REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Worst Recession in 50 Years

POSTED BY: SIMONWHO
UPDATED: Thursday, April 30, 2009 07:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2220
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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:58 AM

SIMONWHO


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aeLS30YslYd8&refer
=home


Congratulations to Bush & The Republican Party. Quite some achievement.


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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:11 AM

FIVVER


Oh, they had lots of help.



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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aeLS30YslYd8&refer
=home


Congratulations to Bush & The Republican Party. Quite some achievement.




Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are to blame, more than any other.

Thanks to the Democrats who screwed the country after M. Pelosi rode into town and set up shop.




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rap

"Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are to blame, more than any other.
Thanks to the Democrats who screwed the country after M. Pelosi rode into town and set up shop."

This is why people have written you off as a nut-job.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:36 AM

SERGEANTX


Much like the 9/11 attacks, the real damage is coming in our response to the problem, and Republicans and Democrats are tag-teaming on that one.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Rap

"Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are to blame, more than any other.
Thanks to the Democrats who screwed the country after M. Pelosi rode into town and set up shop."

This is why people have written you off as a nut-job.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




Your ignorance isn't reason enough for me to stop stating the facts. I have dealt w/ young Earth Creationist , and they are absolutely no different from the likes of you. Herd mentality, blind faith in that which they have been told to believe, adherence to their ideology, far and above anything to do w/ the REAL world. You, as they , reject and vilify reality, for it threatens the very foundation on which you base your belief system.




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your ignorance isn't reason enough for me to stop stating the facts.



But clearly YOUR ignorance is more than reason enough for you to stop dealing with facts and retreat completely and fully into that walled-in little world inside your horribly damaged mind.


Quote:

I have dealt w/ young Earth Creationist...


Really? Which one did you deal with?

Quote:

...and they are absolutely no different from the likes of you. Herd mentality, blind faith in that which they have been told to believe, adherence to their ideology, far and above anything to do w/ the REAL world.


You mean the herd mentality and blind faith in ideology that lets you keep parroting the Republican party line? "We don't torture! SQUAAAAWWK! We don't torture! WMD! WMD! Off with their heads! Off with their heads! " Is that the "blind faith in what they have been told to believe" that you're referring to? Your own?

Quote:

You, as they , reject and vilify reality, for it threatens the very foundation on which you base your belief system.


That's a more a you thing than a Rue thing, Rappy.

Quote:


"Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are to blame, more than any other.



You've made this claim several times. You've never once backed it up with anything even remotely resembling evidence. You can't, because you don't have any - you're just repeating what you've been told to believe.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


kwickie

I've given you all the evidence you need, but your blind partisanship won't allow you to see any fault in the socialist regime running congress and now in the White House.




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:37 AM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
socialist regime


SQUAAAAAWWK!!!

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
socialist


SQUAAAAAWWK!!!



That's like calling someone a rapist and having some idiot reply

" squaaaaawwk!! "

Socialist are against personal freedom, and should scare the hell out of any THINKING individual.

"The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." - Adolph Hitler


"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993


"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." President Bill Clinton, 1993




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... and they are absolutely no different from the likes of you."

My 'likes' ? Is that another version of 'ilk' ? Is that b/c you can't actually address anything that me, myself and I have posted, so you have to go to derogatory generics ?

Anyway - I don't have a religion. Whether it is religion, or politics (like you), or economic systems (like you). I actually deal in facts.

And you - such a sad case, really. You have yet to show HOW it is that a minority politician in the US can control anything - anything at all, let alone the entire US economy.

MOST people here know enough, and are sane enough, to realize that the minority party (which incidentally also DOESN'T control the WH) has very little means to do anything.

But, if you want to continue to have your posts dismissed as being anything but irrelevant, if you want to keep digging yourself ever deeper into the whack-job hole you are so eager to inhabit, it's no skin off my nose. I'll just comment on what a fine job you're doing at it from time to time.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I already told you. Frank and the Dems blocked legislation in committees that would have added more sensible regulation over Fannie and Freddie. The proof is on YouTube, and in the Dems very own words. You don't even have to take my word for it, you can listen to them yourself.




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:53 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... blocked legislation in committees ..."

HOW did they do that ???
HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW ?

Got it ?

The majority committee members set the agenda, the majority members can vote bills out of committee into the Senate floor ALL ON THEIR OWN. They don't need minority members, and there's not a damn thing a minority members can do to stop them.

So, HOW were these bills blocked by the minority members ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


How ? Simple, by keeping it in committee. Man, you're stupid.

The GOP din't have so much of a majority that it could run the show w/ an iron fist, as the Dems are now doing.

But wait, there's more!

Quote:

In late 2004, the leadership of the Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA or Fannie Mae) was accused of having engaged in a series of questionable accounting practices that led to an overstatement of its earnings and an understatement of its risk. Although Fannie Mae’s top officers denied the accusations, a careful review by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission confirmed the allegations. Within a few weeks, Fannie Mae conceded the charges and its top officers were forced to resign. Any doubts about the seriousness of the company’s shaky finances were laid to rest on January 19, 2005, when Fannie Mae cut its dividend in half to bolster its cash reserves.

Since then, Congress has held a series of hearings on Fannie Mae’s predicament and how to reform it. In the last week of May 2005, the House Committee on Financial Services proposed a series of regulatory changes that it claims would rectify the problem. However, critics of the FNMA, many of its private-sector competitors, and White House officials con tend that these proposals are too timid and that the new regulatory environment would sustain the pow erful co-monopolistic position that it shares with the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC or Freddie Mac), which suffered its own accounting and ethical lapses in 2003.

A better and more effective alternative is to phase out their generous federal credit privileges, allowing these financial giants time to adjust to a more compet itive environment. To implement this orderly with drawal of federal support, Congress should:

Phase out Fannie Mae’s and Freddie Mac’s lines of credit with the U.S. Treasury over five years in annual increments of $500 million for each government-sponsored enterprise (GSE),
Eliminate immediately the Federal Reserve’s authority to buy their debt, and
Eliminate the GSEs’ exemption from state and local income taxes.
As the phaseout proceeds, Fannie Mae and Fred die Mac should:

Conduct an orderly reduction in their holdings of residential mortgages (the profits from these investments depend largely on their ability to borrow at subsidized rates) and
Concentrate their skilled workforces on secu ritizing residential mortgages in fair and open competition with the private sector.
These legislative changes would greatly reduce the risk to financial markets and taxpayer expo sure. They would also restore competition in resi dential mortgage markets while leaving the housing industry and homeownership opportuni ties unaffected.

Making the Most of the Opportunity

While Members of the 109th Congress are to be commended for taking on these two political pow erhouses, the legislative package reported out by the House Committee on Financial Services in late May 2005 (H.R. 1461) falls short of what is needed. It will do little to address the fundamental prob lems associated with these federally supported financial monopolies that provide limited benefit to the housing finance market or homeownership opportunities.

Notwithstanding press reports that the new leg islation would “create a new more powerful regula tor for financial services giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac,”[1] some GSE reform advocates and Bush Administration officials view it as too weak and contend that the new regulatory system is less restrictive than the current one.[2] In addition, the new proposal would require Fannie Mae and Fred die Mac to use 5 percent of their profits to fund “affordable” housing programs. This is a clumsy and costly effort to contrive a public purpose for these enterprises, which have long outlived any justification for the valuable privileges that they receive from the federal government.

The failure of Congress to address these broader issues stems from a flawed reform process that focused on Fannie Mae’s Enron-like behavior instead of the statutory privileges that have allowed it to amass enormous market power. Together, these two GSEs control half of the residential mort gage market, deterring competition and forcing the housing and housing finance markets to rely on two financially unstable co-monopolists. With such market power concentrated in the hands of only two companies, the stability of U.S. financial markets could be undermined by financial prob lems in just one of them. Of course, if a bailout ever becomes necessary, the taxpayers could end up paying the bill.

In recent years, there have been a number of pro posals to reform these GSEs. Some involve more regulation, others urge the creation of more GSEs to foster competition among government-subsidized entities, and still others would eliminate the statu tory privileges that tie the GSEs to the taxpayer.

New regulations have attracted the most sup port, but this could turn out to be a useless and counterproductive approach. If the GSEs provide little or no benefit to society—beyond enriching their leaders and the various contractors who serve them—there is little point in trying to limit their risk with regulations and expose the taxpayers to a costly bailout. The co-monopolists would likely survive and thrive under a regulatory solution that would preserve the unhealthy concentration of risk, privilege, and power in the two companies.

Both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have proven exceptionally adept at lobbying Congress to pre serve and enhance their privileges. Any effort that relies on new regulations will likely perpetuate the risk to the financial market and preserve their dom inant influence. Indeed, if Armando Falcon, direc tor of the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), had not courageously per sisted in exposing Fannie Mae’s suspect operations, often in the face of congressional hostility, former Fannie Mae President Franklin Raines would still have his job and Fannie Mae’s shaky finances and fabricated earnings would still be hidden.

Instead of adopting compromise regulations, the government should begin an orderly process of severing all ties with the GSEs. Their most valuable federal privileges are their $2.25 billion lines of credit (for a total of $4.5 billion) with the U.S. Trea sury and the Federal Reserve’s authority to buy their debt as part of its open market operations. These privileges allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to claim an implicit federal guarantee of their outstanding obligations, which in turn makes them a popular investment for many major institutions, pension funds, and even foreign central banks. By lowering their borrowing costs and giving them access to subsidized credit, this implicit guarantee has allowed them to outcompete their private-sec tor rivals and establish a monopoly presence in the financial markets.



"These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis," Rep. Barney Frank, now head of the House Banking Committee, said in 2003. "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." - Barney Frank




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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


As for Frank in 2003 :

"He has served on the committee since becoming a congressman in 1981 and became the ranking Democrat on the committee in 2003. He became chairman of the committee, now called the House Financial Services Committee, in 2007."


2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007 2007

Remember that. 2007. Three Years AFTER the committee was considering tighter regulations.


OOOOOOPS !!


And BTW - as MINORITY member of the MINORITY party in the commitee, he was not able to block the bill.



***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:09 PM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
socialist


SQUAAAAAWWK!!!



That's like calling someone a rapist and having some idiot reply

" squaaaaawwk!! "


Oh, well played! Yes, yes, because parroting the people who not only mislabel but misdefine socialism is exactly the same as saying someone is a rapist and being squawked at. And, for the record, if the talking heads started insisting there was some kind of 'rapist regime' and you started continually screaming about that? I'd still squawk at you, because you'd still be a parrot.

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Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


kwoockoo not posted in a bit? Gee, when he reads all that info that AuRaptor has again posted for the slow, before kwoockoo gets his blinders back on, his head is gonna explode. Not so fun to see what comes out, but interesting to see how much garbage he posts after facts are repeatedly thrust into his face. And just how much twisting he must do to rearrange AuRap's facts into the kwoockoo delusional mush.


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
socialist regime


SQUAAAAAWWK!!!


Are you still calling yourself a non-liberal, or non-socialist, or non-fascist, or non-Nazi, or conservative, or whatever it is you deluded yourself into thinking?

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
kwoockoo not posted in a bit? Gee, when he reads all that info that AuRaptor has again posted for the slow, before kwoockoo gets his blinders back on, his head is gonna explode. Not so fun to see what comes out, but interesting to see how much garbage he posts after facts are repeatedly thrust into his face. And just how much twisting he must do to rearrange AuRap's facts into the kwoockoo delusional mush.


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
socialist regime


SQUAAAAAWWK!!!


Are you still calling yourself a non-liberal, or non-socialist, or non-fascist, or non-Nazi, or conservative, or whatever it is you deluded yourself into thinking?






I'm sorry... did you say something, RapTurd?

You still haven't shown HOW Dodd and/or Frank were more powerful than the President, especially when that President had a rubber-stamp Congress in his pocket.

You keep making the claim, you keep posting the same tripe, but you can't make your case - which is, of course, because you have no case!

Are you still calling yourself non-torturing, or non-fascist, or non-Nazi, or "patriot", or whatever it is you deluded yourself into thinking?

And now JSF will go back to hiding in Rappy's sock drawer until Rappy feels the need to put his hand up JSF's ass once again...


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are to blame, more than any other.
I have repeatedly challenged you in thread after thread to come up with a shred of evidence as to how two OUT OF POWER DEMS could have created this fiasco in the EIGHT YEARS that Bush was in power. You quote opinion after opinion on the topic: Wall Street;s opinion, Bush's opinion, Frank's opinion... but you cannot show me a single committee memo, nor one threat of a fillibuster (in the Senate) to explain HOW these two Dems masterminded the fall of western civilization. What laws did they pass? What reform did they prevent? And most importantly- HOW did they do it? Because neither one of them had a majority in any of the committees, nor did they have the chair in any committees, nor did they have the majority in Congress, nor was there a DEM President.

No, the sad reality is that altho Congressional REPUBLICANS were in power, they either didn't think it was important enough to deal with or... more likely... they simply didn't want to pop the real estate bubble which was working so well for them by allowing them the fiction that the economy was ON FIRE! It was a fiction they were willing to ride. And so were you. But each time I challenge you, you slink out of the thread, only to reappear with the same idee fixe several threads later. And the funny thing is... by now everyone gets is but you!. All you're doing is discrediting the very ideas you seek to promote and painting yourself as one seriously out-of-touch dood. Are you TOTALLY incapable of learning?

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Let me help you out, rappy.

Many people held many opinions about Fannie and Freddie. Some people said they were doing just fine. Some people wanted to reform them. And some people wanted to do away with them entirely. Those who said that Fannie and Freddie were just fine were wrong... critically, seriously wrong. Fannie and Freddie, of course, sent lobbyists to push that viewpoint, and conducted a PR campaign. Nonetheless, a reform bill was written, and taken up by the Finance Committee.
Quote:

But the bill didn't become law, for a simple reason: Democrats opposed it on a party-line vote in the committee, signaling that this would be a partisan issue. Republicans, tied in knots by the tight Democratic opposition, couldn't even get the Senate to vote on the matter. What happened next was extraordinary. For the first time in history, a serious Fannie and Freddie reform bill was passed by the Senate Banking Committee. The bill gave a regulator power to crack down, and would have required the companies to eliminate their investments in risky assets... Wallison wrote at the time: ``It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.''
Republican party had the power to pass the legislation all on their own, IF they had a solid vote within their own party. Which apparently they didn't.

I can castigate Dems for their faulty position. If they had seriously looked into the issue the regulation might have passed. But it is not the DEM'S fault. THEY WERE NOT IN POWER AT THE TIME. If the Repubs had thought it important enough, and worth their while, they could have pushed it through. They didn't, and they didn't.

But even so, I'm not sure that stricter Fannie and Freddie regulation would have made much difference. Fannie and Freddie between the two of them only held about 15% of risky mortgages, which means that a full 85% were held directly by companies like Countrywide and banks like WAMU. In addition, all those off-book financial "products" like CDOs and CDSs, the loosening of capitalization requirements by the SEC etc simply made other financial institutions even MORE risky than Fannie and Freddie! In the end, like many large disasters, it required SEVERAL things to go wrong. And even if the financial sector had gone south, if government, consumers and businesses weren't so HIGHLY dependent on debt... if the wealth distribution hadn't been so HIGHLY skewed... the economy (Main Street) would have weathered the storm in better shape and our deficit would only be 5% of the GDP, not 12%.

It's very much like Jengo (Uno Stacko). There is a pile of pieces creating a tower. Each player pulls out a piece until the tower falls. Players.. corporate, Repubs and Dems... had been pulling our pieces for at least a decade. Well, the tower fell.

-----------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:09 AM

RIVERDANCER


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Are you still calling yourself a non-liberal, or non-socialist, or non-fascist, or non-Nazi, or conservative, or whatever it is you deluded yourself into thinking?


Actually, I've never said I wasn't a liberal. Others who argue against you have stated, quite factually, that they don't fall into the category of liberal, but some other category that also happens to disagree with you. It's interesting to me that you lump liberals, fascists, Nazis, and socialists all together as the same thing, when clearly they are not. Knowing that's how you think clears up a great deal to me.
Let me try to explain something to you:
The United States is a capitalist/socialist nation. Oh yes, it is. Our education system, by and large, is socialized. There's private school as well, but a large percentage of schools are government run and government funded through the use of taxes. This is a very simple and widely-known fact that you seem to overlook on a regular basis when you're bleating about the evils of socialism. (Not that I think the education system is perfect, but that's a different can of worms of another day.) Likewise, our transportation system is socialized, almost entirely. Roads are paid for by the government, through the use of taxes. Public transportation, by its very definition, is paid for largely by the city government, with a little help from those who actually use it in the form of a small fare. These are both prominent socialized aspects to the capitalist society. Now, it's definitely important to do it right, but socialized things are not inherently evil. Yet any time the concept of socialized medicine is even mentioned, there's this segment of the population that starts screaming like their feet are being tickled by the fires of hell. I don't understand this at all. You already live in a place where the socialized can coexist peacefully with other options, and by and large not interfere with your precious capitalist companies. So why are you screaming like this is some great and fearful unknown? And why do you think that you will not take any benefit from it yourself? Is it only us crazy liberals who will be allowed to take advantage of doctor visits paid for by the state? Regular free dental care? Available emergency care in all places for all persons? What, do you never get sick or have cavities or break your thumb trying to put up a shelf in your garage? Do you never have car accidents or children with a terrible fever? C'mon.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


RiverDancer, I think JSF has you confused with River6213. Or maybe he just has you confused with the voices in his head...

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And ya know, Rappy, I can just as easily PROVE that John McCain was responsible for the whole collapse.

After all, as late as September of 2008, while the economy was collapsing around his head, he said, and I quote:

Quote:

The fundamentals of our economy are strong.


Furthermore, just a few weeks prior to that, his campaign's senior economic advisor, some guy named Phil Gramm, had sad that we were absolutely NOT in a recession, but that we were just a bunch of whiners.

Those two events caused confidence to crumble, and those two events all by themselves caused the economy to hiccup, cough, choke, collapse, and turn blue.

Hey, it makes exactly as much sense and has exactly as much basis in fact as YOUR hypothesis...



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:26 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Are you still calling yourself a non-liberal, or non-socialist, or non-fascist, or non-Nazi, or conservative, or whatever it is you deluded yourself into thinking?


Actually, I've never said I wasn't a liberal. Others who argue against you have stated, quite factually, that they don't fall into the category of liberal, but some other category that also happens to disagree with you. It's interesting to me that you lump liberals, fascists, Nazis, and socialists all together as the same thing, when clearly they are not. Knowing that's how you think clears up a great deal to me.
Let me try to explain something to you:
The United States is a capitalist/socialist nation. Oh yes, it is. Our education system, by and large, is socialized. There's private school as well, but a large percentage of schools are government run and government funded through the use of taxes. This is a very simple and widely-known fact that you seem to overlook on a regular basis when you're bleating about the evils of socialism. (Not that I think the education system is perfect, but that's a different can of worms of another day.) Likewise, our transportation system is socialized, almost entirely. Roads are paid for by the government, through the use of taxes. Public transportation, by its very definition, is paid for largely by the city government, with a little help from those who actually use it in the form of a small fare. These are both prominent socialized aspects to the capitalist society. Now, it's definitely important to do it right, but socialized things are not inherently evil. Yet any time the concept of socialized medicine is even mentioned, there's this segment of the population that starts screaming like their feet are being tickled by the fires of hell. I don't understand this at all. You already live in a place where the socialized can coexist peacefully with other options, and by and large not interfere with your precious capitalist companies. So why are you screaming like this is some great and fearful unknown? And why do you think that you will not take any benefit from it yourself? Is it only us crazy liberals who will be allowed to take advantage of doctor visits paid for by the state? Regular free dental care? Available emergency care in all places for all persons? What, do you never get sick or have cavities or break your thumb trying to put up a shelf in your garage? Do you never have car accidents or children with a terrible fever? C'mon.



RiverDancer, that was beautiful. Thanks.


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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