Pesticides and ADHD. Connection? by Bytemite

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=10807342

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:29 AM

DREAMTROVE

Or ADHD is not a real condition.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:43 AM

Could be. It might be more convincing if they used the adult version, because adults can actually describe some kind of distracting buzzing that makes it difficult to concentrate, but I'm not sure how they'd put that kind of study together. I mean, by the time you're an adult, of course you've been exposed to pesticides, kids they can measure as they grow. Makes it more convenient, but harder to diagnose actual childhood ADHD, if it exists.

Then again, adults are probably over-exposed to caffeine, and I wonder if THAT might be the source of adult ADHD and even restless leg syndrome. Could be all cases are actually within normal psychology range.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:28 AM

DREAMTROVE

I like diagnoses that have a definite cause or relationship, such as, here's a condition connected to low blood sugar, not here's a kid who is inattentive and impulsive, sounds like they've diagnosed the condition "kid" and now they're going to try to cure it by reinventing the zombie.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:54 AM

I saw that, didn't think anyone would care much, since Rue and Siggy seem to be busy and all...

I think it's worth investigating, as is the effect of certain food colorings, but rather than a specific vector I believe it's a combination of those factors plus the environment of public schools triggering a low level fight-flight response.

Not to say cases due to genetic misfire don't exist, but by eliminating the ones that aren't by removing the root causes, we don't wind up with this medicate-everyone scattershot approach which Big Pharma enjoys so much cause it fills their pockets.

-F

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:27 AM

DREAMTROVE

Pesticides aren't good for you, but I'm going to stick to my non-existence of ADHD, or at least the rabid over-diagnosis of same.

Still, it's a nonsense diagnosis like COPD and virtually everything with a long acronym. They're a collection of symptoms, which does not a diagnosis make.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I think it's worth investigating, as is the effect of certain food colorings,

Funny you should say that, some years back I started to have these wierd pains and they were so bad I went to the Doc and had tests done, which he was a total condescending jerk about and finally came up with the brilliant diagnosis of "you need to take vitamin E, here let me spell it for you so you don't forget it" UGH! anyway, I was telling my mother about my problems and she said she had those pains and that she stopped drinking dark sodas and they went away so I stopped drinking them and haven't had a problem since, and so we both theorize that we have a slight allergy to carmel coloring. Who knows what it's doing to everyone else? They have known for years that yellow dye affects male reproduction and red food coloring in hummingbird food makes their eggshells extra brittle, so who knows, really?

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:03 PM

DT I'm curious what you think about autism spectrum disorders, such as Aspergers?

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:56 PM

Iremist, you may find this interesting then, particularly the British studies which were done with MUCH better scientific method behind them.
http://www.cspinet.org/new/200806022.html

Fair warning though, the CSPI is, itself a partisan and untrustworthy source, but since they DID cover this issue when no one else in the US would, and have actual PDF format files on the Batemann and Mccann studies, linked from within the story text, this was the best information bang for the buck I could link you.

Also, I doubt it was the caramel coloring that set you off, it was more likely Sodium Benzoate, which is fairly not-nice stuff in it's own right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_benzoate

I hope that's useful to you, and if you need more, or more specific info on that kinda thing, lemme know - trust me, most of the "food" on todays shelves is anything but, and don't even get me started on MSG or HFCS.

-F

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Wednesday, May 19, 2010 5:58 PM

Ok, I know that I get giant migraines after eating some dried fruits, and after looking around the 'net to figure out which it is, I have pretty much decided that quite literally EVERYTHING I eat is trying to kill me, and that aside of growing and storing all my own foods (which is way outa the question)I have just resigned myself to a slow downward spiral and an untimely death so, basically, nothing has changed in the last ten minutes.... Thanks for trying, anyway...

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Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:03 PM

Yeah, I noticed that problem too - thankfully I know a lot of farmers around here who think Monsanto is the spawn of the devil - but it's true, trying to limit your intake is about all the average person CAN do, but it's well worth the effort.

-F

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Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm going to stick to my non-existence of ADHD, or at least the rabid over-diagnosis of same.

It's rabidly over-diagnosed, but since the medications to increase concentration raise levels of dopamine, ADD/ADHD should be defined as dopamine deficiency, which there is a blood test for. That test is rarely, if ever, run. If it was run, it would not be as overly-diagnosed, especially in children, who have had less opportunity to screw up their chemical and hormone levels.
I have often had what I considered trouble concentrating. I've gotten very distracted or experienced a kind of buzzing that kept me from focusing. However, when my neurotransmitters were measured, my dopamine was actually elevated. College students get ADD medication on the black market to get dopamine levels like mine when they're taking exams and finals. So clearly, the occasional lack of focus is not only normal, but happens to people with abnormal levels of 'concentration' chemical, such as myself. So, if they would call it Dopamine Deficiency and actually run a test for it, I would have less issue with it. As it is, it's so often an excuse for parents not to be parents, or it's a big excuse students can use for their grades, instead of admitting that they're not getting enough sleep or they're slacking off or they're just not as smart as they think they are. Don't get me wrong, it's not always that way, and there are probably a lot of people who have low levels of dopamine and a consequential effect on their concentration. Many, many people who become addicted to nicotine have low dopamine, and the nicotine fills those receptor sites, quickly addicting them to its effects. And actually, a lot of people have been shown to have lower concentration and cognitive capacity after they quit smoking. So again, dopamine or equivalents have a marked effect on concentration. But just arbitrarily saying "I can't always focus" or "My kid runs around like some kind of crazy kid" should not be a basis for a diagnosis and medication. Especially in children. Being able to prescribe something without any sort of testing, as far as I'm concerned, is criminal. It's just lining the pockets of the drug companies. There is a blood test for this sort of thing, it should be run. There are blood tests for depression and fatigue and those sorts of things, too, I've had them. Dopamine can tie in to depression, too. They shouldn't just be run to get a real diagnosis, they should be run so the right steps should be taken. If someone is depressed because they have low dopamine and epinephrine, different steps should be taken than if someone has low serotonin and norepinephrine. And if someone can't focus because they don't get enough sleep, different steps should be taken than if they actually have low dopamine.
Those kinds of tests would also help trace what effects pesticides have on brain chemistry. Brain chemistry is really the key, here. Since there are pesticides that are designed to affect the nervous system of insects, it's not impossible that they're having effects on the nervous systems of humans, but tests should be run so there's some hard data to go on, instead of merely correlation. Correlation might give you a starting point, but no scientist worth their salt will take it as hard evidence.
I avoid pesticides, btw, and have my whole life. I think they're awful, but hard evidence that they're awful is what's necessary for a whole lot of people. Poison = bad doesn't register with everyone.

[/sig]

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Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:04 PM

PR, I have always felt that failure to perform a proper diagnosis ought to be considered malpractice, if not gross criminal negligence.

-F

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Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:31 AM

The problem is that as soon as a med professional graduates, their information is almost obsolete, and can you imagine how much time a GP would have to spend researching to be able to keep up? I asked my local doc about a new test for Rheumatoid Arthritis, or at the very least to find out who could do it or even for a good suggestion on where to go! and he really couldn't say... I've been saying for a while that large practices should have people like research assistants just to search out new treatments and actually HELP...One practically has to threaten to jump off a hospital roof before ANYONE puts any effort into research...

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Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The other issue with ADHD is that kids who have sleep apnea (yes, kids have sleep apnea) are almost always misdiagnosed as ADHD. Before a kid is EVER diagnosed with ADHD, they should have a good sleep study AND be trialed for three or four months on fish oil supplements.

Just my $0.02

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Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:39 AM

PR: Interesting. You know they also treat psychosis and various forms of catatonia with dopamine?

Also, OMG WTF neat relevant article on this in my Discover magazine this month.

So, okay, you have a female mouse. She gets pregnant, has pups. Some female mice lick their pups a lot, some of them don't. It's a common observance that mice that don't get licked a lot grow up anxious.

Well, a few scientists looked at their brains, and also the DNA in their brain cells. They found that the DNA in mice that don't get licked have methylation around DNA that codes for receptors for stress hormones. Methylation reduces expression of a codon. So the anxious/depressed mice as a result have fewer receptors for stress hormones. The receptors expressed in normal quantity are SUPPOSED to create a negative feedback and dial back the production of stress hormones. The depressed/anxious mice have fewer, so they're flooded with more stress hormones, almost all the time.

They've also started looking at the same thing in abused children, seen the same thing.

Depression in mice seems to also come from repeated failures against a rival in a competitive environment. Maybe.

It's hard with mice, because you have to anthropocentrize their behaviour. If a mouse becomes reclusive, stops interacting with other mice much, and moves around less, they're "depressed."

Although, a stressed mouse is easy to spot. Some things ARE universal.

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Thursday, May 20, 2010 7:53 AM

Yep, CITIVAS and the Child Trauma Academy, that bein Perrys people, they are, again, light years ahead of anyone else on this topic, and have not only shown those correlations, but proved it beyond any doubt whatsover, since if the abuse/neglect is severe enough, it shows up quite visibly on a CAT scan as altered brain development - not just the chemistry, but the actual physical structure.

Siggy - you got any hard data on the sleep apnea connection I can pound a few folk over the head with ?
Cause it'd be right useful, not to mention that's not a connection I was aware of, and well worth investigating in it's own right!

-F

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Thursday, May 20, 2010 7:58 AM