What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society? by Niki2

Quote:
HEY - YOU YOUNG FOLK! You got spare energy. How about giving us old folk a hand?

Since when do young people have spare time or energy? Between the bullshit school hours and busy work, or the corporate drudgerie and overtime?

Ultimately, everyone has to work out what they're going to do about everything for themselves. No one can just pass it off to someone they think has it easier.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 6, 2014 5:22 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wait till you get old. Then compare your physical energy between being old and young. I didn't used to understand how my parents could be so tired. Now I know - the years take their toll. If you don't have the time and energy now, it isn't going to happen later. Just sayin'.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 6, 2014 5:29 PM

Quote:
If you don't have the time and energy now, it isn't going to happen later.

That basically goes for everyone of all ages.

Seriously, whatever young people care about this are already doing what they can. Don't expect someone else to do for you what you should be doing for yourself.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 6, 2014 5:37 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hmmm - did I say I wasn't going to be doing anything? I just pointed out it was going to need some allotting. I think you've misread my posts.
HOWEVER - YOU are the generation with the most to lose. I'll be dead by the time the shit hits the fan in earnest. Maybe you could do some allotting yourself?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 6, 2014 5:59 PM

Quote:
Maybe you could do some allotting yourself?

Again with this shaming. Where's your justification for shaming, what makes you think you have the right to shame?

As for death, it's not real picky about ages either. We're all in that race.

You say *I* have the most to lose. Do you have a husband? Do you have children? Do you have a future?

If you really want to go there, fine - YOU have so much more to lose than me or my generation ever will. You have people you have a responsibility to, and that might constrain what you can do for the effort. But don't look to us because you think you're somehow better than us and we haven't been holding up our end of the bargain. Don't look at us because you think you're too old and we're young and have energy we're not using. Hell with that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, January 6, 2014 7:30 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Maybe you could do some allotting yourself?"
"Again with this shaming."

It was a suggestion.

"... don't look to us because you think you're somehow better than us and we haven't been holding up our end of the bargain"

FWIW - My generation started the environmental movement. Political pressure got us the EPA. Rivers no longer catch on fire. The Montreal Protocol got signed. Recycling is the norm, not the exception. But obviously we fell far short of what is needed to be done. That was our effort for better or worse. It's on the record. Your record is still to be written. Maybe you are doing more than I realize. I just don't see a concerted effort from your generation. And I fear that without a lot more from all of us, there will be a deadly price to be paid. Statistically, I won't see it, but you will. I don't think it's a slam to point out these pretty evident facts.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The childless/jobless young and the childless/retired make natural allies.

BYTE: People of MY generation got their heads cracked protesting the Vietnam war, and attempted to create a "counterculture". After that, everyone went to med and dental and law school. (An acquaintance of mine, looking at the next generation of joggers-around-campus and their focus on the trivial/ personal, muttered May you live a hundred years... under capitalism!.)

Many posts ago, you were crowing about how YOUR generation was so smart they could outsmart the NSA. I asked if you (or your generation) knew the basis of CMOS technology, or could develop a firewall strong enough to keep out the NSA, or could design femto-second data capture circuit. AND... I'm adding now... organize campus actions and analyze economic trends. As I recall, you were rather quiet in reply.

KIKI has racked up a rather impressive list of actions. What have you done?

The older generation is not a waste, despite what you might think. And neither are you. The power that needs to be fought is large and strong and will take a worldwide, multi-generational movement and has no room for such petty divisions. Older people are TIRED people. As time goes on, we will get more and more tired. Eventually, we will be in wheelchairs and dependent. Younger people, IMHO, are stuck online with gaming and Facebook. You seem to be an aficionado yourself. None of us are perfect.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 7, 2014 10:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NIKI- from the same article that I linked for Geezer in the recession thread, I found this

Quote:
Kraus and Keltner looked deeper into the connection between social class and social class essentialism by testing participants’ belief in a just world, asking them to evaluate such statements as “I feel that people get what they are entitled to have.” The psychologist Melvin Lerner developed just world theory in the 1960s, arguing that we’re motivated to believe that the world is a fair place. The alternative—a universe where bad things happen to good people—is too upsetting. So we engage defense mechanisms such as blaming the victim—“She shouldn’t have dressed that way”—or trusting that positive and negative events will be balanced out by karma, a form of magical thinking.

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/do-rich-peopl
e-really-think-they-are-superior-20140106-30cu0.html

Point being- karma isn't going to get us "back to" a decent society (if we ever were one.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:50 AM

Quote:
BYTE: People of MY generation got their heads cracked protesting the Vietnam war

People of my generation have also been hit by police batons, rubber bullets, pepper spray, fire hoses, sound cannons, and microwave pain rays. I've never said one generation is better than any other.

But you both decided to turn this into a generation war thing, instead of encouraging the generations to work together, because it's more important to you that you can claim generational superiority.

I'm sure calling the people you want to recruit selfish young people will totally bring all those selfish young people FLOCKING to your cause.

I can do that too, watch. Why look at that jogger, I'm sure they spend all their time jogging and never once contributed to any cause based on the maybe five minutes we have observed of their lives. That's enough information for us to be judgmental and sneer about all these foolish selfish millenial kids. How dare they come from poorer middle class families and a bad job market and beginner wages and a bigger education/house debt than any other generation has ever seen, why don't they do MORE for society?

We can totally still fight but we like to talk about how we're OLD even though we're NOT and how we have to pass it on to the next generation but they're do-nothing lackwits who think listening to their devil music on their ipods is more important than being good citizens. In our day we listened to devil music on records made by the recording industry and turn tables from GE, and it made us rebels! Look at them, bunch of lackadaisical irresponsible selfish counter-culture stoners having all the promiscuous sex everywhere. They should cut their dirty greasy hair.

Quote:
Many posts ago, you were crowing about how YOUR generation was so smart they could outsmart the NSA. I asked if you (or your generation) knew the basis of CMOS technology, or could develop a firewall strong enough to keep out the NSA, or could design femto-second data capture circuit. AND... I'm adding now... organize campus actions and analyze economic trends. As I recall, you were rather quiet in reply.

Yes to all of those. Then there's the deepnet which even the intelligence agencies can't control, the large scale sometimes spontaneous organization we've observed through social media...

And, you don't even have to go that far to resist. How old is Edward Snowden? Pretty sure he is part of my generation, which has a slight technological advantage which hasn't existed in the past.

Quote:
KIKI has racked up a rather impressive list of actions. What have you done?

Yes, all things she can brag about on the internet, all things that are perfectly within the lines of what the system will allow. Oh, you've written to your senators, oh you've donated to campaigns, oh you've done door to door canvassing with petitions and booklets, oh you've boycotted businesses, oh you've protested wars, oh you've VOTED. Geez, as an ENTIRELY ORGANIC VEGAN with an eye towards self-sufficiency to the point of growing food in a community garden, investing in solar power, and making my own clothes, I suppose I'm just such a corporate WHORE.

Except no. I've done all that and more. I don't brag about it on the internet because it is UNWISE, and because it's not about making me FEEL better or LOOK better to anyone else and it's none of anyone's business but my own, and because I DON'T ANSWER TO YOU.

Furthermore, all that alone won't change ZIP until you're also willing to work OUTSIDE the system.

You want to have a two or three person discussion about how no one else but you guys on the board does anything politically active and demand that we account for ourselves, then fine, but I'm going to get offended on behalf of everyone else here.

All the times people have called me bossy and controlling on this board, I haven't ever questioned the lives or the value of the contributions of ANYONE.

And if you attack me and people my age just because I'm younger then you, I'm going to take it personal.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:30 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The "generational" shot across the bow?

Quote:
Seriously, whatever young people care about this are already doing what they can. Don't expect someone else to do for you what you should be doing for yourself.

First of all... no, they are not. I know plenty of young people. Plenty of young people work for me. I know what they're doing and what they're not doing. Like "young people" everywhere, some are doing a lot, and some are on the other side. It's not a generational thing. Since we both agree on that point, let's drop all reference to age, and instead focus on personal resources (time, money, energy) and results.

Quote:
Except no. I've done all that and more. I don't brag about it on the internet because it is UNWISE, and because it's not about making me FEEL better or LOOK better to anyone else and it's none of anyone's business but my own, and because I DON'T ANSWER TO YOU.

And you too have a long list of actions. You should be proud.

Quote:
Furthermore, all that alone won't change ZIP until you're also willing to work OUTSIDE the system.

And bragging about that IS unwise. I phrased my opinion on non-violence very carefully because, really, is it wise to advocate violence?

Ultimately, tho, nothing will change by our individual actions. We need at least to coordinate. That was one of the things that drove me nuts about Occupy: seemed to be no understanding that different groups doing different things all have viable functions.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:53 AM

Quote:
First of all... no, they are not. I know plenty of young people. Plenty of young people work for me. I know what they're doing and what they're not doing. Like "young people" everywhere, some are doing a lot, and some are on the other side. It's not a generational thing.

If you do not think it's a generational thing, then why are you emphasizing that it is YOUNG people who are not doing their part? If it is NOT a generational thing, that would imply that there are people of ALL ages who do not focus on issues beyond themselves. Yet in your posts and in society in general the blame is always heaped on the young. The YOUNG are always the ones who are called selfish, when the rate of involvement among ALL ages is ALL low.

This struggle is not for everyone, so I object to this attitude about how we should judge some people because they'd rather deal with their own problems. Life is hard enough. It is apparent to me that if someone has the financial ability and time enough to be active and involved in causes, they're speaking from a position of privilege when they call out those who are not involved.

You resent that the greater population doesn't help you? But you are doing this for society in general? You are doing this for them?

Then take strength from their happiness. Take strength from the stability they enjoy because of your hard work. Take strength from their ABILITY to CHOOSE whether they fight or not. Even if they don't join you. Even if at times it seems like you are alone in your fight and no one else will stand with you. Because you can't take strength from their sacrifices. You can't take strength from their deaths. From that you can only take losses.

If you want help from people, INSPIRE them. Instead of shaming, instead of judging. Because what support you get will be so much more whole-hearted.

And because if you don't alienate them first, you might be surprised what the selfish and self-centered people do when they at last see an opportunity that might tip the balance.

Quote:
And bragging about that IS unwise. I phrased my opinion on non-violence very carefully because, really, is it wise to advocate violence?

I was not advocating violence.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, January 8, 2014 8:42 PM

Nice post, Byte.

I remember once when I was younger, a baby boomer lamenting the lack of demonstrations on campus. By the time I got to university, students were more focused pn jobs,housing and drinking than politics, in the main. I now reflect that this university 'radical' is a wealthy financier who has lived much of his life in New York.

And when i was younger, things were still pretty cushy compared to today. Higher education was free, you could rent houses cheaply in the innercity, food was cheap, utilities were a marginal cost (all being publically owned). Jobs were not as well paid, cars were expensive, but on the whole, if you didn't want much you could live easily off very little money.

I compare what I experienced as a 20 something person, compared with the experiences of those of that age today. No job security and no chance of it, exhorbitant housing costs as well as food and utilities. Technology is cheap, so are some other commodities, but its harder and harder for younger people to see a decent future unless they pursue aggressively high paying careers. Teachers, nurses, et al face a pretty uncertain time.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE:

Quote:
If you do not think it's a generational thing, then why are you emphasizing that it is YOUNG people who are not doing their part? If it is NOT a generational thing, that would imply that there are people of ALL ages who do not focus on issues beyond themselves. Yet in your posts and in society in general the blame is always heaped on the young. The YOUNG are always the ones who are called selfish, when the rate of involvement among ALL ages is ALL low.

I'm still reacting to your post, in another thread, where you VERY generationally brought up how much smarter "young people" are today. That was when I challenged you on a series of projects which I KNOW were completed by "old folks" today... projects which you can't possibly compare to, simply because you don't have the years of experience and active learning that it takes to accumulate the shitload of knowledge required for that depth and scope. There have been studies (I can't recall whether published in IEEE or other prof publication) that older engineers are actually better than younger engineers in programming newer applications (like smart phones). There are all kinds of reasons why, some of them are lack of quality education. But you yourself started this generational thing.

Quote:
This struggle is not for everyone

The problem is everyone's, whether they accept it or not. Some people can't struggle. But everyone will still be affected by the outcome, whether they have struggled or not.

Quote:
so I object to this attitude about how we should judge some people because they'd rather deal with their own problems. Life is hard enough. It is apparent to me that if someone has the financial ability and time enough to be active and involved in causes, they're speaking from a position of privilege when they call out those who are not involved.

See my answer to Magons (below).

Quote:
You resent that the greater population doesn't help you? But you are doing this for society in general? You are doing this for them?

No, I am frustrated that they do not help THEMSELVES, because their lemming-like behavior will eventually pull us ALL over a cliff. Me included. You too. There is a lack of attention to reality that I find frustrating.

Quote:
Then take strength from their happiness. Take strength from the stability they enjoy because of your hard work. Take strength from their ABILITY to CHOOSE whether they fight or not. Even if they don't join you. Even if at times it seems like you are alone in your fight and no one else will stand with you. Because you can't take strength from their sacrifices. You can't take strength from their deaths. From that you can only take losses.

You think I'm doing this to "help people"? I'm not being magnanimous, I see this as a matter of survival.

Quote:
I was not advocating violence.

I didn't think that you were. I wasn't clear, so let me clarify: advocating ANYTHING out of the system is unwise. Advocating violence is just one example of unwise behavior; one that I've specifically avoided.

MAGONS

Quote:
I remember once when I was younger, a baby boomer lamenting the lack of demonstrations on campus. By the time I got to university, students were more focused pn jobs,housing and drinking than politics, in the main. I now reflect that this university 'radical' is a wealthy financier who has lived much of his life in New York.

And when i was younger, things were still pretty cushy compared to today. Higher education was free, you could rent houses cheaply in the innercity, food was cheap, utilities were a marginal cost (all being publically owned). Jobs were not as well paid, cars were expensive, but on the whole, if you didn't want much you could live easily off very little money.

I compare what I experienced as a 20 something person, compared with the experiences of those of that age today. No job security and no chance of it, exhorbitant housing costs as well as food and utilities. Technology is cheap, so are some other commodities, but its harder and harder for younger people to see a decent future unless they pursue aggressively high paying careers. Teachers, nurses, et al face a pretty uncertain time.

Are you implying that anyone who is politically active wa/is coddled? That life is so much tougher today?

I grew up in a very economically depressed hardscrabble rust belt city, where it was damn near impossible to get a job on graduation. My HUBBY, who is even more politically active than I am, grew up in a small hamlet with no running water or indoor toilets. He left university for lack of money, left an abusive home, and lived in an abandoned barn. While his head was getting cracked by the police he was a motorcycle mechanic auditing university classes because he couldn't pay the fees.

This whole concept that "life is so much harder now" is sheer utter hogwash. The people of the Depression and before, who fought for unionization, and the slaves before them, had it far worse than we do today, but managed to do more.

If young people today want to control their future, they have to take power. It's that simple.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 12:34 AM

Quote:
I'm still reacting to your post, in another thread, where you VERY generationally brought up how much smarter "young people" are today.

I never intended to imply that the younger generation were smarter than older generations. The younger generation tends to be more technologically hooked in, however, and also more innovative/adaptable on the technology front.

Except they ARE smarter than the people working for the intelligence agencies... Because those guys are actually pretty universally dumb. EVERYONE is smarter than them.

Something about the culture in those groups makes them really uncreative, some combination of training that makes them sociopathic and clique-y, and then being given the go ahead for lots of dirty tricks makes them inclined to use the least subtle ones. They think they're untouchable, it makes them careless.

The generations definitely aren't getting dumber - IQ tests suggest smarter, but that's more how well the education is adapted to IQ tests, so I suspect intelligence-wise all generations are pretty equal potential speaking.

Quote:
advocating ANYTHING (...) is unwise.

Which is why I didn't want to say anything. And why I don't talk about my own specific political activism. And why you thought I don't do jack shit. And part of why it's a terrible idea for you to demand that everyone on the board account for themselves.

I've made my point on the rest of it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:23 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

I call bulllshit. 'instead of encouraging the generations to work together'

WHAT WAS MY POST AGAIN EXACTLY? IT WAS A CALL FOR YOU YOUNG FOLK TO LEND US OLD FOLK A HAND. Holy crap. That almost sounds like WORKING TOGETHER.

Don't believe me? Go and re-read it. YOU'RE the one who claimed it was blaming, and shaming, and turned it into a generational conflict.

Yanno, without saying anything about your generation YOU'RE A SELF-RIGHTEOUS ASSHOLE.
And a liar.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

As evidence of "rape mentality"
Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:29 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh, BTW "Except they ARE smarter than the people working for the intelligence agencies... Because those guys are actually pretty universally dumb. EVERYONE is smarter than them."

So, do you believe in the sheer power of elitism? That JUST BECAUSE you're smarter (or think you are) it doesn't mean they have way more powerful technology than you and the power of law and the corporations behind them? That somehow 'being smarter' is going to magically protect you from all that?

Not only are you an asshole, you're entitled and dumb too.

I'm done with you.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Are you implying that anyone who is politically active wa/is coddled? That life is so much tougher today?

I grew up in a very economically depressed hardscrabble rust belt city, where it was damn near impossible to get a job on graduation. My HUBBY, who is even more politically active than I am, grew up in a small hamlet with no running water or indoor toilets. He left university for lack of money, left an abusive home, and lived in an abandoned barn. While his head was getting cracked by the police he was a motorcycle mechanic auditing university classes because he couldn't pay the fees.

This whole concept that "life is so much harder now" is sheer utter hogwash. The people of the Depression and before, who fought for unionization, and the slaves before them, had it far worse than we do today, but managed to do more.

If young people today want to control their future, they have to take power. It's that simple.

I was describing my experience during my lifetime where I live. Times are much tougher now than when I was growing up (which wasnt in the depression) in the way that I described in my post. My view of babyboomers is that on the whole they are an incredibly priveledged bunch, who reaped the benefits of a whole lot of keynsian policies including free education, health care, a generous welfare system, highly unionised industry, excellent working conditions and made a lot of money by buying into the housing market when prices were low. Of course many of those conditions disappeared, removed by the babyboomer generation themselves when they reached age and power levels to do so. Housing prices driven up by investors, you guessed it, baby boomers. Many of those conditions were hard fought for by political activists of earlier generations, who did have it tough.

And the icing on the cake is when babyboomers bitch and moan about the current generation - pretty much in replication of their own parents who bitched and moaned about them.

So while I acknowledge that those years were ones of significant change in society and there were many political activists who worked hard to bring about important changes, I find the self congratulatory attitudes of people of that era somewhat galling. I might add that I am a babyboomer/gen x cusp era - depending on the dates used.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:46 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

There were the boomers and then the next generation - I think it was called Gen-X. As exemplified by Tom Cruise and SHOW ME THE MONEY. It was not my generation on Wall Street only looking for the best paycheck.
As for the supposed privilege of my generation, it didn't happen in this country. It was the age of the Nixon era Vietnam War followed by Carter stagflation followed by Reagan budget cuts - no welfare, foodstamps, low-cost tuition (it was never free in the US), no student aid or all the lovely-sounding things you mention. Plus there was NEVER a healthcare system. I got through school working 2 and 3 jobs while attending full time and living in a dump.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I never intended to imply that the younger generation were smarter than older generations. The younger generation tends to be more technologically hooked in, however, and also more innovative/adaptable on the technology front.

You have no idea what it took to invent the transistor. Or write Unix. And that was before my generation. I recognize important developments of the past. I'm not the one claiming that I'm smarter than those "old folks". In fact, it seems with each generation we've been getting stupider and stupider, and I consider myself part of that trend.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So while I acknowledge that those years were ones of significant change in society and there were many political activists who worked hard to bring about important changes, I find the self congratulatory attitudes of people of that era somewhat galling. I might add that I am a babyboomer/gen x cusp era - depending on the dates used.

Yeah, yeah, whatever. Whether you're galled or whether your self-congratulatory, being steamrolled by TPTB and climate shift and overpopulation is in your future too. You're gonna have so much fun with it. (she said sourly)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 2:36 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh yeah Byte - as I re-read some things - one last comment:

"... We can totally still fight but we like to talk about how we're OLD even though we're NOT .."

Really? You know how old I am? How tired? How much in pain?

I have never been one to say 'I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy' b/c that would be a lie. But I'll say this to you - I hope you end up feeling EXACTLY the way I feel. I hope some asshole comes up tp you and tells you you're lying about it. I really do.

Have a really not nice life.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You have no idea what it took to invent the transistor. Or write Unix. And that was before my generation. I recognize important developments of the past. I'm not the one claiming that I'm smarter than those "old folks". In fact, it seems with each generation we've been getting stupider and stupider, and I consider myself part of that trend.

Why would you assume I have no idea about those things, or the effort it took. I don't understand the tone of your post.

I don't think we're stupider or smarter than previous or future? generations. Each generation has its activists, and its dreamers and its shallow ones and its destructive ones. And its kind of the thing that we do is to lament that the younger generation are shallow, pleasure seeking, out of control, dangerous et al. Because that is kind of the difference between youth and 'not youth' - I wont consider myself aged.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The reply was to BYTE, who seems to think that her generation is the apex of everything.

It is a common fallacy that people today are smarter than before. They're not. As we specialize more and more, our fields of knowledge get narrower and narrower. The older generation had to know about mechanics, and basic household chemistry, farming, electricity. Now, its impossible to fix your car w/o a computer. Or your washing machine. Technology has been taken so far out of the realm of the average person that they have become stupefied about it and ineffective in their daily lives. It is a point of control: Fall into line, or your cars and toys are at risk. Also, I think there is something insidious about mass media... people are living virtual lives now... becoming separated from reality and substituting convenient, effort-free, trivial activities for real world effectiveness.

Up until the introduction of television, this wasn't a problem. But like Marshal McLuhan said, the medium IS the message. We're now swamped with adverts 24/7, awash in a sea of messages that tell us that consumption is everything and work is nothing.

Just to get back to BYTE for a moment- she may be very active. For all I know, she's come kind of mastermind... something that NOBODY would want to brag about online. But looking at the effect that generations have had... after the women's movement and the environmental movement.... nothing. Maybe Occupy will turn into a real movement; they DID point up that there is a class divide and that idea has entered into the vernacular and hasn't gone away. But if things are going to change... and we DO want them to change, right?... there has to be some action besides this nascent bubbling up of consciousness, and I haven't seen it yet.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 10:48 AM

Quote:
it doesn't mean they have way more powerful technology than you and the power of law and the corporations behind them?

More powerful laws and technology doesn't mean jack shit if they use it in foolish ways. The basic plan of the intelligence agencies is to establish gigantic databases via corporate cooperation and have computers sift through heaploads of utterly useless information.

I'm not impressed because that's nothing to be impressed about.

Quote:
Really? You know how old I am? How tired? How much in pain?

You're the one who said you're still fighting at your age. Therefore you're talking about being so old yet you can totally still fight. You have a problem with me saying what you're saying?

Then you started about how it's only you guys who are doing anything and the younger generation needs to get on the ball. That is NOT the same as saying "we need to work together." I took offense because of how both you and Sig presented your opinion. Hell yes I'm self-righteous. I'm even judgmental. And I'm hardly one to talk about using guilt and shaming tactics. But you both were shooting yourselves in the foot.

I won't outlive you, and I have various joint conditions and health problems. My life doesn't matter, so it also doesn't matter if I'm in pain or alive or tired or not.

I appreciate your wishing ill-fortune and curses upon me though. It's thoughtful, kinder than any compliment any of you could have given me. It means that you understand.

Quote:
Yanno, without saying anything about your generation YOU'RE A SELF-RIGHTEOUS ASSHOLE.
And a liar.

Quote:

Not only are you an asshole, you're entitled and dumb too.

Considering that's what I've been saying all along, it's nice someone finally conceded that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 11:03 AM

Quote:
I'm not the one claiming that I'm smarter than those "old folks".

Quote:

The reply was to BYTE, who seems to think that her generation is the apex of everything.

That is actually not what I was saying. At all.

Also clearly, this conversation is no longer useful to anyone.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 4:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA

It's a different game, different tactics, is what it is.
I've pointed out often enough that standard issue, conventional protest is a waste, and a detriment, I dun need to do so again.
We are attacking the Utah facility via utility-denial, not to mention shitloads of ringers in the Contract Labor, and beyond that they'll NEVER find all the backdoors we're slipping in.

As for being observed and monitored, has no one ever given even half a thought to the deliberate disinformation, or the offhand comment I made some time ago that the "old guard" of back when accurate intelligence was actually valued have deliberately chosen to turn a blind eye to anything I ever say or do ?

Fact: They're doomed, they just don't know it yet.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 5:53 PM

KANEMAN

That video may be the most......ah, forget it.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The reply was to BYTE, who seems to think that her generation is the apex of everything.

I've read through Byte's posts on this thread, and that doesn't appear at all to be what she is saying. In fact she says that is not what she is trying to say. I see that she got defensive about some comments you and Ikiki have made about her generation. I see that both of you have made comments about the achievements of your generation.

I am not sure why this had to get so hostile???

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, January 9, 2014 6:54 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I am not sure why this had to get so hostile???

Yeah, that's my feeling. Hostility from other encounters came out here, I'm guessing.

All generations suck. All generations have good stuff. Older folk have a longer record so they're easy to blame, younger people don't have as much experience so they're easy to blame.

As for the energy thing, I think my declining energy is pretty much a mental thing. I just don't care to try as hard now as I did when I was younger. I have less to prove and care less what other folk think of me.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:16 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

" Therefore you're talking about being so old yet you can totally still fight."

Are you REALLY as stupid as rappy? Go and read my posts. Tell me where I said I could 'totally fight'.

I dare you.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:28 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I spent a LOT of posts TRYING to work my way around Byte's booby-traps. I posted NOTHING that she accused me of posting. I've had it with her going out of her way to pick fights, and lying to me about MY OWN POSTS in order to do it.
YOU deal with her. Maybe you'll even get to experience her efforts like I have. I hope you enjoy them.

"All generations suck." Here's the thing. I didn't post anything negative about the younger generation. I only said I didn't SEE the effort being put forth to fix these problems. And I don't. Mass student riots like the anti-Vietnam War riots? Not happening. Mass marches like the civil rights marches? Not happening. Mass movement on the environment? Not happening. Lots of people standing in line to become even better Pod people? Totally going on. Are the young people of today DOING ANYTHING to turn this around? PLEASE - tell me. 'Cause I don't see it.

As for the 'tired' thing - get older, and sicker, and live in constant pain for a decade or so. 'Mental' explanations for being tired only go so far under those circumstances. And 'mental' adjustments aren't the fix, at least not for me. As I posted above, I could never understand how my parents could be so TIRED. Until I got there myself. You - are suffering from a lack of imagination. Maybe you'll have to get there too b4 you understand.

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I am not sure why this had to get so hostile???

Yeah, that's my feeling. Hostility from other encounters came out here, I'm guessing.

All generations suck. All generations have good stuff. Older folk have a longer record so they're easy to blame, younger people don't have as much experience so they're easy to blame.

As for the energy thing, I think my declining energy is pretty much a mental thing. I just don't care to try as hard now as I did when I was younger. I have less to prove and care less what other folk think of me.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
RAPPY: [My trolling] did its job, did it not? Easiest marks in the 'verse.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 9:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

MAGONS

Quote:
I've read through Byte's posts on this thread

I wish, then, that you had taken care to read thru MY posts with as much care.

And why not? I mean for you to ask yourself that question seriously, because I think you might learn something about yourself.

So. Thanks for being so very even-handed. Not. I specifically said I was posting to a comment in another thread. In fact, let's reel that back...

Quote:
I'm still reacting to your post, in another thread, where you VERY generationally brought up how much smarter "young people" are today. -signy

I never intended to imply that the younger generation were smarter than older generations. The younger generation tends to be more technologically hooked in, however, and also more innovative/adaptable on the technology front.-byte

Seriously??? WHO'S being generational?? And who completely missed the obvious? Well, that would be you. You did the same thing that we constantly accuse RWAers of doing: seeing what you want to see. Yep, you missed Capt'n Obvious standing right in front of you. You might want to look into that, because it's prolly happened more than once, and for the same reason, whatever that is. You have also completely avoided the point of nearly every thread I've posted. Yup, like I said: Thank you very much for being even-handed. But I know better now. Next time, I won't expect you to be intelligent and perceptive, and I won't be disappointed.

I think the problem is that you simply do not like what I'm posting. It's negative, it's critical, it's "Not nice". It has nothing to do with "how we feel" - which is so much easier to talk about because, after all, we FEEL the right things, right?? - and everything to do with how we are failing as a species. It bypasses that whole "We can 'control everything/are in charge of our fate' if only we change our attitude" tripe (which is SO much easier to deal with!), takes us out of the realm of the coffee klatch*, and focuses on the task at hand. And finds all of us mostly wanting. Rappy, of course. Geezer, and zit. Jongssie.

And you. Byte. Niki. Kiki. Me. Nice people. Better'n those others, but damn ineffective.

I find BYTE to be entirely self-absorbed. NIKI, bless her heart, engages in magical thinking about karma. I'm way too busy with my sick hubby and disabled daughter. KIKI is too sick and too old. You are too comfortable. That is what keeps us from dealing with the awful reality before us.

There is something good about being old. If you spend a lifetime learning... well, you learn a lot. And you have a comparatively long timespan over which to see how things have changed. So, I'm going to tell you a "When I was young" story, which i guarantee stretches back further than your stories of youth.

When I was young... there were 3.5 billion people on the globe. Pollution was specific, to a river or a city. Overpopulation was a future problem. The oceans were still abundant, farmland fertile, and aquifers brimming. The jungles seemed limitless. They are the lungs of the planet we used to tell ourselves. The problems could still be avoided.

Now, I am old. Overpopulation is a present problem, not a future one. Most of the problems that were predicted have come true, and even some that weren't predicted. GLOBAL problems have reared their ugly heads: disruption of the carbon cycle, disruption of the nitrogen cycle, continuing radiological contamination. Water shortages. Massive deforestation. Oceanic dead zones. Thru 40 years, we have marched on... despite dire warnings... directly to the cliff, and those in the front are begin pushed over. There are no solutions, people are talking about simply cutting our losses. Humans have consistently bred to- literally- the immediately available carrying capacity, leaving absolutely no cushion. So- how are we more intelligent than termites? The FIX isn't going to come from the latest "app", it's going to come... if it comes at all... from us understanding and controlling ourselves and our societal development.

If I look into myself... and you look into yourself... and NIKI looks into her self... and BYTE into herself... we will see the germs of the problem right there.

*coffee klatch or coffee klatsch also kaf·fee·klatsch (k f -kl ch , -kläch , kô f -). n. A casual social gathering for coffee and conversation.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 9:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Also clearly, this conversation is no longer useful to anyone.

Then take a bow, BYTE, for making it so dysfunctional with your complete and total self-absorption. Because out of all of the words you posted? About 5% have to do with the problem at-hand.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 9:29 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FREM- I hope you're right. Because, so far, the steamroller hasn't swerved much from its original path in something like 30 years.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 10:39 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is all about taking power from the powerful, because the powerful will never willingly give it up: That's why they're TPTB. Right?

There is a book out that says Millionaires run the US government. Does that matter? Book says yes.

Nicholas Carnes wrote on January 7 www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/01/07/millionaires-ru
n-our-government-heres-why-that-matters/

If millionaires in the United States formed their own political party, that party would make up just 3 percent of the country, but it would have a majority in the House of Representatives, a filibuster-proof super-majority in the Senate, a 5 to 4 majority on the Supreme Court and a man in the White House. If working-class Americans — people with manual-labor and service-industry jobs — were a political party, that party would have made up more than half of the country since the start of the 20th century, but its legislators (those who last worked in blue-collar jobs before getting into politics) would never have held more than 2 percent of the seats in Congress.

Then again, government by the rich may be what the American people want.

The virtual absence of an entire class of people from our political institutions affects economic policy. Several major conservative economic victories — including the regressive 2001 Bush tax cuts (which didn’t receive a single vote from a legislator with significant experience in working-class jobs) — probably wouldn’t have passed if Congress had been made up of the same mix of classes as the nation it represents.

Government by the upper class promotes government for the upper class — and makes life harder for the classes of Americans who can least afford it.

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/01/07/millionaires-ru
n-our-government-heres-why-that-matters/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Government by the rich is not what the American people want, but it is what they are (for the most part) given as a choice.

I watched an interesting documentary about Georgia, about Mikheil Saakashvili, elected third President. He started out being a "populist" and wound up being a corrupt warmonger. After starting a war with Russian, defeat in Ossetia, and great internal turmoil, the Georgians were presented with yet another candidate: Bidzina Ivanishvili, billionaire. It gave me a stark outside view of how democracy fails: If you are consistently presented with choices that make absolutely no positive difference- like Obama versus Romney- over a few decades participation will decline.

I personally was a big believer in democracy until GWB stole the elections, and my faith in democracy declined more with Obama, who has progressed even further than GWB and Clinton into completely subverting "the will of the people" . It's clear that our political system has been completely hijacked by money, as has our media. So being older and more cynical now, I've come to the idea that democracy doesn't work in a milieu of economic disparity. As an aside: If you want to see what finger-puppets our politicians are, just look at what speech is allowed against Obama versus the corporations. It's OK to print signs of Obama in a bull's eye because that's "free speech". Try doing that with Jamie Diamon, and be branded as an "economic terrorist".

More than that, I think that the whole system is geared towards the unsustainable and unrealistic. We should never have a function called "President" or "Chairman" or "CEO". Any time you put executive authority in the hands of a single person, you are making authoritarianism inevitable.

You should not have people "running for office", because generally the more corrupt will win. How about appointment by lottery?

The media is a huge problem. The subconscious messages embedded in both the medium and the message are: Passivity. Only the most current is important. Only the rich or famous are worthy of notice. Everything is resolved in 30 (or 60) minutes. It's All About You (but only as a consumer). A Hero Will Save Us. Righteous Individual Violence Is The Answer. Positive attitude will carry you thru.

NONE of these messages are empowering or realistic for the average person.

I could go on and on, but I seem to be the only person here in this thread making any contributions to the topic What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society? (assuming we ever were one). I've done blue-sky thinking and made on-the-ground suggestions. Where is everyone else? I'm tired of being the only one coming up with ideas.

Hearts and heads not in the right place? People not REALLY looking for ideas?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
" Therefore you're talking about being so old yet you can totally still fight."

Are you REALLY as stupid as rappy? Go and read my posts. Tell me where I said I could 'totally fight'.

I dare you.

Right here.

Quote:
Hmmm - did I say I wasn't going to be doing anything?

Which I never accused you of in the first place. But that is something that says "I'm still fighting."

This entire conversation has been so full of misunderstanding and strawmen that it would behoove both of us to disengage. I know that I have obviously touched a nerve. So I'm not going to argue with you at the moment because I don't know the exact basis of your vitriol.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Then take a bow, BYTE, for making it so dysfunctional with your complete and total self-absorption. Because out of all of the words you posted? About 5% have to do with the problem at-hand.

No problem, happy to oblige.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Are you REALLY as stupid as rappy? Go and read my posts. Tell me where I said I could 'totally fight'. I dare you.- KIKI

Right here: "Hmmm - did I say I wasn't going to be doing anything?" Which I never accused you of in the first place. But that is something that says "I'm still fighting."

There is a difference between "totally fight" and "I'll still be doing something". The misunderstanding seems to be on your part.

Quote:
Then take a bow, BYTE, for making it so dysfunctional with your complete and total self-absorption. Because out of all of the words you posted? About 5% have to do with the problem at-hand.-signy

No problem, happy to oblige.-byte

Of course. Because It's All About You. I will not engage in further discussions with you about yourself. OTOH, I'll be all too happy to talk ABOUT you, just like I do about rappy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:36 PM

Quote:
There is a difference between "totally fight" and "I'll still be doing something".

There really isn't.

Quote:
Of course. Because It's All About You. I will not engage in further discussions with you about yourself. OTOH, I'll be all too happy to talk ABOUT you, just like I do about rappy.

I imagine that will be just as constructive as your attacks on the younger generation and the uselessness and stupidity of them all.

Go to town. I don't care what you all think about me. You needed to be called out, I called you out. An echo chamber can hardly be a revolution.

Quote:
I could go on and on, but I seem to be the only person here in this thread making any contributions to the topic What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society? (assuming we ever were one). I've done blue-sky thinking and made on-the-ground suggestions. Where is everyone else? I'm tired of being the only one coming up with ideas.

Hearts and heads not in the right place? People not REALLY looking for ideas?

Yeah you're the only one doing anything or coming up with ideas. Not Frem, or Niki, or Magons. Or 1kiki. Or anyone else. Or me. Anyway, I gotta go do some "it's all about me" stuff.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 12:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There is a difference between "totally fight" and "I'll still be doing something". -signy

There really isn't.-byte

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand...

In the EU, regions are beginning to print their own local currencies.

http://rt.com/business/france-currency-alternative-euro-415/

I believe I've already mentioned this as a necessary part of creating a better society, yes? And no, Bitcoins are not going to hack it: they are too few, like any asset can be hoarded by the wealthy, and can only serve as a speculative asset. But as an alternate or "complementary" currency... the more the merrier!

As far as ideas are concerned... Ideas are CHEAP. Much cheaper than action. But they seem to be in short supply. So what I wonder is - WHY is this topic is such a problem? I think Magons touched on it earlier: it seems so hopeless. And, yanno, we mostly run on emotion (the word "motion" is the root word, as is "motivate" which means "to cause to move". Emotions prompt us to take action. But OTOH, we then often wind up responding to our emotions, and not the the reality at-hand. Not a good situation to be in.) It's pretty hard to look at something so awful, so big, so out of control, so dangerous. It's even harder to think of ways around it or thru it. It's difficult for me. That's why I keep posting "big topic" kind of answers. I hope that some of the thoughts that I pass along (only some of which are mine) will spark some thoughts in others. It seems not the case.

I apologize for my frustration with the situation spilling out onto everyone. It is not productive, and I let my emotions get the better of me. I'll endeavor to stick to the topic in the future.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 1:26 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Government by the rich is not what the American people want, but it is what they are (for the most part) given as a choice.

You should not have people "running for office", because generally the more corrupt will win. How about appointment by lottery?

I seem to be the only person here in this thread making any contributions to the topic What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?

It is a longstanding, yet solvable small problem. Think of it as a painful tooth that sorely needs an Endodontic specialist. Why should we suffer from it forever? Does tradition perhaps justifies never fixing it? Political observers in the United States have always worried about the effects of government by the rich. During the Founding, Anti-Federalists warned that the Constitution would create a government of wealthy merchants that would “consist . . . of men who will have no congenial feelings with the people, but a perfect indifference for, and contempt of them.” www.constitution.org/afp/pennmi00.htm

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 2:03 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

SECOND- thank you for engaging in the topic.

Here is the problem as I see it: Revolutions only work for a short while. Human society doesn't work like some obvious natural phenomena: money doesn't diffuse like gas, and power doesn't flow downhill. Human society seems to follow different rules. One rule seems to be that ANY imbalance in power, over time, creates springboard to even greater imbalance later. It's happened in civilization after civilization: leaders become chieftains, and chieftains become lords, and lords become monarchs, and monarchs become emperors. In this latest version, our energy is commandeered by a concept called "money". The wealthy control the money. They buy the media. They buy the government, the rules, and the soldiers to go with it, and are able to direct production (or lack of production). Like all powers, they create a new morality which lionizes their attributes: greed and callousness.

It's as if any organization or group that we create behaves LIKE A SPECIES in our human ecology. It has an internal structure. It has food. It lives, it grows, it fights for survival, and eventually it is displaced, morphs, or dies.

The "food source" of any organization seems to be energy - whether human labor or electricity or steam doesn't seem to matter. Whichever organization can commandeer the greatest amount of energy the fastest "wins".... it gets to grow faster than other organizations. That doesn't mean it's sustainable, and many organizations (we call them "empires") have in fact died from being too big, and other have died from stripping their environment bare. So there is a huge flaw in thinking that the "evolutionary" development of human society is a good model because it leads to dead ends and possibly the extinction of the human species. (It's certainly leading to the extinction of a lot of other species.)

The problem is, except for nature giving us and our organizations a catastrophic whack on the head every now and again, there don't seem to be many self-correcting processes. Even democracy seems to have been only briefly effective (if at all). Some societies seemed to have achieved ecological, economic, and political stability (Mohenjo-Daro, the Minoans, some Pacific Islanders, some extant matriarchies in the Himalayas, and possibly some early civilizations in S America) but whatever magic "key" they have discovered I don't know what that was. The question I have been asking myself (and others) is: What can we do to ENSURE that money and power don't concentrate in the future? How do we make it automatic, because humans are piss-poor at vigilance and are not the cussed individualists that most people assume. Most folks are willing, mostly, to just go along with whatever big organizations exist because big organizations have their technological and division-of-labor benefits.

I have not found that answer yet, and (unlike Libertarians) I'm not willing to assume that an answer will "somehow" develop, absent a demonstrated mechanism. So, I know this is prolly far, far more than you anticipated setting off. It addresses What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society? in the very broadest sense. But thanks for listening. You have helped me clarify some thoughts.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 2:47 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND- thank you for engaging in the topic.

The question I have been asking myself (and others) is: What can we do to ENSURE that money and power don't concentrate in the future? How do we make it automatic, because humans are piss-poor at vigilance and are willing to mainly just go along with whatever big organizations exist. And big organizations have their technological and division-of-labor benefits.

How to make it automatic? That is a hopeless dream because one side is energetically plotting against you and using all its wits to defeat you.

The rich have a wonderful advantage over liberals in getting what they want from government – they can signal one to another with money. It is a generous tit-for-tat strategy – you make me rich, I'll make you rich. And, all by itself, the accumulation of money seems to energize the rich.

Liberals have nothing like that. They have so many more complex wants than simply money. It's hard for liberals to cooperate with each other because they don't have the same rugged signaling system as the rich.

Liberals rest. Rich are restless. All of which makes it easy for a rich minority to get their way against the majority. Not all the time about everything, but most of the time for what really is important to the rich: money.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 3:12 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think this is about so much more than the rich versus the liberals. At one time, it was the peasants versus Pharaohs. (There was a revolt in ancient Egypt which tore down the entire dynastic system. But since there was nothing to replace it with, the ruling structure was rebuilt in 100 years). The peasants versus the monarchs or the emperor. Then it was about the feudalists versus the merchants.

There are, I think, certain systemic trends that are inbuilt, an interaction of human nature (in its broadest sense) with energy and technology trends.

Humans generally strive for maximum reward for minimum work. Humans are also, for the most part, a social species- occurring in groups. Living at a primitive level, in some climates... it's just a friggin' lot of hard work. But once you can harness more than human energy (thanks RUE) the situation changes... you can develop a surplus. Division of labor is possible. The greater the technology, the greater the division of labor... but the larger and larger groups people are economically drawn into. The drive, as I see it, it always towards larger groups, unless some outside event reverses it.

Those groups are far greater than our "monkeysphere" (thanks FREM). We have no way of automatically handling parasitic or predatory groups. So our economic (reward based) behavior leads us into situations which we don't have an answer for.

Anyway, the point is that I think this is far beyond specific groups and involves energy dynamics, entropy, technology, and fundamental human responses and capabilities.

Needs more thought.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 3:47 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think this is about so much more than the rich versus the liberals.

. . . So our economic (reward based) behavior leads us into situations which we don't have an answer for.

Anyway, the point is that I think this is far beyond specific groups and involves energy dynamics, entropy, technology, and fundamental human responses and capabilities.

Needs more thought.

How about a smaller problem that can be solved, but hasn't because you-know-who insists that it can only be solved by their idiosyncratic methods?

The anti-poverty agenda is still all about getting those layabouts to go to work and stop living off welfare. The reality that lower-end jobs, even if you can get one, don’t pay enough to lift you out of poverty just hasn’t sunk in. And the idea of helping the poor by actually helping them remains anathema, which is to be expected of programs designed to please the wealthy with mental shortcomings and sincere peculiarities. www.salon.com/2014/01/07/how_to_explain_the_rights_every_move_their_un
willingness_to_help_poor_people/

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 5:26 PM

Signy, I understand that you were bringing up what Byte said on another thread, but you didn't link to it or quote it, so I read through what had been argued back and forth on this thread. That is why I phrased it the way that I did.

I don't feel the need to be even handed. I support Byte's view of things in this instance more than I do yours.

I suggest that Edward De Bono was on the right track in his discourse on western debate. http://www.edwdebono.com/book/1021

As typified by this discussion.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, January 10, 2014 9:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
The problem is, except for nature giving us and our organizations a catastrophic whack on the head every now and again, there don't seem to be many self-correcting processes. Even democracy seems to have been only briefly effective (if at all). Some societies seemed to have achieved ecological, economic, and political stability (Mohenjo-Daro, the Minoans, some Pacific Islanders, some extant matriarchies in the Himalayas, and possibly some early civilizations in S America) but whatever magic "key" they have discovered I don't know what that was.

Empathy.

Tis why crushing it out of our children via our brutal "educational" and childrearing systems is the greatest disservice to our species.

Quote:
Those groups are far greater than our "monkeysphere" (thanks FREM). We have no way of automatically handling parasitic or predatory groups. So our economic (reward based) behavior leads us into situations which we don't have an answer for.

Sometimes, you *need* a VILLAIN, someone willing to infiltrate and tear them apart from within, to dive down into the gutter with the beast and strangle it, or shank it from behind in the darkness, stuff "heroic" kinda folk will not, can not do.

And Nature does provide them, as well as the Visionaries that guide and support, but our current so-called-society more or less murders them in the crib via labelling them as mentally ill, coercing or medicating them into compliance, and if that doesn't work, off to the hellcamps with em.

See, folks like to talk about what happened if you capped this or that insane meglomaniac before they came to power, but lets flip that around - what if Ghandi was beaten to submission as a child, what if Mother Theresa was medicated into an asylum ?
Because that is what we did, we crushed our Visionaries before they ever came to be, that's what this society DOES, and it does so on purpose to maintain a disastrous status quo which benefits the few at the expense of the many, but such a system is by its very nature doomed to stagnate and implode, because Darkhearted cannot be crushed, and will "become" in ever growing numbers because in their very efforts to prevent Visionaries, the powers that be *create* Darkhearted, and they tend to multiply exponentionally like a form of psychological contagion when things start getting nasty, because it takes a *LOT* to finish one off, and the collateral damage inevitably breeds a couple more.

That's what revolts and revolutions ARE, really, a breakpoint of Darkhearted going for the throat and the rest of the people deciding to roll with it, the social dynamics of concentrated power make it effectively a ponzi scheme which also creates its own opposition by the actions it MUST take to concentrate that power.

Matter. Of. Time.

And the bright spot to it is that humanity is actually getting BETTER at solving social issues with less or even no violence, but I don't think we're quite there just yet, nope.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, January 11, 2014 1:41 AM