Stealth Health - for Siggy! by FREMDFIRMA

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Because we're not equipped to eat sufficient quantities of bacteria and archaebacteria to get enough B12.

Ruminants (cows, bison, buffalo, goats, antelopes, sheep, deer, and giraffes) get their B12 from the friendly bacteria in their multiple stomachs. The bacteria eat the grass and the ruminants digest the bacteria ... eeeewwww. (But FWIW - and this is a complete aside - bacteria also make strange fatty acids. And those fatty acids show up in ruminant milk and meat.) Horses, elephants, zebras, rabbits, hares, and many rodents have large appendixes where bacteria make B12. Rabbits, hares and some other rodents eat their poop to ingest the B12 made by the bacteria in their large intestine. And B12 concentrates up the food chain.

As for B12 and the blood-brain barrier, I did go looking for that specifically, but didn't find anything whne it comes to normal function.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I still don't understand how eating animals makes any difference in vitamin B-12 in that case.

And what I read is that the absorption is still not much to speak of even if your system is working. My understanding is that Alzheimer's and dementia patients have normal amounts of vitamin B-12 in their serum, but the blood brain barrier doesn't allow much uptake into the brain.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:42 PM

Ah. I'm afraid that my comment about the pop nutrition pseudoscience has some context outside the thread. You said once that because I was vegan I'm in danger of b-12 deficiency induced insanity of some sort.

It was a while ago, but it still hit me the wrong way, like when someone pointedly asks if someone is off their meds to be mean. That's something I don't like and there was recently a thing where Niki thought I was asking that and I didn't mean that at all. Anyway.

I didn't actually mean to suggest that a certain balance in vitamins isn't neccessary. I have only meant to sugest there are a number of ways that might achieve that balance.

Although to be honest I actually do have some doubts about omega 3s in some capacities, such as the purportive protective effects of it against heart issues and cancers. When I feel like the benefits of something are being overstated, I get a little cranky.

There is some pseudoscientific studies about health and diets, though, you must admit. I get very annoyed by constant reports about how "chocolate is actually a superfood and it's really good for you oh wait no it isn't."

And no, I honestly hadn't heard of the middle east zinc deficiency thing or the iodine thing before this thread. I only started to look into it myself after your post, and if you mentioned it before in this thread or on the board I missed it.

I also didn't realize that omega 3s were in anything other than fish. So rather than thinking it was less essential because it could come from a lot of sources, I thought it was less essential because I didn't realize how ubiquitous it is.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:51 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"You said once that because I was vegan I'm in danger of b-12 deficiency induced insanity of some sort."

Well, ahem - it's sadly a possibility. Please understand, while I'm probably on the Asperger's side of the continuum, I have some empathy that comes out mainly as protectiveness. My post was out of (probably intrusive and unwanted) concern.

AS for the ME zinc-thing --- I spent a lot of time studying human dietary requirements b/c I thought it would be instructive in figuring out our evolution. It turns out other people had that idea and did it far better than I did ... but I got and read lots and lots of books chock full of research papers and symposia on the topic ... and came across many very interesting (to me) tidbits like that.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Because we're not equipped to eat sufficient quantities of bacteria and archaebacteria to get enough B12.

Ruminants (cows, bison, buffalo, goats, antelopes, sheep, deer, and giraffes) get their B12 from the friendly bacteria in their multiple stomachs. The bacteria eat the grass and the ruminants digest the bacteria ... eeeewwww. (But FWIW - and this is a complete aside - bacteria also make strange fatty acids. And those fatty acids show up in ruminant milk and meat.) Horses, elephants, zebras, rabbits, hares, and many rodents have large appendixes where bacteria make B12. Rabbits, hares and some other rodents eat their poop to ingest the B12 made by the bacteria in their large intestine. And B12 concentrates up the food chain.

As for B12 and the blood-brain barrier, I did go looking for that specifically, but didn't find anything whne it comes to normal function.
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I still don't understand how eating animals makes any difference in vitamin B-12 in that case.

And what I read is that the absorption is still not much to speak of even if your system is working. My understanding is that Alzheimer's and dementia patients have normal amounts of vitamin B-12 in their serum, but the blood brain barrier doesn't allow much uptake into the brain.

Right, I know it bioaccumulates. What I don't understand is if it's trace amounts and poor absorption from even large oral doses, then why is eating animal meat or products essential for vitamin B-12 when it's not as concentrated a source as a supplement?

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:57 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"why is eating animal essential for vitamin B-12"

If you can get a bioreactor going and grow the bacteria and archaebacteria that make B12 you could chug it that way. Plants don't make B12. Nor do fungi. Only bacteria and archaebacteria make it. Since we don't harbor the little critters that make it in our digestive tract we have to consume it. And since we don't consume those little critters directly, we have to consume the things that do consume them - at least, that's how it was in our pre-technological past.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 2:59 PM

But the supplements can't compensate for the animal products?

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:07 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

They can for B12. They can for omega-3s. They can for anything we know about. I just think there are probably things we don't know about that we are adapted to need, that come along with. IMHO

But that's why I was interested in trying to untangle our evolution.

Well, for one thing the Desmond Morris theory and others like it truly irked me. A lot of our behaviors were predicated on assumed environments for which there is very little evidence.

But also, b/c I find it fascinating in itself. To understand where we came from and be able to relate it to what we need as a species. It's very complicated. There are many unknowns. Just a thing I find interesting.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:46 PM

Okay. :)

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Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Would you say that about gravity? That somehow gravity doesn't apply to us just BECAUSE we're people? Not that we can't develop machines that fly, but that we are exempt from gravity completely? Is that true?

We haven't broken the rules yet. We're just working on it.

I have every confidence that we might someday, though probably not in my lifetime.

Erm, bit late on the draw there - Thomas Townsend Brown broke that one back in the 20's when he gave us the Biefeld–Brown effect, although it is kind of a cheat if you know how it works.

-F

...???

Oh, ionic propulsion, unless I'm missing something about the theory here. Government documents seem to refer to it as something to do with gravity but I don't understand the connection.

This is from wikipedia so it might be censored or redacted.

I will look into this more, perhaps I can figure out what you're referring to before you tell me.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2013 12:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Unfortunately a lot of the relative information is of debateable utility being posted by non-science people who don't truly understand how it freakin works and have preconceptions which make it harder to even explain to them, argh.

Basically BB effect is a primitive variant of the DS1 Ion Engine, but there WAS some decent electrogravitic research under PROJECT WINTERHAVEN which has since been declassified - nobody has revisited it seriously with moden metallurgy and ceramic though... one aspect of it is charged wing leading edges as a form of stealth tech to minimize sonic booms, and (rumor only, this) potentially elimination OF that boom in the now abandoned and never quite admitted TR3 Aurora project.

One of the problems with following up on TT Browns later research is how he buried and obfuscated a lot of it, see he was involved with Philadelphia in Newport News, and when the involved scientists started conveniently dropping dead left and right he decided to get the hell out of dodge in a hurry and moved on to Switzerland, and subsequently became reclusive, but between his own obfuscation, deliberate misinformation by the navy, and the convenient death of most others involved, getting any FACTS out of the whole mess is all but impossible.

One amusing and persistent urban myth, which I don't give much credence to, but find entertaining as potential story fodder is "Dora".
(named for the Mittlebau camp prisoners who were supposedly worked to death and or killed to protect the secret)
Now the Germans had some rather interesting designs on the table, Die Glocke, the VRIL and Haunebu, and suchlike, but so late in the war with supplies running short and working in improvised workships its pretty unlikely they got any of them build even in concept.

But the "Dora" story was of a functional, saucer shaped craft running on a high energy electomag basis similar to TT Browns engines powered by a primitive sodium reactor, which also had bizarre side effects like causing aurora borealis and microrifts with the potential to explode as energies from incompatible universes encountered each other, not to mention the more mundane dangers of radiation poisoning, getting fragged by exploding transformers and the like - but functional ENOUGH for a select group of the high command and their shock troops to escape to antarctica.

Complete bollocks mind you - but given that some of the late-war "wonder weapons" were SO ridiculously advanced that we and others we unable to actually produce them till the 1950s(1) or later despite having jacked both the designs and the scientists, for it's time that rumor persisted and served to make some quite interesting stories in fiction (even David Drake pitched in a couple), and also gave us the hilarious bit of camp that is Iron Sky.

(1) - Yah, we stole a lot of it, and we were not alone in that, both the F86 Sabre and the Mig15 are rather blatantly ripped off the Focke-Wulf Ta-183 prototype (nonfunctional) and design work, and our flying wing type bombers incorporated much from the original Horten and Gotha designs.

There's also many lingering questions about the SR71, given just how technologically out of place the damn thing is, but since that pissant McNamara had the original tooling and design work destroyed cause it was in competition with his own (ludicrously LESS effective) pet projects, we'll likely never know.

-Frem

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Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:44 AM

Quote:
But the "Dora" story was of a functional, saucer shaped craft running on a high energy electomag basis similar to TT Browns engines powered by a primitive sodium reactor, which also had bizarre side effects like causing aurora borealis and microrifts with the potential to explode as energies from incompatible universes encountered each other, not to mention the more mundane dangers of radiation poisoning, getting fragged by exploding transformers and the like - but functional ENOUGH for a select group of the high command and their shock troops to escape to antarctica.

*blink*

Quote:
Complete bollocks mind you

Whew okay. I'm still trying to figure out how much of this is real and the veracity of an actual electrogravity effect.

I could see auroras being produced, because auroras are ions and high altitudes they might trigger much the same reaction. But micro-rifts and incompatible universes? I confess myself a little more dubious on that front.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Same here, but it made for an interesting story basis for some fiction authors.

What's kinda scary is just how crazy, crackbrained, yet remarkably effective some of that late war tech COULD have been, if they'd ever gotten the kinks out - case in point the Me163B armed with Jagdfaust launchers - too damn fast to catch, much less even fight, and all they had to do was fly under a bomber and let the photocell-triggered Jagdfaust do the rest.
Of course, there was this wee little problem with actually safely LANDING one of those nasty little hornets... musta been one hell of a ride though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdfaust

-Frem

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Wednesday, August 21, 2013 11:38 AM

I'm going to continue looking, but off hand it still seems like ionic propulsion to me. Townsend mentioned some sort of interaction with earth gravitational field, but I don't yet see the context of what he was doing at the time or how he measured that. Low pressure experiments apparently detect some force still, or maybe even an entirely different force, but no effect is observed in a vacuum.

If there is another force it sounds to me like induction and magnetism - if that is even something that happens, as various experiments on this phenomena seem to get mixed results. Could the effect be sensitive to the Earth's magnetic field? But on the other hand you'd THINK they'd have accounted for the possibility of induction.

Other explanations beyond ion propulsion or induced magnetism, perhaps involving superconductive behaviour of the resulting ion cloud interacting with the object, or photon interactions with the ions or electrons, or quantum mechanic funniness, like a division between inertial and gravitation mass, or something like the atom trampoline, seem needlessly exotic. Especially in view of the non-functioning in a vacuum.

I need to know more to rule out the more outlandish possibilities though.

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 8:47 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Most Toxic Food in the World? Farmed Salmon.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/farmed-salmon-most-toxic-f
ood/

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 10:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I know, right?

I see ppl eating farmed salmon bc "salmon is healthy" and I hate to burst their bubble, so I don't. One woman who worked for me was concerned about health, so she ate a lot of (farmed) salmon and soy. Terrible choices!

I knew another woman who was a (stupid) vegan, and SHE believed that all she needed to do was eat fruit. My god, the woman was emotionally deranged, a complete basket case. She died very young of a heart attack.

I take to heart KIKI's comment that we are OBLIGATE OMNIVORES: Due to our biochemistry (we can't make our own B12 and Vita C) we MUST eat both fish/meat AND fruits/veggies high in vitamin C.

We don't know our own biochemistry, not at the basic level and definitely not at the individual level. (An Army study on nutritional requirements showed a 10,000-fold difference between individuals for one vitamin. the summary didn't say which one) and we don't even know what's in our food (just look at the explosion of interest in te various trace components like polyphenols, fibers, resistant starches, and "colors" like lycopenes and anthocyanins) so how can we create something when we don't know our target?

Anyway, organic veggies and fruits, wild-caught seafood, and grass-fed grazers, just like in nature. All very expensive. Hardly anyone can afford it.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 11:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I don't think I've had any real food since around the late 90's.

This is another byproduct of overpopulation. It's really a necessity at this point.

--------------------------------------------------

Me: "Remember Covid?"

Useless Idiots: "What's Covid, durr? Russia, Ukraine, Putin, NATO *drool*. DURRRR!!!!"

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 11:47 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, if it's a priority and if people have any sort of yard at all, unless it's irremediably contaminated with lead or PCBs or some other persistent pollutant, there's no excuse for people not having access to SOME "real food".

I hear about poor, inner-city neighborhoods being awash with fast food and how fresh veggies and eggs are impossible to find, and I read about how young people don't hve jobs and I can't help but wonder why they don't turn any of that spare time into growing food. I mean, even if I'm renting, I wouldn't plant any fruit trees but I can can still plant a garden. There's an awful lot of unused potential in urban and suburban gardening/farming.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 11:52 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

That's all true, but though I think the idea is great I don't really see it happening.

I'm as big of an offender on this subject as anybody else is. My back yard is huge, and I don't do it. I had set up a raised garden many years back and only used it one year with a basically failed tomato crop and then let it fall into disrepair until I finally removed it last summer.

If you don't enjoy doing something, it's really hard to start forming that habit. I find no pleasure in gardening. And at the end of the day it's not like I make the most healthy choices anyhow. I'm a lot better than I used to be for sure, but I've still left myself with large room for improvement with things that are objectively easier than learning how to get good at gardening and lying to myself about enjoying it.

--------------------------------------------------

Me: "Remember Covid?"

Useless Idiots: "What's Covid, durr? Russia, Ukraine, Putin, NATO *drool*. DURRRR!!!!"

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 12:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, a lot of ppl do things that aren't enjoyable. My mom was a relentless worker. When she wasn't working (as a nurse) she was cooking, cleaning, darning socks (yep! "back in the day" people mended socks!), sewing, knitting or crocheting.

She roped us into housework and cooking early!!! I have to say, cooking, cleaning, and nutrition and self-care "stuck".

Dad was also a relentless worker ... not as constant as mom, but HIS "spare time" work was household budgeting (he was an accountant by training) home maintenance, yardwork, and gardening. HE roped us into lawn-mowing/leaf raking/ snow-shoveling early! And each of us had a small piece of garden where we could plant what we wanted.

So, from him, saving money, yardwork and gardening "stuck".

So I would say, if you have kids get them started early.

I try that with daughter- she helps me with yardwork and gardening, and in return we plant some of what she likes... zucchini, whatever flowers interest her, cucumbers etc.

In YOUR case, SIX, you have many talents too! So if you can find someone whose avocation is gardening, maybe you can swap efforts.

*****

Yardwork and gardening is, for me, therapeutic. Kind of like doing dishes, but better exercise. (Unless its too hot. But then, I should make an effort to get out earlier.) I like seeing order emerge from a mess, being outdoors and getting my heart pumping. I'm really looking forward to being healthy again ... funny thing is, the chemo seems to have dialed my "chronic pain syndrome" back quite a bit, and when I'm done with the very active part of treatment, if it comes back I will definitely pursue with my rheumatologist, I think there's lessons to be learned there, Pain was really limiting me before I was dx'd... anyway, looking forward to getting out there again!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

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Sunday, March 6, 2022 12:27 PM