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The Rise and Fall of Western Civilisation

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Saturday, April 13, 2024 13:06
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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Despite the references to Australia and Europe, can you relate?

THE RISE AND FALL OF THE WEST - A TIMELINE

1215 - Signed by King John, the Magna Carta guarantees the liberties of the king's subjects and restricts his absolute power. The west is born.

1300s - 1600s - The Renaissance ushers in an age of scientific, intellectual and artistic inquiry and appreciation of ancient Greek and Roman civilisations. Martin Luther sparks the Protestant Reformation.

1440 - Gutenberg’s printing press leads ultimately to the west's greatest achievement: education for all.

1700s - The Enlightenment sees the rise of ideas of natural rights of humans thanks to philosophers including Kant, Bacon, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke and Hume. Adam Smith believes in the market being a democratic defence against tyranny.

1700s - 1800s - Industrial Revolution is accompanied by territorial expansion and colonisation.

1950 -Invention of the credit card.

1953 - Iran Coup. The CIA and MI6 organise their first "regime change", a coup to overthrow Mohammad Mosaddegh after he nationalised the Iranian oil industry. Cold War gathers momentum. The American dream comes true.

1962 –Vietnam War begins just as social revolutions get underway: JFK’s Camelot, sexual liberation, civil rights, women’s rights, rock 'n' roll, drugs, middle class emancipation.

1969 – First moon landing, Woodstock, Altamont. The west peaks with a guitar solo, a peace symbol and a handful of hallucinogens.

Early 1970s – The decline of the west begins as the Greek idea of individualism goes feral and mutates into the "me generation" – especially in the US.

1980s – Reaganism spawns a Gordon Gekko "greed is good" mindset, accompanied by a growing income disparity and the emptying of traditional churches.

1989 - Fall of Berlin Wall. Capitalism wins, parties hard and goes wild.

1990s – Rationalist economics. Globalisation. Mindless consumption.

2000s – Good education skews to the rich. Health care skews to the rich. Inequity skews to the poor.

2001 – USA is attacked. Invades Afghanistan and, two years later, Iraq.

2008 - Lehmann Brothers collapses, GFC, trillion dollar debts.

2011 - European sovereign debt crises. UK riots. Greek riots. Occupy Wall Street protests begin. Kyle Sandilands offends women. The west is doomed.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/society-is-past-its-use-
by-date-20111202-1oajg.html#ixzz1fe8csrU1


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Monday, December 5, 2011 3:08 AM

DREAMTROVE


Not sure. The sort of problems that plague Europe today have always plagued Europe. Corrupt bankers run amok, etc. was a problem in most of those centuries. Also, Asia was more prosperous than Europe through those many of those centuries, the Europeans just didn't know it was there. I think the situation is pretty much what it was.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:11 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


bump

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"2000s – Good education skews to the rich. Health care skews to the rich. Inequity skews to the poor."

Hello,

Clearly, this is a timeline with a skewed point of view. The described condition deserves to be limited to no particular date.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:22 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Plus ça change, plus ça la meme chose.

Tis nothing new.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony's got it, so does CTS.

As for the pattern, it may be a semi-global one now, but the pattern of empires has pretty much been the same throughout history. What CTS said, c'est vrai.



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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
1953 - Iran Coup. The CIA and MI6 organise their first "regime change", a coup to overthrow Mohammad Mosaddegh after he nationalised the Iranian oil industry.


^
THIS.

All else aside is just normal for the cycle, but that right there is where it all started to go wrong, as soon as we started putting up puppet dickheads like the Shah - tell me we're not STILL suckin on blowback from that, right now, right here, today ?

And doomed to repeat the cycle, having learned nothing, as we install two MORE pricks of the same stripe who will either be cast down and replaced with someone who hates us, a'la Khomeni, or turn on us when we fuck em over one too many times, a'la Saddam.

Wanna make the world a better place and advance the cause of human freedom ?

Don't bomb the middle east, bomb langley.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 12:07 PM

BYTEMITE


I agree rampant imperialism is both the turning point when a nation becomes an empire, and also the start of the downslide of that civilization.

So, I might say the Industrial Revolution and the Treaty of Versailles. The Industrial Revolution because of the pollution and because that's when almost everyone became slaves, and the Treaty of Versailles as the political element, it led directly to all the conflicts and invasions around WW2, which in turn has led to all the conflicts of today.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 3:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
1953 - Iran Coup. The CIA and MI6 organise their first "regime change", a coup to overthrow Mohammad Mosaddegh after he nationalised the Iranian oil industry.


^
THIS.

All else aside is just normal for the cycle, but that right there is where it all started to go wrong, as soon as we started putting up puppet dickheads like the Shah - tell me we're not STILL suckin on blowback from that, right now, right here, today ?

And doomed to repeat the cycle, having learned nothing, as we install two MORE pricks of the same stripe who will either be cast down and replaced with someone who hates us, a'la Khomeni, or turn on us when we fuck em over one too many times, a'la Saddam.

Wanna make the world a better place and advance the cause of human freedom ?

Don't bomb the middle east, bomb langley.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



In fierce agreement.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 3:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I agree rampant imperialism is both the turning point when a nation becomes an empire, and also the start of the downslide of that civilization.

So, I might say the Industrial Revolution and the Treaty of Versailles. The Industrial Revolution because of the pollution and because that's when almost everyone became slaves, and the Treaty of Versailles as the political element, it led directly to all the conflicts and invasions around WW2, which in turn has led to all the conflicts of today.



Excellent additions, Byte

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 3:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"2000s – Good education skews to the rich. Health care skews to the rich. Inequity skews to the poor."

Hello,

Clearly, this is a timeline with a skewed point of view. The described condition deserves to be limited to no particular date.

--Anthony





Yeah, that one is a bit too fuzzy and soft

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 3:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Anthony's got it, so does CTS.

As for the pattern, it may be a semi-global one now, but the pattern of empires has pretty much been the same throughout history. What CTS said, c'est vrai.





So worth no comment then.


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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 3:19 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think I've been saying that since '05 here on the board, but alas...

I'm beginning to be worried about the Chinese agenda in Pakistan now, esp. after our recent fuckup and Zardari's ill health may boot us out of that country, a booting long overdue, but just keeping an eye on the next disaster, ie, that china wants to re-establish it's little peoples republic there to use as a puppet state to attack India.

Our hopeless war against Iran meanwhile, majorly about them being the only major industrial nation on earth to not sign on to the WTO, which would mean a victory would in theory lead them to world economic domination, except for the minor detail that Russia seems to be in the process of backing out, which kinda makes the whole thing pointless.


Byte,

I agree with those, though I think there are others: there was some massive slavery in the agrarian serfdom world, and also, the indutrial revolution and weapons, to add to that, but I have to add communism, the russian revolution, as leading to Mao's China in large part, and that in turn being responsible for a lot of our conflicts.

Essentially, though, yeah, nonsense of the 20th c. has been causing a lot of trouble for us now as a result of reasons completely irrelevant today, such as trying to stop the influence of austria in central and eastern europe.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, December 7, 2011 5:28 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

there was some massive slavery in the agrarian serfdom world


True, in the European nations it was really a lateral move between serfs working on rented land to wage slaves in Occupational Safety and Hazards Hell.

But in America I think that's accurate. Blacks were slaves before, and they became wage slaves after the civil war, and whites also became wage slaves.

I honestly think WW2 lead to the spread of stalinist communism (which is way screwed up), so I still trace that to the Treaty of Versailles. Russia did pull itself up a bit by the time of WW2, but I think they couldn't have become the superpower they did if Britain and France and Germany weren't also breaking each other. And Russia becoming a superpower led to the other revolutions.

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Thursday, December 8, 2011 3:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So worth no comment then.

What do you want us to say? America sucks? Yeah. It started sucking probably in the mid-fifties? Well, I would say the turning point is about around 1913, when the income tax and the Fed Reserve was introduced, but then we'd just bicker about that and lose the forest for the trees.

Western civilization has come to an end? Yeah.

I see civilizations going through cycles, like Sisyphus' rock. They rise, then they inevitably fall. Why do they fall? Well, the entire RWED is our arguments and debates about why they rise and why they fall. Your reasons are never going to be the same as mine.

I don't know what other comment you're looking for, except maybe people who agree with you.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 9, 2011 12:32 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Gad, you're touchy. Who said it was just about America anyway?


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Friday, December 9, 2011 12:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Here is a bit of the attached article.

I wondered whether people actually believed that western civilisation is on the decline, as the article claims, or whether we have always kind of bumbled along with highs and lows and wil continue to do so for another milleneum.

Quote:

The rise of porn,the neutering of democracy and the spread of junk culture. Can we just agree society peaked in the 60s?

It's mid-afternoon on a Monday. The waiter has just brought over a cheese platter and is tempting us with a list of liqueurs.

"You only live once," smiles Pria Viswalingam.

In a posh eatery in Sydney's CBD, the former SBS TV host is discussing his new film about the ills of modern life. Called Decadence: The Decline of the Western World, it explores the rise of porn, the demise of egalitarianism and the spread of junk culture. It examines the neutering of democracy and the unstoppable growth of mercantilism. It touches on the collapse of faith and the fracturing of families.

Then it weaves all those threads and more into one argument: that western civilisation peaked in the 1960s, and is now sliding into the abyss.

"This here is decadence," says Viswalingam, looking around at all the businessmen lingering over long, indulgent lunches.

After spending five years and visiting 10 countries to make his film, he pinpoints 1969 as the peak of western civilisation.

"The west as we know it today begins with the Magna Carta in 1215," says Viswalingam, who wrote, produced and appears in the documentary. "Then came the Renaissance, the Reformation, the founding of America and the Enlightenment, before the west peaked with the social revolutions of the 1960s.

"In 1969, the Russians and the Americans took us beyond our earthly bounds, the My Lai Massacre shattered the image of us as the good guys and then there was all the sheer exuberance and peace, love and rock and roll of Woodstock before the Rolling Stones 'end of the '60s' concert at Altamont. Decadence depicts the west's decline ever since."

Viswalingam is a former SBS TV presenter whose credits include Fork in the Road and Class. Having devoted a career to analysing culture and society, he says the symptoms of decay and decadence are unmistakeable.
Filmmaker Pria Viswalingam

Those symptoms include soaring suicide rates and the west's addiction to anti-depressants. They include rampant individualism, emptying churches and disintegrating families. And they include the west's obsessive devotion to money as the only true measure of worth. In the west today, humanities are maligned while MBAs are coveted.

"Treadmill consumption, growing income disparity, b-grade leadership, they're obvious signs of a culture adrift," he says.

Thing is, he's not alone. Another voice among the swelling chorus of cultural doomsayers belongs to author Alexander McCall Smith, who came to the Opera House in October to present a talk entitled Society is Broken

"People have been talking about the 'broken society' for some time now," Smith wrote in a complementary article. "[The British] riots demonstrated just how broken. The broken society is a consequence partly of social change and cultural change.

"The social change is familiar: the destruction of the family as the fundamental social unit would be fine if we had replaced it with something. We have not. [And] it’s a culture in which we seem to have abandoned many of the values on which we based our civilisation.

"We don’t know what we believe in and are busy bringing up children who share our confusion ... We have created a strange culture perpetuated by television and other media that rejoices in and celebrates dysfunction, violence and anti-social behaviour."

So pervasive is the sense of cultural bankruptcy that a new school of thought has emerged. Dubbed "declinology", it has seen the publication of books including Dambisa Moyo's How the West Was Lost, Walter Laqueur's Last Days of Europe and Bruce S. Thornton's Decline and Fall: Europe's Slow Motion Suicide.

"[In] France declinology has become a national art," wrote Madeleine Bunting in The Guardian in January. "While in Germany, declinology has assumed hysterical proportions."

Of course, the idea that civilisation is doomed is nothing new. Since the beginning of time, the end has been nigh. Declinology is merely the latest manifestation of humanity's insecurity about its imminent demise. Moreover, some declinologists have ulterior motives. They are peddling doom to push other ideologies.

"The really striking characteristic of declinology is how it is used to advance other agendas," wrote Bunting. "It is a way of injecting urgency, grabbing attention for another cause. And it can get very nasty ... Declinology in Germany and France has become toxically entangled with Islamophobia."

Viswalingam has no hidden agenda; he's simply fascinated by all the social changes underway. And not a little frightened.

He first broached the subject in Decadence: The Meaninglessness of Modern Life, a six-part TV series which aired on SBS in 2006. Since then, he says, the topic has become even more relevant and confronting. Tellingly, his film dovetails with the Occupy Wall Street protests.

"I heard an American professor saying that the Occupy protesters had achieved in a few weeks what non-protesting people have been trying to achieve for years," Viswalingam says. "They have expressed the view that young people are fed up with corporate greed creating serious divisions in society between rich and poor and that this has to be addressed. They have set the agenda and it is not going to go away."

Decadence aims to be the social equivalent of Al Gore's climate change documentary, An Inconvenient Truth. It aims to inspire change. One of the interviewees is philosopher Noam Chomsky.

"Eighty per cent of the population think that the country [the US] is run by a few big interests looking after themselves," says Chomsky in Decadence. "And we can't do anything about it."

Unsurprisingly, Viswalingam struggled to raise finance for a film that attacks the status quo. He finally found an unlikely ally in Oliver Yates, a Sydney merchant banker who contributed the bulk of the film's funds. Yates says the Occupy movement, the Eurozone protests and the British riots all reveal the grassroots disillusionment within western societies. His hope is that Decadence articulates some of the frustrations underpinning that disillusionment.

"I believe that the new generation is struggling with society as they see it today," Yates says. "They have a feeling that something is just not adding up but don't know what exactly it is and why. Decadence is about why disenchantment and social dislocation are bubbling over in the industrialised world."

Even more concerning is the thought that the problems addressed in the film aren't confined to the industrialised world. They extend far beyond the west, because the rest of the world is actively labouring to emulate the west.

"The rest of the world is aspiring to the west,’’ says Viswalingam. ‘‘We have a billion middle-class consumers coming online in China and India. Noone is going to stop them.

"Decadence is really an ode to the west. I mean, I love the hard-won western values of liberalism, law and freedoms that we now take for granted _ to live as I choose, to be able to sue a government and win, the weekend. But it’s also a call to arms because China is still ruled by big bad Animal Farm-types and India has got another 200 years before its 99 per cent comes anywhere near the notion of social equitability."

So, if the west is doomed, how long do we have?

"Every civilisation will fall," says Episcopalian bishop John Spong. "The question is when."

Jacinta Dunn, the film's co-writer, says the answer may be soon.

"Just before the fall of the Roman Empire, they were all feasting on lark's tongue and nightingale hearts," Dunn says. "They were obsessed with food. I don’t think George Calombaris will be dishing up lark’s tongue any time soon, but we are undoubtedly obsessed with food. Anyone for sea urchin on angel hair or flavoured foam? A sign of imminent decline? Maybe. I certainly think it’s decadent."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/society-is-past-its-use-
by-date-20111202-1oajg.html#ixzz1g4zGovfJ



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Friday, December 9, 2011 2:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Why fall back, why participate in the cycle ?
I am of the mind we should stand tall and stride forward, adapt, evolve...

Only, we're part of an established continuum specifically structured to PREVENT that, to maintain the status quo, designed by those who benefit from it at the expense of humanity in general.

And the method thereof is the psychological, social, and emotional mutilation of our young, crippling their potential in much the same fashion as one clips the wings off a bird so it cannot fly, with similar, tragic results - and then we crush them into twisted, darker, warped copies of ourselves.

I want our young to be better people, better humans, than we are - to have compassion, empathy, to communicate and cooperate - to do the things we do not because of the stupidest goddamn reasons.
And I TRUST them to work it out, better than I do us, anyways.

To that end is why I do a lotta what I do, you know...
None of ya ever wondered why I'll let someone so much younger than me call me up short on my own actions, why I listen to their advice - when most folk my age would find an affronted ego and at BEST ignore them if not act in malicious fashion ?
Because the ones I have helped, especially those not greatly harmed or deprived - ARE better people than me, and I goddamn well know it.

Mostly, we need to get the hell out of our own way, and continue to evolve instead of resting on our laurels - and I have held the FIRM believe that we, humans, are on the cusp of a mental-social evolution which is in fact overdue, since 1979.

And in regards to the cycles, remember this.

CRAZY EDDIE WINS.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 2:47 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I want our young to be better people, better humans, than we are - to have compassion, empathy, to communicate and cooperate - to do the things we do not because of the stupidest goddamn reasons.
And I TRUST them to work it out, better than I do us, anyways.




Me too, Frem. One of my pet peeves is 'anti bullying' campaigns run by the education department. I mean, honestly, how can kids NOT see us as hypocrits and fools when we preach to them about something that is so prevaent, more so a systemic feature of how we operate as a society. Always the blame on young people or their parents. I say, if we look to our children and young people, we see the raw truth of how we are as a society.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 3:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Indeed, it's only just NOW that folks like me are finally breaking the myth that such bullying STOPS at graduation, when it so clearly does not, and gets carried on, often generationally, within a community by those in power using their positions to screw over someone elses kids...

Which is what that whole Lower Merion thing was ABOUT to start with, privacy issues notwithstanding.

I ran across one of the most notorious school bullies from the very first grade school I went to, eighteen years later and he was STILL acting in the same fashion - I rather worked him over and went on my merry, not wise enough by them to realize how pointless that was, especially since I didn't bother with him knowing who or why.
*shrug*

My niece got detention for asking "isn't this what you do to us?!" when they handed out those stupid antibullying info sheets at her school - I sent her a gift card.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 3:32 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why fall back, why participate in the cycle ?
I am of the mind we should stand tall and stride forward, adapt, evolve...

Two steps forward, one step back?


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 9, 2011 3:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


When the end comes, it comes suddenly. There will be no bumbling along for another thousand years. The only bumbling will be in the minds of people who refuse to admit reality.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 4:08 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
When the end comes, it comes suddenly. There will be no bumbling along for another thousand years. The only bumbling will be in the minds of people who refuse to admit reality.



Hello,

I'm not sure that's true. Powerful Empires have been known to crumble over the span of generations, and then survive in smaller pieces for a time, with little dark ages and renaissances along the way.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, December 9, 2011 6:25 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Who said it was just about America anyway?

Nobody. You didn't say it. Neither did I.

I am sorry I didn't mean to sound touchy. But maybe I don't get the point of this thread. I think most everyone agrees that the sky is falling. What else is there to say?

It's not like we can stop it. Well, maybe Frem can, but not the rest of us. ;)

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 9, 2011 6:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I'm not sure that's true. Powerful Empires have been known to crumble over the span of generations, and then survive in smaller pieces for a time, with little dark ages and renaissances along the way.


Not that that's a good thing. The last claim to the Holy Roman Empire was Nazi Germany.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 6:42 PM

HKCAVALIER


I don't see Western Civ. ending. That's completely silly. Oh no! No more microwave popcorn!!! What I see is a world finally waking up to the life we've all been living for god knows how long. Social media and the internet are bringing all the lies and abuse out into the harsh light of twitter and nobody is gonna be able to stop it. Wikileaks is only a preview of coming attractions. Everybody knows everybody's business now. The entire world is becoming one big, cloying small town full of secrets nobody can keep. And all the former busy-bodies and know-it-alls are scared of losing their jobs. With good reason.

Money, aka debt, is the biggest lie of 'em all. Bunch of rat bastards rigged the game forever ago and now they can't even be bothered to play by their own rules. The screwing that the average joe is getting was set in motion with the invention of fiat money. Where else was that all supposed to end? Seriously. I think Frem said it best, "Give us all your money and something MAGICAL will happen!!!" Yeah, well.

I mean, fer cryin' out loud, according to this article, Western Civilization survived the Holocaust! The freakin' Holocaust! Are things really worse than Nazi Germany where you live?

I don't know what this is that gets well-heeled folk trottin' this one out every ten years or so? Mighty-whitey feeling self-conscious? Raw terror in the face of the seathing madness of humanity revealed on facebook and reality television? Guilt by free association?

As far as I can tell, the world is finally getting a good look at itself in the mirror and doesn't like what it sees. And yeah, a lot of pain and suffering is headed all our way until we learn to like ourselves. As a species.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 7:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Who said it was just about America anyway?

Nobody. You didn't say it. Neither did I.

I am sorry I didn't mean to sound touchy. But maybe I don't get the point of this thread. I think most everyone agrees that the sky is falling. What else is there to say?

It's not like we can stop it. Well, maybe Frem can, but not the rest of us. ;)

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)



Oh what is the point of any thread? Of anything?

Personally I thought the timeline was interesting as it marked a series of events categorising a rise and fall (according to the author). I thought it might generate some conversation re did people really think that western civilisation was falling? if yes, did the timeline accurately reflect the kind of decisions and events that precepitated that fall? were things missing that were relevant.? Did people think the whole idea of a western civilisation kind of hogwash, that it has been a series of empires. I enjoy thinking about history in such terms, I wondered if anyone else did.

I can't force anyone to be interested in any thread and I am not wanting to do that. There are a tonne here that I don't bother to comment on because I'm not that interested in internal US politics. I did find it a bit rude that a couple of posters made the 'civilisations fall, so what' kind of comments. As far I am concerned, if you're not interested in discussing, don't.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 8:25 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I thought it might generate some conversation re did people really think that western civilisation was falling? if yes, did the timeline accurately reflect the kind of decisions and events that precepitated that fall? were things missing that were relevant.? Did people think the whole idea of a western civilisation kind of hogwash, that it has been a series of empires.

Yes, it's falling. Yes, the timeline accurately reflected the fall. Nothing else was missing. Western Civ is not hogwash. When you agree with everything, there isn't much more you can say.

I feel like you are pressuring me to say more (by finding my short commentary "rude"), when I have nothing more to say about it.

Quote:

I did find it a bit rude that a couple of posters made the 'civilisations fall, so what' kind of comments.
Why is that rude? You were looking for reactions. That was our reaction. The reaction wasn't good enough for you (look who was touchy first). So I got touchy too.

I WAS interested in discussing. You found my discussion, or the brevity thereof, offensive. I'm defending my brevity.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, December 9, 2011 8:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA


CTS?

None of us, is as strong as ALL of us - I and those like me stop it... no.
ENOUGH of us, humanity in general, though, oh hell yes.
Our combined might and will can in fact accomplish... ANYTHING.

I'd just like some of that anything to have a positive impact for once, so a nudge here, a poke there...



HKCav ?

Not just information, but empathy.
Empathy on a grander, wider scale than previously known.



S'funny, I was sayin something like this back when I was a young teen - that whole epiphany thing and seeing "how things were gonna do" wasn't all dark, there's hope for us yet.
Of course, most folk though I was "Crazy Eddie" for THAT one, for a damn long time...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 9, 2011 9:29 PM

HKCAVALIER


Heya Frem,

I been thinking about this stuff (writing a book on the subject, so yeah, obsessing about it) and I've been thinking that with this crowd on RWED, a word like "empathy" kinda just sits there, gets ignored, or a polite nod, and then folk go back to trading in the scathing contempt they're accustomed to. Folk around here seem to think of "empathy" as the moral equivalent of a box of puppies. Cute and all, but in the big scheme o' things, irrelevant.

So, I've been thinking about talking about information and inevitability and "one world culture" and learning to like ourselves 'cause that seems to be closer to where the discourse around here is stuck. Interestingly, my shift in rhetoric has met with no greater success than the empathy/compassion talk, prolly less.

I mean your vid lays it all out. Aggression is a secondary drive, the primary drive is empathy. But how the heck you gonna get people to get it? Well, what I'm seeing happening around the world is people are getting it in spite of themselves. Science is finally asking the right questions. Circumstances are forcing connection on people. The culture and the tools of culture are in everybody's hands and they're changing us as a species. Empathy is happening spontaneously--as we always knew it would.

It's odd. Folk love to talk about how much every damn thing sucks, and how everything's goin' to hell, etc. Even folk who you'd think would be clapping their hands, "Good riddance!" And then somebody suggests that all this sucking may be for the best and maybe underneath all the suckatude there's some lovely truth to hold on to and things to look forward to because of it and no one pays any attention.

Funny.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But how the heck you gonna get people to get it?



Oh I don't expect them to, well not much anyways - you don't expect someone hamstrung on purpose as an infant to walk, do you ?
But perhaps by understanding its importance even in a distant way people can be taught it's not a flaw, not a weakness to be crushed out, but something to be cherished and nurtured in future generations.

Tis the hope of it, anyways.

Right now though, no one wants to face up to the sheer brokenness of things, getting past the denial is gonna take a while, but again, inevitable as day following dawn - my real concern is the true sociopaths in charge of things getting the chance to blow it all to hell on us before we manage to wrest it from their hands.

S'funny too - you're one of a very few people that really understands, comprehends, that despite me being a rough sort, violent in thought and action, even in my language often enough, that the primary drive inspiring that conduct is in fact compassion, that my intention is to crush the obstables to humanity finally achieving their potential.

But this was always coming, one way or another a system based on sociopathy is always doomed, human nature (which as I am fond of pointing out, and you know all too well is NOT the lie we've been told) itself defeats it just by EXISTING - and Nature always wins, eventually the mechanism to stifle peoples humanity starts to break down and fail, because it's RUN BY HUMANS, and even the worst of them have their small kindnesses, even in subconscious ways, that break the facade and expose the lie of it to those who've not managed to yet blind themselves.

Patience and Faith, old friend, patience and faith.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, December 10, 2011 1:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Ai ya. Do we really want a one world culture?

(I know, that was intentionally hypocritical. :) )

In any case, I'm not sure. Is empathy really about liking ourselves too?

Although I agree it's important. In some ways current generations are more tolerant of other races, creeds, and orientations. But in regards to empathy, current generations don't really connect with people around them, or try to help people, or get involved in their community.

Quote:

It's odd. Folk love to talk about how much every damn thing sucks, and how everything's goin' to hell, etc. Even folk who you'd think would be clapping their hands, "Good riddance!" And then somebody suggests that all this sucking may be for the best and maybe underneath all the suckatude there's some lovely truth to hold on to and things to look forward to because of it and no one pays any attention.


Definite agreement here. The only thing that concerns me is the potential suffering during the good riddance.

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Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:00 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
CTS?

None of us, is as strong as ALL of us - I and those like me stop it... no.
ENOUGH of us, humanity in general, though, oh hell yes.
Our combined might and will can in fact accomplish... ANYTHING.

You don't have to sell me on the power of our collective, or even individual, potential.

What I tend to doubt is getting ENOUGH of us together.

Yeah, I believe it's too late to save Western civilization. Consider that ship jumped as far as I am concerned. But I have great hopes for the fledgling, baby civs. I have hope that my kids could live in a better place, if only we can get "enough of us" together that would support innate and universal dignity.

For me, dignity is the social currency in any civ worth its salt. Not equality or empathy, though they are all good. Dignity.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:02 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
But in regards to empathy, current generations don't really connect with people around them, or try to help people, or get involved in their community.

Diffusion of responsibility. We need smaller communities.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, December 12, 2011 9:08 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Empathy is crucial, and easier to find in people who are focusing on their local area in my opinion. One world culture would totally suck brick. I can't agree with Cavellier in regards to happy fuzzy one world culture land, ain't happenin.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, May 8, 2022 4:44 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


The End of Civilization as We Know It
https://wallstreetrebel.com/wsr/articles/the_end_of_civilization_as_we
_know_it/2022-05-06-14-44-48.html

Douglas Murray's book reveals Western civilization's greatest enemy — itself
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/douglas-murray-war-on-the-west-book
'Collapse of Russia will result in fall of the West'
https://www.weeklyblitz.net/oped/collapse-of-russia-will-result-in-fal
l-of-the-west
/


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Tuesday, April 4, 2023 11:11 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


not truly over yet

I would argue Greece and Rome came before 'Magna Carta' while England today is islamo 1984

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Saturday, April 8, 2023 4:57 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


One way to reset the planet would be motehr nature, a big Rock from Space or a Super Volcano going Boom

Deadliest volcano in Western Hemisphere shows signs of increased activity
https://www.foxweather.com/extreme-weather/nevado-del-ruiz-volcano-eru
ption-colombia

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Tuesday, April 11, 2023 2:49 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Beyond the Reset like one of those Pirate News David Dees style photoshop animations




https://rumble.com/v2f8xmc-beyond-the-reset-animated-short-film.html

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Friday, March 8, 2024 7:58 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

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Saturday, April 13, 2024 1:06 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

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