No, wait, it's up to SIXTEEN! This was mentioned in another thread, but I think it deserves its own. Something is stirring...[quote]Public Option Suppor..."/>

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POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:41
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Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, wait, it's up to SIXTEEN! This was mentioned in another thread, but I think it deserves its own. Something is stirring...
Quote:

Public Option Support Surging In Senate

UPDATE: Thursday, 12:23 PM -- The Las Vegas Sun reports that while Nevada voters are opposed to the previous health care bill, they support moving it through by using reconciliation.

See the poll by Research 200 at http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/nv_poll_20100210/?action_id=3
081972&akid=.516684.ZjdoMV
.

UPDATE: Thursday, 11:43 AM -- Adrianne Marsh, a spokesperson for Sen. Michael Bennett (D-Colo.), who is leading the effort, says that there are now 16 signatures on the letter calling for the public option to be moved through the Senate under reconciliation. The most recent to sign, said Marsh, is Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.).

UPDATE: Thursday, 11:21 AM -- "Senator Mikulski has signed on to that letter," says Rachel MacKnight, a spokeswoman to Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.), up for reelection in 2010. Mikulski is a veteran lawmaker and chairwoman of a HELP subcommittee.

UPDATE: Thursday, 10:05 AM -- Organizers of the effort say that Sens. Jack Reed (D-R.I.) and Tom Udall (D-N.M.) have now signed on, bringing the number to 13.

UPDATE: Wednesday, 9:39 PM -- Sens. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.) are the latest to indicate support for the use of reconciliation to pass health care reform legislation that includes a public option.

The Minnesota Independent published part of a prepared statement from Klobuchar:

I would want to make sure that the bill contains the Medicare care cost reform measures included in the existing bill. I am also supportive of the President's efforts to forge a bipartisan agreement. We must reduce health care costs for the people of this country.

Susan Sullam, a spokeswoman for Sen. Cardin said Wednesday that "Senator Cardin has always been for a strong public option. He also has long thought reconciliation was a viable option for passing strong health care reform."

Neither Klobuchar nor Cardin appear ready to sign a letter penned by by four other senators endorsing both the public option and the use of reconciliation. Eleven senators have signed the the letter.

----

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) became the 11th Senator to sign on to a new effort by Democrats to press Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) to pass a public option for insurance coverage using reconciliation, her office confirmed to the Huffington Post on Wednesday.

The California Democrat joins a list of mostly progressive members to offer her late-stage support for the government run plan. In a letter to Reid on Tuesday a quartet of Democrats penned urged Reid to pass the proposal through parliamentary procedures that allow a simple up-or-down vote.

The senators outlined their rationale for supporting the public option in their letter:

Susan Sullam, a spokeswoman for Sen. Cardin said Wednesday that "Senator Cardin has always been for a strong public option. He also has long thought reconciliation was a viable option for passing strong health care reform."

Neither Klobuchar nor Cardin appear ready to sign a letter penned by by four other senators endorsing both the public option and the use of reconciliation. Eleven senators have signed the the letter.

----

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) became the 11th Senator to sign on to a new effort by Democrats to press Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) to pass a public option for insurance coverage using reconciliation, her office confirmed to the Huffington Post on Wednesday.

The California Democrat joins a list of mostly progressive members to offer her late-stage support for the government run plan. In a letter to Reid on Tuesday a quartet of Democrats penned urged Reid to pass the proposal through parliamentary procedures that allow a simple up-or-down vote.

The senators outlined their rationale for supporting the public option in their letter:

Susan Sullam, a spokeswoman for Sen. Cardin said Wednesday that "Senator Cardin has always been for a strong public option. He also has long thought reconciliation was a viable option for passing strong health care reform."

Neither Klobuchar nor Cardin appear ready to sign a letter penned by by four other senators endorsing both the public option and the use of reconciliation. Eleven senators have signed the the letter.

----

The senators outlined their rationale for supporting the public option in their letter:
Quote:

We respectfully ask that you bring for a vote before the full Senate a public health insurance option under budget reconciliation rules.

There are four fundamental reasons why we support this approach - its potential for billions of dollars in cost savings; the growing need to increase competition and lower costs for the consumer; the history of using reconciliation for significant pieces of health care legislation; and the continued public support for a public option.

In putting her name among the signatories Feinstein expands the pool of senators pushing for a public plan beyond the progressive wing and those lawmakers facing primary challenges in the 2010 midterm elections. The California Democrat has been a supporter of the proposal from the start, though not a particularly vocal one. The recent news that the largest insurer in her home state, Anthem Blue Cross, was raising premiums on its customers by as much as 39 percent played a role in her decision.

"I can think of no better example of why we need health insurance reform," she said of the rate-hike news, "and this kind of behavior is a stark reminder of why any reform plan should establish a rate authority to keep insurance rates affordable."

The list of Senators currently signing the letter includes Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.), Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio), Michael Bennet (D-Col.), Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.), Bernie Sanders (I-VT), Al Franken (D-Minn.), Pat Leahy (D-VT), Roland Burris (D-Ill.), John Kerry (D-Mass.), and Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI).

Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), chairman of the Senate health committee, isn't yet signing on to the effort, but said through a spokeswoman that he "has always strongly supported the public option and will continue to fight for comprehensive health care reform."



Yeah, it's Huffpost, but still...I'm actually surprised DiFi signed on (she's always been seen by us as the quintissential "politician's politician"--maybe she's just jumping on the bandwagon, I dunno, but I've got an e-mail off to Barbara Boxer to GET ON!




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Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh please, dear gods, let it become a freight train....

I'm gonna be writing AND calling too!!

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, there's even MORE exciting news! Yes, it's Maddow, but it's exciting to me:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35450836

Aside from the public option part, Bernie Sanders had some really interesting things to all the things they WOULD be able to do through reconcilliation if they just gave up on trying to deal with the Repubs. (it's at 4:13)

Call me a cockeyed optimist, but MAYBE the Dems are finally accepting the Repubs are going to filibuster everything, and going it alone.

If he's for real, there are a whole bunch of OTHER things they could do with the same bill under reconcilliation: Education, Pell Grants, child care, school construction! Beyond that, he says they can go back and, again through reconcilliation, deal with infrastructure, energy, jobs! They could do away with Bush's tax cuts for the rich to pay for it and getting rid of unnecessary military expenditures, corporate welfare, since under reconcilliation you have to cut the deficit to pay for anything else--which is "pay as you go", that the Republicans were in favor of until Obama agreed . Wow!

Okay, I KNOW this might be pie in the sky; I KNOW you have to get 50 + Biden to make it work; I KNOW that the drawback to reconcilliation is that the next Prez can undo it...but damn, it's something to make my little heart leap!!!

GO DEMS! Whatcha think?



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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:04 AM

STORYMARK


I was gonna call my Senator... then saw he's already on the list. Right on.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:09 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


CALL ANYWAY !

They need to know they're not pissing into the wind ! ( Or in the case of Feinstein and others, spitting into the sky.)

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rue's right, Story: CALL!!! Encourage them, let them know how the people really think; they need all the encouragement they can get, to put up against the Dems who are dragging their feet.

I forgot about calling, will do that today...AND write and call DiFi to encourage her (which goes against the grain, 'cuz tho' she usually does what we want, she often puts politics first...)



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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:24 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Bumping and reposting helpful links

www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/16/health.care.harry.reid/index.html?hpt=
T2



Move your money
http://moveyourmoney.info/find-a-bank

The Richest 1% Have Captured America's Wealth -- What's It Going to Take to Get It Back?
www.alternet.org/economy/145705/the_richest_1%25_have_captured_america
%27s_wealth_--_what%27s_it_going_to_take_to_get_it_back


CREDO ACTION
www.credoaction.com

Demand answers from Blue Cross
www.moveon.org/

HEALTH CARE NOW! (calendar)
www.healthcare-now.org/takeaction/events-calendar/

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ayep, puttin the squeeze on, Dingbat (Dingell) is my best option as Conyers has no balls and Hokey is a friggin shithead and I am saving what influence I have on him for another important purpose.

-F

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I thought you guys hated the Healthcare bill. Now you want it??

I have to pay only $22/week in "pre-tax" dollars for my company healthcare insurance. It's almost invisible to me, so if this gets rammed through, will it screw up my good thing?

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I want the public option.

Public: Not run by private insurances.

Option: A choice.

What I DON'T want is exactly what passed the Senate: mandatory private insurance with government subsidies.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:42 AM

STORYMARK


I hated the idea of a bill that mandated insurance without a public option. I AM pro-public option.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, I learned long ago that they count each letter and call as X number of constituents who feel the same but didn't bother. I don't know how much power you have outside calling and writing, and that certainly you should hold for something you feel important enough. But an e-mail or call takes minimum time and effort, and counts as more people than just you, so why not?

I don't know what it would do to your insurance, JS, but it's not the existing bill they want to pass. They want to pass one with the public option which changes some of the more egregious things the insurance industry is doing, and WITH the public option originally proposed.

I repeat: It's NOT the bill as it stands now that they want to pass under reconcilliation, it's a bill without all the stuff put in to appease the Republicans and the pork put in to buy the recalcitrant Blue Dogs. It would be a cleaner bill (hopefully MUCH cleaner). Some of what it would do that the current bill doesn't, and some of what they'd take OUT that's in the current bill now, is itemized in the video. We'd have to see the whole thing to know how it would affect us.

I was against the current bill because it has too many payoffs to the insurance lobby, too many compromises (and gimmes!) to buy Republican votes, and the pork to the Blue Dogs was absolutely WRONG. I've come around again because I realize something is better than nothing; if nothing were done, it not only hurts the Dems but hurts the country, and would be a long time before anyone tried again--and hopefully some of the worst parts could be taken out in time.

But this, this I'd REALLY be for; it sounds like the clean version they started with, which was the best.

Oops, apologies for rambling; I see two jumped in while I was writing to clarify it.



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Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:56 AM

JONGSSTRAW


So these Dems are preparing to ram through "their" bill, despite the Obama call for a summit and cooperation with Republicans? I guess that's a lot like last week when Secretary Gibbs mocked Sarah Palin the same day Obama called for bi-partisan civility. I see how that works now.....President Obama acts as a smiling, lying iconic leader, while the detested Pelosi/Reid (less than 20% popularity) do whatever they want. Seems fair.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, polls are simply indicators, not debate, but from Niki's link:

QUESTION: Do you favor or oppose the health care reform bill passed in December by the U.S. Senate?
FAVOR OPPOSE NOT SURE
34% ..58% ..8%

QUESTION: Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of buying into a government administered health insurance plan – something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get – that would compete with private health insurance plans?
FAVOR OPPOSE NOT SURE
56% ..38% ...6%

What the majority of the people DON'T like about the senate plan is the lack of a public option. And the majority DO want a public option.

As for not caring about 'debate', I thought we had pretty good reasons to conclude that republicans are not interested in debating.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


JS, the proposal of a summit has been unilaterally rejected by Republicans for the silliest of reasons ("I don't know what the size of the room will be" ???), and many of them have said it's a "trap". I haven't heard anything about it being cancelled, so, knowing what's gone before, I'd bet that if they actually came, and actually PARTICIPATED in forming something that would be a good health care bill, that would happen. Nobody likes reconcilliation (except maybe Dumbya, who did a LOT that way), so it's not the first, second or even third option. But if nothing else can be done and efforts at health care reform are completely stymied, despite multiple efforts at compromise, maybe it's the LAST option.

It's been shown over and over that the Repubs offered things in the past, even co-sponsored, spoke out on, etc., which they are now rebuffing because of this determination of theirs to be against anything Obama or the Dems are in favor of. The way they've behaved on the stimulus shows that they're willing to vote against, then take credit for, then rail against AGAIN, things which are helpful for their constituents. How you can defend those things is beyond me.

You can diss the Dems all you want, but to do nothing on ANYTHING because the Repubs are determined to stymie EVERYTHING is even more absurd than anything you accuse the Dems of, in my opinion.

Rue: Nice find, I missed all that. And yes, "debate" is an extinct species right now, as is "compromise" on the right, you're correct.



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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:25 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
You can diss the Dems all you want, but to do nothing on ANYTHING because the Repubs are determined to stymie EVERYTHING is even more absurd than anything you accuse the Dems of, in my opinion.



If no one was going to abide by Obama's "kumbaya" moment, then he shouldn't have floated it out there in the first place. But I cannot disagree with your comeback about Repubs actions.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:29 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Frem, I learned long ago that they count each letter and call as X number of constituents who feel the same but didn't bother. I don't know how much power you have outside calling and writing, and that certainly you should hold for something you feel important enough. But an e-mail or call takes minimum time and effort, and counts as more people than just you, so why not?


Of course, although I prefer snail-mail, since it tends to have a little more impact since you bothered that much, and it's been my habit since the days of yore when I would bash out letters to the editor and occasional editorials on this puny little manual typewriter originally intended as a toy, and then upgraded to what was my primary weapon in the pre-internet days...

One can only imagine the consternation of some of those editors if they had ever realized the writer of many of those excellent arguments and editorials wasn't old enough to drive.


But yeah, there's a little more arm-twisting I can do on locals, both on a personal-persuasion level and by putting the arm on their campaign funding, Hokey has a security issue which has to be sorted before it can be addressed, while I am all for sunlight and busting chops for abuses by our intel folk, often to a harsh degree, there's some stuff that does *need* to be kept quiet to protect assets in place and he's got a thorny problem of trying to figure out a way to bust some chops without leaving folk trying to do the job right hanging out to dry - plus he's a partisan little prick, so there's that problem too.

Conyers is a gutless fucking pansy, his wife is the one with any balls, and when SHE stood up to the Bush administration it cost the lady her own political career, while her husband was practically hiding under the judiciary committee table with his eyes shut, and fingers jammed in his ears hoping it would all just go away...
So he's completely fuckin useless, and should be voted out posthaste, only given the recent history, folks in his district will take even him over touching the toxic hell of the red lever at the polls, yanno ?

Dingbat is pretty cool though, he's a blue collar attitude kinda guy, and will at least listen, especially if you catch him at a good time, or even help MAKE time by handling a matter he would otherwise have to address, and he's well aware that he has to answer to his constituents, which does cause a bit of an issue when what his constituents WANT is something against their own interests and you're tryin to argue that with him - but him I can take, since he actually does feel the need to answer to em at all, yanno ?

It's little enough, and not a one of em (wisely so!) trusts me as far as they could shotput me, but having been "right" enough of the time, even on the longshots, they'll at least LISTEN to me.

Pretty sure Dingbat will play ball on the public option, Hokey is a tossup, and Conyers will as usual hop on command for money, and the insurance bastards got more than we do, so don't expect him to find any balls now.

-F

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:40 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Jong

I have an idea I've been noodling around in my head. I haven't concluded anything yet, not having thought about it to see exactly how this might work, or tested it sufficiently to decide - but I'll put it out there for your consideration.

Good EOs make the underlings do the dirty work while they themselves keep their hands clean, their options open, and their reputations spotless.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Jongstraw, to answer you, technically it shouldn't affect your company insurance policy. It sounds like you have maybe a state local insurance to me. The Bill has a lot of stuff about putting some kind of cap on payment for premiums and protecting the rates of buyers, and it's mostly targeted at big insurance companies. Unless you suspect your insurance provider is guilty of unethical conduct, you should be okay.

I like the public option, I just have questions about how well the government can implement it and how to pay for it.

And I'm wary, because it does seem like in expansion of government powers. What they're promising sounds too good to be true, so it probably is. I hope it's not, because people having trouble with insurance claims and people who can't afford insurance really do need something like this package. So I hope it passes. My concern is someone using this some way we don't expect, some new abuse or manipulation. I suppose if that's what happens, then I just have to hope there are smart people among the general public who can see through any subsequent lies.

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Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


JS, you're assuming. Looks to me more like Obama offered the summit, the Republicans made every excuse under the sun to diss it and probably wouldn't come anyway, Obama/Dems HOPEFULLY waking up to the realization that NOTHING will bring them around, and intending to take action on their own. The summit invitation went first; the Republican's reaction to it has been universal; only NOW are they looking at reconcilliation. Pretty clear chronology to me.

Maybe they should wait and hold the summit (you sure they're NOT?) first, just to show the American public how it really is (and I hope they do hold it, 'cuz the Republicans got no come-back and it'd be televised), but the writing has been on the wall for SO long, that the way the Repubs are reacting to the invitation kinda says it all!

Maybe he's/they're sick of looking like fools by trying to compromise with the un-compromisable. Or is that inconveivable to you?



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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Jong

I have an idea I've been noodling around in my head. I haven't concluded anything yet, not having thought about it to see exactly how this might work, or tested it sufficiently to decide - but I'll put it out there for your consideration.

Good EOs make the underlings do the dirty work while they themselves keep their hands clean, their options open, and their reputations spotless.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.


I'm one of those corporate underlings you refer to. Yes it does happen; I've been asked to do things I ethically object to in the past, but this is The President after all. If he sets an agenda, one would expect his Cabinet and major leaders of HIS Party to at least do a better job of "acting" like they're following his lead. Gibbs, et al. made no such attempts. It was as if Obama's words were completely ignored by his own people. But I'm not so naive to find it shocking, it's just a good example to use when others are called hypocrites for doing the opposite of what they say.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:39 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Jongstraw, to answer you, technically it shouldn't affect your company insurance policy. It sounds like you have maybe a state local insurance to me. The Bill has a lot of stuff about putting some kind of cap on payment for premiums and protecting the rates of buyers, and it's mostly targeted at big insurance companies. Unless you suspect your insurance provider is guilty of unethical conduct, you should be okay.

I like the public option, I just have questions about how well the government can implement it and how to pay for it.

And I'm wary, because it does seem like in expansion of government powers. What they're promising sounds too good to be true, so it probably is. I hope it's not, because people having trouble with insurance claims and people who can't afford insurance really do need something like this package. So I hope it passes. My concern is someone using this some way we don't expect, some new abuse or manipulation. I suppose if that's what happens, then I just have to hope there are smart people among the general public who can see through any subsequent lies.


Thanks for your explanation. Personally, I oppose any further Govt. expansion into any aspects of our lives.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
JS, you're assuming. Looks to me more like Obama offered the summit, the Republicans made every excuse under the sun to diss it and probably wouldn't come anyway, Obama/Dems HOPEFULLY waking up to the realization that NOTHING will bring them around, and intending to take action on their own. The summit invitation went first; the Republican's reaction to it has been universal; only NOW are they looking at reconcilliation. Pretty clear chronology to me.

Maybe they should wait and hold the summit (you sure they're NOT?) first, just to show the American public how it really is (and I hope they do hold it, 'cuz the Republicans got no come-back and it'd be televised), but the writing has been on the wall for SO long, that the way the Repubs are reacting to the invitation kinda says it all!

Maybe he's/they're sick of looking like fools by trying to compromise with the un-compromisable. Or is that inconveivable to you?


There was an initial attempt a year ago when Dems and Repubs did get together to discuss Healthcare reform. Apparently that meeting didn't go too well, and for the next year Republicans were never once part of any meeting on the subject, never involved in any Reid-Pelosi dealings at all. Pelosi was able to easily pass her version of it without any Repub input, but Reid had to bribe a few his own Dem Senators to get his version passed, again w/o any Repub involvement. This was all going on before and after Obama himself cut sweetheart deals with Doctors, Pharma, and Unions to move it along. That's at least the way I understand it generally occurred. So please excuse me if I think the whole thing stinks like an angry squirting skunk. I think they should do the Summit, and put it all on TV...let the people see how both sides behave when they're in front of the public. Regardless, I do expect that Dems will use whatever technique thay can to pass a bill without Republican input. That will be key in the November elections.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I think, if given time, any health care reform measure the Dems manage to pass, any way they can, will end up being something the people want ot keep (and/or revise down the line). I just don't think it can be put into practice long enough for the 2010.

I see no indication the summit has been cancelled; it's scheduled for Feb. 25, and I see no reason Obama would cancel it, if for no other reason than to televise it and see what the Repubs do in front of cameras.
Quote:

The White House signaled Thursday that an aggressive, all-Democratic strategy for overhauling the nation's health care system remains a serious option, even as President Barack Obama invites Republicans to next week's televised summit to seek possible compromises.

http://www.startribune.com/business/84710562.html

I see it as perhaps a move to push the Republicans into attending the summit, with the knowledge that if they don't, the Dems will try to pass it via reconciliation, which means pulling out a lot of the compromises they made to attempt to get Republican votes--so it would be a worse bill for the Republicans (including a possible public option) than what they have now. Nobody likes or wants reconciliation, but if the Republicans absolutely refuse to attend the summit, the Dems can move ahead quickly that way.

Given Behner's remarks about the summit, wanting the current bill killed, a promise of no reconciliation, and his stated "I don't know what the size of the room will be, who will be there...", it seems obvious to me they're backpeddaling as fast as they can.

As to the makeup of the health care reform bill, JS, they DID incorporate the Republicans' ideas almost entirely:
Quote:

(1) "Let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines." This is a long-running debate between liberals and conservatives. Currently, states regulate insurers. Liberals feel that's too weak and allows for too much variation, and they want federal regulation of insurers. Conservatives feel that states over-regulate insurers, and they want insurers to be able to cluster in the state with the least regulation and offer policies nationwide, much as credit card companies do today.

To the surprise and dismay of many liberals, the Senate health-care bill included a compromise with the conservative vision for insurance regulation. The relevant policy is in Section 1333, which allows the formation of interstate compacts. Under this provision, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Utah, and Idaho (for instance) could agree to allow insurers based in any of those states to sell plans in all of them. This prevents a race to the bottom, as Idaho has to be comfortable with Arizona's regulations, and the policies have to have a minimum level of benefits (something that even Rep. Paul Ryan believes), but it's a lot closer to the conservative ideal.

(2) "Allow individuals, small businesses, and trade associations to pool together and acquire health insurance at lower prices, the same way large corporations and labor unions do." This is the very purpose of the exchanges, as defined in Section 1312. Insurers are required to pool the risk of all the small businesses and individuals in the new markets rather than treating them as small, single units. That gives the newly pooled consumers bargaining power akin to that of a massive corporation or labor union, just as conservatives want. It also gives insurers reason to compete aggressively for their business, which is key to the conservative vision. Finally, empowering the exchanges to use prudential purchasing maximizes the power and leverage that consumers will now enjoy.

(3) "Give states the tools to create their own innovative reforms that lower health care costs." Section 1302 of the Senate bill does this directly. The provision is entitled "the Waiver for State Innovation," and it gives states the power to junk the whole of the health-care plan -- that means the individual mandate, the Medicaid expansion, all of it -- if they can do it better and cheaper.

(4) "End junk lawsuits." It's not entirely clear what this means, as most malpractice lawsuits actually aren't junk lawsuits. The evidence on this is pretty clear: The malpractice problem is on operating tables, not in court rooms. Which isn't to deny that our current system is broken for patients and doctors alike. The Senate bill proposes to deal with this in Section 6801, which encourages states to develop new malpractice systems and suggests that Congress fund the most promising experiments. This compromise makes a lot of sense given the GOP's already-expressed preference for letting states "create their own innovative reforms that lower health care costs," but since what the Republicans actually want is a national system capping damages, I can see how this compromise wouldn't be to their liking.

(5) To stop there, however, does the conservative vision a disservice. The solutions the GOP has on its Web site are not solutions at all, because Republicans don't want to be in the position of offering an alternative bill. But when Republicans are feeling bolder -- as they were in Bush's 2007 State of the Union, or John McCain's plan -- they generally take aim at one of the worst distortions in the health-care market: The tax break for employer-sponsored insurance. Bush capped it. McCain repealed it altogether. Democrats usually reject, and attack, both approaches.

Not this year, though. Senate Democrats initially attempted to cap the exclusion, which is what Bush proposed in 2007. There was no Republican support for the move, and Democrats backed off from the proposal. They quickly replaced it, however, with the excise tax, which does virtually the same thing. The excise tax only applies to employer-sponsored insurance above a certain price point, and it essentially erases the preferential tax treatment for every dollar above its threshold.

(6) And finally, we shouldn't forget the compromises that have been the most painful for Democrats, and the most substantive. This is a private-market plan. Not only is single-payer off the table, but at this point, so too is the public option. The thing that liberals want most in the world has been compromised away.

On Sunday, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell responded to Barack Obama's summit invitation by demanding Obama scrap the health-care reform bill entirely. This is the context for that demand. What they want isn't a bill that incorporates their ideas. They've already got that. What they want is no bill at all. And that's a hard position for the White House to compromise with. Whether done behind closed doors or not, the fact is that the GOP's "Solutions for America" homepage (found at http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare), which lays out its health-care plan in some detail. It has four planks. All of them are incorporated in the Dem's bill.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_i
n_health_car.html


There are other things, and I haven't read in detail about those to see if they are included, but that's a basis for arguing that, however they did it, the Dems DID include Republican demands.

The basic fact is that over and over it's been proven that things the Republicans wanted, agreed with, or even co-sponsored have then been rejected out of hand by them once the Dems agreed with them. That and the fact that their own proposed points WERE included in the bill pretty much says it all for me.

As to the summit itself, I see no indication it's been cancelled:
Quote:

On the eve of next week's televised healthcare summit, President Obama and Democrats have no choice except to press ahead on reform, said Democratic pollster Stanley Greenberg Wednesday at a Monitor breakfast.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2010/0217/Demo
cratic-pollster-Stanley-Greenberg-Health-reform-isn-t-dead


I don't believe Obama will scrap the summit unless the Repubs refuse to attend; the Dems have nothing to lose in holding it and making it public (given the public doesn't really understand its contents); the Republicans can end up looking like fools if it's televised and people see the truth.

Sorry it's so long, but I wanted to give you all the facts I could find.



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Friday, February 19, 2010 8:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm not responding to the other thread on health care reform that was bumped because I believe, with the idea of the summit and reconciliation, I think it's a new discussion.

As for the things the Republicans want included, I'll just quote Mike from the other thread,
Quote:

A lot is being made of "portability" by those on the right, and I know what they're getting at. They SAY they want you to be able to carry your coverage across state lines if you move for a better job, or whatever (which seems a laudable goal); what they MEAN, though, is that this portability would mean that insurance would only have to be as good as that in the states with the WORST insurance plans, and that you (as another state) couldn't require MORE than that, because it would be unfair. That's why conservatives keep bringing up portability, and what they mean when they talk about it.

So address portability, by all means. But let's step around the issue of that idea that insurance in all states must match that of the LEAST states. Hell, we can write it so that it must match that of the BEST states, if we wanted to. Hawaiian-style insurance reform, anyone? :)

And "tort reform"... The amount of money that's eaten up by tort lawsuits is on the order of 2 to 3 percent of their profits. So when the conservatives start saying that the solution to healthcare reform is tort reform, just remember their reaction to Obama telling us all to save gas by checking our tires. If you thought his suggestion was ridiculous, you should think theirs is, too.

Would Iike to see SOME kind of tort reform? Sure; wouldn't everybody? But they keep talking numbers like $100,000 lifetime payout for extreme malpractice events like taking off the wrong leg (and then having to take the other one, too, because it had to come off to begin with). And they want this tort reform to apply to EVERYTHING, across the board, it seems. That means Ford's Pinto debacle would have had a maximum payout of $100,000 for killing people with a design they KNEW to be faulty and dangerous. Hell, no wonder greed-heads want that kind of reform. It would leave them all but immune to ever having to pay for their fuck-ups.

I think virtually everything the Repubs have 'offered' has been a ruse to create "gimmes" for the insurance lobby, just like these two. Nonetheless, we'll see what, if anything, the summit provides...



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Friday, February 19, 2010 1:32 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As of last night, the count was up to EIGHTEEN Democrats in favor of reconciliation. Anyone know the total now? Could it be a movement??

And now, "for our next act", the Repubs might have found a way to block reconciliation!
Quote:

As it turns out, Senate Democrats may not be able to force healthcare legislation through the chamber on a simple majority vote.

Republicans say they have found a loophole in the budget reconciliation process that could allow them to offer an indefinite number of amendments.

Though it has never been done, Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) says he’s prepared to test the Senate’s stamina to block the Democrats from using the process to expedite changes to the healthcare bill.

Experts on Senate procedural rules, from both parties, note that such a filibuster is possible. While reconciliation rules limit debate to 20 hours, senators lack similiarconstraints on amendments and could conceivably continue offering them until 60 members agree to cut the process off.

Another option for Democrats would be to seek a ruling by the parliamentarian that Republicans are simply filing amendments to stall the process. But such a ruling could taint the final healthcare vote and backfire for Democrats in November.

Or Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) could use a tactic similar to the so-called nuclear option to quash the GOP tactics.

If those options failed, and Reid couldn’t convince a single Republican to vote with his 59-member conference, Democrats might be forced to consider withdrawing the healthcare bill.

A Democratic leadership aide confirmed to The Hill that the options outlined in this articlee are correct.

House Democrats have said they would not pass the Senate healthcare bill unless changes are made through reconciliation, which is necessary because Republicans control 41 Senate seats, enough to block legislation through the regular process.

But Republicans may end up having that power even under reconciliation.

“You could keep offering amendments until you don’t have any more to offer,” said a congressional aide, who said he did not know how long senators would be willing to stay in the chamber to move the reconciliation package. “What the body’s tolerance would be is unknown.”

A former Senate Republican leadership aide said: “The limit is on debate, not on consideration of amendments.”

DeMint said he’s ready to try anything.

“You’ll see Republicans do everything they can to delay and stop this process,” DeMint said. “They need to get the message the track they’re on is the wrong track.”

Reid spent significant time last year in close study of the Senate rules for fast-tracking healthcare legislation under special budget rules.

Reid stayed away from the special process of passing healthcare reform with only 51 votes because he knew it would be messy.

But since Republicans won a Senate seat in Massachusetts, thereby stripping Democrats of a filibuster-proof majority, it appears Democrats will need to invoke those rules to make crucial changes to healthcare legislation.

DeMint said that using reconciliation rules to pass the House-requested changes to the Senate healthcare bill with only 51 votes is “tyrannical.”

“I think you’ll see us offering amendments to get us into November, if we can,” said DeMint.

Sen. Judd Gregg (N.H.), the ranking Republican on the Budget Committee, said: “You could continue to offer amendments, I suspect.

“You can offer an unlimited number of amendments on the budget after time is elapsed so it’s logical that you could also do it on reconciliation,” Gregg said.

Democrats could try to persuade Republican colleagues to back down and withdraw their amendments after several hours or days of voting. With a unified Democratic conference, Reid would need just one GOP senator to cut off the process.

The most likely candidate would be Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), who voted with Democrats to advance the Senate Finance Committee bill but has since opposed the healthcare measure on the Senate floor.

Reid or another Democrat could make a point of order that using amendments to stall a reconciliation bill violates the spirit of the Budget Act of 1974, which sets up for expedited consideration of budget-related bills.

Reid or another Democrat could argue that offering unlimited amendments violates the spirit of limiting debate.

The parliamentarian has ruled that the limit on debate does not allow senators to filibuster the motion to proceed to a reconciliation bill. The parliamentarian could rule that the same concept applies to amendments.

No one really knows, because a lawmaker has never tried to use amendments to filibuster a reconciliation package.

“We haven’t ever tried it before,” said a congressional aide.

Parliamentarian Alan Frumin could rule Republican amendments after a certain number out of order. But he could also allow the GOP amendments, since they are not expressly barred.

If Frumin ruled with Republicans, Reid would be in a difficult position. He could either pull the bill off the floor or he could appeal the ruling of the parliamentarian.

With a simple majority of 51 votes, Reid could overturn the ruling of the chair and set a Senate precedent that amendments must be limited to within reason. This tactic would be similar to the so-called nuclear option Senate Republicans considered using in 2005 to overrule Democratic filibusters of judicial nominees.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/79423-gop-finds-loophole-in-reconci
liation-ploy


"Never give up, never surrender!" That's our government at work...or not!



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Friday, February 19, 2010 2:04 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"by Grabthar's hammer... by the Sons of Warvan... you shall be... avenged"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, both Dingell and Conyers announced plans to run for re-election, I'll back dingbat, but I want that gutless pansy Conyers *gone*, not that he has much competition, cause folks in his district would rather have him even knowing that, than some foaming rabid mouth breather republican, which is all we seem to get around here.

And speakin of such folk, Mitt Romney got his chops busted for being an ass earlier this week, apparently he took issue with the less than clean cut fellow in front of him on a flight, and verbally harrassed him a bit, then put his hand on the guy, only to get it slapped off and told "Get yo fuckin hands off me!"

And yet, the friggin feds came and tossed that passenger off the plane, way to GO assholes, like you ain't in deep *enough* shit with this state as it is ?
(Said passenger happens to be Sky Blu, local rapper and nephew of a motown star who's name escapes me at the moment)

So being a clean cut looking dick allows you to harrass rough looking people at whim, eh ?

Seriously, people are practically measuring ropes, and I am startin to get concerned about how bad that powderkeg is gonna go if the badge boys keep friggin pushin people around here...

Doesn't do a lotta good for Romney's image, such as it is, neither - but then everybody knows he's a dick.

-F

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


We NEED a big... and I mean BIG, rowdy... DC demonstration on "PASS THE DAMN THING!"

BIG

AND we need wall-to-wall media coverage.

And then we need another.

And another.

Do progressives have the guts to do it????

I mean... shit, man... if you can get a flashmob to walk invisible dogs, SURELY this would be an easy thing!!!

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ain't about guts, Siggy, it's about access.

First you'd have to get the coverage, which means either gaming the system with tricks like the one I suggested to the G20 morons (that being set the protest up in one place, and then actually HAVE it somewhere else) or you'd have to go pirate and either seize the airwaves or overpower them with a pirate transmitter, cause otherwise you ain't gettin shit but a few carefully selected bits (or even Faux News stock-footage fakery) to make you look like a tiny group of losers starting trouble.

And then there's the problem of the "Miami Model" and not just the rabid jackboot badge bearers, but all those active duty punks from the dirty 3rd who've been training just for the event of putting some of those dirty-commie-terrorist-sympathizer-civvies "in their place", and have all the gear one could want that they're just ITCHING to use...
(support the troops ? FUCK the troops, when they consider their protectees the enemy, they're the bad guys!)

I mean, really... how far are you willing to go ?

When the cops/troops finally call for, and GET, authorisation to load live ammo in the interests of "national security" by qualifying your protest as a civil insurrection...

THEN WHAT ?

Remember you're playin up against folks who only obey the rules when the rules are on THEIR side, and discard em when they become problematic, who see us as nothing more than trained draft animals pulling the cart, folks who CAN and WILL take it that far, secure in the knowledge that they will absolutely win an engagement like that.

So, how far are you prepared to take it ?

Me, I suggest nothing of the sort, taking to the streets with signs like that, you might as well just paint a bullseye, here I am, please ignore me, big media, please beat me half to death, law enforcement - it's ASKIN for it.

No, you don't play by *their* rules, you play from the bottom of the deck, for example, and you only need maybe thirty people for this one, stage a pacifist ambush on your congresscritter, swarm and physically encircle them and refuse to budge for a little while, bribe some security and nail a couple of these jerks with pies, hack their websites and stick a short statement on a sidebar, show them that you mean business without ACTUALLY offering threat directly, but in a way that makes it abundantly clear that you've CHOSEN to be polite, and it don't have to stay that way.

There's plenty of ways to get it done without handing your balls over on a platter to be crushed, the "need" to take to the streets with signs is as much a trap as the "need" to take out an auto loan - why buy into what you oughta KNOW is a trap ?

-F

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, Frem, I tend to disagree. I'm with Sig on this one; a huge, PEACEFUL demonstration, especially if the placards and signs are SENSIBLE, rather than outrageous bullcrap like the Tea Partiers showed, WOULD have a positive outcome I think. Police aren't just thugs, and as you can see, they haven't bothered the Tea Party protests much, if at all.

The time of Dumbya's dictatorship over protests is gone; it may resurge, it may come back under another Prez, but Obama's appears determined to allow any protest, given the ugly ones against HIM.

I think it would get media coverage, too. Everyone knows the people are in favor of a public option in good numbers, and have been from the start. An outcry by a big crowd would be noticed and covered, in my opinion.

By the way, last night it was up to 20. GO guys! Make a bandwagon big enough that to NOT jump on it makes any Senator who chooses not to look like shit.

Of course, then you have to deal with the Repubs latest ploy, and whatever else they come up with after THAT...

But as for protest and coverage, I think in some cases public support is more logical than underground tactics, and I think this is such a case.



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Saturday, February 20, 2010 3:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA



To quote John Delancy...*
(the guy who plays Q on Star Trek)

"Oh pish, why decide, why not take both, hmm?"

Y'all work one end, we work the other, cause you just can't have too light a squeeze on a politician!

FYI, I *did* tell you I would turn two of those votes before... well I lucked out and got more than two.

-Frem
PS. That was a great little moment at a sci-fi con, my buddy Donnie was lookin at trek memorabilia cause his mom wanted a plate for her collection, and he was standing there wavering back and forth between two of em he really liked, unable to decide and able to afford only one.

Delancy snuck up behind us, said that in his best sly-snarky "Q" voice, then yoinked both plates off the shelf, stuffed em in Dons hands and called it on his own tab before wandering off more or less laughing up his sleeve at the expression on donnies face.

He's a great guy, and yes, to a degree he really DOES act a like Q even offstage... heh heh heh.

There always has to be a price.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem: Deal.

As to Delancy, yeah, I knew the name immediately. Loved what he did on Trek, a real character, and yes, it's obvious he's like that in real life; you can't be that good at what he did and NOT be!

I'm not ready to give up yet, tho'; I dunno what the count is up to--does anyone else? I tend not to watch news on the weekends (too many better things on sci fi channel!)



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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Stumbled across this earlier, some nicely wacky protest ideas which were pretty cool, so I figure I'll share.
http://trueslant.com/allisonkilkenny/2010/02/16/creative-political-pro
test-done-right
/

The Dairy Farmers and Phelps Bashers had me rolling out of the chair, and according to the Bugs Bunny Theorem of political influence, if you can make them laugh, you can make them listen.



-F

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Monday, February 22, 2010 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

if you can make them laugh, you can make them listen
Sometimes, as well, if you can make them laugh, you might make a few of them THINK (a la Jon Stewart and many stand-up comedians, eh?)



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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's up to 22...

Dunno if this is a ploy to put pressure on the Repubs before the summit Friday, or a serious move. Wish it were a serious move.

On the other hand, Obama's 11-page "health insurance reform plan" has no public option; they're saying they can do it later on. Sigh....

At 11 pages, as compared to the stack of each of the House and Senate bills, I'd like to read it; wouldn't it be nice if it did away with all the ridiculous legalese and was worth something?



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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And now, Obama's OFFICIALLY a doodoo-head in my book.

The only way I can explain his egregious back-pedaling? He made yet another backroom deal... this time with the private health insurances.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Uh oh.


NOW what ?


***************************************************************

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Never mind. It's to some extent what's in it (oh, let's just use government help for Americans to send their money to insurers) and what's not in it (drug price negotiations).

I wonder who leaned on him ?

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I wonder who leaned on him ?
THE SHORT LIST:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THE LONG LIST:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:46 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Speakin of wacky protests...

It's snow joke: Snowmen protest Mich. tax increase
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010
022305517.html


Yeahhh, try tasing THOSE guys, ehe ?

I wonder if I could get a bargain on mannequins around here this spring.....

-F

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 7:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


23 and counting as of last night. Another said he will sign it (but hasn't yet), and yet another said once he's read the language, he may sign.

Little by little. Wonder what happens after tomorrow's "summit"? Think if it's the farce we expect it to be, that more will come on board??

Hey, I'm allowed to dream!

Oh, for a public option. It, more than anything else, would solve so many problems with so much less regulation...just the competition alone...

I know: Dream on, Leon...



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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


/THREADJACK

JOIN TODAY'S VIRTUAL MARCH!

TELL YOUR FRIENDS!

FACEBOOK, MYSPACE, AND TWEET!

http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch10/action.html?rc=homepage

(Will restore thread title tomorrow.)

/THREADJACK

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
/THREADJACK

JOIN TODAY'S VIRTUAL MARCH!

TELL YOUR FRIENDS!

FACEBOOK, MYSPACE, AND TWEET!

http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch10/action.html?rc=homepage

(Will restore thread title tomorrow.)

/THREADJACK




Done!

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

(Will restore thread title tomorrow.)


Please DON'T Sig!! Keep it up there--the more of us they hear from, the better. Am calling now; getting a busy signal, but I'm like a dog with a bone: THEY NEED TO HEAR FROM US!!!



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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:03 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Keep it going or start a new thread.

My comment:

America can do better! Big Insurance is ROBBING US!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Started a new thread, as you might have seen. Thank you, Sig...GREAT idea!



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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


reposted for latecomers

/THREADJACK

JOIN TODAY'S VIRTUAL MARCH!

TELL YOUR FRIENDS!

FACEBOOK, MYSPACE, AND TWEET!

http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch10/action.html?rc=homepage

(Will restore thread title tomorrow.)

/THREADJACK

***************************************************************

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


reposted for latecomers

/THREADJACK

JOIN TODAY'S VIRTUAL MARCH!

TELL YOUR FRIENDS!

FACEBOOK, MYSPACE, AND TWEET!

http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch10/action.html?rc=homepage

(Will restore thread title tomorrow.)

/THREADJACK

***************************************************************

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!



http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch10/action.html

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Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Sun, April 28, 2024 16:06 - 6316 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Sun, April 28, 2024 15:47 - 3576 posts
Elections; 2024
Sun, April 28, 2024 15:39 - 2314 posts
Scientific American Claims It Is "Misinformation" That There Are Just Two Sexes
Sun, April 28, 2024 12:35 - 23 posts
Dangerous Rhetoric coming from our so-called President
Sun, April 28, 2024 07:30 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Sun, April 28, 2024 02:03 - 1016 posts
The Thread of Court Cases Trump Is Winning
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:37 - 20 posts
Case against Sidney Powell, 2020 case lawyer, is dismissed
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:29 - 13 posts
I'm surprised there's not an inflation thread yet
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:28 - 745 posts
Slate: I Changed My Mind About Kids and Phones. I Hope Everyone Else Does, Too.
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:19 - 3 posts
14 Tips To Reduce Tears and Remove Smells When Cutting Onions
Sat, April 27, 2024 21:08 - 9 posts
Russian War Crimes In Ukraine
Sat, April 27, 2024 19:27 - 15 posts

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