INSURANCE! by WISHIMAY

Another good article about our crap insurance game.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/12/28/up-75-without-med
icaid-working-poor-who-cant-job-related-insurance/75657202/

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Monday, December 28, 2015 10:02 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

FWIW I spent considerable time trying to find figures when UnitedHealth Group said it might drop out of Obamacare, as reported in November. Those figures were nowhere to be found despite an extremely diligent search. When information is not there that should be there, it makes me suspicious.

But in the information-free stories being told, there were prevarications on both sides of that issue (UH said it faced losses, but what it really faced was a reduction in profits; Obamacare could not show it performed as advertised).

The point of that post was that there was SUCH a backlog of demand for medical care that people were signing up, getting at least minimal care, then dropping their insurance. That put the squeeze on insurers to pay for care without the premiums, and when insurers dropped out left medical providers with unpaid bills. That was especially true in states that hadn't expanded Medicaid.

I don't think anyone realized just how dire the need was for medical care in this country. The insurance companies skimmed the most profitable off the top, there was a tattered safety net for the poorest, and then there was a vast, vast unknown and unaccounted unmet need in between.

I think this changes the calculation for every possible alternative. Because now, by the recent information, we know it's not starting on level ground, it's starting in a deep pit of unmet medical need which will have to be filled.

Wish, and everyone - I'm curious - what do you see as the answer?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 12:03 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

HI! Brenda

TRULY THANKS for replying. I'm going to keep my opinion private for now because I'm really hoping for many viewpoints; so I won't be replying right away.

Kiki

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 12:50 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Good article.

Wrong. It's a bad article deliberately misleading you. The Republican Party wrote it. The author of that Yahoo news about Obamacare, Ed Morrissey, is a mouthpiece for the Republican Party. Check wiki for Morrissey's connections to the Party. Why think he is not misleading you?

There is a new report from the Commonwealth Fund comparing Obamacare's actual performance with pre-implementation predictions.
www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/dec/cbo-crysta
l-ball-forecast-aca

The news is good that Obamacare is doing as predicted. Note the word “predicted”. Obamacare does not even come close to a complete solution, but, so what? Better than doing nothing as the Republicans wanted.

Premiums came in far below expectations; part, but only part, of this positive surprise was given back by 2016 premium hikes, with overall costs still looking very good.

Fewer people than expected signed up for the exchanges, but an important reason was that fewer employers than expected ended coverage and moved their employees into the individual market. Meanwhile, Medicaid expanded more than “predicted”, there's that word again — and the overall reduction in the number of uninsured was pretty much in line with forecasts.

One of the remarkable aspects of the politics of health reform is the way conservatives — even relatively mild, seemingly informed conservatives — have managed to keep believing that Obamacare is unraveling, despite the repeated failure of disaster predictions to come true. Part of the way this works is that captive media and the right’s pet “experts” hype every bit of bad news, but go silent when the news is good (and, often, when the bad news turns out to have been a false alarm.) How many will even hear about the news that enrollments are once again running above expectations, and the pool is getting younger?
www.vox.com/2015/12/22/10653600/obamacare-young-adult-enrollment

Last point. Healthcare in the USA has been in serious trouble since 1999. Take a look at this graph below.
www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/10/29/1518393112.full.pdf

More Americans are dead because of political decisions on how to run healthcare than all Americans who died on 9/11, Iraq War, and Afghanistan. And it began happening before there was Obamacare, not after. Republicans are doing everything they can to mislead you into believing America's problems originated with Obama and not with Republicans.
www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/lower-life-expectancy-white-ameri
cans-by-joseph-e--stiglitz-2015-12

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 2:25 AM

Yes, but you don't have the US to run it...into the ground.

I think our system is bloated and outdated.

In Japan, the doctors have one consultation room and one exam room. YOU come to him, limit your conversation, they write a prescription (a lot of the time herbal, because they are better trained in that) the whole thing lasts about five minutes (if it is complicated you may schedule more time) and costs a fraction because they don't have computer systems, five nurses, two receptionists, and a building the size of a grocery store to support and run.

E.R.s should be divided into urgent care, and EMERGENCY care.
Urgent care should be more like an after hours doctors office, since it is many people's ONLY source of medical care. If you get a urinary infection on Saturday afternoon, you shouldn't have to go to an EMERGENCY room just for a prescription, and neither should you have to wait four days until your doctor can see you. There is huge gaps there and always have been.

More, later, it's One in the morning and the words are fuzzy now...........

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:28 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Here, here.........now, if only we can find a way to stop Medicaid fraud, then we got something.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
I,speaking as a Canadian still think a medical system government run is the best way to go.

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 7:06 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Not to be negative, but what exactly makes this a good article?

It's like a car accident report on the news except missing are the details as to why this "accident" happened, so as to prevent future accidents.
For example:

"In 2014, premiums spiked, and then in 2015 they exploded again along with deductibles so high that many decided not to be insured at all. Over half of Obamacare’s co-ops collapsed this year, most of them this fall, and now the providers who took their clients may end up stuck with the bills."

Premiums spiked - why? No background or explanation. It's like when Ted Cruz or Trump speak and say "Obamacare is the worst, we're going to
replace it with something terrific" but no specifics and no details just
how they plan to do this. A good reporter makes a statement and then backs
it up with facts.

In 2015 they exploded again - please explain how this happened. Maybe if we
knew just how this came about we can fix it. Plus "Over half" of the co-ops
collapsed this year; again nothing to show just why that is. According to
Emily Atkin, of ThinkProgress.org, Kentucky's Kynect is the success story
that has been ignored by the national media. You see Kynect is really Obamacare in disguise (which the citizens of Kentucky prefer to Obamacare).
In year one of Kynect, the state signed up over 500,000 who didn't
previously have health care coverage. In an article in Fortune magazine, Nov. 21, 2013, by Jen Wieczner, they declared the health exchange a "success" story - "health insurance exchange in Kentucky, the only state
in the South that's operating it's own marketplace, known as Kynect."

Imagine Kentucky, a red state, "where anti-Obamacare fever runs high," is
actually enjoying the fruits of government welfare - OMG the sky is gonna
fall.

There, you see, I could do it too. There's more, but I gotta run. Still though, that article is incomplete. Mind you, it has all the catch phrases
and accusatory elements, but short on facts.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Good article.

I have been seeing things like what you see in the comments for months now...

Americans look more and more like Ameri-can'ts...

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-condition-gone-critical-life-113000762
.html

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:31 AM

rezident owtsidr

Second. Good take down! I wuz going to point out to Wishy that Morrissey iz a common propagandist, but you did your usual exellent work.

I wuz trying to find a Time Magazine article by Dr. Sanjay Gupta wich explained why helth coveraj iz not the same az auto insurans a few weeks ago during a debate with an irate anti-Obamite, but came up dry. Did all hiz stuff get deleted over that plajerizing scandal?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Wish, and everyone - I'm curious - what do you see as the answer?

Single payer. Thats wut it shoud hav been from the start, but the idiot assclown GoPs had enuf power to block it. Not only woud it get the gorram cattle rancher insurans companyz out uv the loop, but it woud take the burden off employerz. Just the paperwork involved now iz a huje parasitic waste on the entire economy.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:30 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

If you get a urinary infection on Saturday afternoon, you shouldn't have to go to an EMERGENCY room just for a prescription, and neither should you have to wait four days until your doctor can see you. There is huge gaps there and always have been.

There are many things needlessly wrong with healthcare in the USA but that is one thing for which there is an easy fix: keep Macrodantin in the medicine cabinet for just such an emergency. It's convenient. It's cheap. It won't spoil. Surely a physician can trust you to know when to open that pill bottle? www.rxlist.com/macrodantin-drug.htm

I assumed this is something that happened to you several times. Never mind if the UTI was just a hypothetical case used to demonstrate America's healthcare shortcomings.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 6:25 PM

rezident owtsidr

They arent Americanz, they are Republicanz!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 8:29 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
They arent Americanz, they are Republicanz!

Are you being judgmental? The GOP is aggressively following the American Dream of becoming wealthy. You have all heard of it, have you not? This is how the dream is reached:

Jeb Bush has a plan to increase the national debt by as much as 50 percent of GDP by 2036. The benefit of that increased debt all goes to the wealthy. You're probably not surprised, but the typical voter (GOP or DEM) will forever be without a clue about it. But they will be living in an America where getting healthcare is an unnecessary struggle. At least the wealthy will be able to afford “the best healthcare in the world”, as the GOP likes to say.

Bush's Tax Plan: www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=2000547
Trump's Tax Plan: www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=2000560

Too bad for the healthcare of ordinary people that the very richest Americans have financed a sophisticated and astonishingly effective apparatus for shielding their fortunes. Some call it the “income defense industry,” consisting of a high-priced phalanx of lawyers, estate planners, lobbyists and anti-tax activists who exploit and defend a dizzying array of tax maneuvers, virtually none of them available to taxpayers of more modest means.
www.nytimes.com/2015/12/30/business/economy/for-the-wealthiest-private
-tax-system-saves-them-billions.html

The ultra-wealthy will each “literally pay millions of dollars for these services,” said Jeffrey A. Winters, a political scientist at Northwestern University who studies economic elites, “and save in the tens or hundreds of millions in taxes,” thus making it possible to personally afford the best healthcare in the world. It is just too bad that ordinary people get destroyed, but what can the wealthy do about that when the wealthy have a overpowering need to spend all their attention on themselves?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:18 PM

rezident owtsidr

Its like a game uv Monopoly - at sum point, sumwun gets an insurmountable advantaj. Only in the real version, the game never endz and all the loozerz just haf to keep going thru the motionz uv 'playing'.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Its like a game uv Monopoly - at sum point, sumwun gets an insurmountable advantaj. Only in the real version, the game never endz and all the loozerz just haf to keep going thru the motionz uv 'playing'.

Whew, busy week. I just sat down and it's 11.

Ironically, I was going to say something pretty close to this. I'm going to call it "Mediocre Human Ethics Clause"

People here and elsewhere rail about Capitalism and For-profit Healthcare.
I think that thinking that our society in it's current state could be capable of anything else is naive. Being narcissistic is a necessary survival trait. It's how our young learn to stay alive, and it stays with us in in every person in some form. I think small changes could me made, but in the end... what do you really expect of a society led by sociopaths? To what extent are we Mediocre Humans capable of instituting or sustaining change for the better?
What is your expectation???

The weak are oppressed because it's EASY. They will ALWAYS be prey.

I pointed out these two articles because it irritates me that people pay tons of money to a system and can't even afford to use it, and also because people who make "too much" but don't qualify for help are left out in the cold and they shouldn't be. That poor kid taking care of his mom with the stroke...sad. And more typical than you know.

It should be changed. And as non-partisan as I try to be, it's not a stereotype that republicans see NO social responsibility in regards to healthcare. "It's a dog eat dog world and I pulled myself up by MY bootstraps blah blah blah..."

When I was a teen my parents didn't have health insurance. I was stung by a bee and suffered an allergic reaction for three days because they didn't want to take me to the doctor. I still remember mom bitching about the cost when we did go. I remember the pain twenty-five years later and will remember to the day I die. A bee sting is like a hundred when you are allergic...

By the time I was 16 I learned not to ask to go to the doctor. I ended up with the worst double double sinus infection the doc had ever seen in someone still standing.

Having been through that, it's unconscionable to me that other people would limit affordable healthcare for others, seeing as it's usually people who have little recourse. It's truly a form of societally approved torture.
But, if you haven't been through that you wouldn't understand why it's such a problem in others.

I GET IT. I WOULD CHANGE IT.

But there are so many things...

I had a conversation with my kid the other day... I said "communities are like little samples of the world. In every community there is someone who just wants to cause trouble, there is always the guy that is loud and stupid, the chick who steals everything not nailed down, ect. Well, the world will always be like that, too. There will always be the country that will rob everyone else, the country that is loud and stupid, and the country that will ALWAYS cause trouble."

Quite frankly I'm AMAZED at the NHS in the U.K. and that even E.R. care is FREE in Australia. I think we need to look at what was the catalyzing factor in those decisions and see if it could be applied here.

But, I have little faith in Americans. Everything here is so rooted in neurosis and partisanship and machismo it's near impossible to change anything for the better. Mediocre humans in a loud and stupid country...

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

Never mind if the UTI was just a hypothetical case used to demonstrate America's healthcare shortcomings.

Pretty much. But a lot of people don't know what a UTI is or if they have one, which is why they should have the test to make sure.

To those of us that have had a few, we already know.

I stopped using toilet paper and switched to wipes and haven't had one since, btw...

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:15 PM

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?id=PAYEMS,

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quite frankly I'm AMAZED at the NHS in the U.K. and that even E.R. care is FREE in Australia. I think we need to look at what was the catalyzing factor in those decisions and see if it could be applied here.

Australia and U.K. are fortunate not to have a catalytic poison called the Republican Party.

The Republicans have insisted non-stop that Obamacare was doing terrible things to the economy — that health reform was a job-killer. One of the dozens of House votes repealing Obamacare was called the Repealing the Job-Killing Health Care Law Act. www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr2/text

The fact that the private sector has added more than twice as many jobs under that job-killing Obama as it did under pre-crisis Bush, despite Obamacare, is important, but Republicans aren't changing their stories. If you want to live in a fairytale storybook written by Republicans, vote for them and their poison.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

The fact that the private sector has added more than twice as many jobs under that job-killing Obama as it did under pre-crisis Bush, despite Obamacare, is important, but Republicans aren't changing their stories. If you want to live in a fairytale storybook written by Republicans, vote for them and their poison.

Ok, one this isn't the thread to ague about jobs, and two FUCK OBAMA IN THE ASS WITH A RED HOT POKER. His BITCH OF A WIFE TOO.

They have both royally FUBARED with our life. My husband was a COAL MINER. Moochelle screwed over the kids lunches and we have to pack EVERY day, because the crap they replaced the meals with are EVEN WORSE than what they had.

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 1:05 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Ok, one this isn't the thread to ague about jobs, and two FUCK OBAMA IN THE ASS WITH A RED HOT POKER. His BITCH OF A WIFE TOO.

They have both royally FUBARED with our life. My husband was a COAL MINER. Moochelle screwed over the kids lunches and we have to pack EVERY day, because the crap they replaced the meals with are EVEN WORSE than what they had.

I can tell you why coal mines are firing coal miners: Texas natural gas.

Do you suppose Obama has the power to stop Texas shale gas? You'd look smarter to blame the Texas government, which just so happens to be controlled by, wait for it, Republicans, not Obama. But if you want to vote Republican, go ahead.
www.rrc.state.tx.us/all-news/122215a/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 2:39 PM

The coal industry was still going just fine, until they raised FINES in the mines and for emissions.
Natural Gas was cutting into the bottom line, but not enough to stop coal.

It WAS Obama. The "natural gas did it" was just spin.

And natural gas will be great for five-ten more years, until we have massive earthquakes and the crap they pump in fracking wells causes cancer clusters and then we'll be back to coal...just wait and see.

It's not any cleaner than coal, and with the scrubbers they have on plants now, most of the stuff you see is water vapor.

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 4:37 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
The coal industry was still going just fine, until they raised FINES in the mines and for emissions.
Natural Gas was cutting into the bottom line, but not enough to stop coal.

It WAS Obama. The "natural gas did it" was just spin.

What a load of bullshit. I looked those fines up. The coal industry was being sued by the EPA and the states before Obama was even in the Senate. And, by the way, Obama did not create the rules for the EPA. www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/EPA_Coal_Plant_Settlements

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

It's not any cleaner than coal, and with the scrubbers they have on plants now, most of the stuff you see is water vapor.

What? Another load of bullshit! In the first place, the EPA had to put a gun to the head of coal burners to get them to scrub their smokestacks. And that litigation in court started back when Obama was in high school with the New Source Review requirements of the Clean Air Act of 1977. These 50 year old power plants with NO scrubbers have finally rusted away in the 21st century and had to be replaced with new power plants that have scrubbers. Or burn natural gas and avoid the requirement to scrub the exhaust.

What isn't nitrogen in the exhaust from a coal power plant is mostly carbon dioxide, and a little water.
The exhaust from a gas power plant is mostly water and a little carbon dioxide.
Both exhausts look the same color, but are not the same. On the other hand, here is an optical illusion where surface colors A and B look different and yet are exactly the same. To test it out, just use your finger to cover the middle of the drawing, where the two squares meet.

Obama does not have the power you imagine or the GOP falsely claims (for political gain) Obama has to control coal burning through the EPA's rule making. The Texas Railroad Commission, which is completely under Republican control, most certainly does have the power to determine how much natural gas is produced in Texas, and indirectly, how much coal is burnt in the USA.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:40 PM

Ok, so TOTAL COINCIDENCE that the ass said this stuff and coal goes bye bye???

"We agreed to phase out (nearly $300 billion in global subsidies) for fossil fuels so that we can transition to a 21st century energy economy"

"We'll have to deal with the fact that many of our power plants are coal burning, and consider what investments we're willing to make in coal sequestration. If we make sure that the burdens and benefits of a strong environmental policy are evenly spread across the economy, then people will want to see us take on this problem in an aggressive way."

"Businesses don't own the sky, the public does, and if we want them to stop polluting it, we have to put a price on all pollution."

He led policy changes that flushed coal down the toilet. End of.
Guess fining people only matters when it's an unpopular energy source. I look forward to the day frackers are fined out of business.

I'd rather live near a coal plant than a fracker any day...

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Thursday, December 31, 2015 8:14 AM

rezident owtsidr

If youre looking for sumwun to blame, therez alwayz the prez!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Thursday, December 31, 2015 9:42 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Ok, so TOTAL COINCIDENCE that the ass said this stuff and coal goes bye bye???

"We agreed to phase out (nearly $300 billion in global subsidies) for fossil fuels so that we can transition to a 21st century energy economy"

You really think those coal burning power companies deserve to be subsidized with federal tax money so that they can continue delaying what was inevitable when the Clean Air Act was passed back in Obama's High School years? It would be cheaper for the Federal government to just pay coal miners like your husband to quit the business than to pay business to stay in the business of burning coal. But a Congressional bill paying your husband would have never gotten past the Republicans.

By the way, your Obama quote is from 2009. It is Congress that makes the changes, not Obama. If the Republicans wanted to save your husband's precious job, they could have done it under Bush or Reagan or Bush Jr by repealing the Clean Air Act.

The law was written so that rich people who owned coal burning power plants would be protected. Their investments in machinery would be fully depreciated before the plants need to clean up. Guess what? The machinery is worn out, it's finally time to replace it after many decades of delays written into the original law. The rich have a choice between coal or natural gas, and the rich are choosing gas. You blame Obama when you ought to blame the rich and all those Republican Presidents since the Clean Air Act was passed in 1970, 1977, 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_%28United_States%29

The same dynamic of protecting the rich also applies to Obamacare, which was delayed years for the benefit of the . . . RICH, a four letter word. But Democrats are only partly under the control of the rich, so change is not delayed forever as it would be by Republicans.

I just thought of a Firefly connection. In the 'Verse, lifespans average 120 years I read somewhere. In our world, the rich lifespans average 80 years. With an extra 40 years of life, the 'Verse rich would fight harder to hold onto their wealth than Earth rich, which probably explains why the people on the Rim feel sharply repressed by the rich of the central planets. The 'Verse rich will live to see any legislated change that happens in less than 100 years, therefore ever change must be delayed at least a century so that the 'Verse rich are not inconvenienced.

A toast to the New Year! Here's to the death of hope and our slow shuffle to oblivion!

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Thursday, December 31, 2015 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

By the way, your Obama quote is from 2009. It is Congress that makes the changes, not Obama. If the Republicans wanted to save your husband's precious job, they could have done it under Bush or Reagan or Bush Jr by repealing the Clean Air Act.

A toast to the New Year! Here's to the death of hope and our slow shuffle to oblivion!

You are a TOOL and there is nothing that can be done for you.

That you think that one species of politician is more or less to blame than any other mindless species is DELUSIONAL. They are ALL CORRUPT PRICKS, only Obama happens to be in charge of the other pricks at the moment. It's the same crap you see all over the internet and it's just as stupid the other 1000 times a day. Republicans, democrats... it's all the same circus for the somnambulant public.

Friggin' puppet.

I sincerely hope the government takes away your money and your job and leaves YOU with nothing, then don't come bitching. 'Cause you DESERVE IT.

Oh, wait.... I forgot to add something..

Blah blah blah blah nonsense fantasy story blah blah blah blah that I sit around playing make believe blah blah blah like a little girl in her diary blah blah blah because I think my imagination is special blah blah blah....

See how ridiculous it is when you try to fit your delusions into other conversations???? Oh, but you NEED ATTENTION, desperately...

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Friday, January 1, 2016 12:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Not only are some of the teeth in my mouth going to fall out of my head, but the fact that they still remain are a blight on the rest of the good ones.

That being said, Obamacare at least in our state, partially gets it right with dental care. We're good for 4 free tooth-pullings per year. I have 7 that need to go and I missed my window this year for that, so I guess we'll pull 4 now and hope they don't infect others before next year so we can pull out the other 3.

I'm only joking since we haven't had an emergency pull yet and since only 4 of them can be paid for with insurance I would do the Dentist's job for him and pull the 2 that are wobbly as hell myself and the next wobblyest before I went for the grand pulling.

THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A SECOND........

Think about how EASY a dentist's job is.

Think about how much school they must pay for. Then think about how much money they make.

In reality, they're really nothing more than glorified hairstylists.

If federal mandates didn't require so many years of BULLSHIT expensive school after college, we'd have a flood of Dentist wannabes and getting your mouth fixed would be priced reasonably.

My teeth are actually awesome. I never once had a cavity. It just turns out that my jawbones under the gums decided to call it quits years before my pre-cancer-ridden-smokers lungs did or my liver decided to quit on me.

Eyecare and Toothcare, you're on your own....

If you can't afford it, learn to read brail and eat baby food.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, January 1, 2016 8:22 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

You are a TOOL and there is nothing that can be done for you.

That you think that one species of politician is more or less to blame than any other mindless species is DELUSIONAL. They are ALL CORRUPT PRICKS, only Obama happens to be in charge of the other pricks at the moment. It's the same crap you see all over the internet and it's just as stupid the other 1000 times a day. Republicans, democrats... it's all the same circus for the somnambulant public.

Friggin' puppet.

Yours is just a longer version of the bitter claims from my sisters that Democrats are no better than Republicans and all politicians are the same. What follows from those sour-tasting untruths is they don't vote, they're depressed, they are certain that only Jehovah can fix their problems by destroying America in Armageddon. They look forward to resurrection in a New World where all their problems will miraculously go away. Isn't that wonderful? Except I can sense a flaw or two in their hopes and dreams. But at least they now have some health insurance (no dental or optometry) and Jehovah was not involved.

My sisters' strident insistence that Democratic politicians are as bad or worse than Republicans and that voting is a waste of time has been self-defeating for both of them. I think the psychology works the same with others. Maybe even you. Another toast to the New Year: Never change your mind! No one can make you believe anything you don't want to believe!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I sincerely hope the government takes away your money and your job and leaves YOU with nothing, then don't come bitching. 'Cause you DESERVE IT.

Oh, wait.... I forgot to add something..

I spent 2 years cleaning houses. What I saw makes me never want to be rich. --
www.vox.com/2015/7/16/8961799/housekeeper-job-clients

Every time an employer hires anyone at less than a living wage, or at part-time hours, it is a deliberate choice. Employers make it because they can, because they can get away with it. Because it's legal to pay a wage that I can't live on even working 40 hours a week. It's legal to use scheduling software to justify cutting hours to 20 a week. To pay certain employees half of the minimum wage and expect patrons to make up for it with tips. It's legal to jigger schedules so that employees must make last-minute arrangements for child care or transportation. It's legal to force employees to either cancel plans or lose their jobs. --
www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8845881/food-stamps

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Friday, January 1, 2016 4:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
What follows from those sour-tasting untruths is they don't vote, they're depressed, they are certain that only Jehovah can fix their problems by destroying America in Armageddon.

Well, we come from the same brand of nuts, but sitting around being depressed about not being able to change things is universal.

I desire not to rule others, nor be ruled. Religion has nothing to do with it. Thinking that voting makes a difference in anything is delusional. It's just as passive as doing NOTHING. Voting to be ruled by another set of humans is just as flawed as allowing the same set of humans to rule. And we know NOTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE PEOPLE OFFERING TO RULE OR THEIR MOTIVATIONS.
They pander to everyone just to get the job. It's all a sick game.

I don't believe humanity can be "fixed" in my lifetime, or any other fictional lifetimes.

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Saturday, January 2, 2016 7:40 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quite frankly I'm AMAZED at the NHS in the U.K. and that even E.R. care is FREE in Australia. I think we need to look at what was the catalyzing factor in those decisions and see if it could be applied here.

It's not so amazing. It's just government funded. Purely.

The system isn't perfect here, but most of us would rather our system of imperfect public healthcare than....whatever it is in the US that you have...never really understood it.

And your earlier point about your beesting illustrates why public healthcare has such an important role in preventative care, which lowers the cost overall.

Our local doctors provide all health care to children free of charge, everything. They do it so parents will go with concerns and queries and not stay at home waiting for it to be bad enough to have to go.

Yep, 2 things I'll never understand about the US, your inability to provide decent universal healthcare and implement a few gun controls...I mean is it really too much to ask for background checks and to not sell military style weaponry to the masses???

Always will be confused about these things.

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Saturday, January 2, 2016 8:05 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Thinking that voting makes a difference in anything is delusional. It's just as passive as doing NOTHING.

I learn all my history from movies. Have you heard of the movie Suffragette (2015)? Some women, a tiny minority, thought voting was worthwhile. Were they wrong to want the right to vote? Was the vast majority of women right about suffrage for women not being worth fighting for? Can you guess my opinion?
www.metacritic.com/movie/suffragette

Sometimes it takes a near Armageddon to get politicians to do what should have been done long ago. The Civil Rights Act was like that. There had to be riots and neighborhoods burning before a century of political inertia would be overcome.

The Civil War was as close as the USA ever came to a real Armageddon. It took years and a near Armageddon to convince Lincoln enough to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln's only mission at the start of the war was to maintain the Union. The Proclamation made freeing the slaves an explicit goal of the Union war effort. Establishing the abolition of slavery as one of the two primary war goals served to deter intervention by Britain and France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Proclamation

You know I got this idea from the movie Lincoln (2012), but the historical records back up that idea of Lincoln caving into political pressure before he'd do one damn thing about slavery. I really do learn all my history from movies. Because the inertia to do nothing is built into American politics, there has to be enormous pressure to get even conscientious and saintly politicians, like Lincoln, with the best hearts to make even the most obvious improvements.

Are you and your spouse paid too much? Is Obama wrong to talk about raising the minimum wage to a living wage? Are Republicans right to talk about lowering the minimum wage, even discontinue the minimum wage? Is Obama wrong to interfere with business and shake the very foundations that capitalism is built upon cheap and plentiful labor? Can you guess which side I think is reasonable and wise? Here is the White House on minimum wage: www.whitehouse.gov/raise-the-wage

Is Obamacare worthless, as Republicans claim? Can you guess what I think of the truthfulness and accuracy of Republicans' arguments and editorials? http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-condition-gone-critical-life-113000762
.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, January 2, 2016 9:58 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

And we know NOTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE PEOPLE OFFERING TO RULE OR THEIR MOTIVATIONS.

We can know. We just refuse to understand the obvious.

Wealth can be bad for your soul. That’s not just a hoary piece of folk wisdom; it’s a conclusion from serious social science, confirmed by statistical analysis and experiment. The affluent are, on average, less likely to exhibit empathy, less likely to respect norms and even laws, more likely to cheat, than those occupying lower rungs on the economic ladder.
http://healthland.time.com/2013/08/20/wealthy-selfies-how-being-rich-i
ncreases-narcissism/

And it’s obvious, even if we don’t have statistical confirmation, that extreme wealth can do extreme spiritual damage. Take someone whose personality might have been merely disagreeable under normal circumstances, and give him the kind of wealth that lets him surround himself with sycophants and usually get whatever he wants. It’s not hard to see how he could become almost pathologically self-regarding and unconcerned with others.

So what happens to a nation that gives ever-growing political power to the superrich?

Politics include a disproportionate number of spoiled egomaniacs. Mr. Trump isn’t the only awesomely self-centered billionaire playing an outsized role in the 2016 campaign. More names are included in the story at www.nytimes.com/2016/01/01/opinion/privilege-pathology-and-power.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 10:15 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:

You and me, Magon on their healthcare. I've never understood it.

Understand that it's always about money in the USA.

The majority of voting Americans will not pay their money to solve other people's health problems. Sometimes they won't even pay to solve their own problems, even when it is a life or death decision. There was a vote in Gearhart Oregon for the Seaside School district on a tax increase for residents amounting to two dollars and sixteen cents per thousand dollars of property value. The measure failed by sixty-two percent. What problem would this tax solve? Earthquake in the future followed by tsunami destroying a school. A new school needs to be built on higher ground or else all their children die! I guess not all the voters have children in school so let 'em die.

At an elementary school in the community of Gearhart, the children will be trapped. They can’t make it out from that school. They have no place to go. On one side lies the ocean; on the other, a wide, roadless bog. When the tsunami comes, the only place to go in Gearhart is a small ridge just behind the school. At its tallest, it is forty-five feet high—lower than the expected wave in a full-margin earthquake. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one

All day long, just out of sight, the ocean rises up and collapses onto the shore at Seaside, Oregon. Eighty miles farther out, ten thousand feet below the surface of the sea, the hand of a geological clock is somewhere in its slow sweep. All across the region, seismologists are looking at their watches, wondering how long we have, and what we will do, before geological time catches up to our own.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 5:19 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wish

So I looked up the quotes to see them in context. But before I post that, I feel the need to point out that "fossil fuels" means coal AND oil AND natural gas. Because all those are fuels created from the fossils of long-dead plants, hence, "fossil" "fuels".

We agreed to phase out (nearly $300 billion in global subsidies) for fossil fuels so that we can transition to a 21st century energy economy
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-g20-clos
ing-press-conference (2009)
This is in regards to 'clean energy', but also, in context, to renewables, and not directed at coal. And renewables have not threatened coal that I'm aware of.

We'll have to deal with the fact that many of our power plants are coal burning, and consider what investments we're willing to make in coal sequestration. If we make sure that the burdens and benefits of a strong environmental policy are evenly spread across the economy, then people will want to see us take on this problem in an aggressive way.
http://grist.org/article/obama/
(2007 - while Obama was a Senator)
In this interview, Obama spent a CONSIDERABLE portion of time stressing the importance of coal as a resource and the need to further clean-coal technologies of many kinds - to enable the US to have an abundant and cheap source of energy, to wean us off of imported oil, and to keep us on the leading edge of clean-coal technology.
Regarding old, dirty coal-burning electric power plants specifically - that handwriting was on the wall decades ago. The power producers did their best, and for decades quite successfully so, to stave off the need to clean them up. But in the end rather than invest, they squeezed every last dime out of them they could, then either shuttered them or converted them to nat-gas. That is definitely NOT on Obama's plate.

Businesses don't own the sky, the public does, and if we want them to stop polluting it, we have to put a price on all pollution.
http://grist.org/article/obamas-speech/ (2007 - while Obama was a Senator)
This was about renewables, and global warming.

A fracked gas field plays out in just a few short years (production drops 90% in 5 years maximum), meaning that producers need to borrow more money to start a new field. If anything's to blame it's the low interest-rate policy of The Fed, which is the only thing keeping frackers in business. OTOH the oil price war started by Saudi Arabia (arguably at the insistence of the US as an anti-Russian move; or by Saudi Arabia as an anti-fracking move); and the GLUT of oil held in tankers in transit while producers wait for a better price, may put pressure on both coal and fracked nat-gas.

FWIW I came from an old steel town. In its heyday, during my early childhood, out of a total city and county population of 500,000 the steel industry alone employed 90,000 people. Then when you consider all the ancillary jobs - transportation, small manufacturing, die-making, auto parts and assembly - etc etc etc - steel was the lifeblood of the economy. By the time I was entering college steel employed around 6,000 out of a population of 900,000; by the time I graduated, zero.

Which president was I supposed to blame? It's a question I never asked myself.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 5:46 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

But, I have little faith in Americans. Everything here is so rooted in neurosis and partisanship and machismo it's near impossible to change anything for the better. Mediocre humans in a loud and stupid country...

I read that as - we get the governments we deserve.

They are ALL CORRUPT PRICKS

And this is one of the ways we so richly deserve the government we have. Aside from us collectively thinking we're the best and can do anything anywhere we want, and the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to be poor, and capitalism is a law of nature like gravity, and being an ignorant ass means you're honest while being educated means you're an effete snob, and ...

... OK, ASIDE from all that, there ARE some people in government who ARE better than others. And we need to recognize that with our votes. If we don't, we'll keep on doing what we've always been doing, and we'll keep on getting what we've always been getting. And how's that been working out for 'ya?

And we know NOTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE PEOPLE OFFERING TO RULE OR THEIR MOTIVATIONS.
They pander to everyone just to get the job. It's all a sick game.

I still believe it's because we have a form of government where we can't vote it out of office in between scheduled elections - unlike many other democracies. So, we vote for people based on their promises. But our NEXT vote had better be based on their performance. It's the only feedback we have on the system. Which means, we have to be savvy and diligent and persistent citizens.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 7:58 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Back to Obamacare.

I just wanted to say that all the arguments for and against were like the blind men describing the elephant. They didn't address the points the others were making.
It can be and is true that many providers bailed out of the exchanges, while at the same time it's also true Obamacare reduced the number of uninsured. It can be and is true premiums and deductibles have gone up even more that the year before it came into effect rather than reducing them as predicted, while at the same time it's also true Obamacare cost the government about what it expected to pay.

The arguments on both sides neither support nor refute each other. They don't address each other.

As I mentioned earlier, I spent considerable time trying to find comprehensive 'bottom line' figures to see if Obamacare was an overall positive or negative, and I GUARANTEE the government has worked those out. But only the rosiest, most positive figures were available, which makes me suspect there are figures that are not so good.

As best as I can tell, Obamacare may be overall a small bit better than no Obamacare - but just barely.

But it's not what people NEED. People need a comprehensive single-payer system that covers health, eye, dental, mental/ addiction - prenatal, preventative, emergency, catastrophic, experimental, rehabilitation, long-term and palliative care.

Now, what one fact the naysayer argument brought out - the fact that people were signing up, getting minimal care for their unaddressed problem, then dropping out of insurance - told me (anyway) was that there's a deep, deep pit of unmet medical need to be filled. That will not come cheap, no matter what system is put in place. And I think the history of the countries that historically recently put single-payer into place - Canada comes to mind - could tell us what happened. Was there a large surge of medical costs? How big was it? What was it for? How long did it last before it leveled out? And what were the outcomes of all that increased care? (There once was a surgeon's strike for better pay in the NE US. And though surgeons would tell you they're vital to the healthcare system, oddly enough, the longer the strike lasted the lower the death rate was in certain sub-populations - for example in children getting tonsillectomies and adenoidectomies, and in women getting hysterectomies.)

So while I agree that single payer is the only real answer, I also think its implications aren't straightforward.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 8:11 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

I still believe it's because we have a form of government where we can't vote it out of office in between scheduled elections - unlike many other democracies. So, we vote for people based on their promises. But our NEXT vote had better be based on their performance. It's the only feedback we have on the system. Which means, we have to be savvy and diligent and persistent citizens.

Republicans screwed America in 2008. Voters who were NOT savvy and NOT diligent and NOT persistent citizens noticed, but did it change their minds? Was there a tremendous shift in the election of 2008? No. Democrats increased by 0.9% over 2006 in the House to 53.2%. Obama received 52.9%. In 2012 Obama received 51.1%. I hope the Republicans never again do as poor a job of governing as they did in 2008. But as badly as Republicans performed, only a few percent of voters changed their minds about Republicans.

I'm thinking that "we have to be savvy and diligent and persistent citizens" will never happen in American politics. What politics really could use is a voter turnout larger than 54.87 Percent of Voting Age Population casting a vote. It is far easier to pass a single law requiring people to vote than hoping for savvy, diligent and persistent citizens to materialize out of nowhere.

Compulsory voting in Australia:
Although small, the A$20 (about $18, £12) fine is enough to drive voters to the polls in substantially greater numbers than countries with voluntary voting.
www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23810381
www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm

If you look at the international experience, in non-compulsory voting systems, the people who don't vote are the poor. Those are exactly the people who should be voting.

The average Australian is doing better than the average American.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/11/news/economy/middle-class-wealth/

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 9:14 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well - we need to stop keeping voters OUT of the polling booth due to being poor and or non-white. And make election day a national holiday so everyone can get paid time to vote. And stop gerrymandering so peoples' votes don't count. And on top of that, yeah, compulsory voting too.

But I think in a system where you can be voted out at any time, it makes you more cautious about the promises you'll make during your campaigns, and more motivated to keep those promises once you're in. Because the voters are looking over your shoulder the entire time and grading you. And you can be sent packing the minute voter sentiment turns against you.

Our system virtually guarantees voters who are cynical and disaffected. They know that politicians will make a lot of promises - then do everything but, once elected. And they can't help but think that the next crop is just as bad, if not worse, than the one they already have. That's why only persistence pays off - persistently rewarding the better ones and rolling the dice again on the worse ones.

Voters who were NOT savvy and NOT diligent and NOT persistent citizens noticed ... I disagree. People knew something was up - but wasn't it just Bear Stearns? And then there was something about AIG? Maybe Detroit? There was some kind of bailout, or something. Who, when, what, how much - was very much intentionally minimized. What caused it - oh, a hand-waving on 'bad mortgages' - those bad greedy people, going for mortgages they couldn't afford. Banks, kind of innocent victims of a system they didn't control. It wasn't political, it was, oh, a shortcoming of the system. And there was CERTAINLY no political fallout. Even Obama was in on it, refusing to investigate to see if there were prosecutable offenses. People knew things went south - ish, they didn't connect it with republicans. In fact, the spin was so fast and strong, you'd think it was the democrat's fault.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 9:41 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

But I think in a system where you can be voted out at any time, it makes you more cautious about the promises you'll make during your campaigns, and more motivated to keep those promises once you're in. Because the voters are looking over your shoulder the entire time and grading you. And you can be sent packing the minute voter sentiment turns against you.

Our system virtually guarantees voters who are cynical and disaffected. They know that politicians will make a lot of promises - then do everything but, once elected. And they can't help but think that the next crop is just as bad, if not worse, than the one they already have. That's why only persistence pays off - persistently rewarding the better ones and rolling the dice again on the worse ones.

A system where politician can be voted out of office at any time? That would take a Constitutional Convention. I don't think an amendment will cover it. On the other hand, a $20 fine for not voting could be an ordinary law. Southerners would fight it as viciously as they fought against limiting the rights of slave-owners. I think that would be a powerful indicator of the horrifying consequences of such a small fine becoming law.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 9:45 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"That would take a Constitutional Convention. I don't think an amendment will cover it. On the other hand, a $20 fine for not voting could be an ordinary law."

True.

Would you also go for mandatory paid time off to vote?
... Too much?

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 10:15 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Would you also go for mandatory paid time off to vote?
... Too much?

Too much. A $20 fine or even a $2 fine would be demagogued as unAmerican. Are you trying to make it impossible for even this tiny change to become law? The more conditions you add, the less likely that even Democrats would support it. Absolutely no Republicans support that idea. It would be harder to get passed than Obamacare.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 10:33 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I THINK I'm glad I asked.

I was just wondering how far you thought those changes could go.

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Sunday, January 3, 2016 11:22 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I THINK I'm glad I asked. I was just wondering how far you thought those changes could go.

The 2014 turnout was 36%. www.electproject.org/2014g

I'll make a prediction that will never be proved because compulsory voting will never happen in America, unlike Australia. Should turnout double to 72%, American politicians would behave very different than today. I think it is far more practical and easy to improve American politicians' behavior by doubling the voter turnout than by doubling the number of hours each voter paid attention to politicians' behavior.
www.aec.gov.au/Voting/Compulsory_Voting.htm

Congress would reflect more accurately the "will of the electorate".
Government must consider the total electorate in policy formulation and management.
The legitimacy of a government formed by a voluntary turnout is questioned when 21% of the total possible electorate delivered 55% of the seats in the House of Representatives.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, January 4, 2016 9:10 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

This morning I read the graphs that show Republicans in Congress have steadily gotten crazier (“more conservative” is the polite term used in the graphs). Democrats have maintained their sanity. It's on the graph so it has to be true!
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/04/academics-and-politics/

There are more graphs showing that Congress votes on race related issues now largely takes place along the liberal-conservative dimension and the old split in the Democratic Party between North and South has largely disappeared. It just so happens that that single dimension now accounts for almost everything Congress does -- about 93 percent of roll call voting choices in the 113th House and Senate.
http://voteview.com/Political_Polarization_2014.htm

And finally there is a scholarly paper explaining why life is hard for WishIMay and why politics won't respond to Wish's wishes. The paper is “Why Hasn’t Democracy Slowed Rising Inequality?”
http://voteview.com/pdf/jep_BMPR.pdf

So you don't have to read the paper, I'll summarize: The wealthy top 1% have strongly turned against redistribution. Congress follows the top 1% because the bottom 50% can't be bothered to vote or read the paper.

The bottom 50% mantra is "I hate politics!" I don't think that hatred works to the advantage of the 50%. I could find a scholarly paper about that, but why bother? The bottom 50% won't read it and believe it and then vote.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 1:23 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Looking at your graph, I see that many countries without compulsory voting have median citizens who are doing better than the median American. And what the US DOES have is a very high average (where small numbers of extreme values can change the average) compared to the median, ie it has a very high wealth gap.

So, I think our political system is working as intended. The US was founded by a small number of economic elites who claimed that all men were created equal - if you were white, male, of a certain age, and a property owner. Equality to everyone else was granted only grudgingly, and to this day the power to elect the president is only ceremonial. And the ability to unseat those in power, metered out very carefully over time.

So, I'm not saying your idea won't work.

What I am saying is the cynicism, apathy and powerlessness of the US voter isn't due to some internal flaw in our collective psyche, at least not entirely. It's a consequence of our fucked-up system (reproduced somewhat in the EU structure, and look how well it's doing running over ITS members - how well it learned in such a short time!)

Now, getting a better result out of our system - maybe fining people for not voting will do it.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 5:39 PM

Have you people even THOUGHT for a second what you are saying?

One out of every four people think the SUN goes around the Earth. The same number of people also have a mental illness...

The average IQ of Americans is only 98. That means about a quarter of our population probably doesn't know how to wipe their own ass.

14% can't read, and while that doesn't necessarily translate to stupidity, makes it kinda hard to require voting.

11% have or will be in a state or federal prison at some point in their lives.

20% can't or don't use internet.

Yes, I want those people to get out there and vote! Do their part and contribute to the status quo...

Just face it, the system works for the wealthy and will continue to do so.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 6:58 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

One out of every four people think the SUN goes around the Earth.

July 6, 1999
Four out of Five Americans Know Earth Revolves Around Sun
Probing a more universal measure of knowledge, Gallup also asked the following basic science question, which has been used to indicate the level of public knowledge in two European countries in recent years: "As far as you know, does the earth revolve around the sun or does the sun revolve around the earth?" In the new poll, about four out of five Americans (79%) correctly respond that the earth revolves around the sun, while 18% say it is the other way around. These results are comparable to those found in Germany when a similar question was asked there in 1996; in response to that poll, 74% of Germans gave the correct answer, while 16% thought the sun revolved around the earth, and 10% said they didn't know. When the question was asked in Great Britain that same year, 67% answered correctly, 19% answered incorrectly, and 14% didn't know.

Published February 14, 2014
To the question "Does the Earth go around the Sun, or does the Sun go around the Earth," 26 percent of those surveyed answered incorrectly.
Only 66 percent of people in a 2005 European Union poll answered the basic astronomy question correctly.

One out of every four people ... also have a mental illness...
An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older or about one in four adults suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.
the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 who suffer from a serious mental illness.
http://strategy.mentalhealthcommission.ca/the-facts/#sthash.PS2O8f1K.d
puf
In any given year, one in five people in Canada experiences a mental health problem or illness
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-mental-illness-idUSTRE7832JJ2
0110904
Nearly 40 percent of Europeans suffer mental illness

The average IQ of Americans is only 98.
An IQ of 100 is the definition of an average IQ. That most Americans are average is unremarkable
That means about a quarter of our population probably doesn't know how to wipe their own ass.
That statement is CLEARLY wrong. I suggest you check your agendas at the door if you're trying to present facts.
http://www.minddisorders.com/Kau-Nu/Mental-retardation.html#ixzz3wJrtf
4ad
The prevalence of mental retardation in North America ... is thought to be between 1%–3% ... (Of that population) Only 1–2% of the mentally retarded population is classified as profoundly retarded. Profoundly retarded individuals have IQ scores under 20–25. They may be able to develop basic self-care and communication skills with appropriate support and training.

14% can't read, and while that doesn't necessarily translate to stupidity, makes it kinda hard to require voting.
This percentage hasn't changed in 10 years, despite 'no child left behind'. There is more illiteracy in states with higher numbers of non-English speaking immigrants. Illiteracy doesn't seem to be a function of English not being phonetic.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-american-adults-who-cant-read/
Percent of U.S. adults who can’t read (below a basic level) 14 %
Research Date: December 2nd, 2015
http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/adult_literacy/illiterate_adults_in_en
gland
Around 16 per cent, or 5.2 million adults in England, can be described as "functionally illiterate".
http://www.readspeaker.com/functional-illiteracy-in-france-a-case-stud
y/
9% of the population aged 18 to 65 living in France and having received schooling in France are in situation of functional illiteracy.
http://www.grundbildung-und-beruf.info/et_dynamic/page_files/267_datei
.pdf?1334836254
France has an illiteracy rate (15%) (functional illiteracy in the total population)

11% have or will be in a state or federal prison at some point in their lives.
Thanks in part to our ridiculous war on drugs, and war on poor people of color.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs#sthash.WCAQsc4Y.dpuf
Almost 16% of state prisoners were convicted drug offenders ...
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offenses.jsp
Drug Offenses (federal prisons) 46.6%

20% can't or don't use internet.
The US lags much of the world in Internet availability, speed, and cost. Welcome to the bastion of capitalism, where we get its full range of benefits.

Just face it, the system works for the wealthy and will continue to do so.

The US is no worse - and somewhat better than - the rest of the world in your statistics, except incarceration rate and internet access. But remember, many people use the internet to reinforce their beliefs rather than learn new things, so that might not be a major factor. And yet - those other countries seem to come to better political decisions than we do.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 8:20 PM

I weren't even comparing US to THEM.
It was a statement about our environment.

You wanna motivate people you think are capable of so much more than I think they aren't, you go right on ahead with that. Good Luck.

P.s., the "wiping the ass thing" wasn't LITERAL.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 9:08 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I know you weren't comparing, but you seemed to be making cause/ effect statements. The US works for the wealthy and always will up because its people are SO messed up because ... they're SO ignorant ... SO mentally ill ... SO stupid ... SO illiterate ... SO lawbreaking ... SO internet-isolated ...

... when, for the most part, in those measures, the US people are no worse than the British, or the French, or the people of the combined EU.

Maybe our system sucks more. Maybe it takes people who aren't similar to those counterparts, but better than them, or much better than them. But it's not that the people are so much worse.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 10:49 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Have you people even THOUGHT for a second what you are saying?

Yes, I want those people to get out there and vote! Do their part and contribute to the status quo...

Your vote doesn't count for much, but imagine if 50,000,000 WishIMays vote. You could have exactly the same politicians that you have now, and yet those politicians will govern differently because there are 50,000,000 more people that the politicians need to keep in mind. That's why George Washington wasn't a supporter of the vote for women. George had enough problems pleasing rich men with property. He didn't want more headaches from women and men without property. That's also why George didn't include slaves as voters, despite the 3/5 compromise assigned to each slave in Washington's Constitution. George could punish his slaves however he pleased so long as his slaves could not vote. If you want to be no better than George's slaves, then have all your family, neighbors, co-workers, and the other 50,000,000 non-voters continue not voting for the rest of their lives. Every goddamn election they don't vote in, they have declared that their wishes can be completely ignored by the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise

To clear up two misconceptions many non-voters have: politicians know who voted (your name, address, Texas drivers license number, and most important, which candidates you gave money to and how much ) and in what elections you voted. The only secret the politicians don't know is who you voted for. The other misconception is thinking that being a citizen makes you important to the government. It does not. If you want to be taken seriously you need to be on the list of people who voted. People who register to vote and don't are morons. People who don't even register do not exist in the mind of a politician. Those people are nonpersons to politicians. Just remember how badly George Washington could treat his slaves because they did not vote, as George arranged for his convenience in the Constitution of 1787.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

Your vote doesn't count for much, but imagine if 50,000,000 WishIMays vote. You could have exactly the same politicians that you have now, and yet those politicians will govern differently because there are 50,000,000 more people that the politicians need to keep in mind.

Oh, honny, all I have to do is take one step outside my front door to know that there probably isn't another like me on the entire planet...Sure, you could find someone who LOOKS like me, and maybe even has the same health problems, but I've never found ANYONE that I come even 50% close to on ideologies.

And keep drinking dat floride...you really do believe that politicians represent the PEOPLE and not da moneys and their OWN AGENDAS. How quaint.

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Monday, January 4, 2016 11:46 PM