Wikileaks by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Wikileaks

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Thursday, June 3, 2010 22:44
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Thursday, June 3, 2010 2:12 PM

As for the tactics and doctrine being discussed here, it's gettin close enough to some things imma go all vague on you, with apologies.

Everything you've thought of, so have TPTB, and more, and tried all of it, and as Mikey says, generally they're pretty bad at it - the one exception is Biden and his crew, who actually know something about playin close to the vest and information security, look how he's tried to end run ACTA and the small arms treaty to crush fair use and the second amendment, as an example - you actually have to LOOK, have to DIG, and even then it's hard to verify any of it.

But for every thing there is a counter, and good information security is one, TPTB are completely terrible about it, and part of that is the simple fact that hackers by their very nature, the best ones, anyhow, are naturally anti-gov, so it's a mismatch from the outset.

The other thing is careful vetting of your personnel, your core group - most folks aren't really as serious about their agenda as they are about their ego and that makes it easy, or are natural followers who get wound up by a planted support org meant to draw in and sabotage members of that "cause" - the MPO (Military Pagan Organisation) was my first run-in with one of those, when I stumbled upon who was really in charge of it by auditing their finances (without explicit permission), and that's why you don't lie to your Quartermaster, cause EVERYTHING in the army leaves a massive paper trail, or at least used to...

But anyways, vetting your core personnel is critical, and the edge we have on that is that most of em have a kind of loyalty NO money, NO incentive, can buy away from them.

These folks, like Wendy, like Alice, like the guy who was gonna lose his job, home, and wife+kids if he got stop lossed again, the rescuees, these were people facing complete destruction, and got pulled out of the death-spiral.

Hell, even my company, that guy who's wife just had the kid, and our ambush baby shower, I back my people.

And that's the edge, don't you see, HUMAN things, HUMANE things - no sociopaths promise, no money from his coffers, is ever going to turn those people, they know we have our flaws, and I have mine, but it's the HUMAN factor, where TPTB are gonna lose this game.

You cannot buy loyalty with threats, with fear, with money, you can buy its pretense but that's about it - you can only buy real loyalty WITH loyalty, friendship, aid freely given, all the things that make humans truly humane, and that is something forever and ever beyond even the conception of RWA Sociopaths, leaders or followers, cause they have no sense of what it is, and never will.

Saberhagen touches on this in his Berserker series, about how and why Johann Karlsen can so successfully and repeatedly kick their ass despite them being near perfect machines, and how they are never able to predict any of his actions because they do not make sense to a machine.

And THAT, folks, is why TPTB will lose, and in the doing, hand us on a plate everything we need to crush them without even realizing it.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Addendum for clarity.

(Cue: Hammy Overlord Voice)
This also means when you send in the plants, we'll turn em on you, not just the mushroom treatment by keepin em in the dark and feeding them carefully selected misinformation, oh no...

We'll actually win them over, and then they will gleefully feed their handlers a line of shit while becoming active members of the cause.

And why, cause what do you got?
Threats, money, politics, appealing to hate and intolerance...

Compare that to the act of saving and restoring a life, and enjoying the challenge of it, feeling good about it, to see another human being grateful for YOUR actions, to have done a "good" thing and know it, in your very bones.

*snaps fingers*
THAT, for your money, your threats, your hate, all but pale, petty things in the true course of human events.

In short, we can out-bid them, every single time.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:56 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem

Thanks for understand, and yes, on occasion, I can be a dick. Those issues are actually still with me, I just elected to not air them here, except in the circumstance that I think someone here is a better shot at getting decent advice than a trip to doc, such as with the oxygen ion pressure thing.

Back to topic. Okay, I get the inhumanity of TPTB, but on the other hand, they're not looking for friends, at least, not long term. They use people on a strictly short term disposable basis. I think to not fall for those lures, you would need some defense, or fence as iPad wanted to call it. But seriously. So do you immunize your people against TPTB by encouraging digging into the topic?

Btw, I know about the mole turned double agent. At the RPUSA we got stormed by the Brigade, and a large number of those brigadiers ultimately became our strongest allies. The event itself though, was probably a fair amount of the devastating blow.

And, sure, they are bad at it, they always are. They are too convinced of their own superiority, and the nature of their organization is not conducive to seeking outside help. Actually, I suspect crowdsourcing is really not in their DNA. Still, tactics like this could be used to undermine an org. Such as yours, or any anti establishment resistance, unless the proper defense was designed.

There was another point I brought up before the damn page refreshed and now its lost and I cant recall. I'll have to read over it again and see if it occurs to me

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 4:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
So do you immunize your people against TPTB by encouraging digging into the topic?

Why would I have to ?

Remember, I rather strongly encourage folk we help to go on with their lives and forget it ever happened, and so those who are with us, after a fashion you could almost call em zealots, were they not skeptical of everything by the very nature of the work - so that very combination of strong belief backed up by cynicism is all they'd ever need.

Politically, well - ok, ok, I gotta see you try, this'll be fun...

So, tell me, what exactly, would an Authoritarian lackey or lapdog "tempt" an Anarchist against their own cause *WITH*, hmm ?

-Frem

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 5:02 PM

DREAMTROVE

Okay, right off the top of my head...

First off, TPTB In this model would be an end point of information, so they wouldn't necessarily say anything to your people, they would want to hear from them. As long as you have goals, they can potentially exploit that. You want to rescue kids from a particular situation. If I'm TPTB, which I might as well be since you just said if I think of it, they already have, which I suspect is true, a rule I generally follow when trying to figure them out, so figure they've thought of this one,.. If I'm TPTB I create information services that help you do what your trying to do. If those kids disappear and don't come back, then I know they're likely working for you. Now I have some names, that's information. I might warn them against the situation, create sleeper agents in people by predicting certain negative consequences and hoping for a later moment of weakness, I could ask them to take stealth cameras, post to my leaks page. I could encourage neighbors to go all stalinist on the country, rat on your parents, rat on your kids, if you don't rat, your not american.

Okay, I went over the top there, but I see that something on this order is potentially a security issue, and trying to see how one would deal with a world in which resistance is potentially impossible. I would like to have the faith that you have that their failure would prevent them from continuing, or destroying the world. Near as I can tell, they fail all the time, and as long as they keep trying, we have a potential problem.

Around here the big spying you see is peace groups, which each have their own CIA mole, and I suspect political groups do to, including party meetings. But this does open up a whole new level of spying. It's related to what you said earlier about the world quickly becoming a place where it was difficult to lie. Well, this goes for the resistance as well. The thing is that it will be unbalanced, because the research tools and teams that power holds will be greater, so it will become possible for them to lie to us, but not the other way around.

I watch as these stories unfold that are laced with distortion, and more common than malicious translations are the resequencing of events, like in the flotilla raid, and relation of unrelated events and spoken comments, to create the impression that something has transpired, or something has been said, when its not actually true, but without us ever really being told the falsehood, we just infer it from what were given. In this, I think maybe ten percent of the people dig enough to find out the truth, maybe not even.

A misinformed populous is a dangerous thing. The powers that be would not present themselves as such, because I wouldn't if I were them, I would become, in this venue, a series of hotlines that you could call in, send the video, text, email, or just talk to my mole Casey who has a live feed implanted in her fingernail.

I know it's not a problem yet, just thinking about this from a point of view where it is potentially a problem. Anyway, sorry it was kinda long and disjointed, just thinking out loud here.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 5:11 PM

DREAMTROVE

Still gnawing on this.

What is specifically different in this case is the unassailable information source. It robs from you the potential protection of allies. No one can keep mum about anything if the information flow is unstoppable. So, I think we all get where this can be a weapon against TPTB, i'm wondering whether it could also be a weapon against us, and if so, if there is any way to protect ourselves. Some are pretty straightforward, I assume that the inner circle at least would be paranoid enough to not spout information to an outside agency even in times of extreme stress... But potentially, once that information is out the door, it will be automatically in the public domain, or worse, in the hands of the authorities and no one else.. I suspect this is a security game changer, but I have to confess I don't know enough about it.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Two things.

First, you just in detail described why I have issues with NCMEC, cause that's exactly what it is, an appeasement tool to deter folk from actually doing anything thinking it's in "good hands" - despite even two minutes of thought about what involving civvie volunteers in the chain of evidence does to a case bringing forth the realization that they're sabotaging them, not handling them.

And all the rest of it, too, sure.

The other thing - remember I said how to jam up lie detection ?

Lemme refresh your memory - if you try to lie convincingly, well, that's a matter of skill, but eventually, enough stress, distraction, pressure, your own reactions *will* betray you, everyone is human, yes ?

But if you train in physical responses that scream "deception" till they become unthinking reflex, rote habit, like riding a bike or breaking a fall - which is how a lot of martial arts work, mind you, by exploiting how muscle memory is a one way street and damn near flawless in it's recording(1), then EVERY time you say anything at all, no matter what, even the stone truth, even when someone KNOWS you're telling the stone truth, it's still gonna give off all those deception-signals, and as such, it becomes pointless to even try, doesn't it ?

Like the way I'll flat TELL someone what I am up to, knowing they will dismiss it, and having dismissed it, the path of least resistance becomes dismissing it, and they continue to do so cause it takes no mental effort - and then they get completely fucking blindsided, don't they ?

Throw in a few Mountweazels just for good measure, and it doesn't matter what information they have, they'll never put it together correctly before it changes enough that there's no point anymore, and by accepting those Mountweazels and passing them on as intel, they reveal themselves quite easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountweazels
(You could also look up Canary Trap, but I have other means of that.)

Above all you gotta remember that pysch warfare and exploitation of pyschological blind spots are in part our methodology, so of course this would apply even to information security.

And since most Authoritarians and their lapdogs have these huge gaps in their thinking - consider it like a tape, sure, they got a little of the beginning and the end, but they wind up missing a big chunk of the middle due to the holes in their pattern of thought, their plug-n-play, no-compare mentality, the inferences and assumptions that cause it to MAKE SENSE are forever beyond their grasp, so they either wind up with nothing or their plant has to cook up a batch of useless but believable bullshit to fill the hole before he sends it on down the line.

Now you understand why I never really need worry about it ?

-Frem
(1) This is a major problem with folks who are abused when very young, cause the information sticks THERE rather than in the more easily re-writeable cognitive processes cause those ain't fully developed yet, and only intensive effort to deliberately mitigate those intrusive memories will do any good - this is likely also part of what causes "soothing behaviors" (rocking, thumb sucking, etc) as a defense mechanism.

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