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The new documents make plain that interrogators using the new harsh techniques, including waterboarding, were pushing their subjects for information that would justify the Iraq War. For instance, Major Paul Burney, a medical professional attached to interrogation efforts at Guantánamo, told investigators that “we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link… there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.” Numerous other sources involved in the interrogation effort recorded the same intense pressure to secure “results” that would justify a decision that had already been taken in Washington to invade Iraq.

In the end, Secretary of State Colin Powell was sent to the United Nations to make the case for an invasion of Iraq. The crown jewel of his evidentiary case turned on claims supplied by Ibn al-Shaykh Al-Libi that Saddam Hussein had trained Al Qaeda operatives in the use of chemical weapons. Al-Libi had been tortured using the new techniques to secure this evidence. It was subsequently determined to be false—offered up by Al-Libi to escape the torments to which he was subjected with the full understanding that this was what his interrogators wanted to hear.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- AURaptor

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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If you're going to quote me in your sig, at least get my name right.

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But then, you've shown your sympathies to their cause.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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But then, you've shown your sympathies to their cause.

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I'm not the one advocating torture.If anyone is sympathetic to their cause its you. The thing you can't seem to get is that torture is torture. When you stoop to torturing someone- ANYONE- it puts you on par with anyone else who tortures. On par with Sheik Issa, Saddam Hussein, or anyone else.

WE follow the rules because that's what WE do. That's what makes America a great country.

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Yep.

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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

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Or we could have just hacked his head off with a dull knife, and posted video of it on the web...

Yeah, Rappy, you're SOOOOOOO much better than the terrorists.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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But then, you've shown your sympathies to their cause.

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I'm not the one advocating torture.If anyone is sympathetic to their cause its you. The thing you can't seem to get is that torture is torture. When you stoop to torturing someone- ANYONE- it puts you on par with anyone else who tortures. On par with Sheik Issa, Saddam Hussein, or anyone else.

WE follow the rules because that's what WE do. That's what makes America a great country.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
JONGSSTRAW: there is no converting a REAL terrorist. It makes not a whit of difference to them whether we torture or not. When we torture it's not a recruiting tool, and if we don't it doesn't take that tool away. But it should make a difference to us, and that's what makes us different from them. Anthony had a very pointed question about torture which I haven't participated in lately but have thought a lot about.

From a practical standpoint, we also snatched up a lot of innocents and turned THEM into ticking time-bombs that we don't know what the hell to do with.


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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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We interrogated to make sure we could invade Iraq

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Sig, you probably believe there was a shooter in the grassy knoll, we faked the moon landings, the loch ness monster, and anyone who told you " I'll call you " after a one night stand.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
We interrogate to make sure we don't have another 9/11 style attack. And it's worked.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Terrorism is a relatively recent phenomenon,

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
That's such a load of crap, and completely worthless to the friends and family of those who died on 9/11. We interrogate to make sure we don't have another 9/11 style attack. And it's worked. Where some have gotten out of hand, taken things too far, we punish and throw in jail. When's the last time anyone in al Qaeda or like groups had to punish one of their own for improperly slicing up one of THEIR captives? You think they have a lawyer and a team of doctors on site, watching every damn move, making sure no lines get crossed ? For you to suggest that we're no better than them is a true sign of just how utterly deluded and disconnected w/ the real world you really are.

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And of course you forgot about FREEDOM, when it comes to what makes this country so great. Sure, there are rules, there is the law, but there's also the freedom which draws people to here from all across the globe.

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I'd like to read a report someday of how we tried extreme kindness and thoughtful conversation to convert a terrorist back to humanity. All captured fighters on any side are already going to be somewhat scared shitless by the unkown factor of what their captors are going to do to them. If you grab them, strip them, humiliate them, sic growling dogs on them, play ridiculous stress position games with them, and then even waterbaord them, what the hell do ya think yer gonna get out of all that? Just one more-hardened fanatic who now has a real and tangible reason to want to kill you. Imagine the surprise and shock that same person might feel if they were treated with real respect, generosity, and human dignity. Over a short time, it's possible this former monster could be changed to the good, and work with us to fight his former allies.

I once saw a program on History Channel about the Waffen SS. The SS in general has quite a vile and horrendous legacy of their actions during WWII, however not all of the SS were sadistic murderers. There was a story told by a British officer who told how his regiment was pinned down and then overrun by SS soldiers. When captured the SS General told the Brits "that for them the war was over." The British officer said that the SS troops could have shot them all on the battlefield under the rules of war, and they were stunned by the respect and dignity that the SS showed them.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Terrorism is a relatively recent phenomenon,

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Jong, please wait for the hallucinogen to wear off before posting, please.

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Sicarii Zealots (1st century CE)

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With our support, they could play an influential role in reversing the stream of Muslims into terrorism.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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With our support, they could play an influential role in reversing the stream of Muslims into terrorism.

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I remember having that conversation with ya, way back when, Jong...

As it stands, too many nutters like Rappy pissing in the pond and undoing any attempt to reconcile, cause one misplaced artillery shell can instantly undo even years of positive influence - a father cradling a mangled child isn't exactly the most forgiving of folk, you understand...

That said, some of us ARE trying to make a positive impact by empowering and educating the women over there, cause muchlike a battered wife here, first they gotta build the self-reliance and confidence to make a stand in the first place, which is what RAWA is trying to do.

I just wish to hell we hadn't lost two of the best english translators among them due to american bombs and "collateral damage" - I've been feeding them office and photographic equipment as fast as I can get my hands on it.
http://www.rawa.org/
http://www.rawa.org/help.htm

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