REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hillary v Trump Debate #2

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, June 1, 2017 00:03
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Monday, October 10, 2016 8:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


FROM HERE http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60557&p=18#
1017592


Trump didn't crash and burn like he did in the first debate, so that is a victory of sorts. But on substance he almost literally said nothing. Every question was used as an opportunity to attack Hillary in one way or another. She's a liar; she loves rich people; her husband is a sexual predator; she has "tremendous hate in her heart"; she wants to put coal miners out of business; she ought to be in jail; and on and on. I think it's safe to say that no one in presidential debate history has come anywhere close to being as derogatory as Trump was this evening.

No ordinary debate performance was likely to help Trump at this point, so why not shoot the moon? But it didn't work. According to CNN, debate watchers thought Hillary Clinton won the debate, 57-34 percent. CNN's focus group was something like 20-1 in favor of Clinton.

But! Trump did better than expected. He didn't spontaneously combust on stage.- SECOND



I'm watching the replay right now. Yep, he's not said anything of any substance, as usual. He's not said anything new, or on point, or correct politically speaking (not politically correct).

And Hillary was evasive, but at least detailed in her responses to the questions raised.
Evasive in terms of the e-mail issue, but knowledgeable and detailed in most of the other issues (yes, she did vote to close the tax loop hole that Donald took advantage of). Nothing new, more of the same, dredging up old crap and not much else.

Every question was used as an opportunity to attack Hillary in one way or another. She's a liar; she loves rich people; her husband is a sexual predator; she has "tremendous hate in her heart"; she wants to put coal miners out of business; she ought to be in jail; and on and on. I think it's safe to say that no one in presidential debate history has come anywhere close to being as derogatory as Trump was this evening. = SGG




Not true. Hillary did; and she started this. In the first debate, I was astounded by how many personal attacks she launched on Trump.

And most of them were speculative and without merit ... JUST LIKE THE PEOPLE DO ON THIS BOARD. The best example I can think of (first debate) went like this...
We saw his tax return from 1995...
And he had a loss that could (i.e might) mean he wouldn't pay taxes for almost 20 years...
Trump didn't pay taxes for 20 years...
He didn't pay taxes ....
He doesn't support our troops ....
And Trump, probably on advice of his campaign manager, didn't hit back. So now Hillary got a taste of her own medicine, in front of a wide audience. Boo hoo hoo for Hillary. She should realize that if she hits some people, they'll hit back. But her hubris has been built of by decades of her and Bill's misdeeds being covered up. Not feeling sorry for her. = SIGNY


Trump admitting that he really did use that $916 million loss to offset nearly two decades of income taxes.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/second-presidential-debate-electi
on-2016
/
Trump vowed to prosecute his opponent should he be elected president. And don’t forget Trump admitting that he really did use that $916 million loss to offset nearly two decades of income taxes.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/live-blog/second-presidential-debate-electi
on-2016
/

SECOND


SECOND, your link says
Quote:

And don’t forget Trump admitting that he really did use that $916 million loss to offset nearly two decades of income taxes.


Yanno SECOND, I listened to the debate, and that's not what Trump said. Leave it to a liberal to lie. What Trump actually pointed to, as his big offset, is DEPRECIATION.

And, as is so true, he also said that there are MANY LOOPHOLES - not just carried interest - which Hillary and politicians like Hillary will never close, because it will offend their wealthy donors. I've mentioned these MANY LOOPHOLES before, including deductions, depreciations, subsidies, expenses, carried losses etc. so it's not like they should be news to anybody.

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Monday, October 10, 2016 9:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Now, as far as substance is concerned, Trump said two things that were important.

The first is that he disagreed with Pence's stance on Russia and Syria. Trump said that the only forces fighting ISIL were Syria and Russia, and that we should cooperate with Russia and GET ISIL FIRST.

Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war? Trump is not a war candidate, and that is my #1 reason for voting for Trump.

The other very specific answer that Trump gave, which I disagreed with, was his commitment to appointing someone like Scalia to the SCOTUS. Well, fortunately, while there are so many rightwing judges you could throw a stick and hit one, there are very few judges as lunatic as Scalia, so the chances of getting someone just like him are pretty small. Still, whoever Trump chooses I'd probably disagree with. OTOH, that's not why I'd vote for Trump, because my very top priority is avoiding WWIII, which would really be "the war to end all wars".

--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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Monday, October 10, 2016 9:23 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

SECOND, your link says
Quote:

And don’t forget Trump admitting that he really did use that $916 million loss to offset nearly two decades of income taxes.


Yanno SECOND, I listened to the debate, and that's not what Trump said. Leave it to a liberal to lie. What Trump actually pointed to, as his big offset, is DEPRECIATION.

And, as is so true, he also said that there are MANY LOOPHOLES - not just carried interest - which Hillary and politicians like Hillary will never close, because it will offend their wealthy donors. I've mentioned these MANY LOOPHOLES before, including deductions, depreciations, subsidies, expenses, carried losses etc. so it's not like they should be news to anybody.

Trump talks too much. The only words he ought to say to the public are, "Here are my signed and filed tax returns. See my greatness on display."
www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/oct/09/donald-trump/d
onald-trump-has-no-fiduciary-responsibility-his-p
/


Tax guru David Cay Johnston says he thinks he knows what Donald Trump's $916 million operating loss in 1995 was all about.
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/10/heres-theory-2-how-donald-trump
-got-916-million-tax-free-income


The story starts when Trump's casino empire crashed in the early 90s, producing multiple business bankruptcies. And because Trump had personally guaranteed about a billion dollars in loans, it nearly produced a personal bankruptcy too. Here's Johnston's theory of what happened next:

Trump threatened to tie his bankers in legal knots for years unless they forgave the loans that had been largely responsible for his operating losses in the first place. Eventually, he badgered them into agreeing.

But a forgiven loan is income, so this produced a billion dollars in taxable income for Trump that would have offset his $916 million in operating losses. What to do?

In 1995, Congress passed a law that allowed real estate professionals to trade the taxes on forgiven debt for future real-estate tax deductions.

This gave someone at Trump HQ a bright idea: why not use this trade to dump all the tax obligations onto Trump's casino properties? Normally would just be trading one tax obligation for another, so to get around that they advised Trump to take all his casino holdings and put them into a shiny new public company.

Here's the genius part. By trading away the taxes on his forgiven debt, Trump kept his $916 million operating loss. It was the new public company that got saddled with property that owed a lot more in taxes than it normally would.

Thousands of people invested in the company, and lost everything when Trump drove it into the ground. But as CEO, Trump paid himself $82 million along the way.

Isn't that great? Trump got $916 million in tax free income over the next decade. He shoveled a bunch of problem properties into a public company. He paid himself $82 million to run the company. And everyone who bought the stock took a bath.

In the end, there was one big winner: Trump. And three big losers: Trump's bankers, the American taxpayers, and all the investors in Trump's crappy public company

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 10, 2016 10:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Hey, yanno, I used to do our personal income taxes before I decided it was too much pain-in-the-ass. That meant taking capital losses, and paying household-employer Federal and State taxes, and even submitting for energy-saving rebates and doing deductions and all that. And, if we rent out our house (assuming that we move after retirement) that will also mean being able to deduct expenses and depreciation.

There's nothing unusual about that, but the tax code, even for individuals, is a fucking nightmare. And for businesses, it's like trying to trace a really long noodle in a ton of spaghetti noodles. Which works to the advantage of large businesses, who have the lawyers and the lobbyists to pass and take advantage of specially-written laws.

If I were king of the forest, I'd put people and businesses on the same footing, and exempt ANY entity making less than $250,000 from income taxes altogther. And then eliminate all of those loopholes. I'd leave taxes paid to other entities (State and local) and mortgage deductions alone, but after than, it would all be fair game: no depreciation, no business expense, no carried interest, no long-term or short-term capital gains, no nothing. In return, I'd drop the rate significantly, altho I'd still leave it progressive.



--------------
I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that they can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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Monday, October 10, 2016 10:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Hey, yanno . . .

"The Trump Organization cannot be placed into a blind trust, an arrangement used by many politicians to prevent them from knowing their financial interests; the Trump family is already aware of who their overseas partners are and could easily learn about any new ones....Any government wanting to seek future influence with President Trump could do so by arranging for a partnership with the Trump Organization, feeding money directly to the family or simply stashing it away inside the company for their use once Trump is out of the White House."
www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/donald-trump-foreign-business-deals-nation
al-security-498081.html


"I would put it in a blind trust. Well, I don't know if it's a blind trust if Ivanka, Don and Eric run it. But — is that a blind trust? I don't know. But I would probably have my children run it with my executives. And I wouldn't ever be involved, because I wouldn't care about anything but our country."
http://time.com/4182096/republican-debate-charleston-transcript-full-t
ext
/

That's a non-starter: Turning his business interests over to his employees and children is the opposite of maintaining the distance that a blind trust would provide. The question grows even trickier when we consider the sketchy nature of many of Trump's partners abroad.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, October 10, 2016 10:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Or whatever. Now you're reaching for "what ifs" and "maybes", just like you've reached for cartoons and unflattering pictures and outright lies about Trump before. What a joke.



Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

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Monday, October 10, 2016 10:54 AM

THGRRI


Last night Donald Trump told all of Americas' women, you are guilty and responsible for the sins of your husband.

Lets see how that flies.

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:29 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Trump iz like a naughty 7 yir old boy.

He barely apolojized for hiz 2005 comments during the debate. He pre-negated any contrition credibility by stajing a foto-op stunt featuring Bill Clintonz victimz befor the debate - essentially a 'but Billy did it to' claim, then brot them to the debate, then saying 'Billy did it worse' in the debate.

Hiz respons to Anderson'z Q about it wuz mostly an attempt to distract. He tossed in everything he coud about unrelated junk befor they shut him up.

It woud be a good sene in a seazon 1 episode uv Leave It to Beaver (exept for the subject matter), but by seazon 2, The Beav woud hav learned that lesson alredy, so the riterz woudnt expect the audiens to believ it.

The Donald iz 70, not 7.

Wut nobody seemz to be tokking about iz the clear thret he made. "If I get elected, you're going to jail". Az if Hillary'z horribly evil email crime iz the biggest priority uv the United States and the new Prezident needz to take care uv it.

He iz a vindictiv bully.

Its rediculous that he iz the nominee uv any political party. That it's 1 uv the 2 partyz that haz a virtual duopoly here iz an embarrassment to the country, even in this embarrassingly stupid excuse for a sivilization.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by THGRRI:
Last night Donald Trump told all of Americas' women, you are guilty and responsible for the sins of your husband.

Lets see how that flies.



https://medium.com/@PolitiFact/politifacts-annotated-transcript-of-the-second-presidential-debate-b54f45edeb99#.33tjvn2h8

Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:41 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by JO753:
Trump iz like a naughty 7 yir old boy.

He barely apolojized for hiz 2005 comments during the debate.


https://medium.com/@PolitiFact/politifacts-annotated-transcript-of-the-second-presidential-debate-b54f45edeb99#.33tjvn2h8
I’m not proud of it. I apologize to my family. I apologize to the American people.
Certainly I’m not proud of it.
I am absolutely?—?I apologize for those words.





Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:46 AM

THGRRI




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Monday, October 10, 2016 12:09 PM

THGRRI




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Monday, October 10, 2016 1:18 PM

THGRRI


Trump once again stated he was against the Iraq war from the beginning: "If I were president at that time, [Capt. Khan] would be alive today, because unlike her, who voted for the war without knowing what she was doing, I would not have had our people in Iraq." In fact, there is no evidence of Trump publicly opposing the Iraq war until Aug. 2004 -- when the war had been going on for a year and a half.

Trump once again stated that Hillary Clinton and her 2008 campaign started the birther conspiracy against President Obama: "Well, you owe the president an apology, because as you know very well, your campaign, Sidney Blumenthal -- he's another real winner that you have -- and he's the one that got this started." In fact, while Clinton supporters kicked around that conspiracy in 2008, there is no record of her campaign doing that.

Trump stated that Hillary Clinton supports a single-payer health-care plan: "But she wants to go to single payer, which means the government basically rules everything." In fact, that was Bernie Sanders who supports a single-payer plan.

Trump said he didn't tell people to check out a "sex tape" when it comes to Alicia Machado: "No, there wasn't check out a sex tape. It was just take a look at the person that she built up to be this wonderful Girl Scout who was no Girl Scout." In fact, here's what he tweeted in the wee hours of Sept. 30: "Did Crooked Hillary help disgusting (check out sex tape and past) Alicia M become a U.S. citizen so she could use her in the debate?"


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Monday, October 10, 2016 1:30 PM

THGRRI


They don't get any more conservative than Bill Kristal.


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Monday, October 10, 2016 1:42 PM

THGRRI


enjoy video with your coffee...



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Monday, October 10, 2016 1:55 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Last night Donald Trump told all of Americas' women, you are guilty and responsible for the sins of your husband.

Lets see how that flies.



1kiki
Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously.




THG

First of all what others claim Hillary did regarding this matter has been exaggerated. Secondly, the fact that you don't know the difference between a predator of women, and a women who is unfortunate enough to be married to someone who can't keep it in his pants is sad. I would also remind you the country backed Bill as all this was happening.

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Monday, October 10, 2016 2:18 PM

THGRRI




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Monday, October 10, 2016 2:33 PM

THGRRI




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Monday, October 10, 2016 3:06 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war? Trump is not a war candidate, and that is my #1 reason for voting for Trump.



I keep asking but you refuse to answer. Who are you afraid Hillary is going to start a war with?
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Monday, October 10, 2016 3:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously."

Did Trump say this or not?




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 10, 2016 3:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by THGRRI:
I would also remind you the country backed Bill as all this was happening.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_sexual_misconduct_allegatio
ns

Paula Jones

According to Paula Jones' account, on May 8, 1991, she was escorted to Clinton's hotel room in Little Rock, Arkansas[15] where he propositioned and exposed himself to her. She claimed she kept quiet about the incident until 1994, when a David Brock story in the American Spectator magazine printed an account. In any case, in 1994, Jones filed a federal lawsuit against Clinton, alleging sexual harassment. In the discovery stage of the suit, Jones's lawyers had the opportunity to question Clinton under oath about his sexual history; in the course of this testimony, Clinton denied having had a sexual affair with Monica Lewinsky, a denial that (once his affair with Lewinsky was exposed) would lead to his impeachment for perjury and obstruction of justice.[16]

In April 1998, the case was dismissed by Republican Judge Susan Webber Wright as lacking legal merit.[17] But Jones appealed Webber Wright's ruling, and her suit gained traction following Clinton's admission to having an affair with Monica Lewinsky in August 1998.[18]

On appeal, in the midst of his trial for impeachment based on his testimony in the Jones case, Clinton was faced with the prospect of having to go under oath again and testify more about his sexual history. Instead, Clinton agreed to an out-of-court settlement, paying Jones and her lawyers $850,000 to drop the suit.[19] Clinton's lawyer said that the President made the settlement only so he could end the lawsuit for good and move on with his life.[20]


I'd say Bill paid an awful lot of money to deep-six allegations about things you claim didn't happen.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Monday, October 10, 2016 5:06 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

I'd say Bill paid an awful lot of money to deep-six allegations about things you claim didn't happen.



What you mean is you guess. Actually it deep sixed itself. It was a witch hunt and America did not approve. Your hateful agenda can't change the facts.

(AllPolitics, December 20) -- In the wake of the House of Representatives' approval of two articles of impeachment, Bill Clinton's approval rating has jumped 10 points to 73 percent, the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll shows.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/20/impeachment.poll/

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Monday, October 10, 2016 5:51 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Yanno SECOND, I listened to the debate, and that's not what Trump said. Leave it to a liberal to lie. What Trump actually pointed to, as his big offset, is DEPRECIATION.

And, as is so true, he also said that there are MANY LOOPHOLES - not just carried interest - which Hillary and politicians like Hillary will never close, because it will offend their wealthy donors. I've mentioned these MANY LOOPHOLES before, including deductions, depreciations, subsidies, expenses, carried losses etc. so it's not like they should be news to anybody.

In Sunday night's town hall debate, Donald Trump deflected questions about his taxes by claiming that Hillary Clinton's wealthy supporters had also avoided taxes by exploiting the law. He mentioned several, including Warren Buffett, by name.

Buffett responded with a statement on Monday, saying that Trump was incorrect:

“I have paid federal income tax every year since 1944, when I was 13. (Though, being a slow starter, I owed only $7 in tax that year.) I have copies of all 72 of my returns and none uses a carryforward.

Finally, I have been audited by the IRS multiple times and am currently being audited. I have no problem in releasing my tax information while under audit. Neither would Mr. Trump – at least he would have no legal problem.”

The rest of Buffet’s response to Trump is at
www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161010005859/en/Tax-Facts-Donald-Trum
p

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Monday, October 10, 2016 8:32 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously."

Did Trump say this or not?

Who cares? But you might care how Trump's mind works and how he can adroitly twist a story in case he might be caught. He'd be ready to say "That's not what I heard" and just keep moving onward with the same old lie repeated on another day. Let's pick apart one from many stories Trump told last night. It is not really a story. It's a lie. But Trump really told it well and he even brought the woman to the debate:
www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/10/fact-checking-t
he-second-clinton-trump-presidential-debate
/

“One of the women, who is a wonderful woman, at 12 years old, was raped at 12. Her client she represented got him off, and she’s seen laughing on two separate occasions, laughing at the girl who was raped.”

— Donald Trump at the second debate

Trump's story sounds like it will end Hillary's chances, doesn't it?

In 1975, Clinton — then Hillary Rodham — was a 27-year-old law professor running a legal aid clinic in the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. After a 41-year-old factory worker was accused of raping a 12-year-old girl, he asked the judge to replace his male court-appointed attorney with a female one. The judge went through the list of a half-dozen women practicing law in the county and picked Clinton.

In her autobiography, “Living History,” Clinton wrote, “I told [prosecutor] Mahlon [Gibson] I really don’t feel comfortable taking on such a client, but Mahlon gently reminded me that I couldn’t very well refuse the judge’s request.” Gibson has confirmed that account in interviews with Newsday and CNN, saying Clinton told him: “I don’t want to represent this guy. I just can’t stand this. I don’t want to get involved. Can you get me off?”

Ultimately, the prosecution’s case fell apart for a number of reasons, including investigators mishandling evidence of bloody underwear, so in a plea agreement the charges were reduced from first-degree rape to unlawful fondling of a minor under the age of 14. Not until 2008 did the victim, Kathy Shelton, realize that Clinton had been the lawyer on the other side. She has since attacked Clinton for putting “me through hell,” and she appeared at a news event with Trump before the debate.

The rape case reemerged when the Washington Free Beacon in 2014 discovered unpublished audio recordings from the mid-1980s of Clinton being interviewed by Arkansas reporter Roy Reed for an article that was never published.

In the recorded interview, Clinton is heard laughing or giggling four times when discussing the case with unusual candor; the reporter is also heard laughing, and sometimes Clinton is responding to him.

Here are the four instances:

“Of course he [the defendant] claimed he didn’t rape. All this stuff. He took a lie detector test. I had him take a polygraph, which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs.” (Both Clinton and the reporter laugh.)

“So I got an order to see the evidence and the prosecutor didn’t want me to see the evidence. I had to go to Maupin Cummings [the judge] and convince Maupin that yes indeed I had a right to see the evidence before it was presented. (Clinton laughs lightly between “evidence” and “before.”)

“I handed it [a biography of her expert witness] to Mahlon Gibson, and I said, ‘Well this guy’s ready to come up from New York to prevent this miscarriage of justice.’” (Clinton laughs, as does the reporter.)

“So [Judge] Maupin had to, you know, under law he was supposed to determine whether the plea was factually supported. Maupin asked me to leave the room while he examined my client so that he could find out if it was factually supported. I said ‘Judge I can’t leave the room I’m his lawyer!’ he said ‘I know but I don’t want to talk about this in front of you.’” (Reporter says, “Oh God, really?” And they both laugh.)

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Monday, October 10, 2016 9:13 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously."

Did Trump say this or not?

Who cares? But you might care how Trump's mind works and how he can adroitly twist a story in case he might be caught. He'd be ready to say "That's not what I heard" and just keep moving onward with the same old lie repeated on another day. Let's pick apart one from many stories Trump told last night. It is not really a story. It's a lie. But Trump really told it well and he even brought the woman to the debate:
www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/10/fact-checking-t
he-second-clinton-trump-presidential-debate
/

“One of the women, who is a wonderful woman, at 12 years old, was raped at 12. Her client she represented got him off, and she’s seen laughing on two separate occasions, laughing at the girl who was raped.”

— Donald Trump at the second debate

Trump's story sounds like it will end Hillary's chances, doesn't it?

In 1975, Clinton — then Hillary Rodham — was a 27-year-old law professor running a legal aid clinic in the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. After a 41-year-old factory worker was accused of raping a 12-year-old girl, he asked the judge to replace his male court-appointed attorney with a female one. The judge went through the list of a half-dozen women practicing law in the county and picked Clinton.

In her autobiography, “Living History,” Clinton wrote, “I told [prosecutor] Mahlon [Gibson] I really don’t feel comfortable taking on such a client, but Mahlon gently reminded me that I couldn’t very well refuse the judge’s request.” Gibson has confirmed that account in interviews with Newsday and CNN, saying Clinton told him: “I don’t want to represent this guy. I just can’t stand this. I don’t want to get involved. Can you get me off?”

Ultimately, the prosecution’s case fell apart for a number of reasons, including investigators mishandling evidence of bloody underwear, so in a plea agreement the charges were reduced from first-degree rape to unlawful fondling of a minor under the age of 14. Not until 2008 did the victim, Kathy Shelton, realize that Clinton had been the lawyer on the other side. She has since attacked Clinton for putting “me through hell,” and she appeared at a news event with Trump before the debate.

The rape case reemerged when the Washington Free Beacon in 2014 discovered unpublished audio recordings from the mid-1980s of Clinton being interviewed by Arkansas reporter Roy Reed for an article that was never published.

In the recorded interview, Clinton is heard laughing or giggling four times when discussing the case with unusual candor; the reporter is also heard laughing, and sometimes Clinton is responding to him.

Here are the four instances:

“Of course he [the defendant] claimed he didn’t rape. All this stuff. He took a lie detector test. I had him take a polygraph, which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs.” (Both Clinton and the reporter laugh.)

“So I got an order to see the evidence and the prosecutor didn’t want me to see the evidence. I had to go to Maupin Cummings [the judge] and convince Maupin that yes indeed I had a right to see the evidence before it was presented. (Clinton laughs lightly between “evidence” and “before.”)

“I handed it [a biography of her expert witness] to Mahlon Gibson, and I said, ‘Well this guy’s ready to come up from New York to prevent this miscarriage of justice.’” (Clinton laughs, as does the reporter.)

“So [Judge] Maupin had to, you know, under law he was supposed to determine whether the plea was factually supported. Maupin asked me to leave the room while he examined my client so that he could find out if it was factually supported. I said ‘Judge I can’t leave the room I’m his lawyer!’ he said ‘I know but I don’t want to talk about this in front of you.’” (Reporter says, “Oh God, really?” And they both laugh.)



Very well done SECOND

I would rather have someone other than Clinton to vote for but. I have watched the republicans rewrite the facts about the Clintons over and over again whenever they felt the need. 1kiki and SIG are two very good examples as to why they get away with it. Their type who have agendas ( Benghazi ) and all the voters out their that do nothing to search out the truth. That would be the voters following Trump that actually believe him.


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Monday, October 10, 2016 10:28 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

I would rather have someone other than Clinton to vote for but. . .

I also was disappointed that she didn’t point out that Trump’s campaign is funded very substantially by an oil magnate and two finance-industry billionaires—the Mercers and the Ricketts.

And I was surprised and disappointed that she didn’t make clear that Trump’s proposed fiscal policies would add—what?—$10 trillion to the national debt in the space of about 10 minutes, or something.

http://angrybearblog.com/2016/10/my-near-out-of-body-experience-while-
watching-the-debate-last-night-hearing-clintons-answer-to-the-supreme-court-nominees-question.html

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:20 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr




THHGRI, all your YouTubez are blocked az 'private'.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, October 10, 2016 11:33 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by JO753:

THHGRI, all your YouTubez are blocked az 'private'.




I enjoyed yours and fixed mine. Thanks for the heads up. If there is a problem please let me know.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 1:05 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Youre welcome.

Bad nyooz, they are still blocked. I suspect you hav a subscription that allowz you to view them.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:21 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously."
Did Trump say this or not?
Originally posted by second:
Who cares?


Anyone who cares that things like facts and evidence are used in arguments should.
Do you care?

So, speaking of facts, it's a fact I scroll past your carefully selected hate-Trump propaganda.




Let me just point out that the author left out vital relevant facts in the opinion piece. Doing that is known as cherry-picking. And whether you do that in the news, in discussion, in debate or in opinion, when you distort the facts, you've changed the nature of your communication into propaganda. But WE don't have any of THAT in the US, do we?!

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:37 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


About Trumps claim that Bill wuz the most abusive prez in history - He apparently never herd uv a guy name John F Kennedy.

https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/politician
s/jfk.html




----------------------------
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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 5:31 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Hey Second, thanks for posting the audio transcript of Hillary's conversation with the news reporter that was recently released. That was very helpful to me in understanding the series of events.

Now I have a better understanding.


SGG

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:10 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Hey Second, thanks for posting the audio transcript of Hillary's conversation with the news reporter that was recently released. That was very helpful to me in understanding the series of events.

Now I have a better understanding.


SGG

I think this explains Trump:

Question from American Conservative: What did watching Donald Trump’s speech last night make you think about this fall campaign, and the future of the country?
www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

Answer from J.D. Vance: Well, I think the speech itself was a perfect microcosm of why I love and am terrified of Donald Trump. On the one hand, he criticized the elites and actually acknowledge the hurt of so many working class voters. After so many years of Republican politicians refusing to even talk about factory closures, Trump’s message is an oasis in the desert. But of course he spent way too much time appealing to people’s fears, and he offered zero substance for how to improve their lives. It was Trump at his best and worst.

My biggest fear with Trump is that, because of the failures of the Republican and Democratic elites, the bar for the white working class is too low. They’re willing to listen to Trump about rapist immigrants and banning all Muslims because other parts of his message are clearly legitimate. A lot of people think Trump is just the first to appeal to the racism and xenophobia that were already there, but I think he’s making the problem worse.

The other big problem I have with Trump is that he has dragged down our entire political conversation. It’s not just that he inflames the tribalism of the Right; it’s that he encourages the worst impulses of the Left. In the past few weeks, I’ve heard from so many of my elite friends some version of, “Trump is the racist leader all of these racist white people deserve.” These comments almost always come from white progressives who know literally zero culturally working class Americans. And I’m always left thinking: if this is the quality of thought of a Harvard Law graduate, then our society is truly doomed. In a world of Trump, we’ve abandoned the pretense of persuasion. The November election strikes me as little more than a referendum on whose tribe is bigger.

But I remain incredibly optimistic about the future. Maybe that’s the hillbilly resilience in me. Or maybe I’m just an idiot. But if writing this book, and talking with friends and strangers about its message, has taught me anything, it’s that most people are trying incredibly hard to make it, even in this more complicated and scary world. The short view of our country is that we’re doomed. The long view, inherited from my grandparents’ 1930s upbringing in coal country, is that all of us can still control some part of our fate. Even if we are doomed, there’s reason to pretend otherwise.

JD Vance wrote "How Donald Trump seduced America’s white working class" - An acute insight into the reasons these voters almost found a new messiah in a man regarded as an offensive clown by many, a man who ultimately cannot save them.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/jd-vance-hillbilly-elegy
-donald-trump-us-white-poor-working-class
Quote:

And in late 2015, the party appeared ready to crown Jeb Bush, the scion of a wealthy family whose policy programme differed little from Mitt Romney’s, even as his tone did. This was the brother of a man who started two unsuccessful wars, wars whose burden was disproportionately shouldered by the white middle and working class. And though a number of putative challengers offered stylistic contrasts with the younger Bush brother, no one challenged the core premise at the heart of his candidacy: tax cuts and deregulation at home combined with an active, military-focused foreign policy abroad. Just eight years after George W Bush left office to historically low approval numbers, the party appeared primed to double down on Bush, both in policy and in genetics. And no one seemed that interested in stopping it.

Except for Donald Trump.

By the way, Who is this J.D. Vance giving the answer?
“I don’t know what the answer is, precisely, but I know it starts when we stop blaming Obama or Bush or faceless companies and ask ourselves what we can do to make things better,” Vance writes. “We hillbillies need to wake the hell up.”
www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-lives-of-poor-white-peo
ple


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

So, speaking of facts, it's a fact I scroll past your carefully selected hate-Trump propaganda.


J.D. Vance should be running as the Republican candidate for President, rather than Trump. Vance could easily beat Hillary, except he is only 31. Sadly, the Constitutional lower age limit on a President is 35.
www.linkedin.com/in/jd-vance-770a9047



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 9:21 AM

THGRRI


Can anyone here see the videos I've posted?

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 9:42 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

Can anyone here see the videos I've posted?

Yes. Each is no longer blocked as "private". I see that "John Johnson" must have fixed that.
One says: "This video is unlisted. Be considerate and think twice before sharing." Somebody must be overly concerned about copyright violations and take-down notices sent by those copyright holders to youtube.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:32 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

Can anyone here see the videos I've posted?

Yes. Each is no longer blocked as "private".



Great, thanks

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:35 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
How any person could vote for Trump - no matter how bad Hillary is - is beyond me. How any WOMAN with any desire to claim she is intelligent and/or independent of thought is unfathomable.

It is easy to explain:

In the eight years since Obama’s election, the white working class had grown angry: at the economy that failed to deliver good jobs, at the failed prosecution of two wars, at a government bureaucracy that failed to deliver good healthcare for veterans, at policy-makers who bailed out megabanks in the 2008 financial crisis even as many Americans lost their homes. The party didn’t want another Mitt Romney and it sure as hell didn’t want Jeb Bush, just another Bush. It wanted, most of all, a man whose very existence is the opposite of everything prior nominees stood for.

This was about more than finances and the macroeconomy problem. As a culture, working-class white Americans like myself had no heroes. We loved the military but had no George S Patton figure in the modern army. I doubt my neighbors could even name a high-ranking military officer. The space program, long a source of pride, had gone the way of the dodo and with it the celebrity astronauts. We had lost any trust in the media as guardians of truth and consequently many were willing to believe all manner of conspiracies about our allegedly foreign-born president and his supposed grabs for power. The same could be said about Hillary by only changing the details of the conspiracies.

Many in the US and abroad marvel that a showy billionaire could inspire such allegiance among relatively poor voters. Yet in style and tone, Trump reminds blue-collar workers of themselves. Gone are the poll-tested and consultant-approved political lines, replaced with a backslapping swashbuckler unafraid of saying what’s on his mind. The elites of DC and NY see an offensive madman, blowing through decades of political convention with his every word. His voters, on the other hand, see a man who’s refreshingly relatable, who talks about politics and policy as if he were sitting around the dinner table.

More important is Trump’s message. Implicit in the slogan “Make America Great Again” is a belief that one’s country is not especially great right now and that’s certainly how many of Middletown’s residents felt.

The tragedy of Trump’s candidacy is that, embedded in his furious exhortations against Muslims and Mexicans and trade deals gone awry is a message that America’s white poor don’t need: that everything wrong in your life (and Trump's) is someone else’s fault.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/jd-vance-hillbilly-elegy
-donald-trump-us-white-poor-working-class


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 11:13 AM

THGRRI


I would correct one thing SECOND. It's not just that our economy did not deliver good paying jobs. It's that our government helped strip them of their good paying jobs. Our government is as guilty as cooperate America for leaving many Americans in poverty and destitute. In many instances companies that left took advantage of the tax system and our government paid their travel expenses. This led to whole swaths of our country disappearing into poverty. If it was just bigotry behind Trump, his numbers would be more like 25% of voters. Maybe even less.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 11:51 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I would correct one thing SECOND. It's not just that our economy did not deliver good paying jobs. It's that our government helped strip them of their good paying jobs. Our government is as guilty as cooperate America for leaving many Americans in poverty and destitute. In many instances companies that left took advantage of the tax system and our government paid their travel expenses. This led to whole swaths of our country disappearing into poverty. If it was just bigotry behind Trump, his numbers would be more like 25% of voters. Maybe even less.

I think there is a floor beneath the Republican vote. Any Republican would get 40% of the popular vote. If it was any other Republican than Trump, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, or Bobby Jindal, the Republicans would be winning against Hillary. Obviously the Trump lovers don't see their preferred President as a con-man who took advantage of their attitudes. But Republican primary voters wanted the biggest promise maker/liar from the field of 16 possible candidates and they certainly got that. 52% of the words from Trump's mouth are false or worse -- "pants on fire" false.


www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 11:59 AM

BYTEMITE


They're both war candidates as far as I can tell because the Republicans remain very xenophobic and trigger happy, and if Trump isn't (his rhetoric suggests he is), they'll push him into conflict anyway. Hillary's always been a warhawk.

Both are controlled by very ugly pasts. Clinton by Bill sexually coercing, assaulting, and raping people (including a 12 year old), Trump by sexually coercing, assaulting, and raping people (including a 13 year old). The allegations against both are very believable, as they both associated with Jeffery Epstein who was convicted for this kind of exploitation.

It still find it amazing that this election has come down to this. At this point I think it doesn't matter who gets elected anymore, it's going to be a trainwreck either way. This is not an election cycle where anything can possibly be changed - maybe Gary Johnson might grab some of the Trump supporters that are abandoning him, and he wouldn't be bad, whatever memory problems he has can be countered with some advisors, and he's stable. Jill Stein would be nice but she doesn't have a chance because she didn't grab the Bernie people.

Ultimately though because I think nothing is going to be changed about all I can do is vote based on the few policies I do agree with, even if there's no chance they'll get put into effect, and that's coming from the left-wing. So Hillary. I hope Hillary gets tried for war crimes while in office though. None of this email or Benghazi nonsense that's just scraping the barrel looking for something to pin on her, actual crimes. I hope Bill also goes to prison and has to register as a sex offender.

Here's hoping 2020 won't be such a shitshow! See you all then probably!

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 12:02 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I would correct one thing SECOND. It's not just that our economy did not deliver good paying jobs. It's that our government helped strip them of their good paying jobs. Our government is as guilty as cooperate America for leaving many Americans in poverty and destitute. In many instances companies that left took advantage of the tax system and our government paid their travel expenses. This led to whole swaths of our country disappearing into poverty. If it was just bigotry behind Trump, his numbers would be more like 25% of voters. Maybe even less.

I think there is a floor beneath the Republican vote. Any Republican would get 40% of the popular vote. If it was any other Republican than Trump, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, or Bobby Jindal, the Republicans would be winning against Hillary. Obviously the Trump lovers don't see their preferred President as a con-man who took advantage of their attitudes. But Republican primary voters wanted the biggest promise maker/liar from the field of 16 possible candidates and they certainly got that. 52% of the words from Trump's mouth are false or worse -- "pants on fire" false.





What I said was if you considered the percentage of his vote that was based on bigotry.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 12:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I would correct one thing SECOND. It's not just that our economy did not deliver good paying jobs. It's that our government helped strip them of their good paying jobs. Our government is as guilty as cooperate America for leaving many Americans in poverty and destitute. In many instances companies that left took advantage of the tax system and our government paid their travel expenses. This led to whole swaths of our country disappearing into poverty. If it was just bigotry behind Trump, his numbers would be more like 25% of voters. Maybe even less.

I think there is a floor beneath the Republican vote. Any Republican would get 40% of the popular vote. If it was any other Republican than Trump, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, or Bobby Jindal, the Republicans would be winning against Hillary. Obviously the Trump lovers don't see their preferred President as a con-man who took advantage of their attitudes. But Republican primary voters wanted the biggest promise maker/liar from the field of 16 possible candidates and they certainly got that. 52% of the words from Trump's mouth are false or worse -- "pants on fire" false.





What I said was if you considered the percentage of his vote that was based on bigotry.

It doesn't matter if you're a racist or a bigot or life-long Republican. Voting for Trump during the Primary was stupid. Now that the choice is one or the other, voting for Trump is smart, if you're a Republican.

When there are only two parties who have candidates with a chance to win, it is on them to provide candidates worthy of the job. After all, with great power comes great responsibility. On this front the presidential election is catastrophic failure. The lineup offered up by the Republican party was a parade of horrors. They ranged from mediocre (Bush, Kasich) to terrible (Fiorina, Perry) to beyond my most feverish nightmares (most of the rest). If Trump's campaign has given you fond memories of what could have been, I recommend you remind yourself of how truly awful the rest were.

Democrats did marginally better in that they stayed in the mediocre to terrible part of the spectrum. Bernie Sanders can raise the roof, but was never a credible alternative to Clinton. Hillary Clinton seems to operate with the philosophy that what's good is whatever is good for Hillary. A recent article in the Economist gives a good summary of how her political and personal life is tangled beyond separation. A reasonable candidate on the other side (I have a soft spot for Jon Huntsman) would have had no trouble winning against Clinton. She's not the candidate I would have chosen, but at least she'll do a decent job of it.

How did we get into this mess? It is the Founding Fathers’ Fault. This is not the only way to vote (most Americans know nothing about alternative systems where you get more than one vote) but it was the only way Washington and Jefferson knew. The Fathers decided that US elections are run according to the "first past the post" rule: each person gets to vote for one candidate per office and the candidate with the most votes, wins. It's not hard to see that this voting system tends toward having two big parties. Not only do the Libertarians and Greens not have a chance, their candidates this year are also terrible.

It is a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest: when you can you try and draw voters away from your competitors and to your side (see: Reagan Democrats, Bill Clinton's "triangulation," Tony Blair's "third way," Hillary Clinton's tack to the left to pull in Sanders's supporters, etc.). Parties who can't or won't play this game slowly starve themselves and shrink down to the core who won't be wooed under any circumstances. The political scientists call this Duverger's Law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

And, of course, with size comes market dominance: the biggest parties use their power to prevent the rise of competitors by redistricting, controlling access to debates, to the ballot, etc. It's nothing less than a good ol' fashioned oligopoly. In Oklahoma the Democratic party is a withered shell. Without a credible opposition the politicians see no need to do a proper job of running the state.

www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2016/10/in-june-here-at3qdwe-talked-
aboutarrows-impossibility-theorem-the-short-version-is-this-the-onlyvoting-system-which-satisfi.html

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 12:26 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I would correct one thing SECOND. It's not just that our economy did not deliver good paying jobs. It's that our government helped strip them of their good paying jobs. Our government is as guilty as cooperate America for leaving many Americans in poverty and destitute. In many instances companies that left took advantage of the tax system and our government paid their travel expenses. This led to whole swaths of our country disappearing into poverty. If it was just bigotry behind Trump, his numbers would be more like 25% of voters. Maybe even less.

I think there is a floor beneath the Republican vote. Any Republican would get 40% of the popular vote. If it was any other Republican than Trump, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, or Bobby Jindal, the Republicans would be winning against Hillary. Obviously the Trump lovers don't see their preferred President as a con-man who took advantage of their attitudes. But Republican primary voters wanted the biggest promise maker/liar from the field of 16 possible candidates and they certainly got that. 52% of the words from Trump's mouth are false or worse -- "pants on fire" false.





What I said was if you considered the percentage of his vote that was based on bigotry.




It doesn't matter if you're a racist or a bigot or life-long Republican. Voting for Trump during the Primary was stupid. Now that the choice is one or the other, voting for Trump is smart, if you're a Republican.




No, voting for Trump is definitely dangerous and will be a disaster. Clinton may turn out that way but for now at least she is qualified.



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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 1:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

How any person could vote for Trump - no matter how bad Hillary is - is beyond me. How any WOMAN with any desire to claim she is intelligent and/or independent of thought is unfathomable. = G

It is easy to explain:
In the eight years since Obama’s election, the white working class had grown angry: at the economy that failed to deliver good jobs, at the failed prosecution of two wars, at a government bureaucracy that failed to deliver good healthcare for veterans, at policy-makers who bailed out megabanks in the 2008 financial crisis even as many Americans lost their homes. The party didn’t want another Mitt Romney and it sure as hell didn’t want Jeb Bush, just another Bush. It wanted, most of all, a man whose very existence is the opposite of everything prior nominees stood for.

So far, so good. It doesn't describe me, except very peripherally, but it could describe a lot of people - not only the dismissed Tea Partiers but also the dismissed Occupy Movement.

Quote:

This was about more than finances and the macroeconomy problem. As a culture, working-class white Americans like myself had no heroes. We loved the military but had no George S Patton figure in the modern army. I doubt my neighbors could even name a high-ranking military officer. The space program, long a source of pride, had gone the way of the dodo and with it the celebrity astronauts. We had lost any trust in the media as guardians of truth and consequently many were willing to believe all manner of conspiracies about our allegedly foreign-born president and his supposed grabs for power. The same could be said about Hillary by only changing the details of the conspiracies.
Too bad that the conspiracies really occurred.

Quote:

Many in the US and abroad marvel that a showy billionaire could inspire such allegiance among relatively poor voters. Yet in style and tone, Trump reminds blue-collar workers of themselves. Gone are the poll-tested and consultant-approved political lines, replaced with a backslapping swashbuckler unafraid of saying what’s on his mind. The elites of DC and NY see an offensive madman, blowing through decades of political convention with his every word. His voters, on the other hand, see a man who’s refreshingly relatable, who talks about politics and policy as if he were sitting around the dinner table.

More important is Trump’s message. Implicit in the slogan “Make America Great Again” is a belief that one’s country is not especially great right now and that’s certainly how many of Middletown’s residents felt.

Probably correct, but doesn't describe me.

Quote:

The tragedy of Trump’s candidacy is that, embedded in his furious exhortations against Muslims and Mexicans and trade deals gone awry is a message that America’s white poor don’t need: that everything wrong in your life (and Trump's) is someone else’s fault.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/jd-vance-hillbilly-elegy
-donald-trump-us-white-poor-working-class


Okay, now here's where I part company from not only "liberals" but also the rust-belt downtrodden.

1) Importantly, I don't see myself as a "woman" first, so "How any WOMAN with any desire to claim she is intelligent and/or independent of thought is unfathomable" doesn't apply to me. I identify myself FIRST as a human being. Anything that threatens "humans", by definition, will threaten me, despite me being "a woman". So species-wide threats take precedence over gender-specific threats.

2) Despite THUGR's and MAL4's constant lying, I am - and I see myself as - an American next, a citizen of the USA. This is my second-most important category. Threats to "America" aren't going to make exceptions for older white women. Whatever harms "America" ... missiles, detonated explosives, financial collapse ... will fall hardest on those least able to cope: the sick, disabled, cognitively or emotionally impaired, the elderly, and the poor. That means me, my husband, and our daughter, and my sisters. We're all in this together.

So responding to the nature of threats facing me, I see that



HILLARY IS A WARMONGER

And that is the greatest danger for me, my husband, and our daughter, and my sisters.

I don't need to go back into history. I don't need to linke her to
Bill's destruction of Yugoslavia
Her vote to invade Iraq
Her State Department's destabilization of Ukraine (a democratically-elected government, by the way)
Destruction of Libya
Recognition of the coup government in Honduras (in which she admitted a role ( http://www.democracynow.org/2016/4/13/hear_hillary_clinton_defend_her_
role
),
Her attempt to destroy Syria
Overall support of jihadists in the ME and elsewhere
Her general rampaging through the South China Sea and destabilization of nations everywhere she goes.

I don't need to refer to that, or link her to the neocons and banks and Saudis who support her, or convince you of her level of complicity and culpability in all of the above.

NOPE!

All I have to do is point to her recent and ongoing provocation of Russia. Launching baseless .... and I mean really baseless ... accusations about Russia, calling Putin a new Hitler, and in general acting like the complete neocon dick that she is.
Worse than being a neocon, she a STUPID neocon. The results of hers, Kerry's, Obama's, Bush's and Cheney's policies have been to march arm-in-arm with the Saudis and Qataris, whose main goals are to spread wahhabism throughout the world. AND SHE'S DONE A BANG-UP JOB OF THAT.
Now she stupidly wants war with Russia. She acts like Russia is some backwater nation like Iraq or Libya, which doesn't have the means or the will to defend itself. Our State Department (HILLARY'S State Department), CIA, and Pentagon have done everything they can to provoke Russia and that includes (but isn't limited to) bombing and strafing a Syrian Army position for over an hour despite repeated phone calls from Russia to the American Air Command. THAT was no "mistake", despite what Kerry said.

We are already in the beginning steps of WWIII. I can detail approximately a dozen aggressive acts initiated by the USA against Russia or Russia's partners - such as attempting a coup in Turkey. Don't you realize that a direct shooting war may have already started* ... and that Russia will do everything it can to survive from a militarily smaller position?

*Altho you won't find it in the western press. In retaliation for the Act of War of striking and strafing a Syrian Army position on purpose ...

Quote:

RUSSIAN WARSHIP OFF SYRIA COAST TARGETS AND DESTROYS "FOREIGN OPERATIONS CENTER" -- US, ISRAELI AND TURK MILITARY OFFICERS KILLED

"The Russian warships stationed in Syria’s coastal waters targeted and destroyed a foreign military operations room, killing over two dozen Israeli and western intelligence officers. “The Russian warships fired three Caliber missiles at the foreign officers’ coordination operations room in Dar Ezza region in the Western part of Aleppo near Sam’an mountain, killing 30 Israeli and western officers,” the Arabic-language service of Russia’s Sputnik news agency quoted battlefield source in Aleppo as saying on Wednesday.
The operations room was located in the Western part of Aleppo province in the middle of sky-high Sam’an mountain and old caves. The region is deep into a chain of mountains.
Several US, Turkish, Saudi, Qatari and British officers were also killed along with the Israeli officers. The foreign officers who were killed in the Aleppo operations room were directing the terrorists’ attacks in Aleppo and Idlib.


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/09/22/unconfirmed-russian-med-ship-l
aunch-missile-attack-to-kill-foreign-command-center-near-aleppo
/

We are in a state of war, and have been for over a year. Saddam, Qaddafi, and Assad were just tests of our collective willingness not to see the elephant in the room.

OKAY, so Hillary is a warmonger, and she is, apparently, on-board with warring against Russia. She's certainly said so often enough.




HILLARY IS A GLOBALIST
She said so herself. "My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders," To her, there is no America and no American interests. She wants open trade and open borders, she wants ... whatever it is that the transnationals and banks want so they can make more money from even poorer people.




As you know, I'm a patriot and a humanist. I combine both of these impulses into the idea that, instead of providing "aid" to the world or a home to economic migrants and victims of violence and poverty, we should first STOP destabilizing other nations, and turning them into such hellholes that people are forced to leave.

Right now, Hillary is on-track to make the rest of the world an even more dangerous place .... assuming she doesn't trigger a nuclear apocalypse out of sheer hubris ... and in her "borderless" "one world" ideal we will all be subject to the misery and poverty that she herself has unleashed. There is no way that all of her fantasies about "better education" and "green power" will withstand the nightmare that she seems committed to unleashing.


As far as what Trump said about women 11 years ago ... who the fuck cares? Compared to the shitstorms that Hillary and her neocon buddies have unleashed ... and are planning for our future ... it's a tempest in a teacup.



Hillary is a WAR CANDIDATE, and that's just what we need, right? More war?

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 1:51 PM

THGRRI


Wow SIG, in your rant above you quote sources and lies from the far left and right. The sensible center is nowhere to be found. One source you quote is protecting Assange who is responsible for Wikipedia, and the other calls Wikipedia a terrorist organization and demands that it be banned in America. Now since none of your opinions or sources can survive in a climate of logic, I am forced to dismiss your response to my question as irrational. And if your response is irrational than the concept it is based on, that Clinton will start another war, is also irrational.

I ask a very simple question. How about you try and give a simple non-subjective answer. Who is it you are afraid Hillary Clinton will start a war with?


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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 2:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Please scroll up to see my post. THUGR is just trying to bury it with idiocy.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 2:08 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Please scroll up to see my post. THUGR is just trying to bury it with idiocy.




Yeah that's funny. I am replying less with quotes with you and 1kiki because of all the cut and pasted subjective bullshit you post. In this case as a way of avoiding my very simple question.

Who are you afraid Hillary will start a war with?

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 2:08 PM

THGRRI



Double

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Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

No, voting for Trump is definitely dangerous and will be a disaster. Clinton may turn out that way but for now at least she is qualified.

Yes, President Trump would be a disaster, but not for the Republican Party. They feel the need to appoint a Scalia-clone to the Supreme Court. Trump would nominate whoever Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell think best. One thing Trump won't do is curb income tax cheating by the wealthy because he is a cheater. Ryan and McConnell don't mind. That tax cheating might be the driving force behind many problems plaguing the USA.

All those projects that can't be done because there is no money? The money is being hidden. All the influence that the wealthy have in government? Bought with tax cheating money. I saw a review of five books on tax-cheating. Here is an interesting quote:

One of the reporters who worked on the Panama Papers is describing the main conclusion he drew from his months of delving into millions of leaked documents about tax evasion. “Basically, we’re the dupes in this story,” he says. “Previously, we thought that the offshore world was a shadowy, but minor, part of our economic system. What we learned from the Panama Papers is that it is the economic system.”

Luke Harding was in Oxford to talk about his work as one of four hundred–odd journalists around the world who had access to the 2.6 terabytes of information about tax havens—the so-called Panama Papers—that were revealed to the world in simultaneous publication in eighty countries this spring. “The economic system is, basically, that the rich and the powerful exited long ago from the messy business of paying tax,” Harding told an audience of academics and research students. “They don’t pay tax anymore, and they haven’t paid tax for quite a long time. We pay tax, but they don’t pay tax. The burden of taxation has moved inexorably away from multinational companies and rich people to ordinary people.”

Why did the source leak the Panama papers? In a two-thousand-word manifesto published after the publication of the main material, he or she claimed to be motivated by exposing income inequality—and the way in which the “wealth management” industry had financed crime, war, drug dealing, and fraud on a grand scale.

“I decided to expose Mossack Fonseca because I thought its founders, employees and clients should have to answer for their roles in these crimes, only some of which have come to light thus far,” he or she wrote. “It will take years, possibly decades, for the full extent of the firm’s sordid acts to become known. In the meantime, a new global debate has started, which is encouraging.”

www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/10/27/panama-the-hidden-trillions/

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