Fireflyfans Grammar & Posting Help Q&A Thread by chrisisall

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

So I think the 1st line is right, 2nd wrong, 3rd right, 4th right, 5th wrong, 6th right in context wrong for correctness, 7th right, 8th wrong, 9th right.

According to this: http://www.meredith.edu/grammar/plural.htm

Firefly's a good design.[RIGHT] Serenitys' primary buffer panel came off.[WRONG]- Serenity's Serenity's a great movie.[RIGHT] "Objects In Space" is my favourite episode.[RIGHT] "Objects In Space"'s my favourite episode.[NOT COVERED (but I think it's wrong)] Mal said, "Got no need to beat ya..."[NOT COVERED (but I think it's right)] Mal's got a gun.[RIGHT] Mals' gun was fired.[WRONG]-Mal's Serenity lost its primary buffer panel.[RIGHT]

The SCHOOLED Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:48 PM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules: I have noticed that a lot of folks here use ... often. What does it mean and what is it's proper usage.

*scribbly teacher writing* Meaning unclear, its requires no apostrophe.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:24 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I wrote this ages ago: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=30118 Help yourself :wink:

[/sig]

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:34 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules: I have noticed that a lot of folks here use ... often. What does it mean and what is it's proper usage.

*scribbly teacher writing* Meaning unclear, its requires no apostrophe.

I don't think I'll be using ellipses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis anytime soon. The definition just confused me more than I already was, but I see that the meaning has a lot to do with the context.

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 3:34 PM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose: I wrote this ages ago: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=12&t=30118 Help yourself :wink:

Excellent!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 3:52 PM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules: I don't think I'll be using ellipses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis anytime soon.

You might..., sooner than you think.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:30 PM

SCHISM

Currently taking an editing course in my Technical Writer's certification, so let's see what I can see....

==============

Firefly's a good design. --> good

Serenitys' primary buffer panel came off. --> you only put the apostrophe after the S if the word ENDS in an S. For example, Bill and Chris would be Bill's and Chris'.

Serenity's a great movie. --> good

"Objects In Space" is my favourite episode. --> good

"Objects In Space"'s my favourite episode. --> can't rightly say, but it don't look right. I dare say there is no grammatical allowance for this scenario. I think it's just plain wrong.

Mal said, "Got no need to beat ya..." --> good

Mal's got a gun. --> i bet he does.

Mals' gun was fired. --> no. see above re: Serenitys'

Serenity lost its primary buffer panel. --> oh god oh god we're all gonna die? i mean...correct.

==============

*throws two cents in the hat*

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence

Generally what I use them for...

My biggest grammar peeve is "your" and "you're". That buffer panel wasn't yours, but you're going to get in trouble for letting it fall off!

"Your" implies ownership. "You're" says "You are".

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

I ain't not no gorran grammar nazi but I believe that adding " 's " after a word is meant to replace the words "is" or "has" and others.

Yes. And genitive cases, of course, like:

Mal's gun. Serenity's primary buffer panel.

And contractions in possessive pronouns, like:

he's (became his) her's (became hers)

So, the s is generally added, except when the word already ends in s; then you use just an apostrophe, as in:

Joss' masterpiece, Firefly.

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:13 PM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism: Currently taking an editing course in my Technical Writer's certification, so let's see what I can see....

I love this community; we are mighty!

The linguistic Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:17 PM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism: For example, Bill and Chris would be Bill's and Chris'.

Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey...? I trust the dudes, dude.:evil:

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:

"Objects In Space"'s my favourite episode. --> can't rightly say, but it don't look right. I dare say there is no grammatical allowance for this scenario. I think it's just plain wrong.

Interesting case. HAS to be wrong, indeed. Dunno why exactly, but this I know: it would be wrong if it were right. :)

Also, English has the (rather ugly, IMHO) habit of putting punctuation inside quotation marks. European style would be:

"Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right, we'd be in jail", spoken by Wash, was a great line.

In American English:

"Sweetie, we're crooks. If everything were right, we'd be in jail," spoken by Wash ...

Especially gross on small-word enumerations, like:

"One," "Two," "Three," etc. Breaks the symmetry of things. :) Anyways, if anything, it would probably ere be:

"Objects In Space's" my favourite episode.

It still looks wrong, though. :)

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

No contraction with a quote. "OiS" is my fave ep.

possesive maybe OiS's symbolisms are well explored.

Being a forum of the Verse, favorite is spelled wrong, having the Verse devolved from Chinese and American - not Britian.

And Versespeak donno have folks, just folk.

:D

I should point out my grammar is shot this week while watching NYPD Blue seasons 3&4 on my new bigscreen. Them people ain't speakin right.

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan: possesive maybe OiS's symbolisms are well explored.

That would be:

OiS' symbolisms. :)

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:40 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian: Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan: possesive maybe OiS's symbolisms are well explored.

That would be:

OiS' symbolisms. :)

I was using the abbreviation for shorthand, not example. Object in Space's symbolisms are well explored. Happy now? OiS' symbolisms. is not a complete sentence.

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:51 PM

RCAT

I had many english teachers who forbid writing in "dialect". I assume this was because they were trying to teach correct english and also (probably the main reason) that dialect rarely has any solid rules, making it impossible to grade. As long as the expression has the right candence and flow I don't think writing or speaking in the outer-rim style has a correct/incorrect to it. Use incorrect conjunctions, uncommon synonyms, shortend words and the occasional chinese, as long as there's a poetry about it.

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Sunday, February 08, 2009 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan: OiS' symbolisms. is not a complete sentence.

Sure it is:

What will you be studying today? "OiS' symbolisms."

See? Works like a charm.

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 09, 2009 2:38 AM

SCHISM

Ultimately, grammar rules are of no use to anyone except teachers. I've been writing fiction as a hobby for the past 15 years, and I still can't rightly say what a Verb or a Preposition is (for which I'm suffering from in my editing class).

I've always just gone by what looks right, and so far so good. ;)

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Monday, February 09, 2009 3:19 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

(Speaking as a professional stock market research editor who has had to do editing before the market opens, which means before sunrise and coffee.)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: You might..., sooner than you think.

Okay so either use an ellipsis OR a comma. Don't use them both. And never use a comma after an ellipsis.

In fact, just avoid the ellipsis. Everybody should do that.

No, its doesn't need an apostrophe, unless it's necessary.

And believe me, it took a helluva long time to figure out the difference. I think I had to read "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" before I got it.

SCHISM: That was me as well, until I became an editor and they made me learn it. The advantage of being a professional writer is that Universe-willing, you'll have an editor who is supposed to know that better than you anyway.

Were I to finally publish professionally, however, I would be screwed. Why? Because I would have to make sure my work was grammatically emaculate in the same fashion that some people do some picking up before the cleaning lady shows up.

I am a Grammarian cursed with a head for good spelling and a twitch for editing. :disappointed: I am doomed.

Quote:
"Objects In Space"'s my favourite episode.

Phonetically, that would be:

Quote:
"Objects in Space"ez my favorite episode.

So, all you really did here is save yourself one keystroke by taking out the space and putting in an apostrophe-s, which just made it sound weird, right? Does that sound right to you?

Sometimes you can get away with a plural on a proper noun, sometimes you can't. As with all grammar, it's a case-by-case basis, but in my opinion this plunks right into the can't category.

If you want to express that "Objects in Space" is your favorite episode, do it the decency of adding the extra space and using is instead of 's. The best way to express your love for something is to write about it correctly.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703 Doing the impossible makes us mighty Minnesota Browncoats http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

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Monday, February 09, 2009 4:55 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rcat: I had many english teachers who forbid writing in "dialect".

If you currently have such teachers, they would forbid writing in dialects. If you once had such teachers, they once forbade writing in dialects. I disagree that dialects don't have rules, but maybe it would be difficult to keep track of the rules for all dialects. And I think grammar rules are of use to everyone. If a language disintegrates from sheer laziness, eventually communication breaks down. Most especially when most communication is in written form, such as it is here, it's important to express yourself properly, at least enough to be mostly understood. Tone of voice is difficult to express in writing, so things can still be interpreted wrong, but if they are at least you can know you tried your best.

[/sig]

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Monday, February 09, 2009 4:55 AM

Going to be contrary for a spell. :)

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain: The best way to express your love for something is to write about it correctly.

In German philosophy your last sentence would be called a Leerformel (= lit. empty formula). Kinda like when Plato, in his Republic, states: "A friend ought always to do good to a friend and never evil," yet fails to define what 'good' and 'evil' are then. So, I'm sure we can all agree that the following sounds weird,

"Objects in Space"ez my favorite episode.

And that we ought to write correctly, but WHAT is correct here? I mean, what does the grammar book say about apostrophes and quotes? I can't find anything about it, really, that's pertinent to the example at hand. Also, seems you're sidestepping the issue a bit. I can easily change the example to:

"Ariel"'s my favorite episode.

So, where would the apostrophe go? I still say, if anywhere, then probably inside:

"Ariel's" my favorite episode.

But, like I said earlier, that still feels wrong. Okay, let's complicate matters: only the apostrophe this time. :)

"War Stories'" my favorite episode.

Inside or outside? Or not at all? The latter is probably the safest bet, as I very much doubt apostrophes following a quotation mark are allowed. Still, I would like to know officially.

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 09, 2009 4:58 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

In fact, just avoid the ellipsis. Everybody should do that.

But...but...I'd be lost at sea- adrift. Ellipsises are the...well, cruxes of my posts! :evil:

The elletirite Chrisisall

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:06 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

So, where would the apostrophe go? I still say, if anywhere, then probably inside:

"Ariel's" my favorite episode.

In writing it, I would default to: "Ariel" is my favourite episode. In speaking, I would probably toss out: Arielz my favourite ep.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:08 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
asarian said: Going to be contrary for a spell. :)

OOH! Someone else who doesn't mind being contrary :biggrin: YAY!

Quote:
"War Stories'" my favorite episode.

Inside or outside? Or not at all? The latter is probably the safest bet, as I very much doubt apostrophes following a quotation mark are allowed. Still, I would like to know officially.

Since we started out talking about writing, I vote not at all:

"War Stories" is my favorite episode.

It's even that much harder to write, doesn't twist the brain, AND avoids the whole pesky question - where the heck does that darn apostrophe go anyhow?

Quote:
asarian said: In German philosophy your last sentence would be called a Leerformel (= lit. empty formula). Kinda like when Plato, in his Republic, states: "A friend ought always to do good to a friend and never evil," yet fails to define what 'good' and 'evil' are then.

This is falling into a whole different area of ethics (what is good and what is evil, and what did Plato mean by doing good to a friend, and what was Plato's definition of evil) that is entirely brain twisting and should be in another thread.

However, that German philosophy of yours is quite true. It would be interesting to determine how many quotes by famous authors were in fact Leerformels. Proust may not be as brilliant as I thought :wink:

I would submit that punctuation will continue to be the bain of any writer's existence. "Grammar for Grownups" says that most people deal with it in one of two ways; either through over use, or complete non-use.

For those of us who are pretty good with punctuation, we tend to go with what "sounds" and "feels" right, even after we learn all the rules.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703 Doing the impossible makes us mighty Minnesota Browncoats http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:15 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
chrisisall and his ellipsis: But...but...I'd be lost at sea- adrift. Ellipsises are the...well, cruxes of my posts! :evil:

Yes. Well. A friend of mine on Facebook is also addicted to those infernal little dots. I haven't talked to him about it yet. I might. I might not.

When those infernal little dots are used the way they're supposed to be, I have no problem with them. When they're used for "dramatic effect" or as a "personal style," I start to cringe. Most people who go with "personal style" are using that as an excuse to avoid learning any grammar at all and think that "text" spelling is cool.

Present company excluded. You haven't made me cringe yet.

There's only one man in the 'verse that I know who used the infernal little dots brilliantly. I can't write in the same RP with him or speak his name anymore for other reasons, but the man knew how to weild the infernal little dots.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703 Doing the impossible makes us mighty Minnesota Browncoats http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain: Quote:
asarian said: Going to be contrary for a spell. :)
OOH! Someone else who doesn't mind being contrary :biggrin: YAY!

Yeah, well, I'm known for that. :)

(Always wanted to use that line, LOL)

Quote:
Since we started out talking about writing, I vote not at all:

"War Stories" is my favorite episode.

It's even that much harder to write, doesn't twist the brain, AND avoids the whole pesky question - where the heck does that darn apostrophe go anyhow?
I agree. The longer I look at an apostrophe 'glued' to a quotation mark, either inside or outside, the more wrong it feels. There's got to be a rule against it, even if I can't find it. Also, in some fonts, like used on FFF.net, you can't even tell whether it's just one apostrophe followed by a quotation mark, or vice versa (!), or simply three apostrophes in a row. :)

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:30 AM

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
asarian said: Also, in some fonts, like used on FFF.net, you can't even tell whether it's just one apostrophe followed by a quotation mark, or vice versa (!), or simply three apostrophes in a row. :)

Mmmmmm... *sigh* Fonts. Fonts are better than Chocolate to a Typeophile such as myself. Better than the chocolate that is better than sex. :wink:

The display font in FFF.net is Trebuchet, sans the "Typographer's quotes", or what MSWord calls "smart quotes" and the rest of the world calls "curly quotes". It's better that way, actually, because smart quotes generally don't display well on screen.

However when you're writing or editing a post, the font is good old 10-point Verdana.

Veteran of the Throes of Cancellation—FFF.net fan since 010703 Doing the impossible makes us mighty Minnesota Browncoats http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:32 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain: those infernal little dots

LOL, I shall attempt to reign in my liberal use of them.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:34 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Oh my.

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:35 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

That's three.

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Monday, February 09, 2009 5:36 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

HA HA!!! Quadruple post! Personal record!

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Monday, February 09, 2009 7:39 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Wow. Impressive feat, Chris.

I'm a contraction person. I have to edit them out of my papers because I frequently use them. Generally speaking, when writing you don't use contractions. Oops. Contractions are better suited to speech. Use them when quoting a person or writing dialogue.

Possessive is harder to edit out of your writing. Adding belongs to to every sentence would be tiring for both the writer and reader. Add an apostrophe and an /s/ unless you're using pronouns: ours, yours, hers, his, or its.

Where does this leave us in regards to adding an /s/ to "Objects in Space"? I do not know.:crap:I would put the /s/ outside the quotes or find another way of saying it.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. Anyone who's read my writing knows that I tend to write conversationally not formally.:wink:

Good luck!

--- Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night." -- Charlie Brown www.thatcostumegirl.com www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Monday, February 09, 2009 9:03 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Thanks TWG. Learning? Yes We Can!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 09, 2009 11:19 AM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Thanks TWG. Learning? Yes We Can!

The laughing Chrisisall

Having read the above posts I think I'd like to put forward the motion that the only way to correctly write the line about "Objects In Space" etc. is to add the IS after the quotes. As stated all the versions with the apostrophe and an s (in any combination) just look wrong.

Anyone wish to second that motion?

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Monday, February 09, 2009 12:57 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Serenity's a great movie.

"Objects In Space"'s my favourite episode.

two examples of the same thing- using " 's" as a contraction for "is".

It's spoken that way, but a waste of effort to write it that way. It produces an ugly garbled mess. But it may not be gramatically incorrect.

Which brings a point- in addition to formal grammar rule books, there are style guides, from certain organizations, that further define what they accept as correct usage in their publications. Two that come to mind, that I have dealt with, are The AP Stylebook, published by the Associated Press, and used extensively in Journalism; and, The MLA Stylebook, used in colleges and Universities. Both go beyond what is officially correct, and set their own standard of, " This is what we use and require." Anybody who wants to be a serious, professional writer should study one or both, and abide by it, grammar Nazis or not. You can't go far wrong if you follow them .

The standard on-line and for fan-fic is, of course, much lower. Bad grammar, bad usage, bad spelling, bad punctuation are pretty much the norm. You have to read such stuff always thinking, " This is what the author really meant." Only when it becomes so frequent as to distract does it become a problem. Even if you want to shout, " You DOOFUS! You can't even SPELL. How are we supposed to take anything you write seriously."

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Monday, February 09, 2009 8:11 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat: Only when it becomes so frequent as to distract does it become a problem.

It always distracts me, which is why I lub threads like this.

...yes, lub is a word. Thinkgeek uses it on their packaging, and that's good enough for me :wink:

[/sig]

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Monday, February 09, 2009 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat: Which brings a point- in addition to formal grammar rule books, there are style guides, from certain organizations, that further define what they accept as correct usage in their publications.

You bring up a very good point: it's not just about what is grammatically correct, but also what is desireable. So, even if an apostrophe after a quotation mark were correct (which I doubt), there's still good cause to reject it for style-reasons.

-- "Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:18 AM

Down the centuries you have slurred the meaning of the words, WE THE PEOPLE...

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

...yes, lub is a word.

This is how you start a sentence?

:blush::evil:

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:52 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose: ...yes, lub is a word.
This is how you start a sentence? :blush::evil:

*snort*

--- Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night." -- Charlie Brown www.thatcostumegirl.com www.thatweirdgirl.com

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:57 AM