REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Clean Air can Wait, says President

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Monday, September 5, 2011 16:25
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1461
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/02/news/economy/regulations/index.htm?iid
=HP_LN


Hello,

Sometimes I think I'd have more respect for this president if he just stuck to his guns on something. Even something I disagreed with, if it had perceivable value. It would be nice to see him passionate and dedicated to something. As things stand, there will be precious little changed in America when he leaves office. Improvements are hard to spot.

--Anthony





_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 3, 2011 5:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's a ruse, a scam a purely political game.

Nothing more.

save this, protect that.... the Left is obsessed with distraction, feel good politics.


Meanwhile, millions continue to look for a job...


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 3, 2011 7:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Your comments seem at odds with the content of the article. The president has decided to sacrifice breathable air in order to ease pressure on corporations and promote job growth. He has adopted the GOP philosophy about the environment.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 3, 2011 8:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I don't see the dichotomy you mentioned in the other thread. The NRDC and other pro-environment pro-health groups are against the roll back. The Chamber of Commerce and API are for maximum profit and pro-oil no matter what and are for the roll back. Political progressives like MoveOne are against it.

The only schizos are nutcases like Rap who are for it until Obama does it, and then they magically change and are against it.

So I'm not sure what your point is.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 1:42 AM

DREAMTROVE


Nonetheless, I think Auraptor is correct. Obama talks up a good game on what we *should* do, so that he looks like the good guy, and then he "caves" to supposed "political pressure" coming from his own fellow elites, people he was aligned with since long before he came to office.

Also, lets not forget he's not a man, he's a team, and the rest of that team definitely sucks, and he hand picked the rest of that team. If he didn't, and was "forced to pick them" then he's an absolute puppet.

If you want someone who will stick to those guns, you needs someone who actually had those guns to begin with, not someone who just said he had them.

It's one thing to say you'd do stuff like close gitmo when you're campaigning, but the guy had a record in the senate, and it was much closer to the guy who is now in office than his voters want to think.

Look at the article again:
Quote:

After weeks of Republican attacks on the Obama administration's tightening of environmental regulations, the president said Friday he would halt a planned increase in clean air standards.

In a statement released just hours after the U.S. Labor Department said the economy created no new jobs in August, Obama said he told Environmental Protection Agency head Lisa Jackson to withdraw the draft Ozone National Ambient Air Quality Standards.

While stressing his environmental record, Obama said he has "continued to underscore the importance of reducing regulatory burdens and regulatory uncertainty, particularly as our economy continues to recover."



See what they did there? The press is telling you

"Republicans attacked the president on the environment"

"The president asked that Lisa Jackson repeal a clean air standard"

"The president used jobs as a justification"

1 is coincidental with 2+3, it doesn't cause them

Republicans attacked because corporate donors told them to. Those donors also give to dems.

Then Obama made a request citing job numbers. It's looking an awful lot like he did it for the same reason republicans did, because corporations told him to, than that he did it because of pressure from republicans.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 5:59 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"It's looking an awful lot like he did it for the same reason republicans did, because corporations told him to, than that he did it because of pressure from republicans."

Hello,

Yes indeed. The GOP philosophy has always been to do whatever the corps want, damn the environment, because money speaks first.

However, they have the leisure of their position. They have never claimed to believe in severe ecological impacts or global threats from industrial byproducts. And if they do exist? Well, they are tiny compared to the threat posed by protective measures on our economy.

Meanwhile, the Democrats and Obama in particular have traditionally held the position that these ecological impacts exist and are of prime importance. So now to see a 'believer' say that the ecological impacts are less important than money is to see all past positions revealed as hypocrisy.

This is where I believe we have the duty to be most upset. Not at a governor in Texas who never claimed to believe in the problem. Rather, at a President who claimed to ardently believe in it, but who has now chosen money instead.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 7:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Obama talks up a good game on what we *should* do, so that he looks like the good guy"
"They have never claimed to believe in severe ecological impacts or global threats from industrial byproducts."

I'm not sure what we're addressing here. Are you talking about pollution in general or global warming?

Nixon, a republican, established the EPA due to grassroots pressure.

Since then, environmental protection has increasingly TENDED to run along party lines, with republicans having more of the ideologue science-deniers in their ranks, with democrats having more teetering on the fence of 'you can have both regulation AND a thriving economy'.

I don't think the democrat party has officially adopted environmental regulation as a plank in the platform that all must adhere to. And FOR SURE it doesn't have an official position on global warming. As for Obama, I think the most he has ever said about environmental protection is that we should do whatever we do 'responsibly', which seems like pretty weak-kneed support.

I don't know what his campaign position on offshore drilling was, I do know that he's been a consistent proponent of 'clean coal' (despite the fact that such a thing doesn't exist - ALL coal is of necessity dirty), and was pro-nuclear and continues to be so despite Fukushima.

Am I disappointed in Obama b/c of his long-standing lack of commitment to environmental protection? Of course I am. Am I MORE upset with Perry and (at this point) the entire republican party bc they want to flush to environment? HELL YES!

Obama is a corporate toady. The republicans are corporate jackboots. Who is worse?


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 7:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Screwed again.



On the other hand, it's no surprise, given the way President Woos has behaved and is behaving...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 10:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Obama is a corporate toady. The republicans are corporate jackboots. Who is worse?"

Hello,

In my own life, the friends who betray me are always worse than the enemies I can easily identify.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 1:29 PM

DREAMTROVE




Anthony,



Admittedly, that was a century ago or more.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 3:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Yes, Republicans and Democrats have dubious relation to their 19th century counterparts.

I don't think Roosevelt would think much of helicopter hunting. Though he might think helicopters themselves are terrific fun.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 4:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"In my own life, the friends who betray me are always worse than the enemies I can easily identify."

I can't speak for all democrats, but I never thought that Obama was my friend, or even an ally, or even more or less on 'my side'. I thought back then and still think now he was the lesser of two evils. Unlike many of the republicans here, I do not idolize or unquestioningly support those who want me to think they are on 'my side'. I don't feel betrayed, just frustrated that he is the best the democrats seem to be able to scrape up.



Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 5:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

For my own part, I consider various political groups to be my 'friends' for certain causes.

I enjoy protecting the environment and civil liberties, so I look to the Democratic party to be my 'friend' in that regard. They are also not supposed to be war hawks, so I look to my 'friends' to turn down the war machine. I have not been treated well by my friend this cycle.

The Democrats are also typically my 'enemy' when it comes to things like gun rights and taxes. They have been surprisingly dormant in this department.

The Republicans are my 'friends' on gun rights and taxes, but they are my 'enemies' when it comes to war and civil liberties.

It's very frustrating to me that I can't count on the behavior of either my friends or my enemies. It's like they've become a homogenous entity that speaks to contrary purposes but pretty much travels in the same direction.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 5:31 PM

DREAMTROVE


I suspect he would have, he was big into game hunting, and he and Mrs. Palin would have gotten along swimmingly.

There's not as much difference as people would like to think, and that includes this corruption, which is not altogether new.

What's new is the rapid slant towards globalism and corporatism. Not capitalism, that's old, but corporate-government fusion. It's been creeping up on us since WWII. (Earlier with the FED)

Still, the last green republican was Nixon. The last green democrat, I'm afraid, has never held office. Like the peace movement, the environmentalist movement has gotten into political races in the democratic party, but never really into office. Obama is definitely not an environmentalist.

ATM, it's the pro-industrialism that worries me the most, this exploitation with no quarter to the planet. If it's 20% cheaper to turn Alberta into hell on earth than to extract the oil with normal wells, then current powers say destroy it.

The GOP is more pro-industry, but it's not like the Dems aren't pro-industry. I hope that something can be saved here, but I'm not big on hope. If we wait and see, we'll all die, so we have to try to do something.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 7:10 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"he was big into game hunting, and he and Mrs. Palin would have gotten along swimmingly."

Hello,

Yes, but he saw hunting as something more profound than killing animals. The hunt was a spiritual experience for the man. I believe much of what we term 'hunting' now would leave him dissatisfied.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 4, 2011 7:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

For my own part, I consider various political groups to be my 'friends' for certain causes.

I enjoy protecting the environment and civil liberties, so I look to the Democratic party to be my 'friend' in that regard. They are also not supposed to be war hawks, so I look to my 'friends' to turn down the war machine. I have not been treated well by my friend this cycle.

The Democrats are also typically my 'enemy' when it comes to things like gun rights and taxes. They have been surprisingly dormant in this department.

The Republicans are my 'friends' on gun rights and taxes, but they are my 'enemies' when it comes to war and civil liberties.

It's very frustrating to me that I can't count on the behavior of either my friends or my enemies. It's like they've become a homogenous entity that speaks to contrary purposes but pretty much travels in the same direction.

--Anthony
_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

In all of my politically aware years, I don't think I've come across a political party that didn't require a lot of heavy lifting from the population.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki:
Quote:

I can't speak for all democrats, but I never thought that Obama was my friend, or even an ally, or even more or less on 'my side'. I thought back then and still think now he was the lesser of two evils. Unlike many of the republicans here, I do not idolize or unquestioningly support those who want me to think they are on 'my side'. I don't feel betrayed, just frustrated that he is the best the democrats seem to be able to scrape up.
Ditto. Long-held frustration, that. Everyone bitches about Obama, but how often does anyone consider what it would be like now if McCain/Palin had wone?

Sometimes lesser of two evils is a good reason to vote for someone. Not the best, but when do we ever get the best?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 8:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The last green democrat, I'm afraid, has never held office. ... but never really into office
Pure, unadulterated bullshit, DT: How about a President?? Try LBJ:
Quote:

President Johnson cared deeply about conservation and the environment and believed they were an important part of his dream of a "Great Society" for our country. He asked Congress to pass environmental legislation covering many areas of concern, including air and water pollution; the urban environment; waste disposal; the use of natural resources; and the preservation of wildlife, wilderness areas, natural beauty, and historical resources. While in office, President Johnson signed almost three hundred conservation and beautification measures. Lady Bird Johnson, as First Lady, made the public aware of environmental issues.

{A FEW of his contributions, none of which you think is important, obviously}

1963: Clean Air Act

1964: Pesticide Controls strengthened the federal law controlling pesticides; Water Resources Research Act; Wilderness Act; and several national parks and seashores.

1965: Federal Water Project Recreation Act; Land and Water Conservation Fund Act; Solid Waste Disposal Act; Water Quality Act; Water Resources Planning Ac; and more national recreation areas, national parks, national monuments to protect the land.

1966: Marine Resources and Engineering Development Act'; Fish and Wildlife Conservation Protection Act; Clean Water Restoration Act; Endangered Species Act; Point Reyes National Seashore (for which we here are MOST grateful), and more national recreation area, national seashores, etc.

1967: National Park Foundation; Public Land Law; Wetlands Preservation; Air Quality Act.

1968: Land and Water Conservation Fund; National Trails System; National Wild and Scenic Rivers System; National Wilderness Preservation System increased; Hazardous Radiation Protection; National Water Commission;, and still more land preserved as national recreation areas, seashores, etc. Details of all this at http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/lbjforkids/enviro_timeline.shtm

His (and yes, Congresses, since nothing happens without them) offerings that year included Redwood National Park, for which I and others are MOST grateful; a magnificent conservation effort in northern California which includes 27,500 acres of three state parks (on of which is where my park ranger friend was one of the first female state park rangers and worked for years, and which is absolutely gorgeous) and approximately 28,000 acres of privately owned land, much of which was owned by lumber companies. The area contains redwood trees up to 2,200 years old, including the two tallest trees in the world. One of the most beautiful is the Lady Bird Johnson Grove, which I always stopped at whenever I was up there and how I first found out about her and LBJ's commitment to the environment. I laud him for all he did--some of the most important legislation in the U.S. environmental protection--despite the fact I hated the man himself.

So there is one clear example of you not knowing what the hell you're talking about, and merely making a statement of your opinion which has nothing to do with fact.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 8:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to the Republican "god" Reagan, he was a liar, a bastard, totally pro-capitalism and an environmentalist in name only!
Quote:

{Reagan’s EPA director} was dismayed by Reagan’s cavalier dismissal of the importance of acid rain, which had destroyed fish and plant life in thousands of American and Canadian lakes and streams. . During the 1970s it had become an issue in Canada, which objected to the pollution originating in US smokestacks in the Midwest and deposited in Canadian forests and lakes. Reagan had promised Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau during a 1981 visit that he would honor the [agreement which Trudeau had negotiated with Pres. Carter, which required] vigorous enforcement of anti-pollution standards.

After three years of much talk and little action, the EPA wanted Reagan to make a major budget commitment to reducing the causes of acid rain. The EPA’s proposal was assailed as wasteful government spending by Reagan’s OMB and was rejected by Reagan, who questioned the scientific evidence on the causes of acid rain and was reluctant to impose additional restrictions on industry.

Reagan did not share fears that he would be damaged by environmental issues. He believed he brought a common sense view to environmental issues that was widely shared by Americans. He always considered himself an “environmentalist,” a word he defined so loosely that he applied the term to James Watt as well. Left to his own devices, Reagan rarely thought about the environment in political terms. http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Ronald_Reagan_Environment.htm] True, Reagan had a strong environmental record as governor, but one might surmise that it was strictly a political posture meant to appeal to his pro-environment constituency in California, given that the minute he stepped foot in the White House, his record on the environment took a dramatic turn for the worse. In fact, had Reagan and his cabinet members gotten their way, wildlands around the U.S. would have been turned into highways, or worse.

"The Reagan administration adopted an extraordinarily aggressive policy of issuing leases for oil, gas, and coal development on tens of millions of acres of national lands -- more than any other administration in history, including the current one," said the Wilderness Society's David Alberswerth.

Before delving further into Reagan's track record, it's worth recalling his infamous public statement that "trees cause more pollution than automobiles do," and that if "you've seen one tree you've seen them all." This is not, in other words, a president who demonstrated much ecological prowess.

Reagan's ignorance in this area is personified by James Watt and Anne Gorsuch, the leaders he selected to head the Department of Interior and the U.S. EPA, respectively. "Never has America seen two more intensely controversial and blatantly anti-environmental political appointees than Watt and Gorsuch," said Greg Wetstone, director of advocacy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, who served on the Hill during the Reagan era as chief environment council at the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

The list of rollbacks attempted by these administrators is as sweeping as those of the current administration {this was written during the Bush presidency}. Gorsuch tried to gut the Clean Air Act with proposals to weaken pollution standards "on everything from automobiles to furniture manufacturers -- efforts which took Congress two years to defeat," according to Clapp. Moves to weaken the Clean Water Act were equally aggressive, crescendoing in 1987 when Reagan vetoed a strong reauthorization of the act only to have his veto overwhelmingly overridden by Congress. Assaults on Superfund were so hideous that Rita Lavelle, director of the program, was thrown in jail for lying to Congress under oath about corruption in her agency division.

The gutting of funds for environmental protection was another part of Reagan's legacy. "EPA budget cuts during Reagan's first term were worse than they are today," said Frank O'Donnell, director of Clean Air Trust, who reported on environmental policy for The Washington Monthly during the Reagan era. "The administration tried to cut EPA funding by more than 25 percent in its first budget proposal," he said. And massive cuts to Carter-era renewable-energy programs "set solar back a decade," said Clapp.

Topping it all off were efforts to slash the EPA enforcement program: "The enforcement slowdown was staggering," said a staffer at the House Energy and Commerce Committee who helped investigate the Reagan administration's enforcement of environmental laws during the early '80s. "In the first year of the Reagan administration, there was a 79 percent decline in the number of enforcement cases filed from regional offices to EPA headquarters, and a 69 percent decline in the number of cases filed from the EPA to the Department of Justice."

Sound familiar? "There are plenty of similarities between the anti-government, anti-environment ideology of the Reagan administration and that of the current Bush administration," said Sylvia Lowrance, a former EPA employee who worked as an attorney at the agency under Reagan. "But one critical difference made it far more difficult for the Reagan administration to get away with their agenda: a Democratic majority in Congress. There were strong checks and balances that we don't see now."

During Reagan's first term, there was a Democratic House of Representatives and the Senate was controlled by moderate Republicans -- many of them relatively pro-environment, including Robert Stafford (Vt.), Bob Packwood (Ore.), and John Chafee (R.I.). Having control of the House enabled Democrats to hold numerous hearings and investigations into the administration's controversial initiatives, something they can't do now that they're in the minority in both houses of Congress.

But there was another, possibly even more powerful, difference between the anti-environmentalism of the Reagan era and the hostility we see today: Brutal honesty.

"James Watt had all the political skills and public relations sense of a boa constrictor," said Jim DiPeso, policy director at REP. "When Watt wanted to open up wilderness areas to mining and drilling regardless of the environmental consequences, he said just that. But at least he had the virtue of being a straight shooter."

Lowrance recalls sitting across the table from Gorsuch in a heated debate over environmental rollbacks. "We had it out," she told Muckraker. "Contrast that to today when the career people are completely shut out of the conversation. It was a much more honest debate then."

Watt's impolitic bluntness ultimately got the best of him. He made the most odious comment of his career in defense of his widely criticized decision to authorize the sale of more than 1 billion tons of coal from federal lands in Wyoming. He argued that he was immune to criticism because members of his coal-advisory panel included "a black ... a woman, two Jews, and a cripple." This comment got him fired in 1983, the same year that Gorsuch was forced to resign because documents exposed by Congress revealed major misconduct within her agency.

It's a sad state of affairs when this kind of contemptible candor is remembered fondly: "If only we could see the wolves beneath the sheeps' clothing today," said Daniel Weiss, a senior vice president at the environmental consulting firm M & R Strategic Services, who worked as an environmental lobbyist during the Reagan era. "Unfortunately, now our leaders are much more savvy -- and far more insidious. They undo laws in the dead of night. Gale Norton is nothing more than James Watt with a smile." "As bad as the Reagan administration was," adds Wetstone, "it looks positively quaint in comparison to what's happening today." http://www.grist.org/article/griscom-reagan don't give me bullshit about Ray-guns being a "green President". He was anything BUT. I lived through it; I was an environmentalist at the time; I REMEMBER. Boy, do I remember; Watt and Gorsuch in particular.

Reagan was a politician; as Governor, it benefitted him to pretend to be pro-enviornment; as President, he didn't give a shit, so his true colors came out.

I will, however, give you Nixon, who was an "environmentalist" , albeit for political purposes and not at first. Eventually, yes, he put political muscle into environment.
Quote:

Nixon started out opposing environmental laws, although he was elected to the White House at a time of increasing public support for environmental protection. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Americans began to express much more concern about the Earth as television showed them environmental catastrophes such as oil spills in the oceans, a polluted Ohio River on fire, and air pollution in Los Angeles. In 1969, the year Nixon took office, he opposed the legislation that became the National Environmental Policy Act. The law required environmental impact statements for projects proposed by federal agencies. When Congress voted to pass the act with bipartisan support despite Nixon’s opposition, the president realized something that the House and Senate had already learned: Protecting the environment was popular. Nixon signed the legislation in early 1970 and said it was the first symbolic act of what he was calling “the environmental decade.”

By the time Nixon resigned in 1974, his administration had had a hand in a stack of environmental laws, executive orders and international agreements that totaled “more than any other administration in history,” Talbot said. “We could never have done it had the president not been willing to go along,” Talbot said. http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/ag-forst/1998-December/012461.html;, yes, "eager", no...a lot of this stuff was passed more "in spite of" Nixon than with his blessing. He signed into law a number of things LBJ BEGAN, and he bowed to a lot of what Congress wanted (one case at least where Congress DID represent the will of the people).

In other words, Republican Presidents Bush and Reagan were definitively ANTI-environment; Nixon was brought to a pro-environment stance kicking and screaming, and for political reasons. LBJ actually follwed his HEART where the environment was concerned. I call that a true environmentalist.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 8:57 AM

DREAMTROVE


My God Reagan?!?

Um, you really haven't read a single whole post I've written, like, ever. That being the case, I see no reason to waste my time reading yours.

Frem went off on me once for saying the environment was cleaner under Reagan, but that was a reference to the passage of time* not praise of Reagan. You probably caught that because you were reading Frem's post, not mine.

* My point was that all interceding presidents had been hell on the environment since I was in college, and at the time, Reagan was president.

Additional irony: Obama praises Reagan to the sky; while those who defend Obama and Clinton would criticize Reagan for doing the same. He was bad, but it's just gotten worse.


Do us both a favor and ignore anything you see in green. I'll ignore anything I see in purple. I have no time for this anyway, and I certainly have no time to be lectured at, and if you're not reading what I write, just ranting at me, you're wasting both my time and yours.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 9:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I changed the text to "the Republicans god" before you even responded, then went on to other threads. I read EVERYTHING you wrote, as I usually do with you and everyone else (except PN and frequently Raptor). At first I thought you were talking about Reagan, then realized you were talking about Nixon after I'd addressed Reagan (that's my own mental error; I'm admittedly biased when it comes to Republican "environmentalists" and tend to think of Reagan when anyone mentions both words together)

No, I'll not ignore you or the things you claim. This is a perfect example of why. Like Mike, I will provide facts in response to ANYONE who makes false or questionable statements, lest people believe them. I can read and/or respond to whoever I choose, as can you.

Not going to address your remark there had never been a green President who got in office? Or that facts support that Nixon was only an "environmentalist" for political reasons, and started OUT very anti-environment? Those were the pertinent points, if you'd care to address them.

ETA: Lord, you get snarky:
Quote:

I have no time for this anyway, and I certainly have no time to be lectured at, and if you're not reading what I write, just ranting at me, you're wasting both my time and yours.
You keep saying you haven't got time, to cite facts you claim, to respond, to read other people's posts...why do you not have time for any of those, when you have time to post incredibly long LECTURES over and over again, complete with attacks and snarks? We all have our priorities, certainly, but it sounds as if you're saying "I have time to lecture you people, but I haven't time to pay attention to others or back up my claims". I hate to tell you, but you're not special and you don't have special perogatives the rest of us have; if you want to be part of the conversation, you have the same responsibilities as the rest of us, whether you care to acknowledge them or not.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Meanwhile, back to the subject at hand:
Quote:

POLLUTION knows no borders and neither does its health toll - a rationale that could make new US regulations financially sound.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced the cross-state air pollution rule last week. It regulates emissions of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides from power plants, which can travel hundreds of miles.

The Republican governor of Texas, Rick Perry, has called the EPA's decision "another example of heavy-handed and misguided action from Washington DC, that threatens Texas jobs and families and puts at risk the reliable and affordable electricity our state needs to succeed". He isn't alone in his opposition. New bits of kit like air scrubbers for power plants will cost $800 million per year.

But an EPA analysis says the rules will annually prevent 468,000 premature deaths, nonfatal heart attacks and cases of asthma and acute bronchitis - estimates which a spokesperson for the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told New Scientist were "based on sound science". Overall, the health gains should save $120 to $280 billion per year by 2014. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128213.500-us-pollution-rules-
could-save-280-billion-a-year.html
polution regulations that cold help bring down the deficit don't count, just like the 700 billion in revenue that raising taxes on the wealthy is a drop in the bucket, but half of everything the poor own in the world would hey, solve everything!

Wanna bet President Woos will get rid of THIS, too?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 11:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA



The word you are looking for, Anthony...

Is Perfidy.

There's a REASON I use that word to describe our current political cycle.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 5, 2011 4:25 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki,

Nixon was an environmentalist the same way he was a peacenik: He may have had all the wrong friends and intentions, but he was capable of listening. It's not a trait we've seen in presidents lately. My sincerest hope for Obama is that he will turn out to be Nixon, a flawed man capable of listening to the overwhelming opinion of the people.

So far, I think he's aiming for Reagan* and landing as Bush III.

* His words, not mine.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Russian War Crimes In Ukraine
Mon, April 29, 2024 00:01 - 16 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Sun, April 28, 2024 22:57 - 6325 posts
14 Tips To Reduce Tears and Remove Smells When Cutting Onions
Sun, April 28, 2024 22:22 - 10 posts
Another Putin Disaster
Sun, April 28, 2024 21:09 - 1514 posts
Elections; 2024
Sun, April 28, 2024 21:08 - 2315 posts
Russia, Jeff Sessions
Sun, April 28, 2024 21:07 - 128 posts
Scientific American Claims It Is "Misinformation" That There Are Just Two Sexes
Sun, April 28, 2024 21:06 - 25 posts
Dangerous Rhetoric coming from our so-called President
Sun, April 28, 2024 18:10 - 2 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Sun, April 28, 2024 18:06 - 294 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Sun, April 28, 2024 15:47 - 3576 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Sun, April 28, 2024 02:03 - 1016 posts
The Thread of Court Cases Trump Is Winning
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:37 - 20 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL