GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I wanna do this one more time: Was Mal wrong when he shot that surrendering guy in Serenity?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Thursday, June 5, 2014 19:29
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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:19 PM

CHRISISALL


I've had this discussion many times, but I just wanted to see where it sits with y'all now.
My take:
Mal was pressed for time, a bit unhinged & stressed to the limit.
The surrendering dude was from the ship that killed Haven.
I would have done the same.
Some have said he might have been just a innocent cook or some such. That's gorram stupid. No cooks on an attack ship.
Yeah, Mal might have been quick with it, but how can you judge if you weren't there?

Oh, but you kinda WERE, seein' as it was a movie & all.

Thoughts? Again?

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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:49 PM

WHOZIT


The guy had killed a lot of people, it was more an execution.

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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:20 PM

WISHIMAY


Why we still talking about this??

You kill me and mine (AND KIDS) yer gonna get a bullet and I'm gonna be just thrilled you're dead...

P.S. Pretty sure the guy surrendering could have been doing so just to get them to lower their guard so he could kill them then.


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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:42 PM

CHRISISALL


I didn't see it that way, but could be...

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Wednesday, April 2, 2014 8:46 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:55 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Were they inclined to take prisoners ?
Nope.

If anything the just-following-orders creep shoulda been glad Mal and company were pressed for time and he got it quick and clean - had Mal sicced Jayne on him with time to spare that coulda been pretty unpleasant.
Quote:

I was gonna get me an ear, too!
-Jayne Cobb



-F

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:20 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

I was gonna get me an ear, too!
-Jayne Cobb

Jayne is a little cruel, isn't he? Mal, not so much.

Mal did do wrong because he did things out of order to heighten the drama. Second thing Mal should have done is find Book. First thing is check for enemies.

Inside the Alliance gunship is the first place to look for enemies, yet doing things right would have thrown off the pace of the movie and Mal is not suppose to be aware that he is inside a movie.

Mal shooting the surrendering man was very much one of those movie moments – totally artificial and completely disconnected from law, rules of war, and morality. Killing the surrendering man was very cinematic and did make good tactical sense because Mal was facing a mutinous crew and needed to assert his authority.

Besides, dead men don't plead for mercy or wiggle around when wire-roped to Serenity's bow. Mal is very practical. So is Joss Whedon, who did not want an R rating for his movie. Get a PG-13 with some quick justice, limited gore, roll the credits, The End.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:50 AM

OLDGUY

What Would Mal do ?


his journey started with "wars done...all just folk now..."

but he found himself once again at war..under attack...the captain who had to return to being a soldier knows how to find his way back to the dark places.

there was no time for taking prisoners
there was no value in the leftover dumb soldier who likely was just following orders..that guy was wanting to surrender..which means he had no purpose in the fight...else he would have made effort to engage rather than surrender.
it also presented a risk...not only that he might seek escape, etc like the original pilot episode, but that it would be a distraction for the crew he was about to lead into battle...anything that trooper might have said may have caused confusion and doubt for some of the crew...there was no room for doubt now...it was time to act..decisively....I don't know how much of this mindset Joss understands or has been exposed to, but I felt they captured it very well with his sudden and swift shooting decision.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:36 PM

MUTT999


Mal would never know it, but the guy he shot was the pilot of the ship that killed Book and the rest of Haven. Not that it matters. I always thought Mal did that guy a mercy by killing him quickly. Not too unlike the Alliance guy Mal shot back at the bank heist.


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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:42 PM

MIKER

Once I found Serenity



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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Frankly, judging by the state of the wreck the guy emerged from and the apparent climate of Haven and his chances of survival in general, he was already dead and didn't even know it. And that's even before he tried to peace time surrender (?) to a bunch of non-military personnel with a personal connection to the people he just massacred. That's just the cherry on top of the stupid.

The way people talk you'd think Mal was still in the Independent Army, and the war was still on. IHL doesn't apply because the events of the Serenity movie couldn't even qualify as a non-international armed conflict.

Only the Alliance pilot would've answered to a military tribunal, since he destroyed an entire town of civilians while theoretically in the service of the recognized government of that settlement. Most probably the operation would have been disavowed by the time he got to trial and he'd have been considered rogue. Seeing as how the Alliance isn't exactly gonna admit that it engages in state-sponsored terrorism.

There could be a criminal case for the shooting against Mal, but you couldn't really argue that what he did constitutes a war crime. He'd be tried in a civilian criminal court. And if it was up to the Alliance he would have been convicted of murder. But among us fans who know some of the context, there's probably an argument here for some pretty serious freakin' extenuating circumstances.

Quote:

Mal would never know it, but the guy he shot was the pilot of the ship that killed Book and the rest of Haven.


Oh he knew. Book said that the ship he shot down was the one that bombed them. It doesn't take a whole lot of figuring to realize that anyone emerging from that ship must have some responsibility for the attack.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:56 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by OLDGUY:
there was no time for taking prisoners
there was no value in the leftover dumb soldier who likely was just following orders...

When there is time to take prisoners and the prisoner is valuable, the prisoner often gets killed, anyway. What feels right at the moment is all that counts in the movies. And sometimes in the real world. I got a real example: killing bin Laden.

Legal and ethical aspects of Osama bin Laden's killing, such as his not being taken alive despite being unarmed and wounded and unconscious on the floor, were questioned by others, including Amnesty International. Also controversial was the decision to not release any photographic or DNA evidence of bin Laden's death to the public. As if the President did not want to be questioned. The Navy Seals would not keep quiet about how proud they were of themselves. I think Mal will not be writing about his proud day. He will have some doubts about what he did, but he's willing to burn in hell for what he has done. He is not wanting a book deal or a medal of valor or military pension.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden
www.amazon.com/No-Easy-Day-First-hand-Account-ebook/dp/B008MG1E4A/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:59 PM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Chris, good to see you still around.

As for your question, I can say without a doubt I would have done the same as Mal. The guy was on an attack ship that strafed a village full of refugees, some of them women and children, and killed them. Some may argue they were "ordered" to do so, but having been a soldier I can tell you I would have disobeyed such an order. Perhaps they pilots of the gunship were lied to about who was on Haven, but honestly one pass and a sensor sweep would have showed there were no ships there, no real weapons to speak of, and that women and children were on the ground.

The fact that Mal ended the man with a single round from his sidearm is a tad more merciful than I would have been in the same situation.

_______________________________________________

Holding the line since December '02!



C.O. 76th Independent Battalion


http://76thbattalion.proboards.com


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Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by OLDGUY:
I don't know how much of this mindset Joss understands or has been exposed to, but I felt they captured it very well with his sudden and swift shooting decision.

Sounds like experience talking, eh?

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:42 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
As for your question, I can say without a doubt I would have done the same as Mal.

We are not at tavern, drinking ourselves into a coma, so I call bullshit on "I would have done . . ."

Who, of us fans, would take a ride on Serenity with Mal? This is not hypothetical. Be truthful with yourself. Riding with Mal is like riding a class EF5 tornado into heaven. All of us would get off that boat at the first stop when we find out who the Captain really is. And sure as hell none of can be Mal. We could never make the decisions that Mal makes because we would not be there with him in those awful situations.

Mal would have a really hard decision to make if anybody had survived in Haven. Does Mal abandon survivors? Take them with him? Leave Doctor Tam behind to take care of them?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:49 PM

MUTT999


In both the movie and Shepherd's Tale, Book is killed by the ship. What's interesting is that in the novelization, the Operative himself kills Book. Comes at him from behind, right after Book shoots the ship down, and does that paralyzing hand trick he pulls on Mal. So Book can only stand there while the Operative gives the order to shoot. Book is riddled by bullets and then falls to the ground.


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Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:50 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Who, of us fans, would take a ride on Serenity with Mal? This is not hypothetical. Be truthful with yourself.


Mal is pretty much a raging human mess who occasionally approaches normalcy, and Jayne would actually be intolerable at the best of times. There's shootouts every planetside and week long periods of travel punctuated by sheer terror every now and then. There's not much money and food and water is rationed.

Serenity and the connection between the crew has it's charms, which is why it appeals to us, but living there would require some very real hardship.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 2:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Mal is pretty much a raging human mess who occasionally approaches normalcy

Oh, Mal can be fun...
"How much did I have to drink last night?"

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 2:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Oh, Mal can be fun...
"How much did I have to drink last night?"



Fun, but still a mess. And when he's a raging mess, either in the sense of emotionally raging or in the sense of the quantity of mess that is happening... *wince* That is when people are shot. Most often him.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 2:25 PM

CHRISISALL


Thing is I see a soft side to Mal, why else would he let Simon get away with that sucker punch when they got back from the Reaver chase? Way I see it, a hard man'd slap a beatdown on a fella for less.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:01 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by MUTT999:
In both the movie and Shepherd's Tale, Book is killed by the ship. What's interesting is that in the novelization, the Operative himself kills Book. Comes at him from behind, right after Book shoots the ship down, and does that paralyzing hand trick he pulls on Mal. So Book can only stand there while the Operative gives the order to shoot. Book is riddled by bullets and then falls to the ground.

Let's compare how Book makes life/death decisions with Mal's methods. From the novelization, they are very similar: http://books.google.com/books?isbn=141652391X
Quote:

Bernabe fought in a brutal war. Throughout, even though he knew plenty who got wounded, and plenty more who died, he never got hurt his own self. Mal once called him a good luck charm, but Bernabe just figured he was good at ducking, was all.

So until this moment, he'd never felt a bullet rip through his flesh.

As he fell to the ground, his bizarre thought was, hotter than I figured . . .

The bullet had gone through his back and out through his belly, and was 'round about what having a hot metal pipe shoved through your stomach probably felt like, though that, too, had never happened to Bernabe. To make up for it, he supposed, he couldn't feel a damn thing in his legs.

He did manage to roll over onto his back, though, and so he saw the man who shot him. It was some Alliance man wearing some kind of armor and carrying a pistol. He was now aiming it at Bernabe's head.

Guess I'll be joinin' you and the kids soon, Mildred.

Then the Alliance man fell down. Only then did Bernabe see Shepherd Book standing behind him with a mining tool he'd hit the Alliance man on the back of the head with.

Book then knelt down beside Bernabe. "Lie still, son—it's pretty bad, but we'll get you to a doctor soon-like."

"Shepherds ain't—supposed to lie." Bernabe could taste the blood in his mouth as he spoke.

A shot buzzed by—Bernabe felt it more than heard it. Moving remarkable fast, Book rolled over to Alliance man he'd thumped, grabbed the same gun Bernabe had been shot with, and shot another Alliance man.

"Shepherds ain't—supposed to be—shootin' people neither." Bernabe knew that folks what came Haven had pasts they didn't talk about—he knew mainly on account of he was one—but a preacher who was a crack shot went beyond what he was expecting.

Without another word, Book ran over to the cannon. Gently removing Doane's body and laying it on ground all respectful-like, he then leapt into the firing chair and whirled it on the Alliance ship just as it finished raining down fire on the shepherd's own church and adjoining garden.

Though Bernabe didn't rightly recognize the specific class of ship, he was familiar with the design type behind it. Was fair similar to the Striker-class that the Alliance favored during the war. This was souped up beyond all good sense, but Bernabe figured the engine core was in the same place.

He knew this mainly because Book's first and only shot went right to the spot on the undercarriage where Bernabe reckoned the core was.

Ship blew up a second later, crashing to the ground not too far from the cannon.

Shepherds ain't supposed to shoot down no ships. Bernabe was unable to make his mouth work no more. though, so was he stuck with just thinking it.

Which also meant Bernabe couldn't warn Book about the man who was coming up behind him. The man, who wore funny glasses, struck Book in the back. Book didn't move after that.

"Impressive. I must confess, while I expected some minor damage, I hadn't expected this." Then the man's eyes widened. "Ah, Derrial. Given what I've read about you, this was the last place I expected to see you. And the last mode of dress, for that matter. Oh, you don't know me, so you don't need to widen your eyes like that. But I know all about you, which I daresay is more than can be said for the good people who have just died all around you. Or, for that matter, your former mates on Serenity." The man with the glasses sighed. "Under other circumstances, I might consider using the blade on you, but that is a thing of honor— and a man of the cloth shooting down a fully staffed vessel hardly qualifies as honorable. It barely qualifies as human." The man shook his head. "If only Captain Reynolds could see you now."

Then the man turned and walked away, signaling to somebody. Bernabe couldn't see who did the shooting, but he heard the shots—round about a dozen, all plowing into Shepherd Book who, thanks to whatever the man had done to his back, had to just be standing there and taking it.

He thought he saw Book fall to the ground, but it was hard to tell, as his vision was getting a mite fuzzy. What distressed Bernabe most was the not knowing. Alliance never bothered Haven none—that was why it was such a haven. And Bernabe'd never seen the man with the glasses before in his life. That man knew the shepherd, true, but that didn't go toward explaining anything.

Bernabe died on the dirt of his adopted home, never knowing why.



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:27 PM

CHRISISALL


I'd like to think it wasn't the Operative that personally killed Book- that's just a little too melodramatic/comic book for me. That he sent the ship in was enough.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:48 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thing is I see a soft side to Mal, why else would he let Simon get away with that sucker punch when they got back from the Reaver chase? Way I see it, a hard man'd slap a beatdown on a fella for less.



Not saying he's always hard. Not even saying he doesn't have his admirable qualities or his friendly side. Saying he's a mess. Sometimes with anger issues.

It's like, this kid you know was bright and cheerful and idealistic, and he signs up for the army and gets deployed in Iraq. When he comes back, turns out the family farm got taken by the banks, his parents died, and who even knows where his highschool sweetheart went.

He's got nothing, but somehow he scrapes together the money to buy a home and even gets some roommates and renters moved in who seem like nice people except for that one guy who seems like kind of a thug. He seems like he's doing okay, he can still crack a joke, even though he can also be grumpy and cynical and impatient and he doesn't really take to new people anymore and he's been stockpiling guns for some reason.

Then you find out that he and his roommates have started smuggling drugs from Canada and tequila and canned food from Mexico and sometimes they hold up banks and steal from gated communities and other zany schemes. They get into shoot outs a lot and whenever things go wrong, and it always does, they gets away by the skin of their teeth by him coming up with some randomly improvized plan. Despite all this, they're always poor, and they rarely can afford to eat better than ramen noodles most nights. His girlfriend is a nice lady, pretty classy, who's also a prostitute.

Taken altogether, is this someone who makes you think, wow, they've really got it together, they have control of their life and they know where it's going?

He's a mess. Yeah, he's got reasons he's like that, yeah he's still a likeable guy, but he's a mess.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:52 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Under other circumstances, I might consider using the blade on you, but that is a thing of honor— and a man of the cloth shooting down a fully staffed vessel hardly qualifies as honorable. It barely qualifies as human." The man shook his head. "If only Captain Reynolds could see you now."


Wow. The novel really makes the Operative even more of a self-righteous hypocrite.

Gotta give props for hitting exactly the psychological weak points that would get to Book though.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 4:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Yeah, but see, that ain't subtle.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:06 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Who, of us fans, would take a ride on Serenity with Mal? This is not hypothetical. Be truthful with yourself. Riding with Mal is like riding a class EF5 tornado into heaven. All of us would get off that boat at the first stop when we find out who the Captain really is. And sure as hell none of can be Mal. We could never make the decisions that Mal makes because we would not be there with him in those awful situations.



I hate playin' hypotheticals. They're pretty much useless. Too many variables...

But yeah... Mal is my kinda crazy. You'd have to know me better than what I say here- and I doubt anyone ever will- but Mal is the reason I came here and the reason I'm still here I think... All I need is a reason and trust from a person and I'd join 'em in hell
I just wish he WAS a person, actual and whole.....

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Pilot who kills Book and wants to stay alive long enough to signal Alliance where Mal is and get picked up by his cronies - you are dead.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:25 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Good question. That shooting always bothered me even in the context of all the other casual violence in the FF verse. No matter how you slice it, Mal murdered the guy in cold blood. In a "declared" war it would be considered a war crime. In the nebulous criminal/rebel situation Mal found himself in, it was still nonetheless a despicable and cowardly act of cold-blooded murder of a surrendering soldier.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Jong, we must respectively agree to disagree here. Authoritarian judgements have no place where Authority fails to act within the confines of legality & moral legitimacy. The Operatives' strike on Haven was illegal AND immoral, hence any action(s) pursuant to said action involving force cannot be 'objectively' judged without prejudice, therefore, they cannot be judged at all IMO.
Law of the jungle, baby.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:01 PM

WISHIMAY


Well, that was a lot nicer worded than what I would've said.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:02 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Jong, we must respectively agree to disagree here.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Quote:

Authoritarian judgements have no place where Authority fails to act within the confines of legality & moral legitimacy.

Who judges the authority? Anarchists? Bank robbers? Model makers?

Quote:

The Operatives' strike on Haven was illegal AND immoral,

That's one opinion.

Quote:

Law of the jungle, baby.
Is that what you advocate? Vigilantism? Chaos? Anarchy? Mob rule? What if the mob turns on you and yours? Are you the baddest badass in the jungle? You'll need to be if it ever comes to that.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:44 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Who judges the authority? Anarchists? Bank robbers? Model makers?

If you have to ask then maybe you should do some serious thinking...
Quote:

That's one opinion.
No man, not just mine- that's the opinion of the Operative himself- did you even SEE the film, bro?
Quote:

Is that what you advocate? Vigilantism? Chaos? Anarchy? Mob rule?
What gets set into play must be played upon; I don't make the rules.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:13 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

What gets set into play must be played upon; I don't make the rules.


I see how it is for you. In case we happen to meet somewhere in the Zombie Apocalypse you better come at me heavy then.

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Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:15 PM

CHRISISALL


Silly silly British man.

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Friday, April 4, 2014 6:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
We are not at tavern, drinking ourselves into a coma, so I call bullshit on "I would have done . . ."

Who, of us fans, would take a ride on Serenity with Mal? This is not hypothetical. Be truthful with yourself. Riding with Mal is like riding a class EF5 tornado into heaven. All of us would get off that boat at the first stop when we find out who the Captain really is. And sure as hell none of can be Mal. We could never make the decisions that Mal makes because we would not be there with him in those awful situations.

Mal would have a really hard decision to make if anybody had survived in Haven. Does Mal abandon survivors? Take them with him? Leave Doctor Tam behind to take care of them?


Oh I would, if the alternative was having to live in Alliance turf I'd throw in without a blink even knowing what a personal and professional disaster the guy is, because by my very nature I'd have been one of them "independants" to begin with and not ever let the grudge go myself.
Sometimes in life, all the choices you got are ugly, and so you tend to go with the one that lets you live with yourself - that said, I'd be gettin *paid* for my troubles or I'd be on my merry right quick.

Worth remembering my actual employment is prettymuch front line security for a podunk apartment complex right across the street from the worst cesspool in this county, right smack in that damn polar vortex and at a time when some other complexes got bought out and pitched all their section 8 residents out into the snow just as their unemployment ran out and SNAP benefits were cut - leaving me in the unenviable position of playing goalie against hungry, angry people who's primary 'crime' was poverty, knowing that my actions might condemn some of them to freeze and starve.

Try for a moment to wrap your mind around just how *MUCH* I hate the bastards of this world who set us at each others throats to fight over scraps while they live the high life off our labors, and then tell me I wouldn't get along pretty well with Malcom Reynolds.

As for yon potential survivors, toss whatever supplies we could spare out the door and get the hell GONE before our presence brings more trouble down on em, simple as that.

-F

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Friday, April 4, 2014 8:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Yeah, you sound like one of dem inipenents all right.

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Friday, April 4, 2014 11:12 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Try for a moment to wrap your mind around just how *MUCH* I hate the bastards of this world who set us at each others throats to fight over scraps while they live the high life off our labors, and then tell me I wouldn't get along pretty well with Malcolm Reynolds.

It is fun to pretend we're Mal and judge his actions as if we were him. It builds our ego and vanity. Except he is supernatural and we are not.

Mal is bringing justice to the 'Verse one extralegal killing at a time. He is NOT some kind of volunteer/social worker/armed security guard helping the poor & desperate. He flies down from heaven like an angel of death, gets a drink in a bar, then slays the wicked.

Mal is very satisfying to watch from a distance, through the legend creating process of a TV show. But if he were real, when you know all he can do, Mal is terrifying. Ask Tracey, the old war buddy from "The Message". Mal was once so friendly to Tracey!

Tracey thought Mal's legend as a stone cold killer was just hyperbole. Mal showed Tracey. Tracey could have lived if only Mal had explained Book's plan, but Mal preferred killing, presuming that the world is better without Tracey. That kind of Mal from "The Message" would never let the Alliance surrender on Haven. He would kill them all out of divine justice. (Joss Whedon is an atheist who writes screenplays with ideas ripped from the Bible.)

Mal is a force of nature and TV. We are not. Our opinions, morals, or rules of war are wasted breath to him. We are probably being very amusing to Joss, for he is God, at least on his own shows.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 4, 2014 11:24 AM

CHRISISALL


I'll have what you're having!

Look, if you're gonna be all like that then we can't make clear judgements on ANYTHING fictional at all, or even reality that WE ourselves don't directly experience.

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Friday, April 4, 2014 3:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Not saying he's always hard. Not even saying he doesn't have his admirable qualities or his friendly side. Saying he's a mess. Sometimes with anger issues.

It's like, this kid you know was bright and cheerful and idealistic, and he signs up for the army and gets deployed in Iraq. When he comes back, turns out the family farm got taken by the banks, his parents died, and who even knows where his highschool sweetheart went.

He's got nothing, but somehow he scrapes together the money to buy a home and even gets some roommates and renters moved in who seem like nice people except for that one guy who seems like kind of a thug. He seems like he's doing okay, he can still crack a joke, even though he can also be grumpy and cynical and impatient and he doesn't really take to new people anymore and he's been stockpiling guns for some reason.

Then you find out that he and his roommates have started smuggling drugs from Canada and tequila and canned food from Mexico and sometimes they hold up banks and steal from gated communities and other zany schemes. They get into shoot outs a lot and whenever things go wrong, and it always does, they gets away by the skin of their teeth by him coming up with some randomly improvized plan. Despite all this, they're always poor, and they rarely can afford to eat better than ramen noodles most nights. His girlfriend is a nice lady, pretty classy, who's also a prostitute.

Taken altogether, is this someone who makes you think, wow, they've really got it together, they have control of their life and they know where it's going?

He's a mess. Yeah, he's got reasons he's like that, yeah he's still a likeable guy, but he's a mess.

You put that all into some perspective pretty nicely, 'cept the world today ain't as effed as Mals' Verse, I think. It's still Earth that is.

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Sunday, April 6, 2014 10:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You put that all into some perspective pretty nicely, 'cept the world today ain't as effed as Mals' Verse, I think. It's still Earth that is.


Yeah. And to be fair, I'd like to know Mal and be accepted on his crew and to have been an independent. But objectively speaking, I'd be dead.

Hehe. I don't think second realizes who he's talking to.

omigosh this's gonna be FUN.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:31 PM

LINGARN


Of course he was wrong.

The side that steals, smuggles, murders, etc? Those are the bad guys. We love the Robin Hood tale, and we enjoy seeing authority get its nose tweaked by someone with a good chin and witty dialogue.

Murdering an unarmed soldier who was injured in the course of his duties is wrong. It may feel good -- I for one enjoyed the vengeance, the certainty of strong leadership, etc. It is absolutely understandable, and very pragmatic. But that doesn't make it right.

We love Mal and the crew, and we want them to win. But that doesn't make them the good guys, even if sometimes they do good things.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:21 PM

BYTEMITE


An unarmed soldier injured in the act of massacring civilians under an UNLAWFUL order. His "DUTY" was to refuse to kill civilians that he'd took an oath to protect.

Screw that guy, that's no good soldier. Nuremberg established just following orders isn't a valid defense. He gets no sympathy points, not any more than a Nazi should for killing their own people in a gas chamber.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:08 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Hehe. I don't think second realizes who he's talking to.

omigosh this's gonna be FUN.





Second hasn't been in RWED as much, no...

BUT if there was a site that would allow points and wagering on a philosophical debates, my moneys on you Byte

Transmission error. Fixed now...

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

He hasn't been in RWED as much, no...

If there was a site that would allow points and wagering on a philosophical debates, my moneys on you Byte



Uh, I was talking about Frem.

I don't always talk about me, you know. I know it seems like it, I know you all think I think everything's about me. But sometimes I'm making a metaphor or an analogy.

I wouldn't have shot the Alliance soldier myself.

But I'd have punched him.

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Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Nuremberg established just following orders isn't a valid defense.

I am forced to agree with my esteemed colleague here.

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Friday, April 11, 2014 12:26 PM

FONGLUH


I'd have to say that Mal was carryin' a bullet for that guy for a long time before it found him. Guess he didn't know the trick about dying of old age first ;)

In all seriousness though, he was on an alliance ship that kill a preacher and civilians, including kids. He had it comin'.

BWAH!

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Friday, April 11, 2014 2:14 PM

CHRISISALL


I have to say, when Mal kicked Crow off his ship & into the engine, just after he had a look of borderline disgust on his face, as if he surely hated doing that; when he shot the surrendering dude, there was no such look. He was sweeping away a speck of dirt. That was Mal almost consumed by the dark side.

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Tuesday, May 20, 2014 3:40 AM

OONJERAH



The Surrendering Soldier.
(It's not his fault; I can justify all that he did.)

Probably I'm less honorable than Mal.
Take him prisoner, but as a war criminal, he can expect no mercy.
Maybe Simon's got a truth drug handy. Maybe not. Get all the informa-
tion he has about this Alliance expedition. If he cooperates, execute
him mercifully, in spite of he's just shown himself a traitor.

It was a clear No Win for him. War is Hell.



... oooOO}{OOooo ...

The Shadow Knows ~Lamont Cranston

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Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:47 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Yes it was wrong. However you want to slice it Mal murdered the guy, he also murdered Crow.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, May 26, 2014 12:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Depends on whether you view individual moral judgement and vigilantism as valid ethical conduct, which I suspect you don't, and thus you probably believe that justice can really only be administered by a trial provided by a recognized government with legal jurisdiction.

Even if said government in this case would be corrupt as hell and almost certainly rule in favour of the civilian killing dickhead and against the misrepresented criminal cyber terrorists.

Crow was murder, though justifiable, the guy threatened them after trying to kill them. This after Mal offered the guy a way out without fighting.

Quote:

Many countries agree that it is lawful for a citizen to repel violence with violence to protect his or her own or another's life and limb, or to prevent sexual assault. However, there is less agreement on the extent to which it is justifiable to kill the attacker, as opposed to disarm or disable. The degree of response to the degree of threat may be tested. If the level of force used in defense matches the force threatened and the "winner" of the conflict first retreated or showed a clear intention not to fight (assuming this was possible in the time available), the killer may be exculpated.


The soldier... Is a bit more grey from my point of view. But I don't think Mal was wrong. Not practically and not ethically.

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