REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Brexit is official: Article 50 is invoked.

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, December 15, 2019 16:25
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Wednesday, March 29, 2017 10:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


It was being discussed here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60745&p=2 but in kind of stealth mode.

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Thursday, March 30, 2017 10:53 AM

DREAMTROVE


Thanks Thggri, for the threadjack on Mal's necroposted thread.

I'll guess I'll repost here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:

Merkel's history in October. The EU will fall like dominoes in the next few years.


Sounds like it's time to anschluss somebody.



they tried that before, it didn't work out well. They lack the naval power.

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Thursday, March 30, 2017 12:04 PM

THGRRI


Let me get this straight. On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:48 AM I revive Mal4prezs' link ( necroposted, past thread ). I post about Brexit. A discussion on the subject ensues. The next day SIG starts a new link titled " Brexit is official: Article 50 is invoked. " She posts nothing more than a link back to Mal4prez's thread. So, your logic suggests to you that you should post about Brexit here.

well, OK

---------------------

SIG says I'm a deep state troll. oh my.


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Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:41 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Let me get this straight. On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:48 AM I revive Mal4prezs' link ( necroposted, past thread ). I post about Brexit. A discussion on the subject ensues. The next day SIG starts a new link titled " Brexit is official: Article 50 is invoked. " She posts nothing more than a link back to Mal4prez's thread. So, your logic suggests to you that you should post about Brexit here.

well, OK



Si Shen,

Yeah, that's how it works. New topic, new thread. Interesting story you posted, and Sig should've reposted, and credited you for it, but it was on a threadjack, which I see i posted on, but didn't notice it was jacked or necroposted, usually i avoid such threads are a mess, like the "i bump my threads thread" (yes sister, i mean you) but it's all good. I don't see anyone did anything wrong here. You posted a new topic, but not to a new thread so someone else used it to start a new thread. sounds legit, notice i did credit you here.

G,

Maybe, but Putin is having exit woes of his own. Chech-nyexit might give Russneft some issues. Also, Belexit and Ukrexit, though Ukrain't ended in his favor with Crimea River

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Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:09 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Thanks Thggri, for the threadjack on Mal's necroposted thread.

I'll guess I'll repost here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:

Merkel's history in October. The EU will fall like dominoes in the next few years.


Sounds like it's time to anschluss somebody.



they tried that before, it didn't work out well. They lack the naval power.


Well maybe this time Matthew McConaughey won't steal an Enigma Machine from U-571, and that gay guy in England won't be able to break the code.

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Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:42 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.




-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:43 PM

SOCKPUPPET


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:

Well maybe this time Matthew McConaughey won't steal an Enigma Machine from U-571, and that gay guy in England won't be able to break the code.


Nah, Bonjovi isn't going to be able to save them. They need a hot blonde and a moonbase.


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Friday, June 7, 2019 7:33 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


May officially steps down as Tory leader

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48550452


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Friday, June 7, 2019 1:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINALLY!

Have they decided on a new leader then? Is it BoJo (Boris Johnson) or Dominic Raab?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:19 PM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

Let me get this straight. On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:48 AM I revive Mal4prezs' link ( necroposted, past thread ). I post about Brexit. A discussion on the subject ensues. The next day SIG starts a new link titled " Brexit is official: Article 50 is invoked. " She posts nothing more than a link back to Mal4prez's thread. So, your logic suggests to you that you should post about Brexit here.

well, OK

---------------------

SIG says I'm a deep state troll. oh my.




T






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Monday, September 16, 2019 12:58 PM

THG


T

Luxembourg’s prime minister, Xavier Bettel, spoke to the press alone after Boris Johnson did not appear at a planned press conference.


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Friday, September 20, 2019 6:56 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Britain’s leaders did not understand the value of EU rules, and still don’t
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-s-leaders-did-not-understan
d-the-value-of-eu-rules-and-still-don-t-3vdjkz90t


The Brexiteer with diabetes says he would rather leave the EU than have insulin
http://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-diabetes-insulin-no-deal-medicin
e-shortages-bbc-news-video-9112031?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1568909775


Thirty days after the self set deadline Johnson rejects Macron's two-week extension as “artificial deadline”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/19/brexit-eu-must-take-r
isks-with-irish-border-says-barclay

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Sunday, October 6, 2019 2:31 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


John Bercow proposed as prime minister of national unity government
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercow-proposed-as-prime-
minister-of-national-unity-government-k3gtj29fw


‘You are not laughing now, are you?’ Nigel Farage at European Parliament (FULL SPEECH

https://www.bitchute.com/video/srzAwTPZiuTr/

Ministers expect Boris Johnson to lose Queen's Speech vote
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/05/ministers-expect-boris
-johnson-lose-queens-speech-vote
/


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Monday, October 7, 2019 7:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Thanks for keeping the news updated.

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Thursday, October 17, 2019 7:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

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Thursday, October 17, 2019 9:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But Juncker appeared to rule out any new postponement, leaving British lawmakers with a simple choice: deal, no deal or revoke Brexit."

That's always been my point of wonderment ... Britain doesn't get to decide when it gets booted out of the EU, the EU decides. Afaik, everything else going on the the British Parliament is noise.

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Friday, October 18, 2019 4:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
"But Juncker appeared to rule out any new postponement, leaving British lawmakers with a simple choice: deal, no deal or revoke Brexit."

That's always been my point of wonderment ... Britain doesn't get to decide when it gets booted out of the EU, the EU decides. Afaik, everything else going on the the British Parliament is noise.

Maybe nobody in Yurp reads the fine print.

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Saturday, October 26, 2019 12:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Been following the Brexit saga mostly thru The Duran since one of them is a transplanted Greek living in Britain.

It's clear that The British Political Establishment (the former PM Theresa May, the British Supreme Court, Tony Bercow Speaker of the House of Parliament, and many of the MPs) have been fighting Brexit tooth and nail, often surreptitiously since their electorate often wanted something different. This was an especially acute problem for the Conservaive Party, whose electorate is most definitely pro-Brexit.

According to the Duran, there is a split in the EU Council which decides whether to grant an extnesion or not. Merkel doesn't want Brexit at all and is more than happy to extend the decision indefinitely (Britain is a makor market for German cars abd Germany has entered into a recession) while Macron (supposedly the big EU integrationist) has been angling to kick Britain out. They suggest that Macron and Johnson have a deal - that the Council will grant an extension but only if Labor agrees to a general election (which would solidify Johnson's Conservative Party's hold on power.)

Assuming that all of this is true, all of the "political" reasons for Macron to that that position ... that Britain has been a thorn in the EU's shoe ever since accession, that Macron and Merkel are having a snit-fit with each other etc doesn't make any sense given the gravity of Britain leaving the EU.

I think these politicians are all order takers, not order makers. The British political establishment is probably beholden to The City of London (That portion of London which contains all of the British bank HQs and which makes its own laws; British banking is a huge money-laundering operation thru its overseas territories such as the Caymans and jersey https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/economics-and-finance/london-the-mo
ney-laundering-capital-of-the-world
) and the City of Londion surely doesn't want to lose access to EU banks.

But Macron himself is a banker (Rothschild) and aren't all bankers integrationists?

What interest might Macron have in booting Britain out?

If I had to take a guess I think that Macron wants to see a stronger Euro currency because that's what his bank wants to switch to (or is already in). But one big German bank (Deutsche Bank) is on the verge of imploding thanks to its heavy involvement is derivatives (all priced in dollars BTW) and many of the British banks are equally involved in speculation, and so he's looking for a financially sound partner to cling to which would be ... Russia. That might explain his bizarre speech attempting to woo Russia back into Europe, and his recent veto on adding North Macedonia and Albania to the EU.

But what does this have to do with Britain?

British deep state is staunchly anti-Russian even more so than the USA, if that can be believed. Also, Britain has its own currency and follows it's own financialist path. I think for these reasons, Macron sees British banks as a major stumbling block to his desire for a stronger Euro currency. Also, constantly adding economically strapped states to the EU doesn't help. So I believe it all revolves around the position of the Euro in international finance, and that you can explain/predict what Macron will do on whether it will help or hurt the Euro.

As background, I recall that several years ago Putin was speculating on replacing the dollar with the Euro as their trade currency. Having been stiffed by USA-pushed sanctions and thrown into the arms of China, and also watching the EU unravel, Putin has probably tossed those plans in the trash. I don't think that Macron and the Rothschild bank is going to be able to "invest in" (lend money to) Russia but Russia probably would be open to trading bilaterally in the Euro, so better relations wth Russia might not get much joy for the banks or Macron, but it MAY help trade.

I think these are all adjustments ... like little earthquakes around a major fault line ... and the fault line is de-dollarization.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

You idiots have been oppressing the entire sexual spectrum as long as you have existed. I can't wait for the day your kind is dead - WISHIMAY

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Saturday, October 26, 2019 2:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
"But Juncker appeared to rule out any new postponement, leaving British lawmakers with a simple choice: deal, no deal or revoke Brexit."

That's always been my point of wonderment ... Britain doesn't get to decide when it gets booted out of the EU, the EU decides. Afaik, everything else going on the the British Parliament is noise.

Maybe nobody in Yurp reads the fine print.



Nobody anywhere reads the fine print.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, November 16, 2019 8:45 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Australia asks for Brexit trade compensation

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50419130

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Monday, November 18, 2019 8:24 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Free interwebs for everyone? 'Nationalising Broadband is a Distraction From Brexit'
https://www.bitchute.com/video/ZvjfXM4Db1I/
snooty and smug online personality former Ukip candidate Carl Benjamin

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Friday, December 13, 2019 9:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Labour has been waging a culture war against its own base for decades, fixating on liberalism instead - George Galloway

Not since the election of 1935 has the Parliamentary Labour Party been so small. When political dinosaurs roamed the earth a split Labour Party collapsed to the challenge of the Great Depression and seemed bound for extinction.

Ten years later they had their biggest ever election win sweeping Mr Churchill the War Leader from office.

My point is not merely to put in scale what happened in the British general election but also to illustrate the famous truth that there is no "final victory," and no "final defeat" either. It's never over.

I consistently predicted, on RT and everywhere, that Labour seats would go down like dominoes, that Labour would lose dozens - maybe scores - of seats throughout the Midlands, the north-west and north-east of England, and in Wales. All my expectations came to pass as counting continued into a real-life Friday the 13th for Labour.

It was Brexit of course – only the foolhardy deny their own electorate on such a matter, and so brazenly and for so long – but not only Brexit. In former premier Harold MacMillan's words "it's never one damned thing, it's one damned thing after another."

Labour's defiance of its own supporters behind its 'red-wall' – seats in some cases it had held for a hundred years, seemed to put the tin-hat on things for the British industrial and post industrial heartlands. For American readers, imagine Michigan, Connecticut and Pennsylvania.

And that's after many years of amused bemused tolerance of an increasingly metropolitan liberal Labour Party – which regularly parachuted in such liberals in Labour livery into what were until now safe Labour seats. So, for example, that well known coal-miner Tony Blair dropped in for a while as the MP for the mining town of Sedgefield with his fancy London Barrister ways…

Because these kinds of faces of Labour had no connection to industry itself – they probably thought Swarfega was a Balearic island – they saw their task as not to rage against the dying of the mining and manufacturing light, but to persuade their people to go quietly into that good night. Close the pit, open a heritage park, shut the factory, put up a shopping mall in its stead. Where once were 40-hour blue collar union jobs with decent pay the gig-economy would have to suffice. It's "flexible," don't you know…

Labour's descent into the snake-pit of identity politics began a long time ago. I should know, I was there. Under the influence of the 'Euro-Communists', an ideological breakaway from Moscow in the 1980s, it was imagined that the working class – and thus its class interests – had withered away, and that new "communities" (many of them imagined) would have to be the building blocks for Labour political power.

It's rather as if someone persuaded you that there was something called a "football community" which could be dealt with collectively.
But members of the football community – people like myself who are football crazy – have nothing in common with each other. In fact as fans of rival teams, we oftentimes hate each other. Political "offers" to such an imagined community can therefore often exacerbate divisions as well as angering those who think football is 22 fools running around chasing a pig's bladder.

Transpose this, thus: If you are a white, heterosexual, married man or woman with kids, seeing your supposed party endlessly fixating about race, gender, sexual politics and the wonders of liberalism, the EU and all that jazz-hands might well begin to make you feel, well, left out.

If you are a lady of a certain age, you might feel a bit left out at your party worshiping at the altar of youth, a 'Youthquake' may for you be a distant memory. When your party picks as its plum-policy free, nationalised broadband, you may momentarily wonder what they are talking about.

If you live beyond the 'red wall' you may just wonder why almost ALL of the top leaders of a party depending on Northern voters had virtually adjoining constituencies in North London.

London left-wing politics should be imagined as a hot-house where only the most exotic political flowers bloom. Nice for a visit but with not much in common with the colder climate to which you are returning home.

I have long proselytized for the view, confirmed amply in the election, that for decades Labour has been conducting a kind of culture war against its own voting base. Instead of country and patriotism the party worshipped the supra-nationalism of the EU. More comfortable with the flag of Bolivia or Venezuela than with their own country's flag. More interested in the human rights of the criminal than with their victims. Endlessly looking for small minority blocs to patronize, careless that over-identification with one bloc may come at the price of alienation from another, much larger.

Boris Johnson just went through Labour's 'red wall' like a knife through butter. It will be neither quick nor easy to rebuild. There was no Youthquake – only a Brexitquake. Damage is clearly extensive and considerable. There is no word yet of the number of casualties but there will clearly be many. The Labour Party itself is merely the first of them.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Friday, December 13, 2019 10:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Credit where credit is due: Nigel Farage helped craft the Conservative win.

I have to say that Farage is an extremely intelligent and focused person who keeps his eyes on the prize (Brexit) and not on his party. The decision to pull candidates from so many Conservative-dominated districts must have been a very difficult one and earned him a lot of criticism from within his own party, but was ultimately the best course of action in terms of aiming towards Brexit.


Quote:

The Brexit party folded, but make no mistake: Farage won it for Johnson
Darren Loucaides

Whatever Nigel Farage does next, his decision to stand aside against 317 Tories and target Labour leavers was monumental

Last modified on Fri 13 Dec 2019 10.10 EST

Until 11 November, many had assumed that Nigel Farage’s Brexit party was revving up for a general election. But that morning, Farage told an audience of supporters and journalists in Hartlepool that his Brexit party would be standing down in 317 Conservative-held seats to avoid splitting the leave vote. The audience was stunned; there was muted applause after he finished.

This election will be remembered as a resounding, crushing victory for Boris Johnson’s Conservatives. Just as has happened countless times before, Farage will be written off and ridiculed for his party not winning a single seat. But that morning of 11 November was the single most important moment of the campaign. Farage won it for Johnson.

The decision to stand down against the Tories was not an easy one. According to Ed Jankowski, who was the Brexit party’s digital strategist until the middle of November before resigning, Farage was for a long time eager to stand in every seat and not stand down – as he was being pressured to do by his erstwhile Leave.EU ally Arron Banks. Farage instead kept pushing a leave alliance that the Tories were never likely to officially agree to. But as the Brexit party started to flag in the polls, Farage lost his nerve and gave in to those not wanting to challenge Conservative seats.

In Farage’s speech, and in the weeks following, he pledged to scoop up the leave vote in Labour heartlands and places people were unlikely to ever vote Tory. As for Jankowski, he told me that he pushed hard to get a detailed data set of Labour leavers. If he had stayed on, Jankowski says he would have pushed for the Brexit party to hone its digital content so that it made a strong emotional appeal to those voters.

Instead of the sophisticated digital campaign Jankowski envisaged, the wheels seemed to come off the Brexit party campaign. Farage’s close ally Alexandra Phillips, who used to be his head of media at Ukip, publicly criticised the decision to stand down, saying she felt “disenfranchised” for not being able to vote Brexit party in her own Conservative-held constituency. Farage and the party chairman, Richard Tice, are also rumoured to have fallen out over strategy, with Farage no longer showing up in the seat Tice stood in Hartlepool.

Farage spent the rest of the campaign travelling predominantly to Labour leave seats, albeit to greatly diminished crowds compared to the big rallies seen earlier in the year. But while the shine had gone from the Brexit party, and it ended up winning no seats, its campaign has had a major impact on the election.

One of the early results of the election night, a Labour hold in Sunderland Central by 2,964 votes, was striking for the swing. Labour was down 13.4%, Conservatives up slightly by 2%, while the Brexit party had a swing of 11.6% from a standing start. When the first 10 seats were in, in mostly northern and Midlands seats, there was nearly a 10% drop for Labour, while the Conservatives were only up 2.1% and the Brexit party was scooping up a 6% swing.

In some places the Conservatives gained seats from Labour on modest swings, while the Brexit party got swings of more than 10%. In Don Valley, Caroline Flint’s 2017 majority of 5,169 appears to have been swallowed up by the Brexit party – which won 6,247 votes as the Tories took the seat. A similar dynamic appears to have taken place in Tony Blair’s former seat of Sedgefield.

Farage, whatever you think of him, was right.
Many Labour leavers, who couldn’t bring themselves to vote Tory, did vote for the Brexit party. This wasn’t the case everywhere. In the much-watched seat of Workington, the Brexit party won little more than 1,749 votes to the Conservatives’ 20,488.

It’s not clear what happens to the Brexit party now, with a Conservative majority set to secure an exit from the EU. Farage has already registered the name of the Reform party. As this general election campaign wore on, Farage increasingly focused on radical reform – more direct democracy, scrapping of the House of Lords, a reformed electoral system. When I spoke to the Brexit party’s Claire Fox in October, she saw Brexit as the gateway to a kind of bloodless revolution for British democratic institutions. Fox is part of a core of former Revolutionary Communist party figures who have flocked to the Brexit party and remained loyal to Farage, who ended up convening around Spiked, the rightwing media outlet.

With Brexit a done deal, Farage himself is rumoured to be heading for the US to cash in via the lucrative speaker circuit. Farage basically admitted to Andrew Neil on election night that he would be giving stump speeches for Trump on the campaign trail for the US presidential election 2020.

Wherever he ends up, and whatever happens to the Brexit party now, this election is the culmination of a long campaign to redraw the map of British politics, starting with Farage forcing David Cameron’s hand in calling an EU referendum in the first place. Without Farage’s decision to stand down against 317 Conservatives, the election would have been very different. Without going hard after Labour leavers, the Conservatives would not have a thumping majority. Although his party hasn’t won a seat, and even if his campaign itself faltered, the untold story of this election is how Farage once again shaped events. He remains the bête noire of British politics.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/brexit-party-nig
el-farage-boris-johnson-labour-leavers




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Friday, December 13, 2019 10:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Also, both this and the Hong Kong election show the problem of a "first past the post" system. Imagine that there is a nation with an electorate evenly divided 49.9% to 50.1% in every district. It would be possible for the majority party to win 100% of the seats even tho they represent only 50.1% of the people.

Germany gets around this (in the Bundestag) with a proportional system: each district is assigned a number of representatives (population-based) and everyone gets to vote for a candidate and ALSO for a party. Representatives are assigned to the Bundestag based on their percentage of the overall vote, so that the Green Party (for example) would get approximately 25% of representatives in the Bundestag if they get about 25% of the popular vote. It seems to me that this would work for the House, which (technically) represents the voters, as opposed to the Senate which (technically) represents the states. (BTW, the German legislature also has an "upper house" called the Bundesrat, which is an even more complictated representation).

HOWEVER, I would still like to think about DIRECT DEMOCRACY, for example, decision by referenda (such as the Brexit referendum, which the primarily pro-EU MPs did their best to subvert, no matter what their electorate said).

What about a referendum for the budget? Wouldn't it be empowering to be able to decide how much money should go to the military and the security agencies versus how much money should go to other discretionary activities?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 12:03 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'm still mulling over how that all went down - not just splitting the vote but splitting it with malice aforethought*, as a former co-worker used to say. And I'm trying to imagine how such a tactic might be used by a third party here.

But Farage - brilliant! Well done!

* Maybe not malice, but certainly an intentional tactic to achieve a desired goal. I know a lot of criticism has been lobbed at third party candidates in the US who accidentally 'cost' someone an election - Nader and Perot being the spoilers I can think of, but the TDSers sometimes claim the Green Party (or whoever) 'cost' Clinton the election as well.

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 1:20 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


When it comes to referenda -

We in the US have an issue, and I think it comes down to us not having a parliamentary/Prime Minister system. In that system the representatives (ie Parliament) and the executive (ie the PM) are fused into one functioning unit. And generally each party is strongly associated with a particular platform. For example pro- or anti-Brexit. So when there's a referendum, one would assume that the party that's for that referendum would be voted in, and would then carry it out in the Parliament/PM system. So to some extent the referendum has a good chance of being synced up with the Parliament/executive functions.

Here, there'd be the referendum, the parties, the executive branch and the legislative branch. What would happen if the vote was split between parties (Congress/Executive, or one house of Congress/Executive) and the referendum? Or Congress+Executive v referendum? Who would be tasked with carrying it out? Especially if the party most strongly associated as anti-the-referendum has significant blocking power between the Legislative/Executive branches?

I think we'd need a major restructuring, or some rule that holds all parties to executing a referendum even if it's against their party principles/platform especially when they hold significant power to stop it.


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Saturday, December 14, 2019 7:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
When it comes to referenda -

We in the US have an issue, and I think it comes down to us not having a parliamentary/Prime Minister system. In that system the representatives (ie Parliament) and the executive (ie the PM) are fused into one functioning unit. And generally each party is strongly associated with a particular platform. For example pro- or anti-Brexit. So when there's a referendum, one would assume that the party that's for that referendum would be voted in, and would then carry it out in the Parliament/PM system. So to some extent the referendum has a good chance of being synced up with the Parliament/executive functions.

Here, there'd be the referendum, the parties, the executive branch and the legislative branch. What would happen if the vote was split between parties (Congress/Executive, or one house of Congress/Executive) and the referendum? Or Congress+Executive v referendum? Who would be tasked with carrying it out? Especially if the party most strongly associated as anti-the-referendum has significant blocking power between the Legislative/Executive branches?

I think we'd need a major restructuring, or some rule that holds all parties to executing a referendum even if it's against their party principles/platform especially when they hold significant power to stop it.


Interesting point. But Brexit is an example of a Parliamentarian system that ignored it's referendum (Theresa May, bolloxing the negotiations with the EU for three years; MPs ignoring their constituencies) while CA is a USA-style legislative system that routinely implements the results of referenda. Come to think of it, I'm not sure how the CA system works, other than the state Legislature drafts a law based on the results of the referenda. Maybe the politicians are so afraid of the voters that they don't stray too far from the referenda? I'll have to look that up!

I know that CA is pointed to as a system that has gone referenda-crazy, with the many referenda on the ballot each year leading to poorly thought-out legislation. But I think this is just democracy at work, which could be improved on if the media did a better job of informing the public of the anticipated benefits and downsides, and the actual successes and failures of referenda.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:24 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Is Boris Johnson a Brilliant Political Strategist?

Maybe so. But Johnson did this by giving the hard right exactly what it wanted: Brexit, and no shilly-shallying about it. As for anti-immigration fever calming, few people ever seem to take a good look at the timing of all this. The Brexit referendum, unfortunately, was held very shortly after the peak of the European refugee crisis, when panic about it was still fresh:

The graph is here and will give you great insight:
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/12/is-boris-johnson-a-brilliant-po
litical-strategist
/

It’s pretty easy to calm anti-immigrant fever if you simply wait a few years for the fever to break naturally. And it’s pretty easy to defang a political movement if you basically surrender to all their demands, no? If you want to argue that this was the only way to get things done, and Johnson was the only one to see it, fine. But there’s not a lot of political brilliance here.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 1:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Interesting point. But Brexit is an example of a Parliamentarian system that ignored it's referendum (Theresa May, bolloxing the negotiations with the EU for three years; MPs ignoring their constituencies) while CA is a USA-style legislative system that routinely implements the results of referenda. Come to think of it, I'm not sure how the CA system works, other than the state Legislature drafts a law based on the results of the referenda. Maybe the politicians are so afraid of the voters that they don't stray too far from the referenda? I'll have to look that up!

I know that CA is pointed to as a system that has gone referenda-crazy, with the many referenda on the ballot each year leading to poorly thought-out legislation. But I think this is just democracy at work, which could be improved on if the media did a better job of informing the public of the anticipated benefits and downsides, and the actual successes and failures of referenda.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

I thought Canada has a parliamentary system ... ? Both Britain and Canada have regularly scheduled elections but there are other ways to invoke elections for cause (or for political reasons, like dissolving Parliament and calling for early elections when you're in a popularity 'up' cycle.)

As for poorly written legislation - maybe the best test-case for referenda is the California system, where I see that the problem is big-money interests who have a lot to say ... over and over ... about ballot propositions and can drive votes.

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 1:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Meanwhile ...

looks like Britain is having its own derangement syndrome brewing ...


"F**k Boris" - Antifa Protesters Clash With Police Outside Downing Street As Furious Leftists Revolt

Left-Wing Newspaper Advises People "How To Leave The United Kingdom" After Election Loss

'Not My Prime Minister' - Radical Left Marches Against Democracy In Britain

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Is Boris Johnson a Brilliant Political Strategist?

Maybe so. But Johnson did this by giving the hard right exactly what it wanted: Brexit, and no shilly-shallying about it. As for anti-immigration fever calming, few people ever seem to take a good look at the timing of all this. The Brexit referendum, unfortunately, was held very shortly after the peak of the European refugee crisis, when panic about it was still fresh:

The graph is here and will give you great insight:
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/12/is-boris-johnson-a-brilliant-po
litical-strategist
/

It’s pretty easy to calm anti-immigrant fever if you simply wait a few years for the fever to break naturally. And it’s pretty easy to defang a political movement if you basically surrender to all their demands, no? If you want to argue that this was the only way to get things done, and Johnson was the only one to see it, fine. But there’s not a lot of political brilliance here.



Jeezus, the stupid articles SECOND brings to the board!!

SECOND ... the FIRST referendum may have been just after the height of the European migrant crisis, but THIS vote was clearly a SECOND vote on Brexit, and (even tho according to your stupid article) was post-crisis, the results were even more pro-Brexit than before. If you explain the first vote with the migrant crisis, how do you explain the second?

And as a point of accuracy, the chart represent migrants to ITALY, SPAIN, AND GREECE BY SEA. But THAT is not the source of England's migrants, who typically come from either the Comonwealth nations or from the poorer eastern European nations in the EU, and in a different timespan!

The author of this article is brain dead and more interested in making a propaganda point than in describing reality.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Maybe SECOND is having some derangement syndrome by proxy on behalf of the British anti-democracy crowd. Yanno, the people for whom a democratic vote simply isn't good enough.

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Maybe SECOND is having some derangement syndrome by proxy on behalf of the British anti-democracy crowd. Yanno, the people for whom a democratic vote simply isn't good enough.

It's just SECOND, doing its best to spread disinformation wherever it goes.

KIKI, when I posted about "CA" I meant California, not Canada.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



But SECOND's posts are all about the same thing - how the result of a democratic vote / is bad / should be ignored / should be overturned / ... If SECOND would post RANDOM incognito crap all over the board, that would be different. But this isn't -just- disinformation. It's always about the same thing. And always with the same agenda. It's outright propaganda.


About the CA - MY BAD!

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
looks like Britain is having its own derangement syndrome brewing ...

Left-Wing Newspaper Advises People "How To Leave The United Kingdom" After Election Loss



My advise to anybody who wants to leave is to go to the Middle East. I'm sure they'll be welcome with open arms, and there is zero shortage of causes they could be a part of over there, so they can actually get up off of their lazy asses and do something instead of virtue signalling all day on Twitter.

Maybe they could dress up like Batman and have a superhero in every city that is just waiting to hear screams from a woman so they can bust down the door and stop an honor killing. Or if wearing tights isn't their thing, they could set up camp outside any buildings 2 stories or higher with a trampoline and catch gay people as they're thrown off of the rooftops.



It's funny watching them bitch and whine there like we've had to put up with here for the last three years. Ain't nobody moving. They're all full of shit over there now like everybody was full of shit over here.

I hope Boris realizes what he's gotten himself into though. I think Trump thrives off of trolling trolls. Unlike most presidents before him, he doesn't look a day older today than he did three years ago when he was elected. That's saying a lot considering there has been a 24/7 smear campaign against him since before he even took office.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Maybe SECOND is having some derangement syndrome by proxy on behalf of the British anti-democracy crowd. Yanno, the people for whom a democratic vote simply isn't good enough.

It's just SECOND, doing its best to spread disinformation wherever it goes.



Yup.

Second is going to pretend that there is still not an immigration crisis in Europe or the UK. Denial of facts is the only way that he can maintain his opinion.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 2:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Boris is apparently quite adept at trolling.

Plus, he has a YUGE majority behind him. But he has one mandate: GET BREXIT DONE.

Brits are tired to being dicked around by their own former PM (Theresa May), their own memebers of Parliament (especially Speaker Bercow, who broke just about every rule in the book to block Brexit), and their own Supreme Court, which took upon itself the power to decide policy and interfere with government wheneverit saw fit (Britain doesn't have a written Constitution so the rules and duties used to be limited by tradition, until the Supreme Court did away with that). The betrayal of the British refernedum was unprecedented, and involved all levels of (pro EU) government

If Boris fails to GET BREXIT DONE in a way that satifies Brits, he too will be out on his ass.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 3:51 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

And as a point of accuracy, the chart represent migrants to ITALY, SPAIN, AND GREECE BY SEA. But THAT is not the source of England's migrants, who typically come from either the Comonwealth nations or from the poorer eastern European nations in the EU, and in a different timespan!

The author of this article is brain dead and more interested in making a propaganda point than in describing reality.

When will Boris Johnson deport those Eastern Europeans? What is he waiting for? He is Prime Minister right this second. He should do it now. He should not wait until after Christmas 2019 to get started loading the trains with foreigners being deported, if getting those Eastern Europeans out of Britain is important. GET BREXIT DONE. Send the Polish plumbers home for Christmas.

While Boris is at it, he should make the NHS all and only British employees.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7
783


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


more incognito crap

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:56 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Why are you against Brexit, Second?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 5:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why are you against Brexit, Second?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

GET IT DONE, Boris. Hard Brexit. Soft Brexit. Shut up and do it. Then gather economic data to prove whether it was a good/bad idea. But Boris didn't want to know the numbers before Brexit. After Brexit, he probably won't collect data to finally know in his attempts to make sure nobody will ever be able to prove anything about Brexit. His government is already talking about “something that cannot be measured solely through spreadsheets or impact assessments, important though they are.” Boris does not want real numbers on those spreadsheets.
https://qz.com/1733190/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 6:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Before and after - VERY hard moving targets to try and measure as better or worse.

Because you never know what would have been otherwise. You can SPECULATE and FANTASIZE (as you often do) what might have been to compared to what is now - but you'll never know.

And then - what's your timeline for measuring the outcome? A week? I'm sure the US was in pretty shit shape a week after the Revolutionary War. Lost lives. Lost property. Bankrupt country. People could easily have looked around and said to themselves - this was a really bad idea.

Not that I expect you to address any of this. I expect more of your incognito trolling.

tic tac

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 6:56 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Before and after - VERY hard moving targets to try and measure as better or worse.

Because you never know what would have been otherwise. You can SPECULATE and FANTASIZE (as you often do) what might have been to compared to what is now - but you'll never know.

And then - what's your timeline for measuring the outcome? A week? I'm sure the US was in pretty shit shape a week after the Revolutionary War. Lost lives. Lost property. Bankrupt country. People could easily have looked around and said to themselves - this was a really bad idea.

Not that I expect you to address any of this. I expect more of your incognito trolling.

tic tac

The study by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research says the agreement would deliver a 70 billion-pound ($90 billion) blow to the U.K.

Researchers said that the outlook is clouded by political and economic uncertainty, concluding that the economy would be 3.5 % smaller over the next decade compared with staying in the European Union.

The NIESR estimated that the economy was already 2.5 % smaller than it would have been had Britain not voted in 2016 to leave the European Union.

The research suggested a no-deal Brexit would cause an even greater loss to the economy, with a 5.6 % blow to GDP.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/uks-brexit-deal-estimated-co
st-100-billion-66629308


I am certain Boris will make sure that not enough data is collected by his government to ever prove what the real impact of Brexit is. That way Boris can say whatever he wants and no one can prove he is lying.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 7:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yeah - those 'outlooks' - 'clouded with uncertainty' - you must think they're facts; the same way you get your facts from opinion pages.

Along with your personal incognito trolling of BoJo.

I'll just have to take your word for it. /snicker

tic tac

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 7:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


(Newsmax) UK's Brexit Deal Estimated to Cost Almost $100 Billion
(Guardian) Cost of Brexit to UK economy running at £40bn a year – Bank rate-setter
(Forbes) How A Chaotic Brexit Has Been Great For Britain's Economy
(Guardian) UK would lose £130bn in growth if Brexit deal passed, figures suggest
(Reuters) Bank of England scales back estimate for worst-case Brexit GDP hit
(Briefings for Brexit) Recent Estimates of the Economic Impact of Brexit
(Express) Britain to batter EU after Brexit: Brussels ADMITS UK economy will outshine even Germany's
(FT) The real price of Brexit begins to emerge (- £20bn to £180bn GDP)
(NYTimes) All Brexit Deals Worse for Economy Than Staying, U.K. Government Says
(NYTimes) Brexit Once Meant a Weaker British Pound, but Not Anymore
(CNBC) Brexit deal will be a ‘good thing for the UK economy,’ US Treasury Secretary says

Just sayin' - your one-sided incognito propaganda is showing.



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Saturday, December 14, 2019 7:50 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why are you against Brexit, Second?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

GET IT DONE, Boris. Hard Brexit. Soft Brexit. Shut up and do it.



Oh. Kinda like impeachment, huh?


Quote:

Then gather economic data to prove whether it was a good/bad idea. But Boris didn't want to know the numbers before Brexit.


Tough titty and irrelevant. The people already voted in favor of it.

Quote:

After Brexit, he probably won't collect data to finally know in his attempts to make sure nobody will ever be able to prove anything about Brexit. His government is already talking about “something that cannot be measured solely through spreadsheets or impact assessments, important though they are.” Boris does not want real numbers on those spreadsheets.



So you're pretending to know anything about BoJo and attributing all the negative feelings you have about our own President to him.

Gotcha.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 8:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND is against Brexit because he's for immigration, legal or not. I thought that was pretty clear.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

I'd nuke a BILLION PEOPLE if it would save the other 7 billion from living under Putin. Hell, I might go all the way to the last 100 people on Earth to keep this planet from being under fascist rule.- WISHIMAY

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:29 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Gotcha.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

The way you argue about Brexit I am betting that your, Signym's and 1kiki's investments don't do well because you decide based on your feelings, not on the numbers. You are innumerants who squeak by with just enough math to get out of school and then cover your ears and hum when presented with anything more mathematically complex than balancing a checkbook. Too bad Brexit will make the British poorer, but they won't notice because they can't do the math and Boris certainly won't let them know.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


When facts and logic fail ... the inevitable incognito troll comes out.

tic tac

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Saturday, December 14, 2019 9:54 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Meh...

It's all fucking Monopoly money anyhow.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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