter.





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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"The fact that dems/liberals are synonymous with gun control and affirmative action is fallacious, as many of us recognize affirmative action has gone beyond its original intent and has become a negative."

I call bullshit and shenanigans on this one.

"My goodness; what happened to personal responsibility"

Yeah. E X A C T L Y.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:49 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


bump

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You just in essence contradicted yourself. Either you want to claim libs/dems are racist for causing African-American men to abandon their families and kids not learning to read English, or you blame the people themselves for not taking personal responsibility for such things. Which is it?

As to calling bullshit and shenanegans, it once again points to the fact that you categorize groups of people and can't seem to conceive that among them are different people with different beliefs. ALL libs have to fit into your narrow category...so what are they if they're Democrats, liberals, believe in many of the liberal beliefs, but think affirmative action is no longer a good idea? Where do you lump them THEN?

If you cared to bother, you'd end up with about a million different "categories" to lump people into. Too bad it's easier for you to lump us into a couple and ignore the differences, and that you have no desire whatsoever to recognize people as INDIVIDUALS.




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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:18 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"and that you have no desire whatsoever to recognize people as INDIVIDUALS."

HAH!

Thats what I've been driving at for so long.

You have no idea.

Individuals, learning to think for themselves, to see the good and to disregard the bad.

But, granted, you have to read through what I am saying to get that.

You have to drop your OWN prejudices, to see that.

Granted, it's hard to do that. To drop party lines, to drop preconceived notions, and start seeing the truth of things.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:28 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg




"Im no saint, but I believe in what's right."

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:46 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"You just in essence contradicted yourself. Either you want to claim libs/dems are racist for causing African-American men to abandon their families and kids not learning to read English, or you blame the people themselves for not taking personal responsibility for such things. Which is it?"

BOTH.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:00 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg



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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:07 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg



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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 4:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Weak response, btw....



Ditto.

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Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Meh, I thought the whole idea of disliking this person or that person for someone else's reasons was idiotic when I was six, and my opinion of it ain't improved any since.

That said, I'd advise against discussing with me just how "persecuted" Christians are, believe me, one reason you would never, ever want me in a position of political power is that one way to keep or advance such a position is finding someone to kick to the bottom of the ladder and stomp on, and they'd be my first damn choice - cause like any other pack of scumbag bullies, most of their whining about "persecution" is them being pissed off at having their own persecutions blockaded by either law or human decency, two things that belief has historically, no respect whatever for - and these ARE the folks that brought the burning times, the crusades, the inquisition, book burnings, campaigns against literacy and medicine, and of course hypocrisy and sex scandals galore - not to mention involvement with the hellcamps.

So don't even get me started by pretending Christians are some kinda persecuted minority - I had my way, they'd find the fuck out what REAL persecution IS - remember one side of my ancestral line hearkens back to some of the nastier Saracen folk, who unlike Saladin, didn't think much of the idea of offering mercy to treacherous backstabbing gits who would simply take it for an opportunity to slam a knife in your back.

Lions ? ha! - I'd be bringing back wooden stakes and torches for a little poetic justice, cause what has that belief ever brought the world but misery.

That said, I am not especially intolerant, but I do have a keen edge to grind against a belief seemingly based on the puerile malice of a vicious demon-god who apparently feeds on human misery and revels in bloodshed, hate and intolerance - most of whos followers aren't at all shy about wanting to see anyone who isn't THEM dead and roasting in "hell" - and who think they got some kinda divine right to ram their beliefs down the throats of others on a pike.

So don't come whining about "persecution" of Christians to me, not now, not ever.

-Frem
"Oh pitiful soul, lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others..."

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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 8:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Who is talking about the "persecution of Christians"? Personally, if your belief system cannot stand up to the harsh light of history and truth, then its not really worth it.

The Christians murdered innocents, Jews learned from the Nazis (Palestine), MLK was an adulterer... history is messy.

But again, there is always something good from the bad.

Its rare that things are easy, and completely black and white.


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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Who is talking about the "persecution of Christians"?




Apparently, Jongsie was:

Quote:

Modern racism is no longer about hurting or insulting. These days it is used almost exclusively as a weapon to destroy or attempt to destroy a person or organization's reputation. It seems the biggest racists today are Blacks and liberals. Liberal political correctness has put everyone who isn't a white Christian male into a special victim's category. Dare ye tresspass into that area and you will certainly get accused and besmirched. Some even go as far as stating that if you disagree with Obama on anything you are a racist. And liberal mouthpieces like Olbermann, Mahr & Garafalo blame Obama's failed policies, his plummeting poll numbers, and general ineptitude on....racism, of course. How handy to have that around! Now Obama himself is too clever to jump on that theme, and he doesn't have to. He simply blames Bush for everything. The whole lot of them are despicable. It's like they have a little checklist....oooh that's racist....oh that's ok...oooh another racist, well he's a Dem, so ok....yep racist... no not racist...on and on 24 hours a day. Thank God we have people who can label others for us.




Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's amazing.
Quote:

Individuals, learning to think for themselves, to see the good and to disregard the bad.
For someone who not only doesn't see the good and disregard the bad, you constantly attack people and put them in categories--usually ones that don't relate to the actual PEOPLE, you say the most amazing things.

I read what you write, as I do everyone else. What you write is visceral judgments of people AS non-individuals, but seen by you THROUGH your pre-condeived notions, and you make no effort to even conceive of the idea, nor reply to the suggestion, that "hippie-libs" might think for themselves and not be exactly what your preconception of them is.

How can you write what you did and not see it in yourself??

As to contradiction, you put the argument up in a link to make the point that libs are racist. The author said NOTHING about personal responsibility and blamed both problems purely on "liberal racism". So I guess you are contradicting the author of the link by saying that both are to blame. So what you and he conceive of as "liberal racism" isn't to blame for EVERYTHING you're saying? That's almost a nuanced view; congrats.




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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:13 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki,

Scared yet?

People are finally calling shenanigans on the belief system your generation propagated.


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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:37 PM

BYTEMITE


The problem, as I see it, is circular. As I said, there's racism and there's reverse racism.

Prior to Niki's generation, I would argue that segregation laws limited the opportunities of ethnic minorities. Particularly blacks, though there were also less official rules in regards to particularly Japantowns and Chinatowns and Little Italies. Other enclaves existed as well, Cubans and Puerto Ricans are the ones that most come to my mind.

In any case, Niki's generation did a lot of good in highlighting the dissimilarities. Their intentions were good, to try to make constitutional rights apply to ethnic minorities as well.

The problem comes from Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action was created to try to limit racism through law, which in some ways could be considered necessary at the time. But Affirmative Action is a self-perpetuating policy, so long as there is racism, there will unfortunately need to be a balance, which will itself generate racial resentment.

At some point, the protective treatment will eventually need to be removed, but I'm not convinced it's done it's job well enough yet. Maybe once we fix the education system so there's a painless way to get out of ghettos.

The difficulty, of course, will be trying to strike Affirmative Action when the time DOES come... Very hard to do that in a politically correct manner.

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Wednesday, November 18, 2009 2:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Niki,

Scared yet?

People are finally calling shenanigans on the belief system your generation propagated.




Really? I should be scared because someone said the word "shenanigans"? Is that like River's safe word, and you think, like Jayne did, that it will put US all to sleep to hear it said aloud?

Again, Wulfie, you're propagating gross generalizations. You seem to think that "our generation" is only capable of holding one single belief system. Is that really how you think things work? What is YOUR generation's single belief system, then? I note for the record that young voters turned out en masse for Obama. Are you saying your generation is all lefty-liberals? And since you're of your generation, doesn't that make you one of the lefty-loons?

You really, REALLY need to work on your wording. You are your own worst enemy.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, November 19, 2009 10:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"You really, REALLY need to work on your wording. You are your own worst enemy."

Granted. I actually agree with this sentence.

lol

But, then again, I don't think I need to babysit adults either.

Why should I play nice, (when at last count, I've never seen anyone do that if they disagree) and placate idiots... or reword things to be less offensive?


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Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good gawd, why on earth would I be scared?
Quote:

People are finally calling shenanigans on the belief system your generation propagated
I'm afraid you'd have to be more specific, I know I got into a lot of shenanians myself, but if you mean fighting for civil rights, marching to pull us out of a devastating war, working for the environment, being politically informed and active, striving for women's rights...I don't consider those "shenanigans", and they laid a lot of groundwork for good things happening today.

I already said Affirmative Action may have outlived its usefulness, which is the ONLY thing Byte said that I disagree with...so I guess you, yourownself, are incapable of "learning to think for themselves, to see the good and to disregard the bad."

You know next to nothing about me, and my "generation" was made up MORE of middle-class, apathetic people than it was of activists, so which category do you want to lump who into? And if you're lumping people, what exactly has "your" generation contributed lately? As Mike said, you can't be talking about the current generations, as they WORKED and voted to get Obama elected...and the previous ones elected Dumbya, so, what exactly?

"reword things to be less offensive?" Because if you did, you might just get more reasonable discussions, exchanges and debate with people, rather than just pissing them off and making them strike back on your level...except I think that's what you WANT, actually.




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Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"reword things to be less offensive?" Because if you did, you might just get more reasonable discussions, exchanges and debate with people, rather than just pissing them off and making them strike back on your level...except I think that's what you WANT, actually."

Oh Im sorry.

I should pretend to believe what you believe. That way, when I start to open your mind, it will be easier to do.

Well, I dont have the time or the patience to do that.

I prefer to give you the facts, piss you off, and when you are at home... lying in bed late at night thinking about things..

You shake yourself from your trance, and realize what you had been promoting was wrong.


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Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"You shake yourself from your trance, and realize what you had been promoting was wrong."

Hello Wulf,

I do not think the reality that you have created for your Inner Space matches the reality that exists in Outer Space. If you do not find a way to bridge the two, you will soon find yourself interacting with phantoms.

I recommend relating to the world and the people in it as they exist, and not as you fantasize them to be. I have noticed, for instance, that you are often inspired by movies. This is fine, because works of fiction have been the inspiration for real life changes of thought since the dawn of Drama. However, it is important to understant that fictional worlds are populated by fictional people who react and behave exactly how the fiction writer prefers. While a particular idea in fiction may be inspiring, fiction should not exclusively be used as a tool for understanding people or society as a whole. Also, fiction has the problem that its story ends at a time and place useful to the author. In real life, time marches on, so that more consequences are evident.

A good example of how fiction can inspire, but NOT be a tool to understand people as a whole, is in the works of Heinlein. In some of the science fiction works of Heinlein, it is posited that human relationships will evolve to the point where jealousy is a nonexistant concept. In some of his works, open marraiges do not merely exist, but they are the standard state of affairs. (A bit of a pun there.) The reader is presented with a logical argument as to why jealousy is foolish and harmful. Now, while I think it would be wonderful if human beings could surrender the sentiment of jealousy and ownership in relationships, that does not mean I expect to explain this to the average American and convert them by the strength of my convictions or arguments. Nor do I expect married people, after having spoken to me, to wake up in the middle of the night and have a Eureka! moment where they suddenly surrender their previous mindset in favor of the one I have advocated. I myself, who can see the logic of shrugging off jealousy, am chronically unable to do so.

Convincing people of things takes time and patience and hard work. You generally can't do it by shouting at them. You must address them from their own perspective, and gradually shine light on a new path. If you don't have time to do that, then you're simply wasting the time you do have. The only people who will respond to your sentiments are the people who already hold them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I see I have indeed, wasted my time.
Fuck you Wulf - if you will not learn, then you will burn.

-Frem
"This is vengeance...
So I am to ferry you to Hell."

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:42 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


bias?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/sep/29/media-double-standard-
revealed-in-trump-16-vs-obam
/

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2017/01/msm-gave-57-time
s-more-coverage-to-trumps-immigration-order-vs-obamas-cuban-refugee-halt


http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/315826-in-2009-media-drool
ed-over-obama-to-trump-they-bare-their-teeth


on the flip side,

Fox News’ Chris Wallace today talked about President Trump‘s treatment of the liberal media by recalling how President Obama used to treat Fox News.

Wallace told Harris Faulkner that if you look at other networks, there’s a lot of negative coverage, some of which he’s personally “troubled” by. But he did say that “a lot of it is accurate reporting of things the president doesn’t like.”

.


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