REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It's called "torture" Mr. Bush

POSTED BY: GHOULMAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 05:55
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12037
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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:25 AM

GHOULMAN


Hi,
It's been a wild week of torture fun in Iraq! Found this rather well done article that details some of the things that have been going on. I hope this is OK to post in "General Dissin'" *chuckle*.

Things I've learned...
Torture is policy in Iraq for the US Army.
The Pentagon, President, and Rumsfled knew about it since January.

IMPEACH GEORGE DUBYA BUSH!



BUSH IN PANIC BID TO CURB TORTURE SCANDAL

May 6 2004

Arab fury at President's grovel on TV

From Anthony Harwood Us Editor In New York


PRESIDENT Bush went on Arab TV yesterday in a desperate attempt to quell the growing scandal over abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

But as he condemned it as "abhorrent" and not a reflection of "the America I know", more disturbing details were emerging of savagery at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

A captive is said to have been battered to death and then wrapped in ice and Cellophane in an apparent bid to disguise the brutality.

At least 14 deaths of US captives in Afghanistan and Iraq are now put down to American ill-treatment or are under investigation. Ten possible cases of abuse are being probed.

Yesterday - heightening Mr Bush's discomfort - US military investigators revealed a full rundown of the abuse at Abu Ghraib, from where pictures of sexual humiliation shocked the world when shown on CBS last week.

The dossier detailed more than 20 kinds of offence, including the pouring of chemicals on detainees, use of dogs to intimidate captives, acts of sexual assault and violent beatings.

Labour MP Ann Clwyd is also investigating the case of a 73-year-old Iraqi woman at Abu Ghraib who says she was hooded, made to go on all fours, told she was a donkey and was then "ridden" by her tormentors.

Amid the tide of allegations against his country, Mr Bush gave a grovelling interview to the US-funded Arabic TV station, Al-Hurra: "The actions of these few people do not reflect the hearts of the American people.

"The American people are just as appalled as Iraqis over images broadcast around the world of naked detainees and gloating US soldiers at the prison."

Bush, clearly on the spot but stopping short of an outright apology, added: "It's important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy everything is not perfect. Mistakes are made. But in a democracy as well, those mistakes will be investigated and the people brought to justice."

Al-Hurra's output is generally viewed in the region as propaganda. But a second Bush interview was broadcast later on the more popular Al-Arabiya channel.

Bush, speaking from the White House, told the Dubai-based station: "This is a serious matter, a matter that reflects badly on our country. This is a free country. We do not tolerate this kind of abuse."

He dismissed the suggestion that Americans were no better than Saddam Hussein. "A dictator wouldn't be answering questions about this," he said.

"The people in the Middle East must understand this is horrible but we are dealing with it in way that will bring confidence to not only our citizens...but confidence to people in the world that this situation will be rectified and justice will be done."

Later, White House spokesman Scott McClellan used the word "sorry" a half dozen times.

"The president is sorry for what occurred and the pain it has caused," he said. Asked why Bush himself had not apologised, McClellan said: "I'm saying it now for him." In a separate interview with Al-Arabiya, US national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said: "We are deeply sorry for what has happened to these people, and what the families must be feeling.

"It's just not right. And we will get to the bottom of what happened.''

Last night, as the Arab world lashed out at Bush's attempts to placate them. Middle East expert Patrick Seale said the address was "totally unconvincing and ineffective".

Jordanian Jumana Ahmad said: "Talk is cheap. What's been done has been done and Bush's talking to an Arab network does not make it go away."

Sari Mouwaffaq, a Baghdad mechanic, said: "Bush's apology, or his attempt to find excuses, has no value to us."

Details of the "iced" body in Cellophane at Abu Ghraib came from Staff Sgt Chip Fredrerick - one of the soldiers reprimanded last week over abuses at the jail.

He talked about the victim - whose front teeth were missing and whose face had the marks of a brutal beating - in a journal he kept.

Fredrerick wrote that the man's body was packed in ice for 24 hours before medics "came in and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV (intravenous drip) in his arm and took him away."

The sergeant said that because the man was not given a number when he arrived at the jail, his death was not recorded.

In his Al-Arabiya interview, Mr Bush referred to the case as "more than an allegation...actual abuse - we saw the pictures". He promised a full investigation. On Tuesday it was revealed that two Iraqi prisoners had been murdered by American soldiers and a third shot while trying to escape.

The first victim was shot at an unnamed detention centre in Iraq last September after throwing rocks at a soldier.

The soldier was thrown out of the army for using excessive force, but he did not serve any time in jail.

A second victim was murdered at Abu Ghraib by a private interrogator working for the CIA. He also escaped prison as a contractor beyond army jurisdiction.

The CIA is also investigating two more deaths of prisoners at the hands of interrogators. One took place at an Afghan prison near the Pakistan border in June 2003 and the other at an unspecified location in Iraq.

The cases are among 27 deaths involving prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan since December 2002. Fourteen are under criminal investigation.

In the US, pressure was mounting on Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Senator John McCain said: "It's time the Defence Department turned over all documents to Congress."

In London, MPs on the Commons defence select committee want to question Daily Mirror editor Piers Morgan over pictures showing British troops torturing an Iraqi.

The committee said: "We will hold this session in the context of our already announced inquiry into the continuing operations in Iraq."

THE ABUSE

Pouring phosphoric liquid from broken chemical lights on prisoners

Threatening them with a loaded 9mm pistol

Pouring cold water on them naked

Beating them with a broom handle and a chair

Threatening men prisoners with rape

Allowing military police to stitch the wound of a detainee who had been slammed against his cell wall

Sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and possibly a broomstick

Using unmuzzled military dogs to intimidate prisoners and bite one

Punching, slapping and kicking detainees and jumping on their feet

Videoing and photographing naked men and women prisoners

Forcibly arranging them in sexually explicit positions for photos

Keeping them naked for several days at a time

Forcing men detainees to wear women''s underwear

Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate while being videoed and photographed

Arranging naked male prisoners in a pile then jumping on them

Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE (meals ready to eat) Box with a bag on his head and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture

Writing 'I am a Rapist' on the leg of a prisoner alleged to have raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee

Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and getting a woman soldier to pose for a photo

A male MP guard having sex with a woman prisoner

Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees
---

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


It's little more than "hazing", not torture. Sorry, but this is war.
I'd write a big long bit about how some soldiers clearly did over step their bounds and should ( make that WILL ) get punishment,but whats the point, most of what I'd say would be ignored anyways.

It's the information that is MISSING from your post Ghoulman, as much as what is exaggerated or taken out of context, that I think is important to understand. Not all prisoners are the same. Whether some know more than others and it's vital that we try to assertain what that prisoner knows, or whether some have tried to kill their guards, those things get completely ignored by the general public.

There is no basis what so ever to post nonsense like this or to ask for the Impeachment of President Bush, Ghoulman. And this is nothing but a clear attempt by your kind to politicize EVERYTHING for the sole purpose of gaining the White House, not for the good of the country, but merely for the good of the Democratic Party. I only hope most Americans are wise enough to see through the blind partisanship like yours. Makes it kinda tough when the left wing media offers its own spin/commentary when it delivers the ' news'.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:56 AM

NOOCYTE


Oy.

Department of Redundancy Department

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:15 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Any abuse, mistreatment, or torture of prisoners or detainees in U.S. custody should be punished, and all those involved should be held accountable.

Bush said in his statement that this is a "mark on the honor of the United States" and he is correct, moreso than he probably knows. I can only hope that he uses every resource to investigate these crimes and bring the guilty to justice.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:18 AM

LIZ


thank you Browncoat1. i was thinking the same thing.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:18 AM

DTT


By the way, it's PRESIDENT Bush. You salute the rank, not the man.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 4:49 AM

KNIBBLET


Murder is not hazing. Torture is not hazing. Physical abuse is not hazing.

Everything that was done in these incidents is illegal. Starting in basic training, one is taught what is legal and what isn't.

This is a systematic problem and one where enlisted people are going to be sacrificed to save the sorry asses of the folks who really need to be in jail.

Who needs to be pursued? The CIA, authorities in Military Intelligence, Diplomats, executives and of course, Rummy.

We go to war based on a pile of stinky lies. We hear continuous justification for the war - those justifications changing every day as more lies are exposed. We learn our government engages in torture and other lovely activities and to protest all this is somehow unAmerican?

To point out lies and object to torture is anti-Bush spin?

Support Our Troops - Impeach Bush

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:11 AM

GHOULMAN


Hazing? *Ghoulman quickly throws a bag over AURaptor then masterbates and comes onto AURaptors' head. All the while riding him like a donkey*

Ya know... there is this thing called the Geneva Convention...

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:14 AM

ASTRIANA


Normally I don't get involved in these conversations, and y'all know I love ya more'n my luggage, but I'd just like to point out to Ghoulman that there are CHILDREN on this board, reading the same posts we are. Please do us all a favor (but especially Haken), and refrain from the kind of nonsense in your latest post.

~A~

El Jefé Magnifico de la ThisLand Brownitopia' Mistress... of Communications and Harems! (Browncoats, you got some smutty minds! )

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:15 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
This is a systematic problem and one where enlisted people are going to be sacrificed to save the sorry asses of the folks who really need to be in jail.

Who needs to be pursued? The CIA, authorities in Military Intelligence, Diplomats, executives and of course, Rummy.


Nicely put. And weird... these powerful leaders are the people AURaptors is protecting. Why?

Rumsfled should have resigned yesterday... no question the rest of the world (and the majority of Americans I suspect) will see this as a rubber stamp of approval for torture policy and crimes commited by the USA abroad.

Wow, it just gets worse and worse the more you find out about what's going eh?

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:17 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
Murder is not hazing. Torture is not hazing. Physical abuse is not hazing.

Everything that was done in these incidents is illegal. Starting in basic training, one is taught what is legal and what isn't.

This is a systematic problem and one where enlisted people are going to be sacrificed to save the sorry asses of the folks who really need to be in jail.

Who needs to be pursued? The CIA, authorities in Military Intelligence, Diplomats, executives and of course, Rummy.

We go to war based on a pile of stinky lies. We hear continuous justification for the war - those justifications changing every day as more lies are exposed. We learn our government engages in torture and other lovely activities and to protest all this is somehow unAmerican?

To point out lies and object to torture is anti-Bush spin?

Support Our Troops - Impeach Bush

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."



Unfortunately, none of the things going on right now in Iraq or which implicate the Bush administration, are new to the federal government.

Our forefathers warned long ago that a central government with too much power was the road to ruin. There are many instances in history of abuse of that power and the outcry of the people at injustices. Starting w/ the Lincoln administration in the 1860s, right up to today the federal government has proven time and again that they will abuse the power they took for themselves.

I truly hope those responsible for these crimes are punished, but knowing the feds, sacrifices will be made of soldiers, and lower ranking officials, while the politicians and high ranking officials skate right out of harms way.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:18 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Astriana:
Normally I don't get involved in these conversations, and y'all know I love ya more'n my luggage, but I'd just like to point out to Ghoulman that there are CHILDREN on this board, reading the same posts we are. Please do us all a favor (but especially Haken), and refrain from the kind of nonsense in your latest post.

~A~

El Jefé Magnifico de la ThisLand Brownitopia' Mistress... of Communications and Harems! (Browncoats, you got some smutty minds! )


Are you serious?

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:22 AM

ASTRIANA


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Are you serious?

As a heart attack, my friend. Note: The post referred to is the one directly preceding my original statement.

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:26 AM

GHOULMAN


^^^ Sorry. I think it's just fine. I will not edit it. Sorry if you disagree but I believe you're being incredibly prudish. No, I don't make a habit of this sort of thing but it's so in context with this thread (and funny and insults that jerk in context... boy I'm good!)! Again, I don't think kids would be 'hurt' in any way reading this. In fact, I hope kids are reading this.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:29 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


All slams towards your President aside, this situation generates several problems.

Credibility in the minds of the Arab world. In order to maintain any relationship other than hostile, you will likely have to punish the offenders very publicly and very harshly.

The second is treatment of prisoners on the other side. So far this has been a little mixed as the enemy force consists of such a mixed bag of groups. The recent escape of the Haliburton truck driver shows that some prisoners have been treated relatively well, after this fiasco will the treatment of these prisoners change? Will they be subjected to the same crap as their Iraqi counterparts?

Incidently, I believe the US has been very reckless in its used of Civilian contractors in military positions. Using these people as Security, Driving Logistics, etc places them in a Military function. Mercenarys in other word and as such they have no legal status or protection under the Geneva Convention. Not that I want to see things happen to these people, I would suggest pulling them out and replacing them with proper troops if the US stays in Iraq, or Afganistan for that matter.

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:33 AM

ASTRIANA


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ Sorry. I think it's just fine. I will not edit it. Sorry if you disagree but I believe you're being incredibly prudish. No, I don't make a habit of this sort of thing but it's so in context with this thread (and funny and insults that jerk in context... boy I'm good!)! Again, I don't think kids would be 'hurt' in any way reading this. In fact, I hope kids are reading this.

You are free to believe what you like, and I'll support that with my last breath. I was not making a commentary on whether your post would "hurt" anyone, simply that it might be considered inappropriate material and could cause Haken considerable trouble. Edit it or don't as you choose.

Please note distinct lack of snarky tone.

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:35 AM

GHOULMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
All slams towards your President aside, this situation generates several problems.

Credibility in the minds of the Arab world. In order to maintain any relationship other than hostile, you will likely have to punish the offenders very publicly and very harshly.

The second is treatment of prisoners on the other side. So far this has been a little mixed as the enemy force consists of such a mixed bag of groups. The recent escape of the Haliburton truck driver shows that some prisoners have been treated relatively well, after this fiasco will the treatment of these prisoners change? Will they be subjected to the same crap as their Iraqi counterparts?

Incidently, I believe the US has been very reckless in its used of Civilian contractors in military positions. Using these people as Security, Driving Logistics, etc places them in a Military function. Mercenarys in other word and as such they have no legal status or protection under the Geneva Convention. Not that I want to see things happen to these people, I would suggest pulling them out and replacing them with proper troops if the US stays in Iraq, or Afganistan for that matter.


^^^ sounds like Lou Dobbs *chuckle*. Speaking of Mercenaries... anyone notice the American Mercenary arrested for the train bombings in Spain?

Who are these people???

Things that make you go... Hmmmm.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:42 AM

GHOULMAN


Thanx Astriana, certainly if Haken comes along and wants it gone... well, his house.

And Firefly is a rather mature show, I wonder just what you might find appropreate considering this show has featured the sort of sex act I mentioned above (sort of). So I'm a little surprised you think this. Anyho, gotta love ya for standin' up.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:46 AM

TALVIN


OK, guys. This is doing nobody any good.

There are plenty of valid forums for discussion of this topic, and I am the last person to say that the topic should not be discussed.

But not here.

I'll even say this, because this started with a condemnation of the CinC:

I am a Democrat.

I suppose I am technically a Liberal.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS (explosive diarrhea of an elephant) ON THIS BOARD. It's not the appropriate place for it, ever.

Haken, please put a ban on these threads? They are taking over what should be a place for Browncoats to discuss their favorite show and come together as a community. It saddens me that some people on both sides of the political fence can't get that.

"I give up. I admit it. I'm a Browncoat."

"And I vote."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:47 AM

BLACKOUTNIGHTS


Man, this kind of thing really irks me. I was at a republican debate last night where one of the candidates criticized the press for reporting on the incident. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Heaven forbid we report on the abuse of military power. The things these "soldiers", and I use that term loosely, did are unprofessional and immature.

Of course party politics plays into it. It's an election year. But that's a two-way street, my friend. Make no mistake, by putting off these irresponsible acts as mere partisan politics, the republican party is playing that game just as much as the democrats. Don't give me the "but, this is war" rhetoric. Sure, war involves killing and death and atrocities beyond naming, but we're referring here to prisoners of war. How do you feel about the beatings the POW's in Vietnam suffered?

All that being said, administration is not to blame unless it knew of the abuse and did nothing to correct it. Until proven otherwise, I refuse to believe that's the case here. Though I voted for Gore last time, Bush has my support — and my vote — because he's done a phenomenal job with the taxes and offered incentives for auto companies to develop altenative fuels.

Speaking of fuels, that's something else that bothers me. I think the foreign nations are raising the price to spur popular opinion and get Bush out of office. I have no evidence or proof of this. That's just how it seems.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:52 AM

GHOULMAN


To TALVIN - Well, I can't but ask why not? Are browncoats just TV geeks with no interest outside a TV show? Why can't browncoats get together on politics? Religion? Sex? You know... issues that are very well represented by Firefly.

Firefly isn't a childrens show, it's got all these things as integeral elements in the lives of the characters. Just as these things are integral to you and me.

I can see where you are right of course, it might seem like a 'positive' thing to keep the BBS a nice, quiet, geeky fanboy discussion site. But for me, and I suspect the more mature Firefly audience, I can only discuss Serenitys' engine proporties for so long.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 5:55 AM

DORAN


I was afraid of this; any warped person that dislikes the US will now come forward and claim, "I was 'tortured'" "I was forced to wear a doggie chain and howl at the moon." "they slapped me with a balonie" "they turned me into a newt.. well, I got better." It was just a matter of time.

The thing that urks me the most is that somehow these reports of abuse are "extremely horrible", more horrible than anything ever, but if we instead released the prisoners shot them, burned them at the stake, dragged their burn bodies around in the streets and then hung them from bridges, that would be ok, because that's in the battlefield and it's war.

Shouldn't this behavior not be offensive at all to Iraqis.. after all "they are not ready for democracy" "They are only used to trannical rule" right? It's the Americans that should be the most offended because we expect better of ourselves and our enemies.

Our enemies are using this incident to it's full advantage... to fan hatrd both here and in the middle east. It doesn't matter if Bush had taken personal responsiblity and offered to compensate these "victims"; Bush could have lay protrate at their feet and apologized and it would do no good. They hate, they hate, they hate.. just like the liberals. Even if the US pulled out now they would still hate and still fight against their "great satan".

And they do look at the USA as their "great satan" which has nothing to do with president Bush.. That's just they way they have been raised... they were raised like KKK children.. kids being taught "who do we hate?" "we hate the USA!" Long before George Bush was a public figure the USA was hated by Muslims..
They would be a much different group without the hate which they will never let loose of.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:02 AM

MAUGWAI


I agree that the torture is horrible and we should investigate it and own up to it. However, I would like to know the publication where you found this article. As someone who works in journalism, I have to say this reporter has a very unprofessional technique. If I had to guess, I'd say he writes for an Arab newspaper. So we need to keep that in mind. This reporter clearly has an agenda, so some of his information is probably exaggerated.

I am not trying to imply at all that the abuse didn't happen or that it is in any way excusable. I just want to point out that we need to separate the propaganda from the facts.


"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:06 AM

TALVIN


To GHOULMAN:

Because we are a community, one that you have clearly disparaged and do not consider yourself part of. If you feel this is so important, go start your own. "Browncoats against Bush" if you like, or whatever.

This community has nothing to do with "engine properties" and a great deal to do with support and friendship. Your reply to my post shows that your main interest is in starting a fight, and that means you do not belong here.

Now leave.


"I give up. I admit it. I'm a Browncoat."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:08 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Ghoulman wrote:

Quote:

^^^ sounds like Lou Dobbs *chuckle*. Speaking of Mercenaries... anyone notice the American Mercenary arrested for the train bombings in Spain?

Who are these people???



Just because this mercenary can claim American citizenship, does not mean his actions were done w/ the knowledge or support of other American citizens or what passes for our government in Washington, DC. Big difference.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:10 AM

SUCCATASH



Talvin,

Stop telling people what to say and how to act.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:10 AM

ASTRIANA


Quote:

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Thanx Astriana, certainly if Haken comes along and wants it gone... well, his house.

That's all I'm sayin'...

Quote:

And Firefly is a rather mature show, I wonder just what you might find appropreate considering this show has featured the sort of sex act I mentioned above (sort of). So I'm a little surprised you think this.
That's a topic for a whole other thread, but suffice it to say I'm not nearly the prude you might think I am, darlin'.

Quote:

Anyho, gotta love ya for standin' up.
There's that Browncoat spirit!

---We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate... ---

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:19 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Doran:
They hate, they hate, they hate.. just like the liberals.


Pardon me? What exactly do I hate?

I am an American from a long line of military veterans. I am a veteran married to a military retiree.

My volunteer job is recording college text books for the blind. I volunteer teaching children to read. I go to church (sometimes), I am active in my community. I've voted in every election since I turned 18.

I love my country. I love what is left of my constitution. I believe that we should live by a higher standard. We signed the Geneva Conventions - we are bound to uphold them.

Thank you for pointing out to me that I'm a liberal hater. What exactly is liberal about wanting freedom of religion and power over my own destiny. What exactly do I hate?


"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:21 AM

HKCAVALIER


Geez AURaptor,

So all the abused prisoners "had it coming?" Because they had attacked guards and the like? Is this what is called "the punishment fitting the crime?"

You say:
Quote:

I'd write a big long bit about how some soldiers clearly did over step their bounds and should ( make that WILL ) get punishment,but whats the point, most of what I'd say would be ignored anyways.


Is this a plea for pity? Nobody cares about what the poor little reactionary has to say? Sorry, but your persecution complex is showing. Well, in the unforgettable words of Luke Skywalker, let me say this: "I care."

You do have some kind of a point, because even though hazing is illegal on every college campus in the land as well as at every millitary academy, it is still a big part of these cultures. It is what goes on. No one should be too surprised.

But one of the reasons hazing continues to flourish in spite of strict laws forbidding it is that the hazees, for the most part, willingly participate as part of their innition into the group. That's what differentiates the torture that goes on as part of hazing and mere torture. Furthermore, in actual hazing, those doing the hazing have themselves been subject to the same abuse when they joined the organization (at least, that's how it's supposed to work). And, indeed, I'm sure that the men in these organizations have and will justify the rape of female caddets, for instance, as hazing as well, even though such women will never be in a position to continue such "traditions" themselves. But just because you torture pledges with broomhandles and call it hazing, doesn't mean you can just torture with broomhandles anyone you feel like and call that hazing. See what I mean?

But, as you say, this is war. As a soldier it is your job to destroy people. When you are faced with an enemy that is wholely in your power and at your mercy you may continue trying to destroy them because that's what you are conditioned to do. But that's why we have what is called "international law."

That you, AURaptor, could call what is happening to the POWs in Iraq "hazing" is a hateful misuse of the term. These are prisoners of war, they have committed no crime, they are not Saddam Hussein, and they are not being invited to join a frat. They are human beings worthy of respect. What part of "worthy of respect" don't you understand?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:42 AM

DORAN


"Pardon me? What exactly do I hate?"

If you are a liberal you hate George Bush; you hate him because he won the election.. you hate him because he's President.. and it's really all boils down to that.

All the anti George Bush crap is put forth many times without any real documentation mainly as a product of Bush hate. I'm sorry but I do buy the Bush is really evil arguement.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:44 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


It is not about whether someone "had it coming" or it was "payback" for some reason or another. It is about honor and about holding ourselves to a code of conduct and being accountable for infractions against others basic rights.

A soldier is a warrior. He has the obligation of protecting those that can not protect themselves, and to defend the rights of those unable to defend themselves. A soldier wages war against other soldiers, not civilians or non-combatants. Non combatants of course includes prisoners of war and detainees. That is not to say that the soldier should let his guard down or being drinking buddies w/ prisoners. A soldier has every right to defend themselves and their comrades, but not to overstep the bounds of human rights or the Geneva Conventions.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Friday, May 7, 2004 6:50 AM

HERO


I can't put it better then everybody else has already done.

Here's my take, or as I call it, the correct opinion.

What happened to the Iraqi prisoners was a violation of international law. So what? The US is not a signatory to the International War Crimes court. There is no international remedy for the crimes abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

A nation is bound by treaty only so far as it chooses to be or is forced by other nations to be so bound, a fact Saddam has recently learned. The United States chooses to hold itself responsible for its conduct in war and its treaty obligations. The abuses committed by members of the US military will be remedied using the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The crimes will be investigated, soldiers will be charged and the guilty convicted and punished. If the involvement of higher officers and administration officials can be proven, they to will be tried and punished.

As for the alleged participation of "civilian contractors" they will be likewise charged in civilian courts for violations of Federal Laws regarding the treatment of prisoners.

It is important to note the following. We are the good guys. Hence the rule of law and transparency of process will govern all aspects of this investigation.

Bad guys don't play by these rules. When they commit similar or more heinous crimes, there are no repurcussions. Take a moment to consider the mass graves and as well as the inclusion of a torture chamber in every govt building in Iraq. These existed and were in use for twenty years with little if any comment by the press.

I am greatly disappointed in the conduct of our soldiers and I welcome the media scrutiny. Never the less the failure is one of local leadership rather then national policy. It is a criminal matter, not political, and should be handled as such.


H

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Friday, May 7, 2004 7:38 AM

WEERWOLF


To Auraptor: I got a quote for you. You need to extrapolate a bit to the value of human life though to get my point:

"How we treat our dead is part of what makes us different from those that did the slaughtering."

Replace "our dead" with "the living" and no doubt you'll get my point.

Besides, you got Saddam, what else would you want to be degrading/torturing prisoners for? I thought the soldiers were there to guide the Iraqi people to democracy and a stable government. Now.

How d'you expect to get the Iraqi people to take you serious as a 'guiding force' if you give them the example as published in many newspapers? Isn't practices like those shown in the pictures the reason that Saddam was deigned unfit to run a country? Aren't the foreigners in Iraq supposed to show that things will be better once Saddam's away? Instead of the same-old same-old?

Pictures like that will prove to the Iraqis opposing the invasion that they were right all along: US and British (and maybe other countries' as well...) soldiers are rabid dogs that should be put down because they got no respect for the Iraqi people. I can hear the slogans already, people in the streets of Bagdad and Fallujah waving placards with those pictures.

Great going! Get those Iraqi people who were still unsure about whether the invasion was a good thing or not, over on the opposing side! Kill them in job lots! 'd Be easier than guiding them through a democratic process, for sure.

Yeah, great role modelling there. Huzzah!!!

"Besides, if I mess up, it's not likely you'll be able to yell at me."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 8:24 AM

DORAN


I would have to argue that our enemy has dictated most of our conduct. After all they have tortured and killed civilians.. they have killed 3000+ civilians that that never offened them.. and now well, Osama has just upped the antie..

Osama bin Laden is offering rewards to those 'good' Muslims who manage to kill senior coalition figures? He has also said that any Muslim who captures a female coalition soldier can keep her as his sex slave. How many times have we heard denial of the Al Qaida connection in Iraq?

So is this next, are we going to see the USA capturing terrorist women to be used as sex slaves?

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Friday, May 7, 2004 8:27 AM

DORAN


For the jihadists, at stake in the war against the infidels is the control of women. Western freedom means the end of women's mastery by men, and the end of dictatorial clerical control over all aspects of sexuality -- in dress, behavior, education, the arts..."

This is what it is really all about to Osama.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/charleskrauthammer/ck20040507.shtml

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Friday, May 7, 2004 8:46 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Doran:
I would have to argue that our enemy has dictated most of our conduct... they have killed 3000+ civilians that that never offened them..



Perhaps you were too busy slurping up all of Bush's lies, but it's been proven - strongly proven - that Al Quaida and Saddam DID NOT conspire, work together or otherwise cooperate with one another.

Saddam and Iraq had NOTHING to do with the September 11th attacks.

*this just in* Saddam is also not responsible for the Chicago fire. (Mrs. O'Leary's cow has also been cleared).

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 9:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

By the way, it's PRESIDENT Bush. You salute the rank, not the man.


DTT, Oh, I'm sorry, my mistake. I always thought they were saying "RESIDENT" Bush! I thought for sure that was his rank.
-----------------------

Quote:

However, I would like to know the publication where you found this article.

Ahh, Mugwai. Ever wanting to know who said what to discern the truth. I guess that's the difference between journalists and scientists. If I want to know what two plus two is, I do the math. You, on the other hand, would want to see the textbook where it originated!
However, FYI altho I don't know WHERE the article came from, I saw much of the same reporting on Asia Times.

-----------------------------

Quote:

All the anti George Bush crap is put forth many times without any real documentation mainly as a product of Bush hate

Without documentation???

Without documentation? What kind of docs are you looking for???

Quote:

they have killed 3000+ civilians that that never offened them


Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Quote:

.. and now well, Osama has just upped the antie..


Did you mean "upped the ante" or "upped the auntie"?
heh heh heh

Quote:

Western freedom means the end of women's mastery by men, and the end of dictatorial clerical control over all aspects of sexuality -- in dress, behavior, education, the arts...


I suppose you never listened to the far religious right here in the good-old USA?

---------------------------

Quote:

The US is not a signatory to the International War Crimes court


Hero, we DID sign the "Geneva Convention"?

Quote:

As for the alleged participation of "civilian contractors" they will be likewise charged in civilian courts for violations of Federal Laws regarding the treatment of prisoners.

There is at this point NO LAW concerning CIA contractor's actions in foreign countries. The law only covers military contractors.

Quote:

It is important to note the following. We are the good guys

How many bad things do you have to do before you ARE a "bad guy"? Or are we "good guys" because our MOTIVES are good, even if our MEANS are fatal? Could never figure that one out, so any help is appreciated.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 10:35 AM

MAUGWAI


SIGNYM, please stop making your responses so condescending and personal. If you have a contribution to the conversation, try to do it in a respectful fashion. Most of the people who disagree here do it with respect for each others' opinion. Try to do the same, and we will respect your opinion as well.

Quote:

Ahh, Mugwai. Ever wanting to know who said what to discern the truth. I guess that's the difference between journalists and scientists. If I want to know what two plus two is, I do the math. You, on the other hand, would want to see the textbook where it originated!


Perhaps that's my journalistic background, to always try to see both sides of the issue. I do that by obtaining as many facts as possible and determining whether or not the source of those facts is reliable. Do scientists not use that method?



"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 11:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You're right, I was condescending and I'm sorry and I edited my post to be respectful. Well, I HOPE it's respectful by now!

The answer to your question is ... no, scientists do not (or, at least they shouldn't!) determine the truth by the the reliability of the source. If they do... and there are too many examples where this has happened... then they don't understand the scientific method.

What a scientist does (or should do) is observe the facts, form a hypothesis to explain "How is this happening?" consistent with the facts, and then try to test the hypothesis to see if can be disproven. (A principle of the scientific method is that you can never prove a hypothesis, you can only disprove. If you want to know more, I'll explain later.)

You can test your hypothesis several different ways. The best way is to perform an experiment, and then have other scientists try to repeat the results. However, if we're dealing with something like mass psychology it's a little difficult to experiement! So you try to predict something based on your hypothesis (we will go to war) and see whether you have predicted properly. If not, it's back to the drawing board!

I'll give you a couple of examples of how scientists did NOT follow the scientific method, but in fact looked to "authority" for the answer, and got it all wrong:

Plate tectonics (drifting) was actually hypothesized by Wegener in 1915. His idea was laughed out of existance by European and North American authorities of the day.

H. pylori (bacteria) was originallly proposed as the causative agent of peptic ulcers by Dr Marshall (Australia) about 1980. However, because his paper didn't meet with American gastroenterology "expert" opinion, it took more than a decade for medicine to catch up with the facts.

In both cases, the "authorities" were wrong. Some simple experiments could have easily established the facts.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 11:48 AM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Talvin:
To GHOULMAN:

Because we are a community, one that you have clearly disparaged and do not consider yourself part of. If you feel this is so important, go start your own. "Browncoats against Bush" if you like, or whatever.

This community has nothing to do with "engine properties" and a great deal to do with support and friendship. Your reply to my post shows that your main interest is in starting a fight, and that means you do not belong here.

Now leave.


"I give up. I admit it. I'm a Browncoat."



Although I disagree with the manner of GhoulMans first post I definitely support the discussions of politics on this board. If it doesn't suit you fancy then don't post to the threads, don't read them and don't harass those who do.

Oh, and by the way, 'Tash and I seem to support Ghoulman. So then, wouldn't that make him belong after all?

And if this community has nothing to do with Serenity's engine properties (eg Firefly related things) then why even call it a Firefly community. It should then just be the stuff community. You might note that there is at least one other thread going right now that deals with the matter of Serenity's engine or engines in the FF 'verse in general.

But as have been basically said before, there is only so much Firefly that we can talk about since the content related to it is quite limited. And what do intelligent people do when faced with such things? They discuss politics, religion, etc. Those that don't want discuss something don't. Perhaps you should join that particular camp when it comes to these things and not let it bother you so much as the only thing you will succeed in doing is raising your blood pressure.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, May 7, 2004 12:30 PM

MAUGWAI


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The answer to your question is ... no, scientists do not (or, at least they shouldn't!) determine the truth by the the reliability of the source. If they do... and there are too many examples where this has happened... then they don't understand the scientific method.



Thanks for the courteous response.

I heard a story on NPR the other day about scientific studies to prove that one drug is better than another, but the studies were paid for by the winning drug. On closer investigation, the studies turned out to be skewed. So I think even in science, the source of your information is still improtant.

In the end, of course, you draw your conclusions your way, I'll draw mine my way. You're into science, I'm into research.

And I never thought this torture didn't happen. I just want to clarify the difference between what did happen and what is anti-American propaganda. People are so fond of blaming everything on the "liberal media". But there is no way that article was published by a legitimate American newspaper. I still want to know who did publish it. It's just my way to be very thorough. I tend to not believe anything unless I know where the information comes from.


"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, May 7, 2004 12:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Nicely put. And weird... these powerful leaders are the people AURaptors is protecting. Why?


Why? I'll tell you why. For starters, because of the SPECIFIC example you just gave. I said there WERE abuses, and those who committed those should and WILL be punished. Yet you want to gloss over the fact that there is no fake moral outrage by the media and the world opinion over....

- REAL murders, tortures , mutilations ..etc, that DID occur in Saddams prisons. Any deaths which occured while prisoners under US care were trying to escape, incite riots and attack guards. Sorry Charlie, but there was no systematic, routine dismemberments going on here. Just photos of chicks hauling around hooded naked guys on dog collars. Maplethorpe would be proud.

- Where are the photos of U.S. sevicemen/women who weren't treated so well ? They were shot in the back of the head and stacked up like lumber..geee, why is there no Congressional hearing on THOSE?? Oh yeah, because it was those bastards we caught and had in prison who DID THOSE crimes.

- Why is it that all those prisoners photographed didn't have fingers, hands or other parts of their bodies missing ? HMMMMM???? Because there was no gorram torture, you idiot. As occurs in WAR, what went on was no worse than psychological war fare for those guys, photos taken to show OTHER prisoners what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate. In fact, one of the prisoners says he wants to move to the United States, because he was treated so well by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the other MP's except for a very few sick a-holes who got caught and will get what they deserved.

So, lets compare: Under Saddam, a political dissident could be beaten, lose a eye, a tongue, a hand, a foot ( especially if he was on a losing Iraqi Olympic Soccer team - ouch! ), get electricuted in all sorts ways.....

Under US control, 99% of all prisioners were treated extremely fair, polite and with respect ( THEIR WORDS, NOT OURS ), except the very few which were mistreated. All of those folks came out with all their fingers and toes, both eyes, a tongue..etc... just a bit humiliated. Wow, given the choice of losing a body part ( under Saddam ) or being forced to participate in an naked cheerleading stundt...I'll take the latter.

Finally, if it comes to protecting Sec Def Rumsfeld or Islamic terrorist...I'll take the side of Rumsfeld, every time.

P.S. And Ghoulman, keep your sick sexual fantasies about others to yourself. There are kids who come here and read these boards. Try thinking about what you say BEFORE you open your pie hole,for once.


"They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:01 PM

DESANGRO


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:

Talvin,

Stop telling people what to say and how to act.



Agreed, definitely. I enjoy reading posts about the Firefly 'verse, but I also enjoy reading about what my fellow Browncoats have to say about RL issues. It helps me get to know y'all a bit better. Ghoulman hasn't done anything serious enough for a 'go now, and never come back' order, and if anyone is going to tell him to leave, it would be Haken who makes that decision.

That being said, I think that the photos of torture (yes, TOTURE, there is NO OTHER WORD FOR IT) are disgraceful and frightful. There's no curse in any tongue suitable for this. The saddest thing is the sheer sadistic selfishness of the torturers: they were having their sick little photo shoots while other American soldiers were dying and fighting. These photos will only make the troops' job on the ground more hellish. The possibility of my cousin Simone going over to Iraq (she is a National Guardswoman) makes me sick.

May God have mercy on the souls of those torturers, because the Justice Department should hit them for all that they're worth.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:13 PM

SMOKIN


Tourture....BAD

But I'd pay to see that stuff done to Osama and Hussain.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:44 PM

SIGMANUNKI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
- REAL murders, tortures , mutilations ..etc, that DID occur in Saddams prisons. Any deaths which occured while prisoners under US care were trying to escape, incite riots and attack guards. Sorry Charlie, but there was no systematic, routine dismemberments going on here. Just photos of chicks hauling around hooded naked guys on dog collars. Maplethorpe would be proud.

- Where are the photos of U.S. sevicemen/women who weren't treated so well ? They were shot in the back of the head and stacked up like lumber..geee, why is there no Congressional hearing on THOSE?? Oh yeah, because it was those bastards we caught and had in prison who DID THOSE crimes.



I could be wrong here, but, you seem to me to be minimizing the offense here. We are not debating what Saddam did, we are debating what the US did do, period.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
- Why is it that all those prisoners photographed didn't have fingers, hands or other parts of their bodies missing ? HMMMMM???? Because there was no gorram torture, you idiot. As occurs in WAR, what went on was no worse than psychological war fare for those guys, photos taken to show OTHER prisoners what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate. In fact, one of the prisoners says he wants to move to the United States, because he was treated so well by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the other MP's except for a very few sick a-holes who got caught and will get what they deserved.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but, electro-shock doesn't make people lose appendages does it? Again correct me if I'm wrong, but, is electro-shock a kind of torture?

And if you are likening this torture to psychological warfare then I'd have to say that I think that you are a fairly sick-minded individual. And you're going to have to provide proof of what that prisoner said. So, source please.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
just a bit humiliated. Wow, given the choice of losing a body part ( under Saddam ) or being forced to participate in an naked cheerleading stundt...I'll take the latter.


Your fallacy here is that you are making judgments on what these people think by western culture standards. This couldn't be more wrong as there culture is just too (and I mean way too) different for this to be justified.

And just for the record. This humiliation - as you put it - for them is pretty much worse than death. So, if you thought April was bad, just wait. The US has really called these guys out now, it's go time for the militant groups over there. And it won't matter to them whether it was just one or a couple that did it.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, May 7, 2004 1:52 PM

SIGMANUNKI


AURaptor, I quote you from here http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=5084#61093


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

I just come here to as a welcome escape from the "real" world, and it really bothers me that some of the most active threads are the ones where people have endless arguments over who is right or wrong.


I could not agree more. There is an entire net out there for folks to post their views on what goes on in the real world. This crap about " if you don't care to participate .....then don't click " is horse shit. This is a FIREFLY fans board. We're here to discuss FIREFLY and such related topics. If the owners would care to put up a politics board to discuss earthly matters, that's fine. But I see no reason to pollute this fine board with political myrmidons with their pointless hyperbole and posturing.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Aren't you being a hypocrite right now? I mean, you speak of people polluting this board with political discussions yet you contribute.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:04 PM

PBI


There's been a lot of hyperbole on both 'sides' of this issue. The assertion that this series of incidents was a deliberate policy decision made at the top levels of the US government is a bit hard for me to swallow, and I'm not a huge fan of the current US goverment.

Having said that, using the term 'abuse' to describe what's in those photos is very much an understatement, and is just as politcally motivated as the people accusing the US of doing this deliberately.

What happened to those prisoners - 'detainees' is also a euphamism to avoid following the Geneva Conventions, to which the US is a signatory - is torture, plain and simple, and a war crime. It's hard to face up to, no doubt about it. No one likes to admit that their soldiers have committed such acts, but when sch things occur, it's best to admit it, to deal with it, and move on.

Canada went through a similar incident in Somalia in 1993, and the episode was not easy to digest or admit to, and we made the same, or similar, mistakes the current US administration is making by not revealing the incident at once and by foot dragging and ultimately punishing only the grunts that did the deeds. Those in command bare as much responsibility, particularly if they knew or should have known, and did nothing. That particular doctrine, by the way, has been a more or less accepted Western military practice that grew out of the Nuremburg trails after WWII.

I'm a former soldier, a former NCO, and there is no way in hell any of those pictured in those photos have any legitimate defence. What was pictured in those photos was obvious torture. Best to admit it, it'll make the pain last much less longer.

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

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Friday, May 7, 2004 2:31 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


One thing that bother me is that the US went out of their way to not have their prisoners condition montiored by the International Red Cross. While some will no doubt argue why should they, prisoners held by the Iraqis don't get this, I would say that it would have provided independant third party verification that these prisoners were not mistreated. Right now with these pictures in the press, any prisoners held by Iraqi resistance groups are likely to be treated in the same or worse fashion, where as up to now, as in the case of the recently escaped Haliburton driver, they were not treated badly.

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

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Friday, May 7, 2004 3:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, electro-shock doesn't make people lose appendages does it?


A non sequitur. We didn't shock anyone, Saddam did. That is the point I'm making. We don't know in what context those pics were taken. We see a prisoner standing w/ electrodes connected to him at one end....and the other end..nothing. The wires weren't connected up to a car battery ...there was no electrode shock therapy going on. That is my point. It was psychological. I didn't say it was pretty, and I DID say bounds were overstepped by some US Reservist guards.[bold] But this IS war.[/bold] Sorry, but I'd rather strip a prisoner naked and make them BELIEVE something bad was going to happen if they didn't give us information that would save 1 American life. If that's sick , then fine by me. Better harrass 1 prisoner w/ psychology than to allow 10's of civillians / US Soldiers die from a car bomb. I'll make that choice EVERY time.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, May 7, 2004 3:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Aren't you being a hypocrite right now? I mean, you speak of people polluting this board with political discussions yet you contribute.


I didn't start this thread. Me not contributing to it won't make it go away. If lies ,distortions and absurdities are going to be posted here that are in reference to my country, I will make a choice on whether to respond or not, according to the terms of this board.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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