No righties, not Obama, [u]YOUR[/u] messiah: Reagan.[quote][u]Two bills passed in 1982 and 1984 together constituted the biggest tax increase ever enacte..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Your messiah raised taxes

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 08:20
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Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No righties, not Obama, YOUR messiah: Reagan.
Quote:

Two bills passed in 1982 and 1984 together constituted the biggest tax increase ever enacted during peacetime.

There were other notable tax increases under Reagan.

In 1983, for example, he signed off on Social Security reform legislation that, among other things, accelerated an increase in the payroll tax rate and required the self-employed to pay the full payroll tax rate, rather than just the portion normally paid by employees.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/economy/reagan_years_taxes/index.
htm


He even raised taxes on your beloved "rich":
Quote:

The bills didn't raise more revenue by hiking individual income tax rates though. Instead they did it largely through making it tougher to evade taxes, and through "base broadening" -- that is, reducing various federal tax breaks and closing tax loopholes.

For instance, more asset sales became taxable and tax-advantaged contributions and benefits under pension plans were further limited.



Just to say...




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:51 AM

WHOZIT


It was the rapist Clinton who gave us the biggest tax increse in the history of the world.

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Niki.

You disconnect w/ reality is well established.

There's no need to further demonstrate to us.

Whozie - Clinton is a rapist, not a rappist.

Good grief.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That you righties hold up Reagan as a model of fiscal responsibility was shown to be false; you've done nothing to refute that, just thrown snarks. Unrelated to the subject.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:26 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Niki.

You disconnect w/ reality is well established.

There's no need to further demonstrate to us.

Whozie - Clinton is a rapist, not a rappist.

Good grief.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "





Not so fast....


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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:That you righties hold up Reagan as a model of fiscal responsibility was shown to be false; you've done nothing to refute that, just thrown snarks. Unrelated to the subject.



That Reagan lowered taxes and that's what gave us the great economy in the 80's is well established. I'm not playing your silly game, of rehashing this pointless NON issue.

Seriously, you must be suffering from cabin fever or some sort of dementia, or bored beyond belief.

Frankly, I don't care.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Clinton taxes (NOT the biggest in history) added 22 million jobs. Bush CUT taxes on the rich and we LOST JOBS. Bob Dole is responsible for the biggest tax increase in history: a massive tax bill he engineered as Senate Finance Committee chairman in 1982.



Inflation between 1982 and 1993, as measured by the GDP deflator, eroded the value of the dollar by almost a third. Measured in 1982 dollars, Clinton's tax increase would be worth only about $165 billion--$70 billion less than Dole's.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 19, 2010 10:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Clinton's tax increases didn't create 22 million jobs, dear.

It may have inflated the size of Gov't, and gave some unions a boost, but sure as hell not to the tune of 22 MILLION jobs.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Reagan did lower some taxes. He also raised taxes, and that was the statement. Reagan was certainly a tax cutter legislatively, emotionally and ideologically. But for a variety of political reasons, it's impossible to ignore the cost of his tax cuts.

Two bills passed in 1982 and 1984 together constituted the biggest tax increase ever enacted during peacetime. Fact.

And no, trickle-down is not "well established", nor is the idea that Reagan's tax cuts gave us the great economy of the 1980s. If you're theorizing that Reagan's tax cuts didn't have effect until after his term, then you're forced to admit Bush's tax cuts were responsible for the incredible deficit and horrible economic crisis of Obama's term. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That trickle-down didn't work is something we've already discussed and disproven. I'm not rehashing it all over again.
Quote:

"We saw jobs created, 22 million in the Clinton years," said Brown, a Democrat who’s not up for reelection until 2012. "Because they were responsible about cutting taxes selectively and increasing taxes selectively and they were responsible about what government programs they formed and they dismantled. Twenty-two million jobs created and incomes went up in those eight years for the average American. And in the next eight years, the eight Bush years, only 3 million jobs created and that wasn`t even enough to keep up with population growth."

The quantitative claims seemed worth checking out, and in doing so we found a surprise: Brown is wrong – but not in a way he’ll likely mind. No fan of President George W. Bush, Brown grossly understated the poor job growth that occurred on Bush’s watch.

The comparison should have been this: Job growth through Clinton two terms was 22.7 million. Through Bush’s two terms, it was 1.1 million.

Brown isn’t alone in making this error. The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee used the 3 million figure in a news release on July 20 when trying to use Bush’s record on jobs as a weapon against one of his former top aides, Rob Portman. Portman is the Republican in the U.S. Senate race to succeed George Voinovich, who is retiring.

Brown’s office wasn’t sure where the senator got his figures, but we did some tracing and concluded it probably came from a Wall Street Journal online story of Jan. 9, 2009. That’s where the Democratic committee says it got its numbers, too. The Wall Street Journal examined net job growth for more than half a century and declared that Bush had the "worst track record on record."

That doesn’t mean it’s the worst ever. It’s just the worst since the Labor Department started keeping payroll records in 1939. Said the Journal:

"The Bush administration created about three million jobs (net) over its eight years, a fraction of the 23 million jobs created under President Bill Clinton’s administration and only slightly better than President George H.W. Bush did in his four years in office."

We wanted to look at those numbers ourselves, so we turned to the Department of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics, or BLS. Getting guidance on the data from BLS and using Excel spreadsheets, we discovered not only that Brown and the Democrats have been wrong, but also why.

It was a matter of timing.

BLS had only preliminary data on Bush’s final performance at the close of his second term, when the Wall Street Journal was doing its story. BLS subsequently updated the data. It turned out that things were way worse than the preliminary numbers showed.

We shared this assessment with the Journal reporter, who agreed. It’s not a matter of whose numbers were better. It’s a matter of what was known and when.

You, too, can do the math. The jobs numbers are based on a monthly survey of employers for the 12th of each month, but the initial reports are revised as more employers complete their survey over the following couple of months. A fuller census of employment and wages is conducted quarterly and is considered more accurate, so BLS eventually adjusts the monthly numbers to reflect that accuracy. Here are the latest numbers:

Number of jobs as of January, 1993, a week before Clinton took office: 109.725 million.
Number of jobs as of Jan. 2001, a week before Clinton left office: 132.469 million
Net Gain under Clinton: 22.7 million jobs.

Now for Bush, who succeeded Clinton in the White House. As already noted, the nation had 132.469 million jobs as he was taking office.

Number of jobs on Jan. 12, 2009, a week before Bush left office: 133.549 million.
Net gain under Bush: 1.08 million jobs.

OK, but what about Brown’s claim that incomes went up under Clinton?

The numbers bear this out, too. BLS data, adjusted for inflation, show that average weekly wages grew by 21 percent from the start of Clinton’s first term to the end of his second term. They grew by only 2 percent under Bush’s two terms.

http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2010/jul/25/sherrod-brown/sh
errod-brown-touts-job-grown-during-clinton-presi
/

You don't like Politifact? There are others, many of them:

http://community.history.com/reply/213637/t/Number--jobs-created-Clint
on-years-1991--2000-22-7-million.html



http://www.techsupportforum.com/relaxation-room/political-scene/305178
-bush-created-4-8-million-jobs-clinton-created-23-million.html
Quote:

Reagan slashed taxes, job growth was stagnant. Things picked up after he was forced to raise taxes a bit higher. Since then, there's been job growth after income tax rate increases.

Clinton raised taxes, the economy created 22 million jobs. Bush cut taxes, net job growth was flat.

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dek8h/clinton_raised_taxes_t
he_economy_created_22
/

I'm offering facts, quotes and cites; refuting them with unproven flat statements has no validity.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, December 19, 2010 11:23 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


My Messiah said something to the tune of "give Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's." I rather like God's version, he's only asking for 10% but I understand I have a responsibility to pay taxes to support GM and larger government while everyone complains about the public education that's barely getting any funding, but I digress...

And for all those nutjobs thinkin' Obama is the antichrist, I do believe the antichrist would feel insulted.

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 12:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki, your simplistic view that tax cuts and increases are the sole factors in what drives or stalls an economy is laughable.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 19, 2010 1:02 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Niki.

You disconnect w/ reality is well established.

There's no need to further demonstrate to us.

Whozie - Clinton is a rapist, not a rappist.

Good grief.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Fixed it thanks. I put fresh batterys into my "Speak and Spell".

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Tuesday, December 21, 2010 8:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

everyone complains about the public education that's barely getting any funding
I don’t think even HALF the citizenry complains about that. The rich complain about being overtaxed, many complain that our taxes go too much to things (like the military and its wars) of which we don't approve, and many of the rest complain about being taxed AT ALL, from what I see here and what I hear/read elsewhere. Education is incredibly overlooked by the majority of the population, I believe, as are infrastructure and many more things which SHOULD get our attention. You know, “I got mine, fuck you”.

As to the bailouts, one seems to have saved our manufacturing base (at least for now), and the other to the financial institutions who screwed us over in the first place (which reflects how much power said institutions have). I'm in favor of the first; despise the second. Neither has anything to do with the fact that, despite all the cries from his worshippers, Reagan DID raise taxes, and those he cut benefitted the rich more than anyone else. That was my point.

I don’t believe I ever said
Quote:

that tax cuts and increases are the sole factors in what drives or stalls an economy
nor do I believe that. The fact remains that when taxes are raised, the economy does better; when they’re lowered, the economy does worse. That’s proven by history, and valid refutation is only worthwhile if facts and figures, or even explanations(!) are given, not flat statements and personal insults.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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