Dr. Jack Kevorkian dead at 83 by Hardware

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Dr. Jack Kevorkian dead at 83

POSTED BY: HARDWARE
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 16:14
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Friday, June 3, 2011 5:00 AM

Rest in peace Jack. You tried.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/03/report-dr-jack-kevorkian-dead/?hp
t=hp_t2

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Friday, June 3, 2011 12:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Oddly, he died in a hospital, and not hooked up to one of his own machines.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

He tried to save people a lot of suffering.

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
He tried to save people a lot of suffering.

Wasn't one of the drugs he used now banned for use on death row, because it was considered cruel ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:18 PM

KWICKO

I know one of the drugs they use on Death Row here in Texas was banned for use in putting dogs to sleep for that reason.

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:13 AM

HARDWARE

I've said for many years that we treat our animals more humanely at the end of their life than we treat our own family.

This hits home for me right now as I have a close friend who is moribund and in the hospital. His treatment borders on the inhumane.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Wasn't Kevorkian's first mercy kill in the back of some van?

Sympathies for your friend, Hardware.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 12:45 PM

KWICKO

Kevorkian probably should have tortured people to death. Then Rappy would love him and defend him!

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 6:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I've said for many years that we treat our animals more humanely at the end of their life than we treat our own family.

A-freakin-Men!

On that single point, 100% agreement from me - having watched such horrors one too many times myself.

Of course, my former EOD instructor went out the way he chose, he "hoped not to linger" cause he knew the job would eventually catch up with him, and some time ago while clearing a farmers field of unexploded ordinance (ours, not that it matters) it did so, in spades - they coulda buried what was left in a matchbox, which actually would have amused him greatly, going out with a bang, indeed.

-F

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Saturday, June 4, 2011 6:54 PM

DREAMTROVE

Just curious is all. I find myself either in complete agreement with Auraptor or somewhere to the right of him on this one. I say good riddance to bad rubbish... That anyone has a lick of sympathy for this psychopathic serial killer.

Kevorkian talked people into killing themselves, and if they disagreed, he killed them anyway. He wrote to colleagues that he was on a holy mission to clean up the gene pool and rid the world of useless people.

http://www.nndb.com/people/272/000023203/

As for pain, as I've said many times, life is pain. Pain is what tells us we're alive. And yes, I've known my share of pain and inhumane treatment.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:30 AM

HARDWARE

Just curious DT, you don't think you have the right to make critical decisions about the quality of your life?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:11 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Just curious DT, you don't think you have the right to make critical decisions about the quality of your life?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

It sounds like DT is toeing that old socialist line, doesn't it? If you don't have the right to your own life, and when, where, and how it ends, then who does? And what DO you have control over, if not your own fate?

This is where right-wingers trip and fall over themselves. These neo-Libertarians insist that we should all be free, even to make bad choices, but then turn around and try to outlaw any choices they disagree with. Abortion (on purely religious grounds, while screaming that Sharia law is going to take over the country and turn us into a theocracy), right-to-die issues, end of life, etc.

They want people to have the choices, not governments - unless it's the things they don't want people to be able to choose, of course. Then the government MUST step in and choose for you, or keep you from choosing. People should be responsible for their choices, we're told; so how many women do you know who DON'T take responsibility for having an abortion? And if you choose to take that choice away, shouldn't YOU be responsible for raising that unwanted child? After all, it was YOUR choice to have that baby, not the mother who wanted an abortion!

Wulfie insists that we all must have the RIGHT to own any kind of gun we want, without limit in any way at all. He also says that gives us the right to NOT own any guns at all.

So if I have the right to self-determination at the end of my life, how does that force any of YOU into a corner? I'm choosing for me, not for you.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 5:48 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Just curious DT, you don't think you have the right to make critical decisions about the quality of your life?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Hardware,

I do not believe we are in charge of our own judgment. The vast majority of people who attempt suicide never try again. It represented a momentary lapse in reason.

Consider some other examples: What if someone convinces you that signing a contract for, say, natural gas drilling, will give you a livable income and have no environmental or health impact; and then you later learn this isn't so? You could blame yourself for being a gullible fool, but we're all gullible some of the time. I've believed many things that weren't true because someone at some point gave me half of the story.

No one should have the power to make decisions for you. Everyone should, ideally, be able to be suspicious enough to not be talked into bad decisions, but if they need someone to make that decision easier for them, it's in no small part because their own subconscious is disagreeing with the decision.

Suicide is not a life choice, however, nor is it a quality of care. It's not a glorious new beginning, an end of pain, or anything worthy of any respect or admiration. It's the switch to non-existence. Suddenly everything you ever were or would become is erased from existence. I suspect that this happens principally from pressure from evil people who would like the lemmings* to kill themselves to make more room for the ruling class.

IOW, I would disagree with your premise even if I accepted it, which I do not.

*lemmings don't actually commit suicide, it's a hoax.

If you ask if someone should have the right to take pain killers, then I say yes, that's a choice I would disagree with, but it's a risk that is their right to take. Suicide is not a pain killer, it's a self deletion. I've known many suicides, most of them as the result of an undue amount of stress, coupled with easy access to methods of death. Others were the result of hallucinogenic drugs coupled with easy access to an easy death. So, sure, people should be allowed to take hallucinogenic drugs, but probably should not do so at the top of an 80' precipice. I suppose that could just be chalked up to an error in judgment. OTOH, if parents supply a child with an axe, a sword, a gun, a live grenade and a noose; then they should not be astonished if his response to being told that he is grounded for life and his vacations are canceled is to commit suicide. Also, who here would really like to be completely bound to decisions they made when they were 16?

People should have the right to change their minds, which Kevorkian did not let them do, but which, post-suicide, no one can do.

Oh, and for the record, I have no respect for cowards. If someone's reaction to an illness is to off themselves, they're a coward. If you see no cure in sight, get thee to a computer and find one. Don't know the science? Learn. If you sit around and wait to die, no one can save you. If you fight, you can still lose, but if you don't fight, I don't see why you deserve not to.

The first step towards any real freedom is to get ourselves away from this "expert" culture, that tells us that other people have the right to make decisions for us. If people are out, on their own, and self dependent, with no outside manipulating pressures pushing them to off themselves, and they still off themselves, then fine. I'm not going to have any respect for them, but I'm not going feel that it's my place to stop them. The reality is that this is not the situation we are talking about.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:02 AM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

Abortion is not a libertarian choice. Neither is death. Neither is murder. Jack Kevorkian was a murderer, plain and simple.

I can go on with a long list of things that are not libertarian choices. You cannot cut down redwood trees. They don't belong to you. It's not your life. Anything that adversely affects something outside your life is not a libertarian choice. Libertarian means you have liberty, ergo, the right to swing your fists ends where my nose beings.

The suicide argument is moronic, though: All humans are subject to momentary lapses of reason. This is one of the reasons I oppose guns. I don't think that anyone should have the right or power to kill themselves or someone else due to a ten second glitch in their thought process.

You believe in the libertarian right to take drugs, right?

Now, say someone takes a mind altering drug. Reason shuts down. During this time, say they kill a dozen school children. After that time passes, they no longer think that was a good idea, so we're all good on that, and we can go on?

Here's a real world example told to me by a drug addict.

"They always offer you free samples, not for the same reason the cheese lady at the supermarket does, to test the product, but because they know the free samples will affect your judgment. Then they will come back and make the most unreasonable suggestions to you, and they will sound good. Suddenly you're trading your life possessions to get another hit, or watch some girl strip, and after you've done two or three hits, you think you're on mars. You wake up the next morning naked in an alley handcuffed to a dumpster thanking God that you are still alive."

So, no, people are not always rational actors, and any extreme consequences should be taken into account, whether they affect themselves, or others. I spent a lot of time in looney bins in part because I wasn't a sound maker of judgments. The question they always ask over and over again is if you are a danger to yourself and to others. This is a good starting point. After that, you are asked if your of sound mind, and capable of making rational choices. Then you are released into the world where the only rule that you are supposed to need to obey is that your right to swing your fists ends where my nose begins. If you can get through all of that, you're having a pretty good day.

If you can't, I can guarantee you that future you wants to hop into a time machine and come kick present you's ass. I know this because I have the feeling a lot. Overall, today is a pretty good day. I have much more serious things to worry about than whether or not to kill myself, and anyone wondering this is pretty pathetically self-absorbed and should go out their front door, meet some people with some real problems, and try to help those people if they can't help themselves. I don't care if they're dying, we're all dying, it's part of the human condition.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:37 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Abortion is not a libertarian choice. Neither is death.

You say such things are NOT libertarian choices - yet you'd gladly make them so BY CHOOSING TO TAKE THEM AWAY FROM OTHERS.

Do you have the right - the LIBERTY - to swing your fists where your own nose begins? If not, you don't have the right to your own hands, or your own nose, do you?

You're essentially using the big-government argument to argue in favor of not letting people take responsibility for themselves. Conservatives are supposed to believe that most people, given the choice, will choose wisely and well; some will make poor choices, but you can't control everything, right?

So yes, some people will choose suicide, and some will probably do so in error. Maybe people seeking end-of-life options should have a waiting period and a background check...

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 6:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I do not believe we are in charge of our own judgment.

Hey, fuck you, okay ?

I've *seen* folk who's existence was so painful, so miserable, that living amounted to pure torture - not just physically, either, but folk who were so destroyed by their own mistreatment and inability to cope that the only option to prevent them from offing themselves was locking them up in a rubber room, despite the acknowledgement and realization that THEY"RE NEVER GOING TO GET BETTER.

What is Life, if it lacks any quality which makes it worth having ?

Would you then, have sided with the doctors who kept my friends father hanging on, day after day, screaming his throat raw in pure mortal agony as the cancer ate him from the inside out, begging to be allowed to die ?

As for your asinine argument that self-elimination is cowardice, allow me to point out one of the alternatives is the elimination of all who have wronged/abused one, and their enablers - something every goddam bit as horrific, which does happen in our society on occasion.
How is this better ?

Also, remember how much pain I live with on a daily fucking basis - right now I can barely even friggin type, going back to work after all that mess has done me no favors, my leg is bleeding quite a bit, feels like someones pounding it with a hammer, my spine feels like someone is sticking needles in it, my right hand is still having nerve issues and I have a screaming migraine that just wont quit, and this is an ongoing, on-and-off, having a bad day kinda thing, being curled up in a wheelchair in a quivering ball of misery, completely crippled by pain alone in a society which has all but criminalized proper pain control - and this despite a damn high tolerance for it.

You really think, when that bad day becomes EVERY day, that I am going to WANT to live ?
For Kalis sake, WHY?!

If you wish to reduce the amount of folks offing themselves, priority A-number-fucking-one, get the goddamn DEA off the back of those who would provide pain control for those who desperately need it, that in and of itself is a primary REASON ole Jack never lacked for customers bubba - and they KNEW damn well what they were buying into when they called him, how could they not ?

Ergo, I reject your arguments, and for a fact, reading that LAST post, I firmly believe you've gone off the deep end, since you would apparently be quite willing to lock us all up in rubber rooms to "protect" us from ourselves, an insane argument if I ever heard one.

You CAN'T protect people from themselves, and you shouldn't oughta try!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 1:38 PM

HARDWARE

Self determination is the basic freedom that comes before all others.

I've already left medical directives that if I am on life support and unresponsive I should be given 72 hours and then the machines should be disconnected. If I am without medical hope of recovery from an illness a DNR order takes effect. I've also designated a medical guardian if I am incapable of making or voicing my determination. As well as a successor should my designated medical guardian pass before me.

I've seen the living hell people with incurable illnesses go through at the hands of the medical profession. I don't want to go through that without need. Quantity of life does not equal quality of life.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 4:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think Jack K was a hideous person and he probably really enjoyed killing folk, I mean, he made a video for goodness sake, ew. That being said I do believe that in certain situations, like if you have a month to live and are in agony of pain then you should be able to be given something to put an end to it. In OR terminally ill patients who have a short amount of time left and are in lots of pain can ask for something to take and they are given it to take if they wish. They do it at home at a time of their own choosing, they are only given it if they are lucid and cogent and can knowingly make that choice for themselves. I believe that this is okay under such circumstances. Is it something I'd choose? I don't think so, but I've never been there. Only a small number of folk choose this each year here, its rare but it is legal under specific circumstances and that is okay with me. But getting whacked by Jack? Icky and just not cool. But he was probably persuasive and convinced them to go for it. I don't like him.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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