REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Sunday, January 20, 2013 15:56
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Thursday, December 27, 2012 1:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Thought I would start a new thread that could take us away from gun topics and into wider discussions.

Discuss as you will.

Here is my contribution.

Clerics who blame women for being victims of violence.

Quote:

Women bring violence on themselves: priest

Date
December 28, 2012 - 5:55AM


A Catholic priest has sparked outrage in Italy by claiming women bring domestic violence on themselves by dressing provocatively and neglecting housework, Italian media report.

"How often do we see girls and mature women going around scantily dressed and in provocative clothes?" Piero Corsi said in a Christmas message posted on the door of his church in the small town of San Terenzio in northwest Italy.

"They provoke the worst instincts, which end in violence or sexual abuse. They should search their consciences and ask: did we bring this on ourselves?" it read.

The leaflet, a copy of which was posted online sparking a wave of outrage across the country, said the 118 women killed in acts of domestic violence in Italy in 2012 had pushed men to their limits.
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"Is it possible that all of a sudden men have gone mad? We don't believe it," Corsi wrote.

"The fact is that women are increasingly provocative, they become arrogant, they believe themselves to be self-sufficient and end up exacerbating the situation," he said.

"Children are abandoned to their own devices, homes are dirty, meals are cold or fast food, clothes are filthy," he added.

The region's bishop, Luigi Ernesto Palletti, stepped in as the story went viral and said Corsi's words were "unacceptable and go against the church's common feeling on the matter".

Amid protests from women's rights and anti-violence campaigners, Corsi was widely reported by Italian media to have apologised to his congregation and handed in his resignation.

He later denied the reports, saying a resignation letter sent to news agencies was "probably a fake", adding that he was going to "take a rest" but had no intention of stepping down.

"I don't know whether you're a queer or not, but what do you feel when you see a naked woman?" he asked a reporter for Rai Radio.

"Are women themselves not causing harm by unveiling themselves like this?"

The mayor of San Terenzio said the message had left the town's residents "dumbfounded and indignant", while an elderly female resident told Sky Italia television that Corsi "should keep a low profile as he has lots of secrets he would not wish to come out".



Reminds me of the Muslim cleric in Australia who said something similar a few years ago.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women
-for-sex-attacks/story-e6frg6nf-1111112419114


And then there are increasing numbers of gang rapes on women in India. This woman was blamed as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/why-india-bad-for-women

The best bit was that a local news cameraman filmed it for 45 minutes without intervening.

And in Scotland

http://aberdeenvoice.com/2012/11/students-attack-victim-blaming-cultur
e-around-sexual-violence
/

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Thursday, December 27, 2012 10:50 PM

CANTTAKESKY


There are people who, when confronted with repressed urges, will resort to violence, because they have learned violence as an acceptable method of coping. Lots of sick puppies out there.

On the other hand, I hesitate to read "don't walk alone" as a subtle form of blaming the victim. There are certain things that are just common sense, given the imperfect world we live in. It's like "lock your door," or "put on your seatbelt." Don't wear low necklines or kiss your gay boyfriend in Muslim countries or fundie churches. Don't flaunt your interracial relationship at a KKK rally. There are people who don't know how to handle that. If you know some people are weak and/or wrong in certain areas, don't push their buttons, just because you think they ought not to have those buttons. I'm not saying if you provoke them, you deserve what you get. But it makes sense to not provoke them or give them an opportunity/excuse to go nuts until you're sure you can be safe.



-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 4:19 AM

HERO


I have a large amount of experiance handling Domestic Violence cases and I've had the privilage of working with some great women from the Rape Crisis Center, DOVE program, and Victim's Assistance. Here's what I've learned:

Do women bring the violence upon themselves? Yes, yes they do.

Is it because they dress sexy or act slutty? No.

Why? Its because they make really, really stupid choices.

First of all they choose to date and/or marry violent assholes. Make no mistake, 9 times out of 10 they know that person well enough to know they get violent, yet they choose to pursue or continue the relationship anyway.

Second, they don't protect themselves. Guy hits girl, girl forgives guy, guy hits girl, girl forgives guy, guy hits girl, police called and guy arrested, girl forgives guy and asks me to drop charges, guy hits girl...

The first time they hit a woman the woman should END the relationship. Marriage, kids, whatever it is OVER. If you choose not to then you are responsible for the consequences of that choice.

There are lots of guys out there that don't hit women, so if your with a guy that does hit you...its on you.

Now there are lots of reasons why women stay with men who abuse them. Sometimes they are raised that way, some think they can 'change' the man, some think they deserve it, some think they can't do better. Women need to confront these things head on instead of pretending that this is all on the men.

I encourage my police to document everything on a DV case. Why? Because my best witness will probably flake out.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, December 28, 2012 4:38 AM

HERO


I note for the record that in ten years of prosecuting Domestic Violence cases ALL the female victims have ONE thing in common:

The do not own a firearm. I have NEVER met a women who owns a firearm who has been the victim of Domestic Violence. And I mean really own, as in its their gun, they bought it or have it for themselves. (Not fake own it as in my husband beat the crap out of me and got convicted of DV so he can't own or possess a gun, but I love him so we're back together and he loves to hunt so we'll just say the guns belong to me but golly I don't even know what kind or gun it is or what bullets go in it or anything.)

Lots of the men own weapons. I've taken and destroyed hundreds of guns from the men.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, December 28, 2012 4:48 AM

HERO


I also want to note that Domestic Violence is not only a man to women problem.

Female on male and same sex Domestic Violence is simply poorly reported, poorly document, disrespected, and often ignored. I've found no difference in those few cases that actually proceed to trial. They are identical in nearly every respect to traditional DV's and people should treat them (case and victim alike) with the respect and professionalism they deserve.

I actually had another Prosecutor argue with me that men could NOT be victims of Domestic Violence unless they are gay. That's just stupid, typical stupid bias attitudes that sometimes enter into gender and race discussions.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, December 28, 2012 5:13 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
There are lots of guys out there that don't hit women, so if your with a guy that does hit you...its on you.


Does all the blame go to the woman? No. This is not a 50-50 or 70-30 kind of event. There's responsibility on both sides.

If a woman chooses to stay with an abuser, she's 100% responsible for getting abused. If a man chooses to abuse a woman, he's 100% responsible for abusing the woman.

Keep in mind that while I prefer to prosecute the person who committed the abuse I have and will prosecute the victim for taking actions that allow the abuse to continue.

What!?! How?

Yep, man beats woman. Police respond. Woman says man beat me. In Court woman says man didn't beat me, 'I fell down' or 'police made me write that statement', they love that one...none of which does not explain my bloody knose and bruises. Charges dismissed against man, charges for Falsification filed against woman. Why? Because she either lied in court or lied to the police, either way she lied and that is a crime. BTW, a conviction for Falsification kills her credibilty for any future DV claim (the 'bitch be lie'n' defense).

You should also consider that Juries, for whatever reason, hate Domestic Violence cases. Had a guy kick in a locked door to his baby momma ex-girlfriend's house and go after her with a chef's knife (a big, heavy kitchen knife, razor sharp with an 11" blade, really, like a $500 knife, nicest knife I've seen except on Iron Chef). The Defense was the classic 'bitch deserved it' defense...also known as 'blame the victim'. Jury hung...5-3 for Not Guilty. All three men wanted to convict. My nice moms, nurse, school teachers said 'she really did deserve it'. Go figure.

Had a Jury tell me once on a Not Guilty, yes she was assaulted and yes, he pulled her hair out by the roots, but we think she embellished how much it really hurt (in other words, you proved your case, but we're going to ignore that). That from a trial with the most compelling victim testimony I've ever had. I even had her hair as evidence. Blood, bruises, medical records, a proven history of violence, really great pictures...Not Guilty. I've won more then my share, but losses like this piss me off. I reported her husband to Homeland Security after the trial was over...that made me feel better.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, December 28, 2012 5:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I think you're scoping this discussion a little too narrowly, HERO. Males, in general, are more violent than women in almost ALL societies. But males are also violent against other males, and males also suffer from high victim-hood rates due to other males.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, I got about as far as "A Catholic priest" and knew what the rest would be. Scanned a bit, but haven't had my breakfast yet, so reading the whole thing would make me gag.

Bear in mind the whole Catholic church is centered around the idea of keeping women DOWN, and always hsa been, so there's no surprise there.

Doesn't mean it isn't sick, because it is. But I expect no less.

Any chance we can get back to the original discussion, or has the non-hero, non-lawyer taken over the entire thread?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:13 AM

BYTEMITE


Conclusion: it happens everywhere.

Alternate conclusion: teach all women to kick major amounts of ass.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:16 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
There are people who, when confronted with repressed urges, will resort to violence, because they have learned violence as an acceptable method of coping. Lots of sick puppies out there.

On the other hand, I hesitate to read "don't walk alone" as a subtle form of blaming the victim. There are certain things that are just common sense, given the imperfect world we live in. It's like "lock your door," or "put on your seatbelt." Don't wear low necklines or kiss your gay boyfriend in Muslim countries or fundie churches. Don't flaunt your interracial relationship at a KKK rally. There are people who don't know how to handle that. If you know some people are weak and/or wrong in certain areas, don't push their buttons, just because you think they ought not to have those buttons. I'm not saying if you provoke them, you deserve what you get. But it makes sense to not provoke them or give them an opportunity/excuse to go nuts until you're sure you can be safe.





On the other hand, I am A-OK with gay couples kissing each other on the lawn outside the Mormon temple. Sometimes they get arrested, but for seriously - Flaunt that! Go guys! (and girls)

Although if they start slobbering down each other's throats or the hands go anywhere near the backside, thigh, or down the pants area, I'm... gonna go somewhere else. XP

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:21 AM

CHRISISALL


All I'll say is that well-taught martial arts classes are a good thing.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:30 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Interesting insights Hero.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Conclusion: it happens everywhere. Alternate conclusion: teach all women to kick major amounts of ass.
Teach all women to depend on each other, not some asshole guy who's going to exact his pound of flesh. SOME of those women would LOVE to be major ass-kickers. I'm all for division of labor, and besides, I'm too old to be an ass-kicker. If they will do the ass-kicking for me, I will be the herbalist and gardener and computer-builder. (I'm learning!)

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:40 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
I have NEVER met a women who owns a firearm who has been the victim of Domestic Violence.

Interesting, but it is not the possession of a gun in and of itself I conjure, rather the mentality that unacceptable shit will not be tolerated, and the choices that stem from it (as well as a perceptible attitude that is recognizable to predators as 'risky').

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
besides, I'm too old to be an ass-kicker.

No you're not. Well, you may not want to get into regular weekend bar fights, but to old for Tai-Chi? Balderdash.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:44 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
All I'll say is that well-taught martial arts classes are a good thing.


Guns, not fists. I've had victims with self-defense backgrounds. They don't fight back or if they do fight back the Defense claims she started it and the poor fella was defending himself from the girl gone wild...also known as the 'bitch be crazy' defense.

Yep, the 'bitch' family of defenses. Lie, crazy, deserved it...and the 'bitch, what you talkin bout' defense where they argue that not only did it never happen, the fella has an alibi and has no fracking idea what the hell this is all about.

I regret the use of the term 'bitch' but its a legal term of art in this context.

As for guns...I've had the cases where the girl shoots the 'bastard'. Then we get into the 'son of a bitch deserved it' defense...also known as battered woman syndrome. I like battered woman syndrome because I can use it to explain to a Jury why the woman stayed with a repeat abuser or why she is changing her story on the stand. This past year has seen a lot of science become available for the using battered woman against an abuser rather then in defense of a female charged with murder. I'm urging our local abuse agencies to look into this from the female on male perspective to explain why men don't report abuse.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Friday, December 28, 2012 8:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Guns, not fists. I've had victims with self-defense backgrounds. They don't fight back or if they do fight back the Defense claims she started it and the poor fella was defending himself from the girl gone wild...also known as the 'bitch be crazy' defense.


The POINT of a martial arts is that you will probably not need to use it, or if you do, not to the extent of 'beating up' someone.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 9:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Women stay with abusers because they don't have other options (or they don't see that they have options), not because they "can't" beat up (or shoot) their partners. Sometimes the barriers are financial, sometimes the barriers are cultural, and sometimes psychological, sometimes legal, but rarely is abuse about not knowing martial arts or how to use a gun.

In fact, for a better example of male violence, you might want to look at child abuse. Is blaming the child a realistic approach? Would teaching the child how to use a gun be the correct remedy?

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Friday, December 28, 2012 9:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Would teaching the child how to use a gun be the correct remedy?

No, but me learning martial arts put an end to family violence in MY house. And no fight was even necessary.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 1:18 PM

BYTEMITE


I agree with Chris, you are never too old to deliver a much needed ass kicking.

There's a reason why a common expectation of martial arts masters is of a little old man, half bowed over with arthritis. No reason it can't be a little old woman either.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverMessWithGranny

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Friday, December 28, 2012 1:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

When I was in Elementary school, I experienced violence almost exclusively at the hands of a female, with a single noted exception.

When I was in Middle School, I experienced violence almost exclusively at the hands of males.

In both cases, I feel I was being victimized by people who felt powerless or had been bullied, and were using the violence as a means to reclaim their power using the conduit of a safe adversary who could not substantively oppose them.

I have also had to deal with sexual abusers, exclusively male.

The violence and abuses I endured in my life were sometimes at the hands of trusted figures responsible for my protection. Sometimes they were simply overlooked by trusted figures responsible for my protection.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 28, 2012 2:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

The violence and abuses I endured in my life were sometimes at the hands of trusted figures responsible for my protection. Sometimes they were simply overlooked by trusted figures responsible for my protection.


Those responsible for MY abuse were mostly put on notice that it was discontinuing, a couple of times they were handed an elbow sandwich.
Did you get any such closure with yours, Tony?

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Friday, December 28, 2012 2:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can credit martial arts for stopping my female assailant.

I should say that I have no talent for martial arts. I enjoy martial arts, but I enjoy a lot of things that I have no talent for.

One thing I'll always remember, that my instructor said ad nauseum: "Every block should be a strike." Which, you know, I'm not sure that's always appropriate. But it changed a young child's static blocks into a more active blocking maneuver that caused pain to the attacker. So she stopped hitting me, and went on to employ emotional abuses and manipulation instead. "Closure" on that score did not come until I was an adult, and I could perceive how totally wrecked this person was psychologically. Closure for me equalled understanding and forgiveness. I have not been able to forgive or understand all of my abusers. Only most of them.

The pedophiles are people I haven't been able to forgive or understand. The only emotions I associate with those experiences are shame. There was never any justice or bold standing up for myself on that score. Merely evasion and silence.

--Anthony










Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 28, 2012 3:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


It is indeed possible to be too young, too small, too old, or too sick to deliver a proper ass-kicking, and anyone who thinks so is none of the above at the moment.

Nobody knows this more than my hubby, who was a physically intimidating young man- a 6'3" construction worker with lightening-fast reflexes, quick eyes, and ability to read people honed by years of physical and emotional abuse, and war experience at a young age. One of the things he constantly gripes about are the stereotypes of the crippled-but-effective sensei or the slip of a young woman who takes on a half-dozen men twice her size. Mass counts. So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.

Like I said- division of labor. Not everyone is able to be an ass-kicker, and not everyone should have to be.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 3:36 PM

BYTEMITE


But surely neither mass and strength are everything.

Look, I was being more facetious than anything. I didn't mean to imply or suggest anything.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 3:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).

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Friday, December 28, 2012 3:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But surely neither mass and strength are everything.

Look, I was being more facetious than anything. I didn't mean to imply or suggest anything.



Hello,

Nothing is everything, and I think everyone who wanted to know it, knew that you were being faceitious.

Signy is right that cooperation is vital. Not everyone is going to be a good warrior, or will even be remotely interested.

The 'fighters' need not be the biggest and most massive, however. Nor strongest, nor youngest, nor most healthy.

As in all occupations, the best fighters are the ones who have an interest and aptitude for the craft. They may not be what anyone imagines when they think of a fighter. They may meet every stereotype or defy all expectations. They may be 90 pound slight women or 300 pound muscular male giants. They may be old people or young adults. Arthritis sufferers or perfectly healthy individuals.

And there may be heavyweight musclemen who have no desire to fight and there may be grandmothers who feel well enough and capable.

Stereotypes are for suckers.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 28, 2012 4:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).


Hello,

In my classes, 80% was training and motivation. At least.

I can't tell you how many times I saw arthritis-ridden pensioners and little women take apart powerful, towering opponents.

I myself am a large, powerful male in my thirties, and I'm half-useless in a tussle. People just assume all kinds of things about you, and so my adult life has been largely free from violence.

This is good, because my childhood had too much violence and I don't miss it.

If I was out with friends and violence happened, I'd probably be the one the baddies were kicking the crap out of while my smaller, less strong, sometimes older, and often less healthy friends were the real threats.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 28, 2012 5:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
But surely neither mass and strength are everything.


Who wins in a truck vs. motorcycle confrontation?

In my case (motorcycle) ME, because I dropped down a gear & pressed it to get out of there, leaving the truck (& nearby cars) to pile up as they wished. THAT was from my martial arts training. If not I would have surely died that day.
It's NOT always about 'bigger'.

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Friday, December 28, 2012 5:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Mass counts.

For a LOT.
All things being equal, the physically stronger opponent wins every time.
It's your job to make things unequal.


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Friday, December 28, 2012 7:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is indeed possible to be too young, too small, too old, or too sick to deliver a proper ass-kicking, and anyone who thinks so is none of the above at the moment.

Nobody knows this more than my hubby, who was a physically intimidating young man- a 6'3" construction worker with lightening-fast reflexes, quick eyes, and ability to read people honed by years of physical and emotional abuse, and war experience at a young age. One of the things he constantly gripes about are the stereotypes of the crippled-but-effective sensei or the slip of a young woman who takes on a half-dozen men twice her size. Mass counts. So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.

Like I said- division of labor. Not everyone is able to be an ass-kicker, and not everyone should have to be.


I totally feel ya on this - sure I was a terror in my Glory Days, but those were twenty and more YEARS ago...
IMHO Situational Awareness trumps everything, cause that is what allows you to load the odds in your favor, but many folk have psychological issues and blind spots which make that at best, problematic.

Speakin of division of labor, though - back in the day I mostly played the role of Tanker, drawing attention onto myself and trusting in my defenses while my "Bullygirls" actually did the thrashing (kinda like Mal and Zoe in that bar in The Train Job), and so it eventually got around that no matter what she looks like, any girl in my company is there as muscle, and potentially dangerous - as of late I've played on this to protect some who are very much NOT dangerous (except maybe to themselves) by exploiting that assumption - as my sensei pounded into my head the hard way, preventing a fight from ever starting counts as a victory, right ?

Funny cultural bit - worth remembering I lived in a very rough neighborhood and happened to for a lot of it the only "cracker" in the neighborhood, so yeah I know a bit about thug/ghetto culture sure, and while not particularly fond of the musical form, I introduced some locals to a bit of good advice from UTFO, cause they totally had a point...



-Frem

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 6:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not everything, but about 80%. The bigger the discrepancy, the higher the percent. Have you ever tried judo, or karate, or wrestling? I have (judo).



I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.
There is more than one kind of violence. Some people only pick on the completely defenseless.... young children, the comatose, (yes, seriously) the elderly etc These people don't expect resistance of any sort, and any resistance - no matter how incompetent- will stop them. A little bit of karate, boxing, MMA, even wrestling... anything that teaches you to use your weight and improves your timing... should help.

OTOH, there are an awful lot of people who are used to fighting. They've thrown punches, and taken as many. Some have taken knife wounds or bullets. Momentary pain won't shock them, and landing a few blows won't surprise them into stopping. They know how to use their weight, because they've fought before. Don't count on a few years of training to neutralize their advantage in weight, because they're more experienced than you.

You need to be highly trained and in top form, and used to street fighting, before you could win in a straight-up fight. Not for someone weak, small, sick, out of shape, etc. And if your opponent is a gang member, you better stay out of their turf afterwards because you will never, ever be safe. Your best defense is to be part of a militarized group.

ETA: I just saw the thread on MMA. There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows. But as has been noted, certain things are never done in competition because they're permanently damaging. That is why I said you have to be used to STREET FIGHTING.

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So, I'm sure some of you have seen this...

Quote:

NEW DELHI/SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A woman whose gang rape provoked protests and rare national debate about violence against women in India died from her injuries on Saturday, prompting promises of action from a government that has struggled to respond to public outrage.

The unidentified 23-year-old medical student suffered a brain injury and massive internal damage in the December 16 attack and died in hospital in Singapore where she had been taken for treatment....

The woman, beaten, raped and thrown out of a moving bus, had been flown to Singapore in a critical condition by the Indian government on Thursday.
....

"Our words shriveled in the face of what she'd been subjected to by the six men travelling on that bus, who spent an hour torturing and raping her, savagely beating up her male friend."
...

The victim and her male friend were returning home from the cinema, media reports say, six men on their bus beat them with metal rods and repeatedly raped the woman. Media said a rod was used in the rape, causing internal injuries. Both were thrown from the bus. The male friend survived. The six suspects have all been arrested and are in custody. The attack has put gender issues centre stage in Indian politics. Issues such as rape, dowry-related deaths and female infanticide have rarely entered mainstream political discourse
....
The outcry over the attack caught the government off-guard and it was slow to react. It took a week for Singh to make a statement [Kind of like the NRA on the Newtown shooting] on the attack, infuriating many protesters who saw it as a sign of a government insensitive to the plight of women.

The prime minister, a stiff 80-year-old technocrat who speaks in a low monotone, has struggled to channel the popular outrage in his public statements and convince critics that his eight-year-old government will now take concrete steps to improve the safety of women.

"The Congress managers were ham-handed in their handling of the situation that arose after the brutal assault on the girl. The crowd management was poor," a lawmaker from Singh's ruling Congress party said on condition of anonymity.

Commentators and sociologists say the rape has tapped into a deep well of frustration many Indians feel over what they see as weak governance and poor leadership on social issues.

A global poll by the Thomson Reuters Foundation in June found that India was the worst place to be a woman because of high rates of infanticide, child marriage and slavery.



from Yahoos news

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:14 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows.

Good schools will throw any & everything at you, and a serious student will study crazy unorthodox stuff on his or her own.
I once had an idiot wanting to fight me on the street, so I picked up a garbage can & pushed it at him and just as he was tossing it aside I kicked him in his knee (not to break it- just to hurt him a bit). Thus endeth the confrontation.

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, I'm sure some of you have seen this...


Breaks my damn heart. If I say any more about this I'm afraid I'll stray into dark territory.

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:50 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows.

Hey Signy,

I think this may be a natural, but casual observation. In my school there was a general disdain among the instructors for karate for this very reason. Kung fu is generally understood as a "round" form and karate a "straight" form. Of course my kung fu training partook of both styles, but there was a definite bias toward the round forms. But I've learned that every school is gonna have some other school that it looks down on and uses as a negative example (they really do say stuff like "our kung fu is stronger").

Kung fu training would be kinda dumbass if what you're saying were actually true. When you begin your training, and for the first several years, it is all a bunch of formalism and choreography. But as you advance in your training it becomes far more focused on principles of physics and energy. Near the end of my training I was learning how to make of my whole body, or just my lower arm, say, a coiled spring of sorts, I was learning how the muscles and bones interlock and sorta pile on each other and then unpack/uncoil for explosive effect. This was stuff I really couldn't imagine before my training, nor even notice for the first few years of training. But when I look at my cat jumping up on the kitchen counter, now, I see those principles at work. You learn that all real strength is core strength and you learn how to keep from falling down and then if you have to fall, fall perfectly.

Another thing that happens in training is that your whole body becomes astonishingly more resilient. There were punches I took near the end of my training that I'm quite certain would have broken bones years before. It's kinda bizarre, really, the amount of punishment the human body in peak condition can take. I also stopped bruising entirely. I get bruises now, but it's been over ten years since my training days.
Sorry for the threadjack.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I hope I would never let such a thing happen were I aware of it.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Saturday, December 29, 2012 5:55 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://now.msn.com/priest-says-that-women-bring-abuse-on-themselves

Hello,

My favorite comment was, "So, are little boys too provocative, also?"

Blame the victim is a favorite game amongst abusers wherever you go.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 6:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


CHRIS, HK... I have to say my experience with judo was fun, but short. But I experienced it as a kind of dance. When I was paired up with a very strong guy, there wasn't much I could do unless he relaxed a bit, and when I was paired up with a much smaller woman, I had to kind of give her a little assist in throwing me because I could have been a complete sack of potatoes and she wasn't EVER gonna budge me! And when I tried to throw hubby, just for fun, all he did was bend over to accommodate my tugging and laugh.

So what I'm thinking is that you can't just have a few years or a little training to engage in a street fight, you need a LOT of years.

Also, I have the impression... and please correct me if I'm wrong... that certain moves just AREN'T DONE... gouging an eye or breaking a knee for example... they're a little TOO effective. Given that, I wonder if the expert is a little prohibited from areas of defense by long years of deliberate avoidance.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So anyway, to get back to the thread topic.... You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.

However, our history is replete with examples of (mostly) men in gangs or battalions, beating up and killing each other, women, and children.

As an aside, 90% of people killed in war are civilians, and of those, 75% are women and children. (Doing the arithmetic... roughly 68% of total war casualties are women and children.)

Men and women tend to respond to threat differently. When faced with stress, many men go into "fight or flight". For decades, "fight or flight" was the ONLY recognized and studied reaction. There was a great deal of work done on how the sympathetic nervous system is activated, which hormones come into play, how adrenaline is reversed and so forth. Nobody thought to study women. When someone FINALLY looked at how women actually respond (instead of assuming that women are "just like" men) they found that when faced with stress, many women go into "tend and befriend" mode.

Quote:

The dominant model of the human responses to stress has been the fight or flight response. In response to threat, humans (and other animals) can become aggressive and confront a stressor (fight) or flee either literally or through avoidant coping, such as social withdrawal or substance abuse. From the standpoint of human beings, however, this analysis of stress responses is incomplete. Another tendency is to affiliate, that is, to come together in groups in threatening times.[1] This tend and befriend response refers to the fact that people often manage threats by caring for offspring and seeking social support in time of stress.[2][3]

Biological bases of tend and befriend
Many scientists now believe that there is an affiliative neurocircuitry that prompts affiliation especially in response to stress. Research suggests that this system regulates social approach behavior, much as hunger, thirst, or sexual drives are biologically regulated. A biological basis for this regulation appears to be oxytocin.[4]

Oxytocin has been tied to a broad array of social relationships and activities, including peer bonding, sexual activity, and affiliative preferences.[4] Oxytocin is released in humans in response to at least some stressors, especially those that may trigger affiliative needs. Oxytocin prompts affiliative behavior, including maternal tending and social contact with peers.[5] Thus affiliation under stress serves tending needs, including protective response towards offspring, and may also take the form of befriending, namely seeking social contact for one's own protection, the protection of offspring, and the protection of the social group. These social responses to threat reduce biological stress responses, including elevated heart rate, blood pressures, and hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis stress responses, such as cortisol.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tend_and_befriend

It's possible that the largest determining factor between men and women is average levels of oxytocin. I can imagine that people are simply born with different levels of oxytocin... there are studies that the asocial behavior of autistic children can be alleviated with oxytocin nasal spray.

I wonder if what Frem thinks of as "the dark spark" and what Byte assumes is sociopathy is simply low levels of oxytocin, which I imagine is experienced as complete lack of "warm and fuzzies" towards people and/or other living creatures, an internal coldness and absence of empathy.

---------------------

Which brings me to... upbringing.

Males brought up to be "male"... less mother-child contact, harsher consequences, etc.... will probably have less oxytocin, or their receptors will probably be less efficient for oxytocin. (Early experience wires the brain for different responses. Early pain makes later pain more acute, early stress makes later stress feel worse, etc.)

And one other question:

Has EVERY male on this board experienced abuse as a child???? It seems like nearly everyone (with the exception of rappy, hero and geezer) has experience early abuse. Is this the norm, then??? Or is this just a skewed population?

And what about the women here? I never personally experienced "abuse", although I did live in a house with a very dominant male. The most I can say was that I experienced emotional neglect (alcoholic mother, distant and angry father) I think I had very high levels of oxytocin when I was young, until my mom pushed that button too hard a broke it.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I did about a semestre of judo at school. They taught us to use leverage to try to overcome greater weight and size.
There is more than one kind of violence. Some people only pick on the completely defenseless.... young children, the comatose, (yes, seriously) the elderly etc These people don't expect resistance of any sort, and any resistance - no matter how incompetent- will stop them. A little bit of karate, boxing, MMA, even wrestling... anything that teaches you to use your weight and improves your timing... should help.

OTOH, there are an awful lot of people who are used to fighting. They've thrown punches, and taken as many. Some have taken knife wounds or bullets. Momentary pain won't shock them, and landing a few blows won't surprise them into stopping. They know how to use their weight, because they've fought before. Don't count on a few years of training to neutralize their advantage in weight, because they're more experienced than you.

You need to be highly trained and in top form, and used to street fighting, before you could win in a straight-up fight. Not for someone weak, small, sick, out of shape, etc. And if your opponent is a gang member, you better stay out of their turf afterwards because you will never, ever be safe. Your best defense is to be part of a militarized group.

ETA: I just saw the thread on MMA. There is one thing I noticed about any martial art, mixed or not: the fighting is very stylized. It prepares you to counter certain expected blows. But as has been noted, certain things are never done in competition because they're permanently damaging. That is why I said you have to be used to STREET FIGHTING.



I'm... not sure what you're implying. You think I can't take a hit? I can take a hard kick to the groin and not even blink, hard enough I was bruised for a friggin' week. Yeah, so fights in Mormon country are beyond pathetic, for sure, and I wouldn't even try compare it to a street fight or gang warfare. But you're talking at me like you think I've never been in a brush up.

You asked me if I'd taken judo, and I said yeah. But one semestre isn't the only experience I've had. Not by far. :/

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Then we get into the 'son of a bitch deserved it' defense...also known as battered woman syndrome.

Jezus...battered-woman syndrome = "son of a bitch deserved it"...simple as that, eh? Brrrrrr....a mentality I'd choose to avoid.
Quote:

Women stay with abusers because they don't have other options (or they don't see that they have options), not because they "can't" beat up (or shoot) their partners. Sometimes the barriers are financial, sometimes the barriers are cultural, and sometimes psychological, sometimes legal, but rarely is abuse about not knowing martial arts or how to use a gun.

Thank you, Sig, for making the pertinent point.
Quote:

Mass counts . So does strength. Just wait until you get to be MY age and then tell me about it. I'm sure Niki and Magons feel the same way.

Damned straight! Knowing some moves might mitigate the damage to myself, but kicking ass? That's laughable! There are some things I could do, depending on how much pain I wanted to suffer, but other things I simply physically couldn't do...and I've always been very flexible, even!
Quote:

You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.

But you'll find many, many instances of young women of teenage years who've banded together to brutalize, both emotionally AND physically, other women.

Interesting what you said about males abused here.
Quote:

with the exception of rappy, hero and geezer

I would add Wulf to that, if he's never been abused. What I noticed about that statement was that those are three of the lealst sensitive, least able to see others' viewpoints, of all of us. I wonder if childhood sexual abuse in some way makes some people more empathetic, more willing to see the greys?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You will hardly ever find in recorded in history instances of women banding together to brutalize another person.


That's... No Sig. Just no.

This women are the perfect pacifist cooperative gender and men are all violent thugs thing is starting to get to me. Can we go back to talking about the rape? That's actually less bothersome, at least then I have appropriate targets to direct my anger.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


NIKI- According to Wulf, he was raised by a pretty uninvolved mother (no dad) as the only white boy in a black-gang neighborhood, and that there was no way - either by beating them OR joining them- that he could escape the street abuse. Also, while neither rappy, geezer, nor hero have admitted to being abused, maybe they were. We don't know. This is the internet, after all, and all we know about each other is what we read.

BYTE.. for god's sake, woman! Untwist your panties, willya? Why do you think everything is related to you personally? MOST women don't get into serious fights. So you have a high tolerance for pain.... well, bully for you!

BYTE, NIKI- You're right. Women are not perfect pacifists. OTOH, they are very much less likely than males to engage in physical violence. Real-world fact.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

BYTE.. for god's sake, woman! Untwist your panties, willya? Why do you think everything is related to you personally? MOST women don't get into serious fights.


How is that even possible? I always saw girls fighting, usually over boys. There was often hair pulling. For my part, girls always got all uppity on my tomboy self, I'd bite them, they'd throw rocks at me.

Wulf's seen girls take knives to each other over boys. He told me a story once where one girl actually half cut off another girl's face, it was just hanging off her.

I can't even understand where you're coming from.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

OTOH, they are very much less likely than males to engage in physical violence. Real-world fact.


They're less likely to be convicted. :(

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 7:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

They're less likely to be convicted. :(
Byte, you're not the only one who lives in the real world who knows things.

When our sitter's family was being followed and extorted for money, it was by men, All of the fights at work, threats of physical violence, guns carried? Men. Fights at school? Mostly the guys. Virtually all of the physical and sexual abuse claimed by people here in the board? Done by men.

C'mon. Anyone who does an objective tally about their own real-world experience will also see the same thing. Sure, girls and women can get pretty catty, forming their own in-groups and out-groups and saying nasty shit about each other. And yes, girls and women DO get into actual fights, they DO abuse their children or their spouses... but not the the extent that men do. All I have to do is count the number of times I've seen one thing versus another, it gets pretty clear.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:01 AM

BYTEMITE


I don't think I believe it Sig. Does not compute.

Everyone is screwed up, everyone is potentially violent. I don't make any distinctions for race or gender or creed. We're all equally bad, and saying our own group isn't just seems wrong. Favouring our own group is preferential.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Does not compute because you don't want it to compute.

I challenge everyone on the board to think back over their lifetime experience over who got physically violent, and count up the instances and sort it by gender.


Quote:

Everyone is screwed up, everyone is potentially violent.
I imagine that everyone does have a breaking point. You pile enough pressure on someone, and he or she will lash out. But IRL, women tend to be under MORE stress than men, if you simply want to weigh the responsibilities and commitments versus the resources.

BYTE, on the one hand you want to think that everyone is like you or that you're like everyone. OTOH you want us all to think you're a sociopath. So, what you're saying is that everyone is a sociopath. If that were the case, the word would have no meaning. So, what ARE you saying?

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