REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

People who live in glass houses

POSTED BY: CAVETROLL
UPDATED: Friday, May 25, 2012 07:51
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Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:18 AM

CAVETROLL


Democratic senators decry "war on women" while they pay their female staffers less than their male staffers. Go ahead, let's hear why this is a good thing, not a fair accusation, taken out of context, necessary under the circumstances, etc.

{sits back, grabs popcorn}

http://freebeacon.com/senate-dems-betray-lilly/

Quote:


A group of Democratic female senators on Wednesday declared war on the so-called “gender pay gap,” urging their colleagues to pass the aptly named Paycheck Fairness Act when Congress returns from recess next month. However, a substantial gender pay gap exists in their own offices, a Washington Free Beacon analysis of Senate salary data reveals.

Of the five senators who participated in Wednesday’s press conference—Barbara Mikulski (D., Md.), Patty Murray (D., Wash.), Debbie Stabenow (D., Mich.), Dianne Feinstein (D., Calif.) and Barbara Boxer (D., Calif.)—three pay their female staff members significantly less than male staffers.

Murray, who has repeatedly accused Republicans of waging a “war a women,” is one of the worst offenders. Female members of Murray’s staff made about $21,000 less per year than male staffers in 2011, a difference of 35.2 percent.

That is well above the 23 percent gap that Democrats claim exists between male and female workers nationwide. The figure is based on a 2010 U.S. Census Bureau report, and is technically accurate. However, as CNN’s Lisa Sylvester has reported, when factors such as area of employment, hours of work, and time in the workplace are taken into account, the gap shrinks to about 5 percent.

A significant “gender gap” exists in Feinstein’s office, where women also made about $21,000 less than men in 2011, but the percentage difference—41 percent—was even higher than Murray’s.

Boxer’s female staffers made about $5,000 less, a difference of 7.3 percent.

The Free Beacon used publicly available salary data from the transparency website Legistorm to calculate the figures, and considered only current full-time staff members who were employed for the entirety of fiscal year 2011.

The employee gender pay gap among Senate Democrats was not limited to Murray, Boxer, and Feinstein. Of the 50 members of the Senate Democratic caucus examined in the analysis, 37 senators paid their female staffers less than male staffers.

Senators elected in 2010—Joe Manchin, Chris Coons, and Richard Blumenthal—were not considered due to incomplete salary data.

Women working for Senate Democrats in 2011 pulled in an average salary of $60,877. Men made about $6,500 more.

While the gap is significant, it is slightly smaller than that of the White House, which pays men about $10,000, or 13 percent, more on average, according to a previous Free Beacon analysis.


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Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And this is precisely WHY we need fair pay laws, and ones that apply to Congress just as much as to every other employer.

I wonder how the women in Congress who voted AGAINST fair pay would feel if someone introduced a bill to pay any female congressperson 77% as much as the male members of Congress were paid. If they feel there's no need for fair pay, surely they won't mind being paid substantially less for doing the exact same job, right?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


The piece doesn't say anywhere that the men and women staffers compared were in equivalent positions. Could it just be that there were more senior male staffers than women?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nice try. Boy, they sure are reaching for distractions! Let's start with the fact that the Republicans are pointing out that Obama's White House pays women 18% less than men. Guess what? BUSH's White House paid women 23% less than men! Serems to me Obama's actually IMPROVING the gender gap in the White House, eh?

Then there's all a whole bunch of other stuff:
Quote:

In an attempt to distract from the latest “War on Women” media coverage and Mitt Romney’s plunging support with female voters, Republicans started pushing a story around last week about the pay differential between women and men working at the White House. According to the Washington Free Beacon: “female employees earned a median annual salary of $60,000, which was about 18 percent less than the median salary for male employees ($71,000).”

It’s important to note here that the Free Beacon does not provide data for review, which should already raise questions about the validity of their findings. It’s also important to note that they used the median salary, the salary that falls right in the middle of the list, as opposed to simply averaging the values. We assume this choice was made because the difference appears larger when using this measure. We found similar discrepancies between median and average in our data set, but more on that in a minute.

We also found out this week that Governor Kasich is gearing up to start supporting Romney. And we wondered how John Kasich would do if we applied the same test to him. We had low expectations given the fact that Kasich famously defended his own failure to appoint women cabinet members by saying “I’m married to a woman with two daughters, OK?” adding “I’ve said all along, I really wish I could get some guys around me.” It turns out we were correct to have doubts.

We reviewed the salaries of state employees listed as Governor’s Office staff on the DAS state employee salary list as of 3/24/2012 – the most recent data set available – and identified each of the staffers as male or female. And then we looked at the numbers.

If we take the average yearly salaries for men and women, we end up with a 56% difference in favor of men:

Women: $49,498.52
Men: $77,730.88

If we use the median, which is the same measure used in the Obama staff salary analysis, we end up with an even larger difference: 106%!

Women: $35,006.40
Men: $72,009.60

When you look at median income, Obama’s White House “may” pay women 18% less than men. But Republican Governor John Kasich pays his female staffers 106% less! The Obama pay story is a cute little distraction for Republicans offering them a few hours of rest from defending their own record on women’s issues. But when you look at the President’s numbers compared to Republicans like Kasich, the accusations look pretty pathetic.

With Kasich’s approval ratings in the toilet, and his history of issues with diversity, I predict smart Romney strategists are currently scrambling to find someone else to send on the campaign trail with Mitt instead of Mr. “I really wish I could get some guys around me” Kasich. http://www.plunderbund.com/2012/04/17/john-kasich-pays-female-staffers
-56-less-than-men/
]
Nor are we discussing the fact that in arguing that women fared worse under the Obama administration Romney and his advisers dodge the central issue of wage deflation and market contraction for women that comes with an assault on the public sector workforce.

Let’s also remember that in talking about whether or not stay-at-home-mothers are of equal, lesser, or greater value to mothers who work outside the home we are no longer talking about the fact that Republican assaults on health care means that women have even fewer options to chose to stay home or to work so the idea of “choice” becomes effectively meaningless.

...we're no longer talking about the right’s very real assault on women’s choices and options. Rosen’s comments, which were nothing short of stupid, play right into the persecution complex of the right and gave the Romney camp the opportunity to wage a Breitbart-style campaign of distraction.

So let’s remember that as the right fans the flames of the mommy wars and as too many on the left readily dive right in. Each second we spend “debating” this topic is one less spent on the very real and daily assault on women’s rights. http://www.care2.com/causes/romney-camp-reignites-the-mommy-wars.html, and let's not forget Scott Walker's recent move on equal pay for women:
Quote:


Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker opened up a new front in the GOP's war against women last week when he overturned his state's equal pay law, which made it easier for workers to sue their employers for wage discrimination.

Walker, a rising star in the Republican party, has come under fire for his decision to repeal the law, which was passed largely to address Wisconsin's huge gap in male and female wages. Since the equal pay law was passed in 2009, the state has risen from 36th to 24th in national gender pay parity rankings.

Walker has stayed remarkably silent about the move, and has yet to comment publicly on his decision. But the Daily Beast reports that his fellow Badger State Republicans have not been as quiet, arguing that wage discrimination was never really a major problem to begin with and that the equal pay law put an undue burden on businesses.

But Grothman didn't stop there. According to him, wage gaps are not the result of discrimination, but actually just a reflection of the fact that men and women prioritize earning money differently.

"You could argue that money is more important for men," he said. "I think a guy in their first job, maybe because they expect to be a breadwinner someday, may be a little more money-conscious. To attribute everything to a so-called bias in the workplace is just not true.”*

*Women are actually primary or co-breadwinner in two-thirds of American households. http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-09/politics/31311795_1_wag
e-gaps-wage-discrimination-daily-beast
Republican strategist makes even less sense:
Quote:

A GOP strategist on Sunday denied that women make less money in the workplace than their male counterparts.

Responding to Rachel Maddow's comment that "women in this country still make 77 cents on the dollar for what men make," Alex Castellanos said on 'Meet The Press'. "Not exactly ... actually, if you start looking at the numbers Rachel, there are lots of reasons for that."

"Don't tell me the reasons, do women make less than men for doing the same work?" Maddow shot back.

"Actually, because for example, men work an average of 44 hours a week, women work 41 hours a week," he said. "Men go into professions like engineering, science and math that earn more. Women want more flexibility."

Despite Castellanos' claims, new research shows that women make considerably less than men in the workplace. A study published by American Association of University Women, based on U.S. census data, found that on average, women make 23 cents less than men.

In some industries, the gap is even worse. A recent Bloomberg study found that women on Wall Street make between 55 and 62 cents for every dollar their male counterparts make. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/29/alex-castellanos-gender-wage-
gap-equal-pay-women_n_1462795.html
about we look at the country as a whole? You can find the wage gap by state at http://www.nationalpartnership.org/site/PageNavigator/engage_signup_le
dbetter.html?gclid=CJD8ooSjmbACFaUZQgod5Rx52A


Just for the fun of it, let's compare what women earn to what men do in some of the top Republican and Democratic states:

Top Republican states:

Kansas: 74 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $11,569 between full-time working men and women in the state

Louisiana: 67 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $14,924

Utah: 69 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $14,446

Idaho: 74 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $10,725

Wyoming 64 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $18,

Alaska: 75 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $14,267

North Dakota: 73 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $11,


Top Democratic states:

California: 84 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $8,151.

D.C.: 91 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $5,254

Hawaii: 80 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $9,201

Maryland: 83 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $9,842

New York: 83 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $8,658

Massachusetts: 81 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $10,746

Vermont: 84 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $6,671


So, in the most Democratic states, the gender gap is MUCH less than in the most Republican states.

The White House passed the Lilly Ledbetter act, which would require equal pay for ALL women; Scott Walker REPEALED the Wisconsin equal-pay law, and Grothman DEFENDED it by saying equal pay was never really a problem; Obama's White House gender gap is 5% BETTER than Bush's.

Wanna keep playing?

(Anyone know how many men were employed by the Bush White House, as opposed to men, compared to Obama? Anyone know how many men work for Senators/Congressmen, as opposed to how many women? Those would probably be fun statistics, too)


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Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:59 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The piece doesn't say anywhere that the men and women staffers compared were in equivalent positions. Could it just be that there were more senior male staffers than women?

It's not personal. It's just war.



I was gonna ask that. Do Senatorial staff get seniority raises? Have all these staffers been on the job the same length of time? Are there facts regarding this question?

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


FACTS?! You want FACTS?!? "We don' need no stinking FACTS!!" (comes the cry from the right...)


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Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Let’s also remember that in talking about whether or not stay-at-home-mothers are of equal, lesser, or greater value to mothers who work outside the home we are no longer talking about the fact that Republican assaults on health care means that women have even fewer options to chose to stay home or to work so the idea of “choice” becomes effectively meaningless.




And if stay-at-home moms are of equal value, what do they get paid? And why are GOP elected officials supporting measures that would restrict stay-at-home moms' access to credit?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Meanwhile, the Obama administration pays female staffers 18% less than male staffers.

But since the national average is females being paid TWENTY-THREE PERCENT LESS, you could say that Obama is paying five percent above the average.

But then the righties would howl that he's paying too much, and needs to cut back on such wasteful spending...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:24 AM

CAVETROLL


Look up the Lily Ledbetter act, which Obama signed into law in 2009. This latest round of "fair pay" posturing is all smoke and mirrors. This is already established law. Under Obama, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has filed six gender-based wage discrimination lawsuits. That number is down from 18 lawsuits filed during Bush’s second term.

But you would have known that had you read the whole article I linked.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:08 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The piece doesn't say anywhere that the men and women staffers compared were in equivalent positions. Could it just be that there were more senior male staffers than women?

It's not personal. It's just war.



I was gonna ask that. Do Senatorial staff get seniority raises? Have all these staffers been on the job the same length of time? Are there facts regarding this question?



It's this.

Go look at the tables that site has links to. You will find that there are a greater number of men in higher positions then women. Those higher positions get paid more and throw off the results.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 10:50 AM

WHOZIT


Yet another story for MSNBC and CNN to ignore.

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Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:22 AM

STORYMARK


It's not okay.

Which still doesn't make any of the "War on Women" actions okay, either.

Hows your glass house?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, May 25, 2012 7:51 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Look up the Lily Ledbetter act, which Obama signed into law in 2009. This latest round of "fair pay" posturing is all smoke and mirrors. This is already established law. Under Obama, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has filed six gender-based wage discrimination lawsuits. That number is down from 18 lawsuits filed during Bush’s second term.

But you would have known that had you read the whole article I linked.




So you're saying that (1) it's no big deal, because there's a federal law that mandates equal pay for equal work, and (2) gender-based wage discrimination is down 67% since the signing of that law.

So you're saying that your original post was all smoke and mirrors signifying nothing much?

On that, we are in agreement.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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