REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Boeing 737 Max

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, August 17, 2019 10:56
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Sunday, March 17, 2019 8:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Apparently the plane was redesigned to accomodate a more powerful, more efficient engine with altered aerodynamics. Then, in order to counter those changes, an "anti-stall" subroutine was programmed into the autopilot. According to some reports, several American pilots have voluntarily reported that the moment that they engaged the autopilot the plane went steeply nose-down, and the only way they could regain control was by disengaging the autopilot. Supposedly, since none of these incidents resulted in an accident, they aren't kept in the FAA database.

In the case of the Ethiopian crash, the "jack screw" indicates that the plane was set to dive. Now, I doubt the pilots did that and deliberately crashed the plane; more likely that in the panic they didn't disengage the autopilot and couldn't overcome the autopilot settings.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/business/boeing-ethiopian-crash.htm
l


It will be interesting to see what the final investigation shows, but this is a blow to Boeing.

There was a similar incident regarding an Airbus operated by French airlines which was lost over the Atlantic on Brazil to France flight. As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plance from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/air-france-flight-447-crash-report-airbu
s-autopilot-to-blame


Self-driving cars, anyone???

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 1:58 PM

BRENDA


The planes of this type we have in Canada have been grounded. And from what I heard on the news other countries have grounded them too.

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 3:49 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 4:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Any system which fights against the pilot and basic physics , will ultimately fail. Sadly, when Boeing made 'adjustments' to the new MAX, they failed to alter their instruction manual for pilots.

It's reported that the data from the 2 most recent 737 crashes are showing similar info, indicating that the crashes weren't random flukes or coincidence.

This really sucks for Boeing, which , until recently, had been doing extremely well.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 4:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm not sure if this analysis is correct, but it's extremely detailed and matches all f the publicly-available configuration differences between the 737 and the 737-max series, including the handling characeristics changes which came from the landing gear changes which were necessitated by the larger engines.

Quote:

The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-17/best-analysis-what-really-ha
ppened-boeing-737-max-pilot-software-engineer


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 5:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

Boeing failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

Boeing assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — initiating a tug of war as the automatic controls repeatedly pushed the nose of the plane down and the pilots wrestled with the manual controls to pull it back up, before the final crash.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Several technical experts inside the FAA said October’s Lion Air crash is only the latest indicator that the agency’s delegation of airplane certification has gone too far, and that it’s inappropriate for Boeing employees to have so much authority over safety analyses of Boeing jets.

Blame the Republicans in Congress: The FAA, citing lack of funding and resources, has over the years delegated increasing authority to Boeing to take on more of the work of certifying the safety of its own airplanes.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:30 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

Rue, you are wrong in all the details: Airbus has three sensors. All failed because of ice. The autopilot shut off, as it should, leaving control to the co-pilot, who crashed the plane. Captain Chesley Sullenberger said, "I don't know why he did that." The co-pilot's last words were 'what's happening?', then splat into the ocean. Yep, he sure didn't know.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2790768/f-dead-pilot-shouted-air-fran
ce-jet-plunged-atlantic-final-moments-doomed-flight-447-two-sleeping-pilots-revealed.html



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 8:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.



This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

I'm sure that coupled with company cutbacks lead to Monster.com job postings for their pilots reading something like this:

"Got a smart phone? Wanna fly a plane? It's easy! My ex-wife flies a plane, and she's 'tarded!"



So, yes, Captain Crunch... In response to your dismissal that Idiocracy has gone from being a comedy to a documentary, planes are now falling out of the sky.

If I can remember where that post was, I'll be sure to reply with this story for you.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, March 17, 2019 8:34 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

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Monday, March 18, 2019 8:01 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, March 18, 2019 8:21 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, March 18, 2019 8:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You need to stop picking one sentence out of my posts and taking them out of context, shit for brains.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I picked one sentence to help you focus on what the Seattle Times wrote about Boeing's fatally bad design. Did you read the Seattle Times before you wrote back? No? If you had, you would see that the FAA rubber-stamped Boeing's bad design because the Republicans in Congress did not give the FAA enough money to check the design.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, March 18, 2019 10:56 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

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Monday, March 18, 2019 11:28 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

ummmmm.
The MCAS is a new development. It does not stand for Marine Corps Air Station in this instance.
The Manoeuvering Characteristics Augmentation System is suspected in the causes of the MAX crashes. The MCAS is disengaged when Auto-Pilot is active. MCAS is engaged when Auto-Pilot is disengaged, and Pilots were not informed, not allowed to know that this Flight Control override even existed. So, Nose-Dive procedures are to disengage Auto-Pilot, so that MCAS will put you into a Nose-Dive.


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Monday, March 18, 2019 12:07 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.

These pilots did not have the instinct of self-preservation or else they would know how this crash could be prevented: By turning the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim, preventing MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft. This means that the pilots must manually move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/61203/how-difficult-is-it
-to-simply-disable-disengage-the-mcas-on-boeing-737-max-8-9/61208#61208


I've saved my life a thousand times by using the OFF switch. These pilots could have, too, but didn't have the commonsense to try. That does not exonerate Boeing from a crappy design that kills pilots lacking commonsense. It does not exonerate the FAA from letting Boeing sell a crappy design.

The unexpected can easily cause a pilot's brain to lock, especially when they think "I'M ALREADY DOING THE RIGHT ACTION WHY ISN'T IT WORKING!?!?!", and they continue to (ineffectively) fight the controls as the ground gets closer and closer, the stick is shaking and alarms are going nuts.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, March 18, 2019 1:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, March 18, 2019 2:04 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No matter what the issue or event, we can always count on SECOND to find a way to say It's All Trump's Fault. So despite the fact that the max series design was begun in 2011 and Boeing was in constant communication with the FAA during the design and certification process (for example, the FAA had to approve the request to certify the max series as a "modification" instead of as a whole new design) I think we can take as a given that SECOND will work Trump into the thread somehow, and ignore anything it posts aloong those lines.

Boeing's design was unintentionally crappy, killing two plane-loads. The FAA didn't double-check Boeing's design because the FAA's budget was cut by Republicans in Congress, so that the FAA couldn't protect the World from Boeing's mistakes. This is how the world works, Signym, but you misunderstand the simplest things about Boeing doing the FAA's review of Boeing's design because the FAA didn't have the staff, because of Congress, to do the work:

Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

This is roughly equivalent to Republicans in Congress cutting back the IRS budget so that it cannot audit tax returns. The result isn't a plane crash, instead, $2 trillion income goes unreported and $500 billion tax is not collected. It is a deliberate policy by Congress to give a tax cut to cheaters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_in_the_United_States

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, March 18, 2019 2:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

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Monday, March 18, 2019 2:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The DOJ has opened a criminal inquiry of ... Boeing? The FAA? Both?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, March 18, 2019 8:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Several FAA technical experts said in interviews that as certification proceeded, managers prodded them to speed the process. Development of the MAX was lagging nine months behind the rival Airbus A320neo. Time was of the essence for Boeing.

A former FAA safety engineer who was directly involved in certifying the MAX said that halfway through the certification process, “we were asked by management to re-evaluate what would be delegated. Management thought we had retained too much at the FAA. There was constant pressure to re-evaluate our initial decisions,” the former engineer said. “And even after we had reassessed it … there was continued discussion by management about delegating even more items down to the Boeing Company.”

Even the work that was retained, such as reviewing technical documents provided by Boeing, was sometimes curtailed.

“There wasn’t a complete and proper review of the documents,” the former engineer added. “Review was rushed to reach certain certification dates.”

When time was too short for FAA technical staff to complete a review, sometimes managers either signed off on the documents themselves or delegated their review back to Boeing.

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Wasn't the redesign and certification all begun in 2011? Remind me who was president then. Because I'm sure that president had to sign the budget or risk a shutdown.
Or are you not talking about the 2011-2016 period when the plane was being redesigned and put into service, and instead conflating two unrelated things?

Redesign started in 2011. First flew new design Feb 2016. Certified by Mar 2017.

I think everything which occurred from 2010 to Jan 2017 was blamed on Bush, as far as Libtards go.


From what I can tell, Trump's Budget request for FY 2019 was $17.5B for FAA.
FY2010 was $9.336B and FY2017 was $10.0B for FAA.
Bobo must have had some Racist Policies and Gender Studies which were more important than funding Aviation Safety. Maybe his superior levels of illiteracy rendered him believing Aviation was the Bird Exhibit at the Zoo.


So. That is flatline funding during Bobo's Regime, and a sharp uptick in funding from Trump. And yes, FY 2019 began at the beginning of Oct 2018, before any crash of 737 MAX.
And yes, FY2010 was Bobo and the Rock-The-Vote Democraps legislating in CY 2009.

BTW, the slang term for the 737 was the Baby Boeing, because it was so much smaller and kinda fatter than most Boeings. Before MAX, it sat quite low, and the bottom of the engine nacelles were like a flattened oval. Most commercial birds you could sneak under the belly depending upon load and fuel state, but you had to walk around any Baby that wasn't on jacks.


The MAX engines are more efficient and larger around, so the suspension and Landing Gear had to be larger, creating different aerodynamics, causing introduction of MCAS.

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Monday, March 18, 2019 8:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.



That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.

You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, March 18, 2019 11:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash
/

Here you are wrong again, as usual. 6ix made a correct statement.
Just like today's kids don't know how to do math, because their handheld device tells them what to think, today's Pilots do not have the experience of flying planes, enduring long boring flights while at the controls.
Perhaps 6ix did not intend this context, but his statement is accurate.

In the case of one sensor, the Pilot was able to have enough sense to know what corrective flight control to attempt, but the Flight Computer kept overriding the Pilot's efforts, because we gave the computer the authority to do everything for us. Even when it is wrong. Computers do not have a self-preservation instinct, but Pilots do.


That, and more, was my intent. Not only don't they get any experience, literally being able to doze off while "piloting" as if it were a night job at a hospital security desk, but the qualifications for such a job have much lower standards than they used to as well.

You see it everywhere. That's why companies can't wait to fire the old dogs, no matter how much experience and knowledge they had, when they can hire three new idiots out of college for what they were being paid.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit? My answers are for over 30 years ago, and are certainly germane today, but do not apply to Flight Engineers or Navigators.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2019 1:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?
I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Tuesday, March 19, 2019 7:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing:

For too many years, the FAA has not been provided budgets sufficient to ensure appropriate oversight of a rapidly growing global aviation industry. Staffing has not been adequate for FAA employees to oversee much of the critically important work of validating and approving aircraft certification. Instead, much of the work has been outsourced by designating aircraft manufacturer employees to do the work on behalf of the FAA. This, of course, has created inherent conflicts of interest, when employees working for the company whose products must be certified to meet safety standards are the ones doing much of the work of certifying them. There simply are not nearly enough FAA employees to do this important work in-house.

Boeing, in developing the 737 Max 8, obviously felt intense competitive pressure to get the new aircraft to market as quickly as possible. When flight testing revealed an issue with meeting the certification standards, they developed a fix, Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), but did not tell airline pilots about it. In mitigating one risk, they seem to have created another, greater risk.

After the crash of Lion Air 610 last October, it was apparent that this new risk needed to be effectively addressed. It has been reported that Boeing pushed back in discussions with the FAA about the extent of changes that would be required, and after the second crash, of Ethiopian 302, the Boeing CEO reached out to the U.S. President to try to keep the 737 Max 8 from being grounded in the U.S. The new fix still has not been fielded, nearly five months after Lion Air. It almost certainly could have been done sooner, and should have been.

www.marketwatch.com/story/capt-sully-sullenberger-where-boeing-and-the
-faa-went-wrong-in-this-ugly-saga-2019-03-19


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, March 19, 2019 10:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


the inet ate my post

Then I got looged out then the Youtube search got scrambled

This guy is usually funny, I recommend most of his videos (NSFW) for sheer hilarity; he uses a word which must be a Candianism: skookum (solid, well built). In this case I disagree with his conclusion, but he details wht the pilot would have needed to have done to save the airplane. NOTE: None of this is in the manual.

Also, when he finds out there was only one aoa sensor (additional sensors were offered as an "option") I think he'll change his mind and put much more blame on Boeing.


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Tuesday, March 19, 2019 11:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Would you like to guess what are the 2 most worn out spots for each seat location, total of 4 per cockpit?
I couldn't possibly guess, but I'd sure like to know!

On the ledge of the dash there are 2 wear spots about the width of shoes. This is where the Officer not in Command parks his feet. All other parts in the cockpit get replaced, upgraded, repaired. The dashboard does not get replaced.

The cockpit voice recorder usually has stuff like "No, that's a cow, and over there is Italy"
They are describing clouds, like kids. One of the critical obligations of Pilots remains to exercise visual scan and observation of the sky, and imagine how boring this must be to watch an empty sky for the entire duration of a flight. And your depth perception could go loopy.

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Wednesday, March 20, 2019 12:45 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I wonder what the voice recorder had when the guy in a lawn chair launched himself with weather balloons and drifted into the LAX flight path.

What are those ... weather balloons? Why are they all bunched ... wait ... ... do you see something hanging underneath ... ?

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Wednesday, March 20, 2019 8:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Pilot who hitched a ride saved Lion Air 737 a day before deadly crash

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation. The extra pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.

Most 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction are able to avert disaster, while others lose control of their planes and crash.

More at www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit
-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed


At the order of Congress, the FAA increasingly delegated some “nuts-and-bolts” certification responsibilities to manufacturers.

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) hasn’t had a proper top official since its last chief departed 14 months ago. That could soon change, with the White House saying yesterday that president Donald Trump will nominate former Delta Airlines executive Steve Dickson to lead the agency.

The FAA’s top three positions are all held by officials in an acting capacity. James Norton, founder of consultancy Play-Action Strategies, which advises companies on getting federal contracts, told Quartz earlier: “When you have interim or acting people for a long period of time, that puts everyone else in an interim role in that chain of command, adding that over two years into the Trump administration is “a long time” to not have permanent management in place at the FAA.

More at https://qz.com/1576630/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, March 22, 2019 2:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


In the aftermath of the Lion Air crash, Boeing pointed to long-established procedures that pilots could have used to handle a malfunction of the anti-stall system, regardless of whether the pilots knew MCAS existed.

That checklist tells pilots to switch off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches on the central console, and then to adjust the aircraft’s stabilizers manually using trim wheels.

The 737 MAX can fly without MCAS, so the feature was not considered “flight-critical” even though it has extraordinary power to steer the plane, said an industry expert with knowledge of the system who spoke on condition of anonymity. MCAS controls the large horizontal wing on the plane’s tail known as the stabilizer, while the pilot controls smaller flaps or “elevators” on the stabilizer.

Over several minutes, the stabilizer can shift position enough that the elevator controls can no longer counteract the downward direction of the plane, the source said.

“They gave more control power to the automation than to the pilot,” the source said of the MCAS design.

The Lion Air pilots flew for about five minutes by using the elevator to counteract the stabilizer every 15 or 20 seconds, said John Hansman, an aeronautics professor at MIT, based on readings from the flight data recorder. After that, the pilot tried pulling back hard on the controls.

“That’s what suggests that the crew didn’t understand the system. They thought they were shutting MCAS off and didn’t,” Hansman said. “Whereas any time during the entire sequence, they could have reached to the middle console and just shut it off.”

More at www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-controls-explainer/change
-to-737-max-controls-may-have-imperiled-planes-experts-say-idUSKCN1R322M


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, March 22, 2019 8:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Those required actions were in the AvE video.

Basically you have to shut off the power to the electronics. That supposes that you've adequately troubleshot the plane ... while falling like a stone from the sky... to realize that the trouble is in the software or electronics and not hydraulic or mechanical or even meteorological (microburst).

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Friday, March 22, 2019 9:26 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SECOND'S opinions are one article deep.

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Friday, March 22, 2019 10:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Less than one article. I swear to God he doesn't even read what he posts, just grabs the headline

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 6:20 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Those required actions were in the AvE video.

Basically you have to shut off the power to the electronics. That supposes that you've adequately troubleshot the plane ... while falling like a stone from the sky... to realize that the trouble is in the software or electronics and not hydraulic or mechanical or even meteorological (microburst).

Signym, basically you are full of shit. Boeing pointed to long-established procedures that pilots use. That checklist tells pilots to switch off the two stabilizer trim cutout switches on the central console and then to adjust the aircraft’s stabilizers manually using trim wheels. See the youtube video, below, starting at 2:55 minutes.

Hey, Signym and rue/1kiki, tell me that it is illegal for the FBI to investigate Boeing. You two have claimed it is illegal in the same way for the FBI to investigate Trump:

Criminal investigations into the U.S. aviation industry are rare — in part because of the longstanding belief that a civil-enforcement system better promotes candid reporting of concerns without fear of criminal repercussions.

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter. "The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

It has widened since then, The Associated Press reported this week, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people.

More at www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fbi-joining-criminal-in
vestigation-into-certification-of-boeing-737-max
/

Starting at 2:55 minutes: stabilizer malfunction on the simulator.



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:41 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Don't you herd cows old man? What do you know about planes?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 12:36 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


This picture is a trimmable horizontal stabilizer. The electric motors that move the stabilizer killed two plane loads of 737 Max 8 passengers. The pilots would be alive today if they had the good sense to turn off those motors with the readily available switches and then use muscle power to adjust the stabilizer.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Trimmable_horizonta
l_stabiliser.JPG


This is how it works:



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 1:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


All I know about planes is that if you don't get on one, you can't die in one.

Served me well for going on 40 years.


My condolences to anyone who didn't know this. Whether they died at the hands of Corporate Greed through putting out faulty aircrafts knowingly, or Corporate Greed through putting a bunch of idiots in control of the planes that weren't trained enough to fly them.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 1:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hey SECOND< you are, as usual, a lying sack of shit.

I never said it was "illegal" to investigate Trump. what WAS illegal was to withhold evidence from the judge granting the FISA warrant about the lack of credibility behind the "dossier" used to get the warrant. Another part that was illegal were the leaks about the "dossier", and other (baseless) anti-Trump allegations floating around. For all I know, the surveillance of Trump and dangling "oppo research" in front of his campaign team was a form of entrapment, ALSO illegal.

I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

If you weren't such a tool and if you stopped obssessing about Trump, Texas Republicans and the GOP in general to the exclusion of everything else (like, yanno, facts) you might stop being a lying sack of shit.

But why am I arguing with a religious person? You have your delusions and nothing will shake them from you.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 2:25 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 6:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by SECOND:
The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

Do you accept that the process found nothing to indict Trump on?

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 6:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well I noticed that SLOPPY SECONDS totally ignored the probable illegal aspects of the so- called "investigation" by the FBI.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 6:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well I noticed that SLOPPY SECONDS totally ignored the probable illegal aspects of the so- called "investigation" by the FBI.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

Of course.

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 7:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

Another example of a Troll. This Troll believes Citizens are not spoon-fed pablum from Prosecutors. That Grand Juries never indict an innocent victim. That Juries never convict an innocent victim. That Grand Juries won't Indict a ham sandwich. That no innocent victims have ever been imprisoned.

Beginning to blur the line between Troll and Tool.

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Saturday, March 23, 2019 9:15 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've also said it was SELECTIVE and MALICIOUS POLITICALLY-MOTIVATED prosecution, which - while not technically illegal, certainly tells me that the the FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA etc are NOT above politics, and reduces my confidence in these institutions greatly.

The grand jury and the ordinary jury exist to stop "selective and malicious politically-motivated prosecution" of Boeing or Trump. That is 2 dozen citizens volunteering to oversee prosecutors on each case. That's enough to keep it safe. Or do you think prosecutors need a third and fourth jury? A grander jury and the grandest jury in addition to the grand jury and the plain-vanilla jury?

Another example of a Troll. This Troll believes Citizens are not spoon-fed pablum from Prosecutors. That Grand Juries never indict an innocent victim. That Juries never convict an innocent victim. That Grand Juries won't Indict a ham sandwich. That no innocent victims have ever been imprisoned.

Beginning to blur the line between Troll and Tool.

Poor Donald Trump, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, and maybe Boeing. Innocent victims of Americans voluntarily serving on grand juries. Maybe Trump should decide who to prosecute? Then all grand juries become unnecessary, at least until a Democrat is elected President. Grand juries would then become necessary, again.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, March 28, 2019 7:00 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Under fire from lawmakers on Capitol Hill over the two deadly Boeing crashes, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration on Wednesday defended the agency’s practice of relying on aircraft makers to help certify their own planes for flight. He said the agency would need 10,000 more employees and an additional $1.8 billion a year to do all the work now done by designated employees of the companies it regulates. I suggest the FAA hire those 10,000 Boeing workers. That way the workers' loyalty will be to the FAA, not Boeing.

More at www.apnews.com/8ecbc753563643f6b4c818262285e02e

In Boeing, a lesson: even when the stakes are highest, companies can’t successfully regulate themselves. If any industry has a massive interest in successful self-regulation, it’s airplane builders — and it seems they can’t.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, March 28, 2019 7:41 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I remember the good old days when the Democrats were absolutely against alphabet agencies like the FBI. For, yanno, making people disappear and stuff like that.

Don't worry though. Just like they turned on Comey and are starting to turn on Mueller, it won't be long until the Democrats turn on the FBI again.

Unfortunately, at this point, that means very little.



MUELLER WAS THE FUCKING GUY WHO LIED TO CONGRESS ABOUT WMD'S IN IRAQ, DIPSHITS!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


Read a book.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, March 28, 2019 1:51 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I remember the good old days when the Democrats were absolutely against alphabet agencies like the FBI. For, yanno, making people disappear and stuff like that.

The Democrats were mad at J. Edgar Hoover, first Director of the FBI and a Republican, because he had his agents harass every civil rights leader, from Martin Luther King, Jr on down to the lowest civil rights marcher. Thankfully, fatso Hoover dropped dead from a heart attack in 1972 (we should be so lucky with even fatter Trump). American government has a functional problem with officials, judges, Senators, etc. staying too long and believing they own their job -- it is theirs for life. Hoover stayed 48 years as head of the FBI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover#Late_career_and_death

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, March 28, 2019 3:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Thursday, March 28, 2019 7:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.

Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.

Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.

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Friday, March 29, 2019 9:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.

Why?

Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.

Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.

Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.

I'd blame it on Republicans because Republicans in Congress did it. I have never, never, never seen in real life a Republican immediately and graciously take responsibility for what they did. Never. It is some weird mental quirk that a Republican needs to have facts shoved literally, not figuratively, down his throat and he is choking on them before he will admit to the facts existing. Have I made it clear that Trump supporters are committed to denying reality until it hurts?

In 2004, aviation unions and other critics offered dire warnings when the Federal Aviation Administration proposed expanding the role of aircraft manufacturers like Boeing in deciding whether their planes were safe to fly: It would be “reckless,” they wrote, would “lower the safety of the flying public” and would lead to “ever increasing air disaster.”

Fifteen years later, the FAA’s strategy of delegating much of its regulatory oversight to hundreds of employees at the companies it oversees may be too entrenched to reverse — even with the intense scrutiny on how Boeing’s troubled 737 MAX jet won approval to fly.

The FAA has been acting at the direction of Congress, amid pressure from industry players like Boeing to help them compete with foreign rivals by speeding up approvals of new aircraft. The agency maintains that it has used its cooperation with industry to make air travel safer. But government watchdogs have raised red flags about the FAA’s oversight of the program, which puts companies in charge of duties such as doing inspections and vetting engineering designs, with the agency’s supervision.

More at www.politico.com/story/2019/03/21/congress-faa-boeing-oversight-128790
2


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, March 29, 2019 12:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:


In a thread about the 737 max, whose f design began in 2011 smack dab in the middle of the Obama administration andwhose continuing reviews occurred mostly under Obama's reign, SECONDRATE brings up Trump.
Why?
Because SECONDRATE is an unhinged hater who should be ignored until he comes to his senses.- SIGNY

Somebody is overly optimistic about the future.
Push too hard, he'll blame it on Bush.- SIX

Blah blah blah ... In 2004 ...

AHA! SIX, you nailed it! SECOND is going back to the BUSH era.

Still keeping SECOND on ignore ....

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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