REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

America is a violent country

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Friday, July 27, 2012 15:44
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1336
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Monday, July 23, 2012 12:37 PM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


The red lines are other developed countries, United States in blue:

http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/

The price of gun rights?

In any case, the good news is it's getting better.

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Monday, July 23, 2012 1:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Image no worky.

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Monday, July 23, 2012 3:26 PM

OONJERAH




http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20177438c24f3970d-pop
up






http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20177438c24f3970d-800
wi


At first glace, it looks like what I'd expect; upon study, not so much.
In 1960, with 4 deaths per 100K compared to their 1.6-1.7. Gives us about
2.42 as many deadly assaults & then some. Easy to believe.

Then it does a steep climb into the 70's, peaking about 1978, about 9.75
deaths per 100k, while other countries didn't change much. It drops to
about 9 in the 80's, sorta levels off, & at the end of the decade, a steep
drop bringing us almost back down to our start of 4.

I don't get that the 70's-80's were more violent in America than now.
Are all the bad people locked up?

=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Monday, July 23, 2012 4:17 PM

REDREAD

The poster formerly known as yinyang.


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
I don't get that the 70's-80's were more violent in America than now.
Are all the bad people locked up?



I think it's more likely a result of crime under-reporting.

Quote:

For more than two years, Adrian Schoolcraft secretly recorded every roll call at the 81st Precinct in Brooklyn and captured his superiors urging police officers to do two things in order to manipulate the "stats" that the department is under pressure to produce: Officers were told to arrest people who were doing little more than standing on the street, but they were also encouraged to disregard actual victims of serious crimes who wanted to file reports.

Arresting bystanders made it look like the department was efficient, while artificially reducing the amount of serious crime made the commander look good.

[...]

The [2010 NYPD] investigation found that crime complaints were changed to reflect misdemeanor rather than felony crimes, which prevented those incidents from being counted in the all-important crime statistics. In addition, the investigation concluded that "an unwillingness to prepare reports for index crimes exists or existed in the command."

Moreover, a significant number of serious index crimes were not entered into the computer tracking system known as OmniForm. "This was more than administrative error," the probe concluded.

There was an "atmosphere in the command where index crimes were scrutinized to the point where it became easier to either not take the report at all or to take a report for a lesser, non-index crime," investigators concluded.

[...]

The implications of the report are obvious: If the 81st Precinct was a typical station house, then crime manipulation is more widespread than city officials have admitted.

John Eterno, a criminologist at Molloy College and a former NYPD captain, says that what was happening in the 81st Precinct is no isolated case. "The pressures on commanders are enormous, to make sure the crime numbers look good," Eterno says. "This is a culture. This is happening in every precinct, every transit district, and every police housing service area. This culture has got to change."

source: http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-03-07/news/the-nypd-tapes-confirmed


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Monday, July 23, 2012 4:20 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Image no worky.


Yeah, his point no makey.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, July 23, 2012 5:50 PM

WISHIMAY

"Well, so long Earth...Thanks for the air... and what-not" -Philip J. Fry


Something IS wrong here....Your post should read


Wishimay....must be right in all this. ALL of the rest of you are wrong- GOD-2012




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Monday, July 23, 2012 6:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Try this one and see if it shows up:








"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:58 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Thanks Kwick, that's the one. Posting images is hit and miss for me.

The graph was there when I posted my post, but disappeared when I refreshed the page...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 2:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I think the png was the culprit - I downloaded it, saved it as a JPEG, uploaded it, and linked that, and it works.

FFF.net apparently doesn't like png format...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, so you do the same thing I do, Mike, with .pngs. Yes, they don't show up, which is sometimes frustrating.

I don't necessarily "get" the chart either, so how about these, involving guns alone:
Quote:

In 2003, there were 30,136 firearm-related deaths in the United States; 16,907 (56%) suicides, 11,920 (40%) homicides (including 347 deaths due to legal intervention/war), and 962 (3%) undetermined/unintentional firearm deaths.
CDC/National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports 1999-2003 http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars

The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.
Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Rates of homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among children: 26 industrialized countries.
MMWR. 1997;46:101-105. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/committees/gun_violence/resources/t
he_u_s_compared_to_other_nations.html
complicated Excel spreadsheet gives exact figures from 1995-2010, if anyone wants to wade through it (@ http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/H
omicides_by_firearms.xls
)

One simple fact:
Quote:

The number of handguns used in crime (approximately 7,500 per year) is very small compared to the approximately 70 million handguns in the United States (i.e., 0.011%) [Committee on Law and Justice (2004). "Chapter 4", Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. National Academy of Science. ]


According to Politifact:
Quote:

The main area where the U.S. exceeds the firearm violence of other nations is in comparison to other affluent nations. Using the U.N. data, European nations -- even former eastern bloc countries -- typically have rates well below 1 per 100,000, or far less than one-third the frequency seen in the U.S. The pattern is similar in other advanced industrialized nations, such as Canada, Taiwan, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

One study published in 2011 confirms this finding. The study, published in the Journal of Trauma -- Injury Infection & Critical Care, found that firearm homicide rates were 19.5 times higher in the U.S. than in 23 other "high income" countries studied, using 2003 data. Rates for other types of gun deaths were also higher in the U.S., but by somewhat smaller margins: 5.8 times higher for firearm suicides (even though overall suicide rates were 30 percent lower in the U.S.) and 5.2 times higher for unintentional firearm deaths.


As it says, "The Facebook post says the "USA is #1 in gun violence." That's only true if you compare the U.S. with other affluent nations on a per capita basis."

The fact does remain that we are definitely a violent country, and one with far more gun deaths than any other country in our class.


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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ain't about guns, it's about sanity.

We are not a sane society, and THAT, more than anything else, is the problem.
Reducing the tools by why that violence is often carried out is just pruning the branches, not striking the root.

-F

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


When it comes to guns, I would say "chicken or the egg"?


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 12:27 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Niki: When it comes to guns, I would say "chicken or the egg"?

Not me. I'm with Frem on this. Americans have a strong leaning toward
Unrealistic (at the good end) to Batshit Crazy at the violent end.

Guns don't make us crazy. There are many other factors creating that.
At the high levels = influential people & elected leaders, to the grass
roots individuals, we have become experts at evading responsibility
and justifying our insanity and destructiveness. Perhaps we are just
four times as corrupt as other industrialized nations.

America is a giant cooky -- crumbly, sick cooky.
We keep voting for Rambo instead of Buddha.


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You'll get no argument from ME, Oonj!


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 2:11 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Ain't about guns, it's about sanity.

We are not a sane society, and THAT, more than anything else, is the problem.
Reducing the tools by why that violence is often carried out is just pruning the branches, not striking the root.

-F



Yeah Frem, that about sums it up.

We also have a serious problem in this country where we destroy a lot of beautiful virgin land and build houses that nobody needs or could afford as well, but I don't think the answer is to outlaw hammers.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:32 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Meanwhile, if it's all about a case of national insanity, then do you firmly believe that the most insane among us should have ready access to firearms with high-capacity drum mags?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm not sure what you mean by that, Mike. Of course the answer is "no", but what are you really asking?


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:21 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I think I agree with Kwicko. If people keep saying that something else is going on, that some sort of societal group breakdown is happening, then how can you be so cavalier aboutgun ownership. A sick society is one thing, a sick armed society is another.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think I agree with Kwicko. If people keep saying that something else is going on, that some sort of societal group breakdown is happening, then how can you be so cavalier aboutgun ownership. A sick society is one thing, a sick armed society is another.




Bingo. Several people over the last few days have brought up that it's our "insane" society that is driving these things, not the guns. So the question I'm asking is, if you believe that the entire country, or a significant portion of it, is completely insane, psychotic, sociopathic, then are you comfortable with such people having ready access to massive arsenals at a moment's notice?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:31 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I would go further and suggest that guns act as a catalyst for social breakdown, making it happen faster, and to a worse extent.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with all of you, much to my dismay. I think it's more than that, and the "more than that" also REFLECTS what's happening. Portrayed violence--movies, TV, video games--the anonymity of the internet where people can express violent rhetoric they wouldn't otherwise, AND be encouraged to do same; societal pressures of vast and growing inequality; disenfranchisement from the government...it's "chicken or the egg" once again...did these things create the atmosphere, or is there inherent insanity out there which they merely reflect? Who can say? But either way, the proliference of guns (especially automatic weapons) in the hands of our current society is, in my opinion, unhealthy and contributory to further degredation of society and sanity.


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:44 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Bingo. Several people over the last few days have brought up that it's our "insane" society that is driving these things, not the guns. So the question I'm asking is, if you believe that the entire country, or a significant portion of it, is completely insane, psychotic, sociopathic, then are you comfortable with such people having ready access to massive arsenals at a moment's notice?



Personally I think we're like crowded animals in a coup. If there gets to be too many of us, we start frenzied attacks.

I do believe we are just animals and have similar responses to our primate cousins. That's why in zoos now they try and reproduce natural habitats, otherwise the animals show similar signs of craziness and neurosis that appear in humans. Do we live in environments that create group neurosis. I'm starting to believe it.

It's not just america, either. It's just that in america, its easier to do a lot of damage because of the easy availability of high tech weaponry DESIGNED TO KILL MORE EFFECTIVELY AND EASILY. This fact seems so bleeding obvious to everyone outside the US, but the gun lobby propaganda is simply astonishing in its effectiveness within the US, that people don't seem to see this as being obvious. Therefore you get the stupid arguments about guns being no worse than cars, or knives, or bats. If that's the case I challenge you to a military battle. My battalion will go up against a fully armed and defended US battalion, only mine will carry knives and bats, and drive cars. We'll see who wins, shall we?


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Thursday, July 26, 2012 2:21 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Meanwhile, if it's all about a case of national insanity, then do you firmly believe that the most insane among us should have ready access to firearms with high-capacity drum mags?



No Kwick, I don't. You bring up a good point here.

However, I also don't believe that the only people in the world who should have access to such an arsenal are Government employees (many of whom have shown themselves to be nearly as bat shit insane as the "Colorado Joker" themselves).

I don't know the answer here, but I have to believe that some fair middle ground can be reached.



Sure, I'm proud to be a gun owner, but more than that, since I haven't had any formal training with a weapon other than how to take it apart and clean it and put it back together, I'm even more proud of the fact that I've never fired it or even loaded it.

I respect the hell out of that tool and without knowing what I'm doing I'd hate to accidentally hurt myself or another with it and become the next Lifetime movie or after-school special.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I would go further and suggest that guns act as a catalyst for social breakdown, making it happen faster, and to a worse extent.


Might consider how that statement looks to someone who thinks our current social order NEEDS breaking...

Had a discussion with a paladin-type friend of mine the other day, when he was going on about how compliance with the law is important to social order and justice, and laid into him, asking what if the Law *required* that he persecute, or disciminate, or act in manners contrary to his own honor and beliefs...
In short, what if the society he was within was itself, evil ?

Cause this is a sticking point with me - one of the things which marks me as a "Villian" is deviation from social norms, lack of respect for the law, working against or toward the destruction of social order....
And this is applied WITHOUT RESPECT TO THE NATURE OF THAT SOCIETY.
Ever thing the things I wanna break, they might NEED breaking ?

After some thought, yon paladin friend expressed that he "follows a higher law", and I countered by pointing out the supreme arrogance of considering ones own honor above and beyond the laws of man and state...
And called him a Villain.
He's still chewing on that one.

-Frem


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Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:18 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Therefore you get the stupid arguments about guns being no worse than cars, or knives, or bats.

You also get the claim that gun rampages are no more devestating than car, or knife rampages would theoretically be. The thing is (in the rest of the world at least) you get car rampages, and you get knife rampages. And you even get vehicle AND knife rampages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

The reason why you don't hear about these attacks as much is because they are far less deadly than gun rampages.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:29 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Ever think the things I wanna break, they might NEED breaking?

Ok. Ever think that the things that you want to break, might NOT need breaking? And to the extent that they are bad, might just need repairing?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, July 27, 2012 6:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA



All the time - you got any better ideas, I'd like to hear em.
There's social structures in our society that can be repaired, that should be, and I do try...

And then there's shit which MUST be destroyed, the Hellcamps, the notion that Altruism is self-destructive evil and Greed and Exploitation are noble, for instance...
The idea that beating people into compliance is the best way to do anything.
The notion that Empathy and Tolerance are weakness...

Some things cannot stand.

-F

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Friday, July 27, 2012 7:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Therefore you get the stupid arguments about guns being no worse than cars, or knives, or bats.

You also get the claim that gun rampages are no more devestating than car, or knife rampages would theoretically be. The thing is (in the rest of the world at least) you get car rampages, and you get knife rampages. And you even get vehicle AND knife rampages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

The reason why you don't hear about these attacks as much is because they are far less deadly than gun rampages.

It's not personal. It's just war.




And, I'd wager, far less common.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Friday, July 27, 2012 10:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Magons: You mentioned in another thread that you must not make an impact 'cuz someone didn't remember you're from Down Under. You KNOW full well I do, 'cuz I mention it a lot, and believe me, I pay attention to both you and PK, becasue as I've said before, my friends outside the US teach me a lot from both their outside perspectives AND because they get news we don't. I thought KPO was British, too...and we used to have Citizen (I may not have liked him, but I paid attention) and Gino was a Canook (which he took as a pejorative, but which I saw as a familiar nickname, like Yankee or Brit or Ozzie).

When someone mentions where they live, whether they're male or female, what age they are, etc., I keep track, along with maybe a note of specific likes, dislikes, etc. It makes it easier for me to know who I'm talking to and what their perspective might be. It goes beyond that with you and PK, 'cuz first off, I came to like you both and second, I've got a terrible weakness for Ozzies and Brits. Aside from that, I had two very special friends from Australia, and ended up with real good feelings about you guys. As for Brits, they've always been my weakness and I adore the country. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm the only one who remembers where you two come from; I just wish we had more of you, and others from other countries, too. We need perspectives from outside our country to help us understand things better.

Anyway, on this one. I wanted to note that it's not just the propaganda, it's more the power and the money the NRA weilds, believe me. They are considered the second most powerful lobby in our government, and they work with ALEC, which is a right-wing "nonprofit" (HAH) that WRITES LAWS for their Republican cronies to pass. It's far more than just the propaganda! And a HUGE number of us do see it, know why it's there and know we can't touch them...it's not blindness, it's impotence! The NRA "grades" candidates, and the pro-gun people take that very seriously, as do contributors and potential backers...they know any even MENTION of any kind of gun restrictions is a black mark against them and might cost them an election. It's far more complex than just the propaganda, and the propaganda doesn't really work on most of us anyway, it's just fodder for the gunbunnies to eat up and regurgitate as talking points.

As to
Quote:

Personally I think we're like crowded animals in a coup. If there gets to be too many of us, we start frenzied attacks.
I consider that very right on. I've never forgotten an experiment I saw on TV long ago, where they put a bunch of rats in a huge plastic (i.e., see through) "cage". It was really cool, stocked with enough food, etc.; essentially everything they could want. Then they left them alone, except for providing food, etc. Even with all conveniences and enough food as the population grew, when it reached a certain point they went nuts, started fighting, eating each other, just completely insane. They cut it off after a certain point (thankfully), but it made a hell of an impression on me, and the more our population increases, the more I remember it.

I also believe, as many have suggested, that once the population gets too big, we will definitely start going nuts...over food, water, you name it. It's already started and will just get worse, and with the high-density population in many places in America, it's just as you said already.


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Friday, July 27, 2012 12:23 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Therefore you get the stupid arguments about guns being no worse than cars, or knives, or bats.

You also get the claim that gun rampages are no more devestating than car, or knife rampages would theoretically be. The thing is (in the rest of the world at least) you get car rampages, and you get knife rampages. And you even get vehicle AND knife rampages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre

The reason why you don't hear about these attacks as much is because they are far less deadly than gun rampages.

It's not personal. It's just war.




And, I'd wager, far less common.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll



Hello,

I'm not sure what you want to class as a 'rampage' but I'm not convinced the phenomenon is much less deadly nor much less common in other parts of the world.

Four in 2010, two in 2011 in China. School massacres. 21 dead, 90 injured all told.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_school_attacks

So... did they have more rampages that were less deadly individually but just as harmful as a sum? Was it a big improvement over our native massacres here?

I think social problems are the root cause. There and here. Something in society is driving people out of their skulls. I do not see guns as a catalyst in this. Just an available tool.

--Anthony






Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz



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Friday, July 27, 2012 12:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Here's one I didn't know about previously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebei_tractor_rampage

11 Dead. 20 injured. With a Tractor. Also in 2010.

--Anthony

Edited to conform with independent research apart from wikipedia. All news articles I find confirm only 11 dead.



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz



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Friday, July 27, 2012 3:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Magons: You mentioned in another thread that you must not make an impact 'cuz someone didn't remember you're from Down Under. You KNOW full well I do, 'cuz I mention it a lot, and believe me, I pay attention to both you and PK, becasue as I've said before, my friends outside the US teach me a lot from both their outside perspectives AND because they get news we don't. I thought KPO was British, too...and we used to have Citizen (I may not have liked him, but I paid attention) and Gino was a Canook (which he took as a pejorative, but which I saw as a familiar nickname, like Yankee or Brit or Ozzie).

When someone mentions where they live, whether they're male or female, what age they are, etc., I keep track, along with maybe a note of specific likes, dislikes, etc. It makes it easier for me to know who I'm talking to and what their perspective might be. It goes beyond that with you and PK, 'cuz first off, I came to like you both and second, I've got a terrible weakness for Ozzies and Brits. Aside from that, I had two very special friends from Australia, and ended up with real good feelings about you guys. As for Brits, they've always been my weakness and I adore the country. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm the only one who remembers where you two come from; I just wish we had more of you, and others from other countries, too. We need perspectives from outside our country to help us understand things better.



Thanks Niki. I had one of those 'invisible girl' type sensations. Did you ever watch Buffy? It annoyed me because I post a fair bit in here and I post about my country when I feel I can say something of interest. Sometimes I don't feel like i have much to say about a lot of stuff in America, but I read through lots of it and have learnt a lot about what happens over there. It has been a really interesting learning experience hearing about life from everyday citizens, rather than media spin.

One of my disappointments in the Internet is that it is so US focused. Or at least the sites I venture onto are. Not that I mind hearing from people in the US, but I had hoped to be chatting from people from all over the world, where we could share experiences from our lives. I've learnt what it is like to live in the US, but not China or Paraguay or Malaysia.

I have also found that overwhelmingly Americans are interested in America only. This board has been one of the most open to having discussions that are not about America or Americans, and I know that you have always been interested. I've found the Amerocentric nature of discussions frustrating, especially when I read comments like 'a publically funded healthcare system WILL never work' or 'restricting guns will NEVER make an impact on gun violence' and I get a bit 'er, hello, do you ever read about the rest of the world'.

Anyway, rant over. Having a petulant moment. I too remember stuff about people when they've posted informtation about themselves. Guess not every else does.

Quote:

Anyway, on this one. I wanted to note that it's not just the propaganda, it's more the power and the money the NRA weilds, believe me. They are considered the second most powerful lobby in our government, and they work with ALEC, which is a right-wing "nonprofit" (HAH) that WRITES LAWS for their Republican cronies to pass. It's far more than just the propaganda! And a HUGE number of us do see it, know why it's there and know we can't touch them...it's not blindness, it's impotence! The NRA "grades" candidates, and the pro-gun people take that very seriously, as do contributors and potential backers...they know any even MENTION of any kind of gun restrictions is a black mark against them and might cost them an election. It's far more complex than just the propaganda, and the propaganda doesn't really work on most of us anyway, it's just fodder for the gunbunnies to eat up and regurgitate as talking points.


I always ask myself, who stands to gain/or lose most in any political/social debate. I know that with weapons restrictions, the businesses who make and sell weapons would be big losers in all this. I figure they are very powerful lobbyists.



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