Yes, justices have to ask questions in order to determine their judgments, but you would think that among nine of the most brilliant legal minds in the c..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Technical difficulties at the Supreme Court

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, April 23, 2010 06:38
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Thursday, April 22, 2010 7:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, justices have to ask questions in order to determine their judgments, but you would think that among nine of the most brilliant legal minds in the country, at least one of them would do 10 minutes of research and find out what the relevant technological concepts are. Merely asking questions on such important matters isn’t enough, in my opinion, to give them a clear view of the issue.
Quote:

During oral arguments today in the case City of Ontario v. Quon, which considers whether police officers had an expectation of privacy in personal (and sexually explicit) text messages sent on pagers issued to them by the city, the justices of the Supreme Court at times seemed to struggle with the technology involved.

The first sign was about midway through the argument, when Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. - who is known to write out his opinions in long hand with pen and paper instead of a computer - asked what the difference was “between email and a pager?”

Other justices’ questions showed that they probably don’t spend a lot of time texting and tweeting away from their iPhones either.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: But my question is, an employee reads this policy and says, oh, my e-mails are going to be subject to being monitored –

MR.DAMMEIER: Sure.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Wouldn’t that employee expect that the policy would carry over to pagers? When you think of what’s the reason why they want to look at the e-mails, wouldn’t the same reason apply?

At one point, Justice Anthony Kennedy asked what would happen if a text message was sent to an officer at the same time he was sending one to someone else.

“Does it say: ‘Your call is important to us, and we will get back to you?’” Kennedy asked.

Justice Antonin Scalia wrangled a bit with the idea of a service provider: “You mean (the text) doesn’t go right to me?” he asked.

The Chief Justice admitted he believed that once “you push a button; it goes right to the other thing” without passing through a service provider. When Attorney Dammeir pointed out that in today’s society it is reasonable to assume texts travel through a service provider, rather than directly from one device to another, Justice Scalia admitted, “Yeah, I didn’t know.”

Then he asked whether they can be printed out in hard copy: “Could Quon print these spicy little conversations and send them to his buddies?” Scalia asked.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Maybe — maybe everybody else knows this, but what is the difference between the pager and the e-mail?

MR. DAMMEIER: Sure. The e-mail, looking at the computer policy, that goes through the city’s computer, it goes through the city’s server, it goes through all the equipment that — that has — that the city can easily monitor. Here the pagers are a separate device that goes home with you, that travels with you, that you can use on duty, off-duty.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: You can do that with e-mails.

The Chief Justice went on to ask “if you punched in in [sic] your search station, you know, give me all the bakers in Washington, that would make it patentable?” Typewriters? Search stations?

It wasn’t just the justices who had technical difficulties. When Justice Samual Alito asked Quon’s attorney Dieter Dammeier if officers could delete text messages from their pagers in a way that would prevent the city from retrieving them from the wireless carrier later, Dammeier said that they could.

A few minutes later, Alito gave Dammeier another shot at that question.

“Are you sure about your answer on deletion?” Alito asked.

Dammeier admitted that he didn’t know. “I couldn’t be certain,” he said.

http://lawyersusaonline.com/dcdicta/2010/04/19/technical-difficulties-
at-the-supreme-court-2
/
Quote:

None of the Supreme Court Justices in the case appeared to possess a familiarity with the workings of modern technology.

Laws governing technology are expanding at an ever-increasing rate. As soon as a new technology arises, governing legislation follows closely behind. It is up to the courts to interpret these laws in a fair and predictable manner. Predictability of the laws governing the creation, protection, transfer and use of technology are critical to the smooth flow of business in our society. Failure to accurately and fairly administer laws relating to technology costs industries billions of dollars and paves the way for the unscrupulous to capitalize on perceived weaknesses in the law.

http://blawgit.com/2010/04/20/the-united-states-supreme-court-v-techno
logy
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"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA



*snort*

You wanna talk about funny, you shoulda seen the hearing at which they were trying to explain Email and the Internet to Strom Thurmond - THAT was funny, doll.

-F

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, good lord, that must have been hysterical! Trying to explain the 21st century to someone out of the 19th? Overtime...I'm sensing overtime...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:33 AM

BYTEMITE


I think this was the "series of tubes" incident.

When the FF came up with the idea of a supreme court and life long terms for justices, they were probably focused on the whole wisdom and experience part of age. They didn't anticipate technological advancement at a pace that tends to leave older generations behind.

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:17 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, I think you nailed it. As times change, wouldn't it be great if there were enough changes in government to keep up? Personally I think "lifetime appointments" is bad news anyway...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 12:40 PM

BYTEMITE


Complete agreement.

...So... Hey, do you like potstickers? Cause I got some at home. Coordinated internet eating for friendly bonding experiences.

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Thursday, April 22, 2010 1:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What I find most disturbing about all of this (and I'm not immune to the humor inherent in these bumbling old coots trying to figure out how "the wireless" can telegraph your thoughts to others...) is the notion that somehow the police think THEY have some expectation of privacy in these matters, when it's been made abundantly clear that NONE of us should have any expectation of privacy where our electronic communications are concerned.

They think they're special 'cause they're police? Good luck with that! Maybe it's time the same rules applied to them that they try to apply to us.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, April 22, 2010 1:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Complete agreement.

...So... Hey, do you like potstickers? Cause I got some at home. Coordinated internet eating for friendly bonding experiences.




Good idea. Makes me wish I had potstickers, but I'm having breakfast for dinner. Mmmmmm... bacon. The candy bar of meats.

And no, I'm not hitting on you! :) (Just didn't want you getting that creeped-out vibe like the guy who bugs you when you're eating lunch!)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, April 22, 2010 1:41 PM

BYTEMITE


Guys, as in multiple times, as in five times since November. Maybe a few times before then. Possibly far too often since I started working in a bad part of town.

It's cool. I have forceably reminded myself that guys want sex, but that doesn't necessarily preclude intelligence or makes them evil scum or the like.

One of these days the RWED ought to have a group eat-in.

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Friday, April 23, 2010 12:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I was knockin back Fish N Chips, home cooked, with an india pale ale, was pretty good.

And while not explicitly hitting on ya, the temptation encourages me to "buzz the tower" in subtle ways despite knowin our very nature makes anything more than that impossible.

-F

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Friday, April 23, 2010 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Or: "Maybe it's time the same rules applied to them that they [] APPLY to us." ...Good luck with THAT!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, April 23, 2010 6:27 AM

MINCINGBEAST


judge's don't need to keep up with the increasingly dynamic interplay between the law and technology--that's for practicing attorneys. also, a judge could be drooling his senility, and in soiled diapers on the bench, and the system would still work so long as he had a competent clerk. judge's have a vast support staff. so that fact that antonius scalia is confused is not cause for alarm.

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Friday, April 23, 2010 6:38 AM

MINCINGBEAST


also, best argument for life tenures is it leads to justices that are not beholden to the rotten bastards that appointed them. in theory, leads to greater impartiality, and justices that don't reach their decisions on political considerations. case in point: stevens, appointed by a rotten fascist, turned out to be a liberal (if in my humble opinion, a totally uninspiring one). if doddering old coots who don't know teh interwebz is the price we pay, i'm ok with that.

actually, all judges are political bastard, and the only time anyone ever says with a straight face that its just a matter of calling balls and strikes is 1) when they're getting confirmed and 2) when they're lying, which is pretty much the same.

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