One for Mikey by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

One for Mikey

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Monday, January 3, 2011 07:58
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VIEWED: 1143
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Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:04 PM

Thinking Doggie-Style
Has our long shared history with dogs shaped their brains - and ours?
http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/science/4783/thinking_doggiest
yle.html

Quote:
A common – if unlikely – claim made by dog owners is: “He understands every word you say.” But scientists are increasingly finding that it might be truer than you think. The evidence suggests that the two species have moulded each other over a long period of co-evolution, and have developed sophisticated communications in the process.

Of course, your cat understands you too, they just don't give a crap about your opinion, mostly.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:26 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Make's sense, dogs did not evolve from natural selection as other animals. They were the first domesticated animals, humans would feed scraps to the er... nicer or puppy-esque (for lack of a better word) wolves, who would in turn defend the humans from other animals to protect their source of food. Over time this basically bred wolves into dogs by artificial selection.

Could be they aren't understanding out words as much as our scents or emotions or something. It's very interesting stuff.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 9:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Doesn't mean it's not natural selection, just that we evolved along side of one another to suit each others survival needs.

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Friday, December 31, 2010 4:12 PM

DREAMTROVE

Humans have had dogs for c. 150,000 years or so, and have only been what we would call human for about 1/3 of that, so there is bound to be some truth to that.

The Dog cult in Egypt is descended from the story of Anubis and the all seeing eye. He tells us in his elegy to his greyhound that it was actually his dog, and not the eye of Horus, which enabled him to detect intruders in the dark, even while he slept, which enabled him to unite the kingdom of Egypt. We know this story because King Tut had a greyhound which pre-deceased him, and he made a replica of Anubis' dog's sarcophagus, because Tutankhamen actually knew the location of Anubis' tomb, which we do not. The tomb contains Tut's own elegy, but because it is a replica, it also contains Anubis' which is actually quite a humour read.

The myth of the eye persists, and is the eye of the illumaniti, but I digress. My main point was that the cult of Cat ownership and worship hinged on magical properties given to cats by the priestesses of Bastet, some of which caught the attention of Oscar Wilde, but this was really just to give them something to combat the Dog-people dominated Egypt.

The history of Egypt can really be seen as Dog People vs. Cat People, but it also dates cat ownership to about 7,000 years or so.

The truth is, cats, which are roughly as intelligent as dogs, cannot hear you, they possess neither the language center in the brain nor the proper hearing range to be able to discern human speech.

Damn copyright laws. I wanted to post that clip where Aang is trying to explain to Momo that he needs the leechy nuts or whatever it is, frozen slugs, something with water, all seen from a Momo eye view.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 3:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The truth is, cats, which are roughly as intelligent as dogs, cannot hear you, they possess neither the language center in the brain nor the proper hearing range to be able to discern human speech.

I call bullshit here.

A cat DOES understand you, in fact they can know the concept and generally expressed meaning of up to 70-110 human words, depending on the cat in question, and by that I mean "know" in that they can associate the physical sound with what your intentions are, which doesn't require anything but observation and response.

Also, they're quite capable, siamese especially are notorious for this, of altering their own cries to more closely mimic a human infant in order to pull all those caregiver triggers and get you to obey their will, and they do that *on purpose*, but here's the thing...

You can NOT apply human standards of intelligence to a dog or cat, they're NOT furry little humans, and anthropomorphicising is doing them a disservice - besides which, your average dog or cat ranks only a grade or two behind primates in intelligence, it's just that they are...

A- More instinct-driven.
B- NOT a primate.
C- As a general rule, not a tool using creature.

Therefore most "measures" of their "intelligence" by the standard of a human, or a primate, or a tool user, are a bloody waste of time, a cat or a dog isn't going to use tools, they DO NOT THINK THAT WAY - but you know, they seem to be aware YOU can, and so you *become* their tool, and the ability to manipulate a human into acting to fulfill their desires could conceivably be a better measure.

Even so, there's also that they are unique creatures, with a very wide range of intelligence of ANY kind even within their own species and breed, Ghoster for example is a complete dunce in both feline and primate-type intelligence, Kallista is genius in feline terms, and damn smart in primate-type thinking, and Puppy is very bright in feline intelligence, but near completely dense in primate-type intellgence.

It goes a bit the other way too, as I have studied feline vocalization off and on for near three decades, and can generally get meaning across to even a stranger cat that way (again, unique individuals) at least on basic concepts, stuff like "this is mine", "danger, flee", "I am in distress", "Hey check this out", "Yo, wazzup?" and so forth and so on, and although not having a tail does hinder non-verbal signals I can throw a few of those too.

So it's not a matter of inability to communicate, much as whether your attempts TO communicate even matter to them, and so long as their instinctive reflex-needs are being met (and they will be quick to inform you if they are not!) whether they wish to consider even bothering to listen to you is more a matter of whim and how much of their mind at the moment isn't devoted to cat-stuff than anything else - a cat has different "needs" on a social-emotional level than a dog does, and expresses them completely differently... well, in MOST cases, Puppy is named so for a good reason, but just because a cat doesn't *react* like a primate to primate type communication, doesn't mean they do not hear or understand you - hell, they don't even use eye contact in the fashion we do, so how you gonna know, unless you know feline behavior intimately ?

Oh, and those were frozen toads, I do recall the scene and it struck me as odd because any critter of any intelligence that hangs around humans at ALL, is going to know a handful of words and have concepts linked to them by observation-response-memory, especially one of primate level intelligence - but of course Aang wasn't even trying well to format his vocalization in any fashion useful to Momo, either, prolly cause he was trying to introduce a NEW concept with nothing TO observe and respond to...
A much funnier scene is actually later when Aang is hallucinating and Momo starts "talking" to him, actually.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:12 AM

DREAMTROVE

frem

three things

1. dog are pack hunters. ergo they have evolved to communicate with one another. vocally. that, and sheer size. makes the more able to understand us. a mouse or beetle can understand nonverbal signs.

2. a cat person vs dog person argument is worse than a democrat vs republican one.

3. any scene with momo rules. i like.momos dream and also the scene in the library. Momo suceeds where and endless number of spielberg have failed, and disney creations to a lesser degree. I think the reason is that momo isnt *trying* to be cute, 90% of the time hes just being momo with little or no interaction to the others. he usually becomes part of the scene when the story demands it. By contrast the typical cute critter character is wedging their nose into the story when.they have no business being there, and the result is that we the audience get annoyed.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ayep, well aware, dogs have a pack mentality while cats are social solitares, it's a whole different manner of thinking, a whole different set of emotional and other cues - they're very different creatures, so it's apples to oranges there.

Problem is most folk don't really understand cats, their needs and instincts, what motivates and drives them - but fact is most folk don't really understand dogs either, it's just that a dog is more tolerant in that way, more willing and more able to adapt their behavior, whereas a cats hardwired instincts are a much greater driving force in it's life.

And yes, the whole cat vs dog "argument" is for the most part stupid, it's just that I get annoyed when folk try to hold canine or feline behavior to a primate-standard and judge it accordingly, cause they're not primates, nor tool users, it'd be like calling dolphins stupid because they don't build houses, yes ?

Actually I didn't really take a lot of notice of momo, although I was gratified that they used a more accurate behavior-model for appa...

It was Sokka that impressed me, fate *really* screws with him, and while he bitches about it he does take it in stride and hands it right back now and then, but I am perhaps a little biased in that his character showcases a lot of third-way-thinking, something that swordmaster not only recognized, but seemed to value as or more greatly than conventional skill - that and the character is well written within the story.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Everything Frem said. I think it's quite possible dogs "understand" voca tones, emotional scents and body and facial language far more than words. Sure, they have a "vocabulary", and sometimes are so good at it that they know what you're saying, no matter how you disguize "dinner" or even spell it. But I think the nose is FAR more important in their discening things, and given they descended from wolves and wolves "read" body language in the pack, I don't see that trait as disappearing evoluntionarily, but rather being as useful in discerning humans.

Yes to cats. Their mentality is more foreign to us, whereas most people gravitate toward the dog, which is worshipful, obedient, and social, so thinks more like we do.

Old joke:

Call a dog, he will come to you.
Call a cat, he will take a message and get back to you.

Cats definitel understand the same things, they just react to them differently. I imagine cats have a smaller "vocabulary" because we aren't the center of their worlds, they'd put less effort into understanding us. But that cats don't hear or understand, I reject.

I think both are fantastic in their own ways, even tho' I'm "more" a dog than a cat person. Actually, I've never quite grasped how anyone can be exclusively a cat or dog person; but then I find almost all animals fascinating and neat.

ETA: Thanx DT, I learned a lot from what you posted; that was neat!

And: what's a momo?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, January 1, 2011 12:27 PM

DREAMTROVE

It's just an excellent and well constructed story. There are flaws, but hey, what doesn't? Appa I'm willing to give a slide because outside of his feral degenerative state, he pretty much acts as an extension of Aang's will, which I figure is not entirely natural. He's a familiar, we're shown the whole familiar impression ceremony which seems eerily reminiscent of Anne McCaffrey, but also, he's got the big avatar arrow on his head constantly reminding us that he is not in fact an independent agent.

I am particularly fond of the villains, with the exception of Luke Skywalker who falls a little flat, though he is a useful plot device as the unshakeably one dimensional character. But what impressed me the most was that, as the show introduces us, however briefly, to every form of eastern philosophy, it's really the villains who use it to their advantage. This is so much a problem for the writers that in order for the heroes to be victorious, they actually have to cheat a little.

As for dogs and cats, yes, true, and dogs adapt to humans so humans don't have to. They perform equally well on animal intelligence tests on average, but the standard deviation is different:

On generic problem solving tests, both dogs and cats average about 50% of human capacity, but cats tend to range from around 40%-60% depending on the cat, but dogs range from 2% on the low end to around 85% on the high end. So, the smartest pet is most likely a dog, but so is the dumbest and the dumbest dog is significantly dumber than a caterpillar or cow, and only marginally smarter than an earthworm.

It does make me wonder though, what an awesome pet a functional pack of intelligent dogs would be.

When I was a kid we had a very intelligent dog who ran in front of a car to save my cousin's life. He didn't die from it, but it was a heroic rescue. The kid, OTOH, later committed suicide. I'm not sure what that says.

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:21 AM

DREAMTROVE

when you think about it Sokka is in almost the identical situation to Xander, he even gets his own zeppo episode.

zepisode?

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Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:31 AM

DREAMTROVE

Niki

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Monday, January 3, 2011 6:16 AM

KANEMAN

Cats are fucking stupid. Especially compared to dogs. Not even close....all the dogs I've ever had were smart, my cats....not so much.....cats are forr old lesbos and crazy whores....dogs protect and serve do work and shit outside...smelly little cat people...go clean that smelly litter box you filthy bitches....your house stinks....well, its true.....

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Monday, January 3, 2011 7:58 AM

DREAMTROVE

Kane,

Thanks for letting us in on where you're coming from. Don't worry...

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