REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Syria and Ukraine, Catalan and Kurdistan: what do they have in common?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, June 2, 2018 15:53
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Monday, October 2, 2017 3:22 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

You could make the same case against Kiev due to its treatment of ethnic Russians. But you won't, because - well - you're a twisted sociopathic fuck.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 2, 2017 8:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


KRAPO, I'll get to the rest or your post later, but this is for starters ...

Quote:

But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.- SIGNY

I explained clearly why I support Kosovo's secession (and re-posted that explanation multiple times) so there's no need to put words in my mouth. Here it is for a 4th time:

KPO (2014):
"Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such principles as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way.

In the case of Kosovo Crimea ethnic Serbs Ukrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia Ukraine at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian Russian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman Russian control.

But the key factor in support for Kosovan Crimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnic Albanian Russian-speaking population in the 90's immediately after the coup. The UN ruled that Serbia coup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans [sic] Crimeans to live again under Serbian Ukrainian rule, given the way the Serbian Ukrainian government treated them in the 1990s."



See?

You pretend to take a balanced, reasoned view of secession, but you come down on the anti-Russian side every time.

So if you want to do a reasoned, point-to-point comparison, how about starting with the points that you made about Kosovo?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 2, 2017 9:07 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

You could make the same case against Kiev due to its treatment of ethnic Russians.


When you live in the Russian propaganda bubble, as you do, you can "make a case" for all sorts of fantastical bullshit that has no basis in reality.

But well done for engaging with my actual words on the subject! Siggy, you could learn something from your rabid ideological bosom-buddy.


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, October 2, 2017 9:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

But well done for engaging with my actual words on the subject! Siggy, you could learn something from your rabid ideological bosom-buddy.
So, are you ready to expand on why Kosovo is different from Crimea? Because I DID engage "in your actual words"; in fact, I quoted you extensively (scroll up to my previous post). I didn't do that earlier because I thought your post was so much blah-blah-blah; so much rationalization not worth discussing.



******

Meanwhile, in other hot secessionist topics ...


Quote:

Catalan leader calls for international mediation in Madrid stand-off

MADRID (Reuters) - The leader of Catalonia called for international mediation on Monday to resolve a stand-off with Madrid, the day after hundreds were injured as police tried to forcibly disrupt a referendum on independence that had been ruled illegal.

“It is not a domestic matter,” Carles Puigdemont told a news conference on Monday. “It’s obvious that we need mediation.”

Sunday’s events in the autonomous region dramatically raised the temperature in a festering split between Madrid and Barcelona and made it harder for the two sides to sit down to try to find a political compromise.

Images of riot police using rubber bullets and batons in a show of force to stop the vote shocked Spain and drew international condemnation. Authorities said almost 900 people had been injured. ...

Puigdemont had gone ahead with the referendum in defiance of a court order. On Monday, he said the vote was valid and binding, and had to be applied.

He urged Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to say whether he was in favor of mediation in talks over the region’s future, which he said should be overseen by the European Union. He added that he had received no indication that the EU could sponsor this mediating role, and said Brussels had been timid and lacked courage on the matter.

In a statement issued shortly before Puigdemont made his proposal, the European Commission said: “We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics.”

The ballot, which asked voters if they wanted an independent republic, has no legal status as it was banned by Spain’s Constitutional Court for being at odds with the 1978 constitution, which states Spain cannot be broken up.

The overwhelming “Yes” vote among the 42 percent who authorities said had made it to the polls was not a surprise as those favoring continued union had been expected to stay at home en masse. Opinion polls in the run-up to the vote had put support for independence at only around 40 percent.

I hope those polls were better than the Brexit polls and the USA 2016 Presidential polls.

Quote:

On Monday, Justice Minister Rafael Catala said Spain could use its constitutional power to suspend Catalan’s existing autonomy if the regional parliament declared independence.

“We will use the entire force of the law. Our obligation is to resolve problems and we’ll do it, even though using certain measures might hurt,” he said in a television interview.



The article leaves me with a few questions:

If the opinion polls were correct, and only 40 pct of Catalans were in favor of independence, why would those against independence choose to stay home? I think they were afraid of losing. They felt they could most assuredly "win" by spoiling the vote (passive aggression); instead of taking a chance by participating. Because if they had participated wholeheartedly and LOST, that would have been the end of their game. The impression that I have is they even they felt that they didn't have as much support as "the opinion polls" suggested, and were fearful of losing in a democratic process.

Similar question about the violent police action of the Spanish government: If they felt that most people were against independence, and the Spanish authorities were going to reject the vote anyway, why send in the police with teargas and rubber bullets, confiscating ballots, occupying polling places, and deleting Google apps? All that does if give the impression that they (the authorities) believe that the vote has greater credibility than it really does. I believe this was a major misstep by Rajoy; he should have allowed the vote to go through without interference and then ignored it to death. There were any number of avenues he could have used to simply set the results aside, including low voter turnout and the referendum's essential unconstitutionality. As it is, he's just given the independence movement more ammunition (so to speak) and alienated some people who might have been on the fence.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 2, 2017 2:33 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

In the case of Kosovo Crimea ethnic Serbs Ukrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia Ukraine at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian Russian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman Russian control.

But the key factor in support for Kosovan Crimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnic Albanian Russian-speaking population in the 90's immediately after the coup. The UN ruled that Serbia coup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans [sic] Crimeans to live again under Serbian Ukrainian rule, given the way the Serbian Ukrainian government treated them in the 1990s."


Interesting insight into how your brain works. When confronted with facts you don't like, you just cross out words and replace them until the whole thing fits your worldview

Sorry Sig, you can't just make up war crimes out of thin air to bolster your argument.

Quote:

So if you want to do a reasoned, point-to-point comparison, how about starting with the points that you made about Kosovo?


Sure. In Kosovo we have:

1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.

In Crimea we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.

So, in the absence of any kind of evidence of war crimes in Crimea, one wonders what kind of nonsense arguments you've got lined up next. Some trumped up, Russian propaganda-hyped "war crimes" in other parts of Ukraine? (as if the separatists are not guilty of this, lol). Isolated incidents like the Odessa fire, which was not carried out by the Ukrainian government and certainly wasn't part of anything "systematic"?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, October 2, 2017 2:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
... no topic ... trolling ... no facts ... no discussion ... more trolling ... yeah - I have that covered because I'm a sick propagandist sociopathic fuck






Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 2, 2017 2:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”
Quote:

2. Spread by Russia
The ICC and the UN
Quote:

3. Believed by idiots

People who look for facts, instead of sociopathic propagandist fucks.

And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves. Yanno, just to be complete and factual, unlike you.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 2, 2017 3:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/catalonia-and-spain-map-out-their
-next-moves-after-chaotic-vote-for-independence/2017/10/02/d41307b8-a6fa-11e7-9a98-07140d2eed02_story.html

2 million citizens in the Catalonia region voted overwhelmingly in a controversial, chaotic referendum to declare independence from Spain

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/catalonia-votes-in-illegal-independenc
e-referendum.html

The outbreaks of police violence at a handful of polling locations served to heighten tensions in the Catalan capital

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-heartland/
from-batons-to-barbecues-catalan-vote-exposes-police-divisions-idUSKCN1C61KU

From batons to barbecues, Catalan vote exposes police divisions

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/madrids-brutal-tactics-have
-increased-the-divide/article19786645.ece

Madrid’s brutal tactics have increased the divide





Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 2, 2017 3:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thank you KIKI for handing KRAPO's ass to him. I was going to respond in detail about the anti-Russian beatings, burnings, and shellings, but see that I don't have to. KRAPO would have just argued about the facts anyway.
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”
Quote:

2. Spread by Russia
The ICC and the UN
Quote:

3. Believed by idiots

People who look for facts, instead of sociopathic propagandist fucks.

And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves. Yanno, just to be complete and factual, unlike you.



KRAPO: Interesting insight into how your brain works. When confronted with facts you don't like, you just cross out words and replace them until the whole thing fits your worldview

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 2, 2017 5:20 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:




That's funny, I distinctly remember saying "in Crimea", not Ukraine. Tut tut, changing my words. So are you two accepting the fact that no war crimes of any kind was carried out by the Ukrainian government in Crimea? So much for your point by point comparison Sig...

Was there ANY oppression of the Crimeans by Kiev before the annexation by Russia? (There's been plenty of oppression since...)

Quote:


Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267


Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea. If you're going to desperately google "Ukraine war crimes" at least read what you find

Quote:


UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”


By both sides. This is the UN report that says the conflict is “fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from Russia", yes?

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Thank you KIKI for handing KPO's ass to him.




Quote:


And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves.


Never said they were. But there's no equivalence between them and the Serbian government.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, October 2, 2017 6:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea. If you're going to desperately google "Ukraine war crimes" at least read what you find

You have a quote or link for that? No, of course not. Because YOUR LINK is a description of a war crimes report, and has nothing to do with Ukraine applying for anything. I love how you, like the perfect lying propagandist troll you are, make things up.
Quote:

This is the UN report that says the conflict is “fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from Russia", yes?
And right after that is says "Close to 90 per cent of conflict-related civilian deaths have resulted from indiscriminate shelling of residential areas." Shelling carried out by Kiev orders, according to the report http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/OHCHRThematicReportUkraine
Jan2014-May2016_EN.pdf
which criticizes the Ukrainian military. They criticize Ukrainian security forces for many of the deaths at Maidan. They criticize the military for killing prisoners. They criticize the military for killing military whistle-blowers. Ukraine police and military come in for a lot of criticism.

How's that claim going that Kiev has no responsibility for any war crimes, EVER?




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Tuesday, October 3, 2017 8:38 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

You have a quote or link for that? No, of course not.


It's there in the first line in your own link

Quote:

Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration lodged by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction


By the way, the outcome of that jurisdiction was that last year the ICC ruled that Russia's annexation of Crimea was an "occupation" of Ukrainian territory, and that Russia was waging war against Ukraine in the Donbas. This led to Russia pulling out of the ICC:

https://www.ft.com/content/994dd700-ac07-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/16/russia-withdraws-signatu
re-from-international-criminal-court-statute


From the second link:
Quote:

Ukraine has not ratified the Rome Statute either, but gave the ICC special jurisdiction to oversee the case.


Quote:

I love how you, like the perfect lying propagandist troll you are, make things up.

Speaking of which, please direct me to the part of the report that says that 90% of civilian deaths are attributable to "shelling carried out by Kiev orders".

Quote:

And right after that is says "Close to 90 per cent of conflict-related civilian deaths have resulted from indiscriminate shelling of residential areas."

ON BOTH SIDES. It says this clearly in the report.

Quote:

They criticize Ukrainian security forces for many of the deaths at Maidan.

LOL! These were killings of pro-Ukrainian, pro-European protesters by a pro-Russian Ukrainian president who is now hiding out in Russia! Getting desperate kiki?

Quote:

They criticize the military for killing prisoners. They criticize the military for killing military whistle-blowers. Ukraine police and military come in for a lot of criticism.

As do the separatists. As does Russia. What's your point?

Quote:

How's that claim going that Kiev has no responsibility for any war crimes in Crimea, EVER?

You tell me, you were supposed to be finding evidence of some! I'll wait

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, October 5, 2017 1:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Catalonia independence demonstration



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 16, 2017 11:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Catalan Leader Defies Spain, Sends Evasive Reply To Rajoy Activating Second Ultimatum Deadline
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/catalan-leader-defies-spain-s
ends-evasive-reply-rajoy-activating-second-ultimatum-de



With Just Hours Until Spain's Ultimatum Runs Out, Catalonia Proposes Its Own Central Bank
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-15/just-hours-until-spains-ultim
atum-runs-out-catalonia-proposes-its-own-central-bank


Spanish Prosecutors Seek To Jail Popular Catalan Police Chief
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-16/spanish-prosecutors-seek-jail
-popular-catalan-police-chief




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 16, 2017 1:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
(a quote or link) It's there in the first line in your own link

Actually - no, it's not. It says Ukraine accepted the jurisdiction - not that Ukraine applied for it.

You DO know the difference between those two words - do you not? Or are you so dishonest you have to pretend they're the same?

It's one or the other. Being too stupid to understand the actual words in a text, or too dishonest to portray them accurately.

I'm going for dishonest.

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
By the way, the outcome of that jurisdiction was that last year the ICC ruled that Russia's annexation of Crimea was an "occupation" of Ukrainian territory, and that Russia was waging war against Ukraine in the Donbas.

And this has nothing to do with your laughable assertion that Kiev committed no war crimes EVER!

But, while going through the actual report I did find this tidbit about the UK
https://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/otp/161114-otp-rep-PE_ENG.pdf
89.
Torture and other forms of ill-treatment
PIL and ECCHR alleged that the UK personnel committed systematically and on a large scale war crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court against at least 1071 Iraqi detainees pursuant to the UK Government’s deliberate policy of abuse of Iraqi detainees in the period from March 2003 through December 2008 on the territory of Iraq.






Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 16, 2017 7:42 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Actually - no, it's not. It says Ukraine accepted the jurisdiction - not that Ukraine applied for it.

You DO know the difference between those two words - do you not?


Oh you dummy. I told you it was in the first sentence and then I underlined the relevant words for you, and you still miss it. Here it is again:

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration lodged by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction



A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Keep reading this until it sinks in. Read the rest of your link as well; it might help you, and to be honest you should be reading your own links anyway. See this bit under 'Background':

Quote:

The ICC is based on a treaty, the Rome Statute, joined by 122 countries. A State may decide to ratify the Rome Statute but may also make a declaration under article 12-3 of the Statute declaring its acceptance of the Court's jurisdiction.

A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine.

Let's all see if kiki gets it this time.

Quote:

And this has nothing to do with your laughable assertion that Kiev committed no war crimes EVER!

In Crimea, and yes. Give ONE example.

Quote:

But, while going through the actual report I did find this tidbit about the UK

That's nice, did you find the bit I asked for, where you were going to back up your claim that 90% of civilian deaths are attributable to "shelling carried out by Kiev orders"? Or are you full of shit again?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, October 16, 2017 8:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Ukraine submitted a declaration accepting the ICC's jurisdiction.

So?


Quote:

“Lodge” means to deliver to the Clerk a document which is tendered to the Court but is not approved for filing, such as depositions, exhibits, or a proposed form of order.

Quote:

lodge: to make formal statement about something to a public organisation or authority


Just for reference, here's your assertion that Ukraine applied for the jurisdiction, specifically against Russia, neither of which is shown in the document.
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

You finally did get that Ukraine lodged a declaration.
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Keep reading this until it sinks in.
A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine.

And you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It's a level of legal documentation with less standing than filing.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Monday, October 16, 2017 9:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I have found NO reports by any international or European body that documents evidence the freedom fighters shelled civilians. But there IS evidenced documentation Kiev forces shelled civilians. Perhaps I should raise my number to 100%.


http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/OHCHRThematicReportUkraine
Jan2014-May2016_EN.pdf

Recorded instances of shelling are inbound to Luhansk.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-c
ivilians
(Human Rights Watch)
... a Human Rights Watch investigation on the ground strongly indicates that Ukrainian government forces were responsible for the attacks that occurred between July 12 and 21. The four attacks took place close to the front line ...

Just for reference, here's your assertion.
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda ...

... for example, from the UN and Human Rights Watch.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Friday, October 20, 2017 2:31 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Ukraine submitted a declaration accepting the ICC's jurisdiction.


Hooray!

Quote:

So?

So? YOU posted this link as evidence of Kiev war crimes - when in actuality it was Kiev who secured the jurisdiction of the ICC to investigate crimes in Ukrainian territory, and the outcome was the ruling that Crimea is being illegally occupied by Russia, and that Russia is a belligerent in the war in Ukraine's east.

All of which is a complete embarrassment for you, and shows up your lazy and dishonest approach of googling for things that back up your worldview and then either cherry picking, or dumping links without reading them and hoping nobody else does. Which I see you have done again in your most recent post...

Quote:

I have found NO reports by any international or European body that documents evidence the freedom fighters shelled civilians. But there IS evidenced documentation Kiev forces shelled civilians.

You are so full of shit. Go on then, which "international or European bodies" are you talking about? The UN? Amnesty International? HRW? The OSCE?

Quote:

Just for reference, here's your assertion.
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:


Very illuminating that whenever you get backed into a corner you respond with blatant lying. Siggy puts words in people's mouths; you doctor people's words. Lying and hoping nobody notices... It's worth keeping that in mind for whenever you claim anything - like that you don't read RT. Kiki is a liar.

So I'll ask again. In CRIMEA: can you give one example of Ukraine committing war crimes? Siggy, feel free to chime in as well. This was your idea, remember, a point by point comparison between Kosovo and Crimea?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by krappo:
when in actuality it was Kiev who secured the jurisdiction of the ICC

They accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC. That word is in the title and text of the linked article. https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997 Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014 "Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration (statement) lodged (submitted, a lesser legal status than filing) by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction ..."
There's a big difference between 'accepting' and 'securing'.

Not that I expect a propagandist and chronic liar like you at admit that.

Aaaaaaand, just for reference, here's your assertion.
Quote:

Originally posted by krappo:
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

This is a direct quote from you to Signy, posted Monday, October 2, 2017 2:33 PM. Did I 'doctor people's words'? Not unless you consider word-for-word quoting 'doctoring'.

Aaaaaaand, once again, you lied.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.


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Saturday, October 21, 2017 5:15 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

There's a big difference between 'accepting' and 'securing'.

Both apply fine in this case. Not sure why you're quibbling over words, except to distract from the fact that you posted a link without reading or understanding it which didn't back up your case at all.

Quote:

Not that I expect a propagandist and chronic liar like you at admit that.

Calling me a liar back. That's creative.

Quote:

This is a direct quote from you to Signy, posted Monday, October 2, 2017 2:33 PM. Did I 'doctor people's words'?

Yes. You changed the word "Crimea" to "Ukraine". And now you've changed it back. It's right there for everyone to see - why lie about it? I can only think it's the same reason you post links that don't say what you claim - you're hoping people don't check. Lie confidently enough and you might just get away with it.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, October 21, 2017 5:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And the question remains, krappo. Why are YOU so accepting of YOUR government repeatedly lying to its citizens? Here's one example: Tony Blair 'misrepresented intelligence on weapons of mass destruction to gain approval for Iraq War' - UN inspector http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-misrepresent
ed-intelligence-on-weapons-of-mass-destruction-to-gain-approval-for-iraq-war-a6713401.html

And why do YOU so incessantly repeat those lies here?

Quote:

Originally posted by krappo:
when in actuality it was Kiev who secured the jurisdiction of the ICC

They accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC. That word is in the title and text of the linked article. https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997 Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014 "Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration (statement) lodged (submitted, a lesser legal status than filing) by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction ..."
There's a big difference between 'accepting' and 'securing'.

Not that I expect a propagandist and chronic liar like you at admit that.

Aaaaaaand, just for reference, here's your assertion.
Quote:

Originally posted by krappo:
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

This is a direct quote from you to Signy, posted Monday, October 2, 2017 2:33 PM. Did I 'doctor people's words'? Not unless you consider word-for-word quoting 'doctoring'.

Aaaaaaand, once again, you lied.

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Sunday, October 22, 2017 4:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"It's A Coup": Catalan President Slams "Worst Attack" By Spain "Since Franco Dictatorship" the Spanish states' imposition of Article 155 means "liquidation of our self-government and cancellation of the democratic will of Catalans". In other words, he made it quite clear that the region's leaders would not accept direct rule imposed on the region by the Spanish government, as a political crisis that has rattled the economy and raised fears of prolonged unrest showed no signs of easing.

Puigdemont said Rajoy had set out to "humiliate" Catalonia in an "attack on democracy" and said removing powers from Catalonia was the "worst attack against the institutions and the people of Catalonia since the military dictatorship of Francisco Franco".

After taking party in peaceful demonstration, Puigdemont expressed his rejection of Madrid’s move, but stopped short of saying he would make good his threat to push ahead with the independence bid before direct rule takes effect.

“I ask the (Catalan) parliament to meet in a plenary session during which we, the representatives of the citizens’ sovereignty, will be able to decide over this attempt to liquidate our government and our democracy, and act in consequence,” Puigdemont said in a televised address.

Puigdemont also said Spain "closed the doors ot a request for talks, and should set a date to discuss the attack" and "Catalan institutions cannot accept attack by Spain."

In a striking accusation, the Catalan president said that "Catalan institutions dealt a coup by Spanish state." Puigdemont then switched to English to appeal to Europeans, says democracy also at risk in Europe: "Catalonia is an ancient European nation". He also announced a session in Catalan parliament to debate "the attempt to liquidate our self-government".

Puigdemont concluded by saying "Long live Catalonia" to which a silently listening crowd suddenly burst back into cheers and chanting.

However, as noted, Puigdemont did not specifically declare independence, but said Catalonia will not accept Madrid's plan to curb region's powers, leaving one tiny, final loophole.

MORE AT
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-21/450000-take-barcelonas-street
s-led-catalan-separatist-president-chanting-time-declar


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Monday, October 23, 2017 2:50 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And the question remains, krappo. Why are YOU so accepting of YOUR government repeatedly lying to its citizens? Here's one example: Tony Blair 'misrepresented intelligence on weapons of mass destruction to gain approval for Iraq War'


God, you're deflecting to the Iraq war now

And you still think Tony Blair is in government

Go ahead and copy and paste your post again for the third or fourth time. It's clear you don't have any other contribution beyond that.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, October 23, 2017 3:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, you don't care that your government lied to you - and the rest of the citizens - to phony-up an excuse to BE AN AGGRESSOR NATION and start a war with a country that didn't have the capacity to defend itself. Though, despite your insouciance, BEING AN AGGRESSOR NATION is a big deal. And being accused of widespread, prolonged war crimes in that country - torture and murder of captives - by the UN is a ALSO big deal.

Presumably you also don't care that your government lied to you about Kosovo, Ukraine, Libya, Egypt, the EU, and Rotherham and Telford, and is lying to you now about Syria and Iran.

That's good to know.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Tuesday, October 24, 2017 8:51 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Yeah, pretty much any argument with you on any topic will lead here:

Kiki: "IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ! IRAQ!!!!!!!!"



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, October 24, 2017 9:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Yeah, pretty much any argument with you on any topic will lead here:

KRAPO: "RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! !!!!!!!!"





Which is why you always say...
Quote:

Political truths by incessant repetition."


Gawd, you're such a tool.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Wednesday, October 25, 2017 3:05 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Ha, that Iraq criticism goes for you as well Sig. Hilariously, you guys think the Iraq War is your "Hail-Mary-trump-card" which you can play at any point in an argument and makes you automatically RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING.

I wonder if you guys will still be playing it another 15 years from now

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It makes us right about what you are wrong about - our governments lie to us. Often. Repeatedly. Consistently. With intent.

They propagandize us.




HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU BY NOW THAT IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO LOGICAL FALLACIES AND TROLLING YOUR SO-CALLED ARGUMENTS ARE LIES?

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Friday, October 27, 2017 2:18 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


So, at some point, Catalan and Stan were morphed into the thread title?

I would expect to see Catalan in an EU Breakup thread.

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Friday, October 27, 2017 2:30 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas
Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:
Quote:

Let's assume that there is a portion of Ukraine where a clear majority wants separation. Let's assume it was a vote that even YOU would agree was free and fair. Would you allow it? -SIGNY
Only if Ukraine permitted it. -KPO
That's the difference between us, I guess. You really DO want to build societies on guns and bombs. Personally, I have no problems with separatists. I think the results of free and fair votes should be rewarded. - SIGNY

It seems your position on separatist movements has 'evolved' quite a bit.
Quote:

The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union.
Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.
Quote:

All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that
Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?
Quote:

Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically
Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question.
Quote:

SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO
Uh-huh, which is what I said. And your point with this thread is what then?
------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria -
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS -
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

Poor Sigs - it was fun at first and then...

Holy Cow, the quote function and syntax appear to be a lost art form. Such a pile of muck, wonder who said what.

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Friday, October 27, 2017 4:41 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
It makes us right about what you are wrong about - our governments lie to us. Often. Repeatedly. Consistently.



Yes, one instance of government lying (or exaggerating) 15 years ago proves that all US/UK governments lie, repeatedly, constantly and propagandise us.

#kikilogic


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Saturday, April 7, 2018 8:59 AM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Bump for Signy who, several months later, has started accusing me again of 'dodging' the question of what's the difference between Kosovo and Crimea:

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Sure. In Kosovo we have:

1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.

In Crimea we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.

So, in the absence of any kind of evidence of war crimes in Crimea, one wonders what kind of nonsense arguments you've got lined up next. Some trumped up, Russian propaganda-hyped "war crimes" in other parts of Ukraine? (as if the separatists are not guilty of this, lol). Isolated incidents like the Odessa fire, which was not carried out by the Ukrainian government and certainly wasn't part of anything "systematic"?



And Sig, are you finally ready to state your support for Kosovan independence (just as you support Crimean secession from Ukraine)?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Sunday, April 8, 2018 10:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I guess I missed this one.

Burp it back up in three weeks or so, ok?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

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Monday, April 16, 2018 12:02 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Pfft. You couldn't answer it at the time and you can't answer it now. You won't be able to answer it in 3 weeks, either.


******************************************************

EDIT:

Adding it here as the link doesn't seem to be working below:

Who were the snipers who gunned down unarmed protesters in Kiev in 2014?

New analysis points to Yanukovich's security forces, and further undermines the Russian 'false flag' theories:

https://nyti.ms/2LHvx6S

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, May 31, 2018 4:51 PM

KPO

Anti-Russia before it was cool.


Who were the snipers who gunned down unarmed protesters in Kiev in 2014?

New analysis points to Yanukovich's security forces, and further undermines the Russian 'false flag' theories: