Health Care Summit???? by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Health Care Summit????

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:44
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VIEWED: 1030
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Friday, February 26, 2010 7:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Anyone catch any of it??? Any opinions on whether it did any harm, or good, from whatever standpoint you view it??

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:02 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I saw a good deal of it. I don't think ultimately anything got accomplished, but I think it was interesting, and a worthwhile experience. I thought the President did an admirable job of keeping it civil and moving along. Good points were made from both sides.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I made a point of keeping my head in the sand on this one. This is another topic that's just too painful. Since I've been to Canada quite a bit and know Canadians, I know how good a health care system can be. And even Canada isn't the best of the best. Why we just don't give up what's been proven that frakkin' DOESN'T WORK and go with what's been proven does is way beyond stupidity.

***************************************************************

Just venting.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

political theatre, nothing more, sadly. ploy by dems to show 'bipartisan' attempt, failed so now they can justify reconcilliation. was noted that no dems were even taking notes on repub suggestions. and both sides just speevh-making for cameras. mccain made me sick. obama side-stepped questions, issues.

weaste of time--whoever bitched 'why talk reconciliation before summit?' was right. but repubs came prepared, give 'em that. thought they came off looking better, despite speechifying and 'props'.

in dems defense, they knew nothing would come of it good ploy to put up reconciliation beforehand, get people used to idea and be ready to say, 'well no luck, on to reconciliation'. yhat's all i saw.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:17 AM

MAL4PREZ

I didn't watch much of it. All I really want to know about it is this:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-25-2010/bipartisan-heal
th-care-reform-summit-2010

"That shit was Jedi!" LOL! I want to bear Jon Stewart's children.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, February 26, 2010 10:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What I gather from the left-wing press is that this was Obama's final and VERY public offer to the Repubs for a last chance at bipartisanship, and the step before ditching the Repubs and forging on ahead with a reconcilliation vote.

If so, smart move.

OTOH, it remains to be seen what he does once the deck is cleared of Repubs. Pelosi is still pressing for a public option, so it's up to the Senate as to whether or not they'll go forward with it.

If that's the case, it's more important than ever to keep both public and private pressure up on reluctant Senators to sign on to the public option.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 11:12 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I didn't watch much of it. All I really want to know about it is this:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-25-2010/bipartisan-heal
th-care-reform-summit-2010

"That shit was Jedi!" LOL! I want to bear Jon Stewart's children.

BWAHAHAH!!

Thanks M4P! "I would disqualify you for sucking!"

A laugh helps, otherwise I feel like Rue; it's too painful to watch these idiots grandstand and do absolutely nothing AND be proud of it. I see no desire from Reps to join in the conversation, more obstructionist politics. F*CKERS.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 26, 2010 11:15 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

weaste of time--whoever bitched 'why talk reconciliation before summit?' was right....

in dems defense, they knew nothing would come of it good ploy to put up reconciliation beforehand, get people used to idea and be ready to say, 'well no luck, on to reconciliation'.

You sound like you are arguing with yourself.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, February 26, 2010 12:00 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
'why talk reconciliation before summit?' was right.

Huh? Various people merely talking about a possible solution to a problem is somehow...what? Disingenuous? Unfair? You seem to have fallen for the Republican's b.s. frame: "It's the Dems' fault we won't have bipartisanship 'cause they had the gall to take our obstructionism seriously and dared to TALK OUTLOUD about ways to get around us! Unbelievable! They need to control their imaginations and stop trying to solve their problems or the process is broken!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 4:54 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mal4, THANK YOU! Out here all the times changed for shows because of the summit; by the time I noticed, Stewart was over and it was Vancouverage and Colbert, so I missed that. As usual: GO Jon!

And as Mike said: "A laugh helps, otherwise I feel like Rue; it's too painful to watch these idiots grandstand and do absolutely nothing AND be proud of it. I see no desire from Reps to join in the conversation, more obstructionist politics. F*CKERS." And yes, ditto Rue.

Yes, Sig. I too am waiting to see what happens, and I WISH someone would shove the public option in their faces, dammit... anyone remember "where do we go, from here?"

No, Story, not arguing with myself. Conceding a point. Someone here remarked about why talk about reconciliation before the summit, as it denegrated the summit as just a game (trap?). I had hoped not, that it was a ploy to get the Repubs to actually participate. Whether it was or not, what I saw was political theater (I DID catch the puppet thing), and I was bummed that nobody on the Dem side was even taking notes or ATTEMPTING to deal with the issues they had in common. More pissed at the Repubs for THEIR puppet theater in having no intention of "negotiating", as they haven't all along, but the snippets I saw weren't serious "summiting". I didn't see it all, so my opinion is just formed from the clips--and I saw some of them way too many times (that which is "dramatic" makes the news...a la McCain).

No, Cav, that's not what I was saying. I thought the reconciliation talk coming when it did was a way of saying "put up or shut up", and the person in question here was posting as if the summit had been canceled and they were just going with reconciliation. I responded let's wait for the summit. Stupid optimism; I hoped something might actually HAPPEN. Not a big hope, just a little teeeny one in the back of my mind. I'm not totally stupid, just optimistic.

I believe in the end they were right; unless the Repubs pulled a rabbit out of the hat and actually tried to come to some kinds of compromises, the reconciliation talk was just to lay the groundwork for "see, they wouldn't play, now we'll go reconciliation". I resented it, however valid it may be. Also an idealist...sigh...

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Friday, February 26, 2010 6:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Actually, Niki, that was Pizmo that said that. I happen to agree, but credit where credit is due, and all that.

I'm glad they did this. Sure it was pure political theatre, but so is pretty much every single talking point you see or hear about, in one way or another. Joe the Plumber was nothing but theatre - there was no substance to him, there was no "there" there. But it got peoples' attention for a time, and might have even changed a few minds, or at least allowed McCain to reframe the debate a bit.

This was the same tactic. Reframe the debate. The Republicans are now saying that RECONCILIATION is "the nuclear option" - even though they know goddam good and well that they're outright lying. They don't care; they're counting on the public to NOT know that, to NOT know what the hell "the nuclear option" refers to, except to remember that they've heard it before in regards to legislation, and somehow the Democrats were portrayed negatively in its context.

So the Democrats make a show of inviting the Republicans into the debate - let's all sit down and hash out our ideas. And the Republicans make a show of accepting, and showing up, but only with several concessions. They said they WOULD NOT be lectured to by a professorial Obama, from a lectern or podium; they demanded he be at the exact same height as them, at the same table. This really was one of their demands; there were others as well, most of them equally ludicrous.

The Democrats acceded to many of those demands, which threw the other side off a bit, because they thought they were making demands which wouldn't be met, and then they'd have an easy excuse to not show up. But Obama agreed to them, so they were a bit backed into a corner.

During the meeting, several Republicans brought up points (McCain was notable in one instance, bringing up a point as if he were spoiling for a fight, only to be caught short when Obama said he agreed with McCain and thought it was something that should be worked on and looked into) to which the Democrats were more than accommodating, and yet every time it came back to the Republicans, all they could offer was to keep repeating "We just need to scrap the whole thing and start from scratch." This was their bullet point, this and "We need to go step by step," both soundbite sentences no doubt handed to them by talking points guru and right-wing pollster Frank Luntz.

So it came across as the Democrats actively trying to work with their opponents across the table, and the Republicans, time and time again, saying that their version of bipartisanship involves trashing everything you've done and just agreeing to their way or nothing at all. And the people saw that, and realize it for what it is - the Republican leadership is trying to do nothing for them at all, except to obstruct ANY progress on ANY issue.

Bonus points go to Obama for still getting in his digs at the Republicans, in a very polite way, and reminding them that, with or without the podium, he is still the leader of the free world, and that comes with some perks and privileges that mere Senators and Congresspeople aren't entitled to. (I'm speaking of the moment when Mitch McConnell tried to point out that "the Democrats" had spoken for 24 minutes more than the Republicans, including the President's opening remarks. The President gently reminded him that he did indeed get to make some opening remarks, because he is, after all, THE PRESIDENT. Beauty. Point, Obama.)

More bonus points for his putting McCain squarely in his place. Did Obama actually give him a dismissive wave with the back of his hand, or did it just seem that way from his tone of voice? "We're not campaigning, John. The election's over." I felt a bit sorry for McCain for his reply, "I'm reminded of that every day," and trying to laugh it off, when it clearly stung him and shrunk him in his chair.

I saw those instants as Obama reminding the others present that the "bully pulpit" doesn't spring from the Oval Office, or the President's podium (with or without the official seal of office), but from the title itself: President of the United States of America. And yes, he gets to call you John, or Mitch, or Eric, and you still have to call him Mister President.

I didn't see Congressman Joe Wilson there. I wonder why that was...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, February 26, 2010 6:10 PM

KWICKO

By the way, Niki, you know the old saying?

"There's two things you never want to see being made: laws, and sausages."

Now you know why that's so true.

Yes, it's disturbing, despicable, and disappointing. But for political junkies, it's also a bit fascinating. The maneuvering, the tricks and ploys, the gamesmanship, it's all a bit awe-inspiring, in its own weird way.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ah, so my conceding a point is to you, Pizmo, thanx for reminding me Mike.

Two of those demands weren't met, Mike; that he scrap the bill as it stands and start from scratch, and that he promise not to do reconciliation. I knew of a couple more, but not the ones you mentioned. Same height and no podicum: Ridiculous!

I agree with all you said...looks like I was wrong to wait for the snippets, as I didn't see a lot of what you did, but saw the McCain thing over and over on different stations. Bah!

Well, it's over now...now we wait and see what the Dems do...

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Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:14 PM

KWICKO

Well, the thing with the same height/no podium deal was that they didn't want it to appear as if they were being talked down to by someone superior, and they wanted everybody to appear as equals. They thought that seating the President with them would do the trick. It didn't. He seemed Presidential, they seemed to shrink visibly when he put them in their place.

Obama comported himself with a sense of power. It's not arrogance; it's that he knows that he really IS the most powerful man in the room, and if he needs to remind others of that from time to time, he will.

This is the Obama I voted for. When he speaks off the cuff, he's better. He leads best when leading from his head and heart, not when reading from a script. And when he goes on what he KNOWS, not on what's been written for him, he shows a command of the facts that tends to fluster and humble his opposition.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Heh, I told you that was bait from the very start, and this was exactly what he was gonna do, and they chowed down on it hook line and sinker.

It wasn't about negotiating, or compromising, it was to draw them out, let them stick their necks out nice and far, and WHACK, with an axe - by showing the american people in no uncertain terms what kinda obstinate, obstructionist, juvenile jackasses they are being about this, and therefore eroding any support for them and their dumbass stonewalling.

Worked pretty well too, didn't it ?

Not that I am all that fond of the guy, but he is good at his job, as is Biden - we just differ rather sharply on what the job *IS*.

But anything that puts another torpedo into the rapidly sinking ship of the GOP is a plus to me, since if we don't finish the job, future generations will pay for it dearly, the same way we paid dearly for the people that failed to finish the job with Nixon, since a great deal of his chums, hangers-on, and enablers came back to haunt us under Bush.

So if we can't bury em under the jail, then drive them and their party to complete ruin and salt the very earth where it falls.

And THEN... send the damn Dems right on after em.

History marches on, and sometimes it marches over folk - and sometimes, them folk deserve it.

-F

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:48 AM

RIVERLOVE

Summit? Obama himself spoke longer than all the Republicans combined. And no rebuttal follow-ups were permitted after the great one spoke the last words on each topic. How democratic and fair! He really is an oblivious ideological ego-maniac, with his flowery prose eloquently obscuring the reality that he is a terribly weak leader who has no clue or experience how to govern. Can't wait until the Dems get their well-deserved payback this fall and find themselves back home with no job.

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 4:05 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Reps spend more time on how to gum up the works than actually on solving problems. Seriously, in their *brainstorm* session before this meeting what do you suppose they talked about most? How to make Health Care work, or how to make Obama/Dems look bad?

I almost don't want to get a Public Option. I know that if by some miracle we find a way to give basic health care to 50 million people who currently use the $ER$, that the Reps will work ceaselessly behind the scenes to make sure it fails just so they can say, "SEE! We told you so!"

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 4:39 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Reps spend more time on how to gum up the works than actually on solving problems. Seriously, in their *brainstorm* session before this meeting what do you suppose they talked about most? How to make Health Care work, or how to make Obama/Dems look bad?

I almost don't want to get a Public Option. I know that if by some miracle we find a way to give basic health care to 50 million people who currently use the $ER$, that the Reps will work ceaselessly behind the scenes to make sure it fails just so they can say, "SEE! We told you so!"

What they spent their time on was rehearsing their one-line sloganeering. "Start from scratch!" "Go step by step!" "Scrap the whole thing!"

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 6:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Mike, that's what I heard most of in the snippets. A pundit would run them all together, using exactly the same language; it looked funny. Got me wondering if the Republicans in Congress are all part of one great cell with many tentacles, and the cell only has one brain, so each tentacle repeats the same thing...

Piz, I don't think so...I think, were the country to get the public option

, they'd move on to the next thing they'd try to destroy....jobs bill next? Or something else? Energy?

That seems to be the pattern; like with SCHIP and Medicare, they ignored it once it was there (with the exception of trying to kill it every chance they got) and moved on to the next thing they could obstruct. JMHO.

Hey River, good to hear an opposing voice, even if we disagree. I think if he'd allowed rebuttals, they'd have gone on forever; their intent was to obstruct, not to offer anything valid. Nonetheless, I thought with a couple of exceptions that they came across much better than one would expect: "They came to play", not that it did any good. Frem's right; it might have been a last-ditch attempt to find common points, but I think after all this time, the Dems pretty much knew that wasn't going to happen, so if it didn't, it was a set-up to move on to reconciliation.

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

(HOSTILITY WARNING: minor rantage will ensue)

Well Niki, I kinda have a grudge about that kinda thing, cause ever since we sent Engler packing it's been one longass nonstop campaign of sabotage and bullshit by everyone from that fucker Bishop on down, and specifically including that useless scumbag Cox...

They are completely, absolutely, willing to burn our entire state to the very ground rather than have it in any hands but theirs, and other than a loud, stupid, vocal minority that directly benefits from their abuses, the people of this state are very, VERY angry about this.

You gotta remember how long this has been going on here, Engler deliberately sabotaged everything he could reach, once he knew he was out, and just trying to fix the damage cost us deep and dearly, and we have this little problem with the Secretary of State *always* being a Rethug, and ALWAYS "winning" by the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF VOTES (18,181 votes, google it and TRY telling me that this is statistically possible), every single time (might I note this is the office that'd be in charge of investigating election chicanery, convenient, eh ?) despite polls being overwhelmingly in the opposite direction...

So when you consider the "electronic advantage" that voters had to overcome to install Jenny as Governor, that's pretty damned impressive given that most of it didn't have much to do with liking her (although I do, for reasons having naught to do with her governorship) as much as a bitter hatred for the other guys, who's candidates have been PLOWED COMPLETELY UNDER, 2 for 2, despite that huge "electronic advantage" no one around here wants to talk about.

Then there was the phony budget crisis, and the lies, lies, lies, stonewalling and sabotage, and let's not forget the sexism/racism, and politically motivated prosecutions (we KNEW Kilpatrick was a crook, ok, but if it's a choice between a crook and a fucking monster who thinks he's gods chosen one....) by a prosecutor (Kym Worthy) who is *THE* most corrupt official in the entire goddamn state, grrrrr...

And all the while that quiet little scrape scrape in the wee hours of the night as all those "W" bumperstickers slowly disappeared, as if we'd forget, as if we'd forgive, as if we don't know who the goddamn quisling backstabbers who put party politics over our fucking economic SURVIVAL are ?

McCain didn't quite get it either, just *how long* michiganders can hold a friggin grudge, holding a speech touting nuclear power down the street from a plant we didn't want in the first place, which almost immediately went into meltdown, almost wiped out Detroit (not that some folk wouldn't think that a blessing) and never properly worked or even put out all that much juice, winding up a costly, dangerous, idiotic boondoggle.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/nucacc.html

Response to McCains speech was... impressively hostile, in a cold, silent kinda way, I was actually there and it was barely short of what David Duke would get trying to give a speech on racial segregation in Harlem.

So, given the amount of LOCAL bullshit from the Rethugs, and the direct negative impact upon michiganders from this crap EVERY GODDAMN DAY, in ways that cannot be ignored, or denied, on top of eight years of Bush ?

They OUGHT to be glad the public isn't shaking nooses at them when they campaign (which, other than sandbagging and sabotage, is ALL they do, and often as not on the publics time and dime, yeah, YOU, Mister Cox!) cause these folks are *pissed* - DeVos got booed out of his OWN freaking district when he tried to campaign there.

Gonna miss Jenny though, not sure Cherry is up to the job, but I will back him ALL THE WAY, rather than risk another one of these fucking monsters at the reigns.

And I am very much not alone in that sentiment.

-F

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, somebody's pissed!

Rant away, my dear, sounds like you've got more than enough reason!

I imagine we suck just about as badly, I just don't know about it, in truth, am woos enough not to WANT to. We hear things now and again, but our biggest problem that I'm aware of is the damned Govenator, who stole money from education over and over and has worsened our economic plight.

I think every state is screwed in its own way; we DO need to get 'em all out (well, I'd keep Boxer and DiFi, and Grayson, and Franken, but that's about all). But what we really NEED is a nutbag filter, so the true crazies like Malkin don't replace them... like that'll ever happen...

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Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:44 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Summit? Obama himself spoke longer than all the Republicans combined. And no rebuttal follow-ups were permitted after the great one spoke the last words on each topic. How democratic and fair! He really is an oblivious ideological ego-maniac, with his flowery prose eloquently obscuring the reality that he is a terribly weak leader who has no clue or experience how to govern. Can't wait until the Dems get their well-deserved payback this fall and find themselves back home with no job.

You still have this quaint idea that your minority should have the same powers as not only the majority in the Senate and House, but as the President himself. Sorry, but when he calls a meeting, he gets to have the first word and the last.

But, since I'm sure a Republican President would never be so shamelessly self-promoting and selfish, and since I'm sure you have the figures right there handy, could you please remind us all just how many minutes Dubya allowed for rebuttals and opposing viewpoints on the deck of that aircraft carrier during his "Mission Accomplished" speech?

You have this notion that it's unfair that Obama got to talk more than the Republicans. How did you expect it to go? A Republican asks a question or makes a point, Obama answers or rebuts; a Democrat asks a question or makes a point, Obama rebuts or answers. Do you see the pattern? Republicans get to ask half the questions, Democrats get to ask half the questions, but the President has to participate in 100% of the answers. So yeah, he's going to talk more than Mitch McConnell. If that's a problem, maybe McConnell should run for President. Be sure and let me know how that works out for ya! ;)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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