The West Is at a Loss in Afghanistan by GinoBiffaroni

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The West Is at a Loss in Afghanistan

POSTED BY: GINOBIFFARONI
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 4, 2008 05:00
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Friday, October 17, 2008 5:13 PM

NATO PESSIMISM
The West Is at a Loss in Afghanistan

By Susanne Koelbl

More and more military and civilian leaders are voicing pessimism when it comes to the NATO mission in Afghanistan. As the fight continues, ideas for how to break through the ongoing stalemate are few. Some are beginning to think that victory -- for either side -- is impossible.

It is one of the last mild summer evenings in Kabul. A group of Western diplomats and military officials is meeting for a private dinner in one of the embassies in Wazir Akbar Khan, an upscale residential neighborhood. Almost all of the 12 envoys and generals represent countries that have troops stationed in southern Afghanistan and the mood is somber. "Nothing is moving forward anymore, and yet we are no longer able to extricate ourselves," one of the ambassadors says over dessert, a light apple pastry. He gives voice to that which many here are already thinking: "We are trapped."

PHOTO GALLERY: TROUBLES IN AFGHANISTAN

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Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (7 Photos)

If only that were the extent of it. The diplomats feel abandoned, a feeling that stems in part from attitudes toward their concerns at home. Conscious of domestic political sentiment, many Western governments have taken to disavowing and tuning out the unpleasant news from Afghanistan.

As such, it seemed almost treasonous when the outgoing supreme commander of the British contingent, General Mark Carleton-Smith, recently said unequivocally that the Taliban will never be defeated. A military victory over the Taliban was "neither feasible nor supportable," he told the Sunday Times. Carleton-Smith has lost 32 of his men in six months.

The commander's words were intended as a wake-up call for politicians at home, but the underlying meaning is this: The situation in Afghanistan is far more serious than you can imagine in your government offices. People are dying here every day. It's time for politicians to come up with a new plan.

'Doomed to Fail'

At almost the same time, a diplomatic briefing between the British ambassador in Kabul, a man known for his directness, and a French diplomat was leaked. Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles said the current situation in Afghanistan was "bad; the security situation is getting worse -- so is corruption -- and the government (of President Hamid Karzai) has lost all trust." The American strategy, he said, "is doomed to fail."

Internally, US intelligence agents have arrived at a similar assessment. In the most thorough analysis of the war in Afghanistan to date, the National Intelligence Estimate, which is to be released after the US presidential election in November, the 16 US intelligence services involved write that Afghanistan is in a dangerous "downward spiral." The report mentions mounting violence and a government consumed by corruption and barely capable of resisting the Taliban uprising. Last Thursday Admiral Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US Armed Forces, spoke of a similarly poor outlook when he predicted that the situation would become even worse next year.

NATO losses in Afghanistan through the end of August.
Zoom
DER SPIEGEL

NATO losses in Afghanistan through the end of August.
In short, pessimism about the situation in Afghanistan has never been so high.

Indeed, the mood has become so dark that it almost seemed like a ray of hope when the news broke of possible "peace talks" between the radical Islamist Taliban and the Karzai government in Mecca. Saudi Arabian King Abdullah had invited envoys from Kabul and the Taliban to attend a joint Id al-Fitr, the banquet traditionally held to mark the end of the holy month of Ramadan.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai had repeatedly asked the Saudi monarch to use his influence, as the political leader of the country that watches over Islam's holiest sites, to reconcile the two hostile groups.

Karzai also issued a passionate appeal to the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar: "Esteemed brother, return to your home, return and work for peace and stop killing your brothers."

Hardened Positions

Two government officials from Kabul and one of the Karzai brothers traveled to Mecca, along with Fazl Hadi Shinwari, the ultra-conservative head of the Ulema, or council of Islamic scholars, as well as the former Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Saif and the former Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil. Saif and Muttawakil are now seen as moderate forces with whom Karzai confers.

The other side was represented by 11 members of the Taliban who supposedly had access to the group's supreme decision-making body, the Quetta Shura. A representative of the notorious Pashtun leader Gulbuddin Hekmatjar -- allegedly his son-in law Ghairat Baheer -- was also among the guests.

A concrete result was hardly to be expected, the positions are simply far too hardened. Instead, the participants downplayed the meeting as a "pilgrimage." The Taliban "were not authorized" to conduct peace talks, former Ambassador Saif said after returning to Kabul.

It is possible, however, that the meeting did mark the beginning of a political reconciliation process, which could have two different outcomes: A participation of the Pashtun Taliban in the government or a separation of the ideologically less rigid insurgents from the hardliners.

United Nations Special Envoy Kai Eide, arguing for a dialogue with the Taliban, says: "Anyone who wants relevant results must talk to the relevant people." But experts on the extremist movement in Afghanistan believe that its radical leadership is "incapable of entering talks." They say only those insurgents who joined the Taliban as nominal members simply out of disappointment in the government could be more open to discussion -- and they are the majority.

Handful of Cash

The Taliban leadership is estimated at only a few hundred men, while the core of their militia consists of roughly 5,000 fighters. Nevertheless, the radicals can count a total of 16,000 armed men in their camp, including fighters from the Pakistani tribal regions, foreign Islamists and so-called part-time fighters -- mercenaries willing to fight at the side of the religious fanatics for a handful of cash.

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Ideology plays more of a secondary role in the insurgency in southern and eastern Afghanistan, where concrete struggles for economic resources and political power are the real source of conflict. The governors often favor a specific clan, thereby excluding other Afghans from the distribution of jobs and aid funds. If the disadvantaged ones object, they are disparaged as Taliban and declared the enemy, not infrequently with international support. This, more than anything, drives them into the arms of the extremists.

Dutch soldiers stationed in Oruzgan Province complain that the governor installed there last year, who is not a member of the same clan as the Karzai family, has no access to the president and receives virtually no government funds for his province. The man who actually holds the power in the province, say the Dutch troops, is the former provincial governor and Karzai protégé Jan Mohammed Khan, who is given regular access to the president.

The Dutch have announced their intention to withdraw from Afghanistan in 2010. The Canadians, who are holding the fort in Kandahar, where they have suffered heavy losses, plan to follow suit a year later. The British in neighboring Helmand Province are incensed because positions and funds are awarded primarily to Karzai loyalists.

With at least five million Afghans about to face the hardships of winter, some of their fellow citizens have become immensely wealthy. Anyone who has managed to become a police chief, governor or high-ranking ministry official under Karzai often has it made. Many stole land and then had themselves registered as the legal owners. Others used easy access to international aid money to establish bustling bazaars or managed to acquire licenses to mine for minerals or drill for oil. Obtaining contracts to build streets or schools was likewise not difficult.

Moral Decay

But nothing has proved to be as lucrative as the drug trade, which accounts for 53 percent of Afghanistan's gross domestic product. In the province of Helmand alone, the drug trade is a business worth several billion dollars per year.

So far not a single corrupt minister or leading drug baron has so much as been charged with a crime much less sentenced. Karzai allowed the profiteers to do as they pleased -- as long as they supported him.

Many Afghans have been left disappointedly wondering if this is what democracy really means. Indeed, the word "democracy" has for many become little more than an expletive used to describe extortion and moral decay.

Finally, NATO agreed last Friday that ISAF soldiers will be permitted to fight drug dealers and destroy heroin laboratories from now on. But the German military, the Bundeswehr, continues to hold back, limiting its drug-related activities to helping local drug enforcement officials.

One year before the presidential election, President Karzai's popularity is at a low point. And the Western press isn't helping. Just recently, the New York Times published a story about the alleged involvement of Karzai's brother, Ahmed Wali, in the drug trade. President Karzai himself denied the allegations in an interview with SPIEGEL, saying, "I have thoroughly investigated these accusations; none of them are true." The New York Times article, though, listed several witnesses who worked as informers for the Americans in an investigation against the influential head of the provincial council in Kandahar. With growing disagreement over the conduct of the war and other issues, the Americans could very well withdraw their support for Karzai.

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The United States is determined to stop the downward spiral. Washington plans to send another 20,000 troops to the country by 2011, hoping to repeat the surge strategy that has seen some success in Iraq, where the addition of 30,000 troops has helped bring relative stability to the situation.

The British, on the other hand, fear that additional US soldiers could be more likely to heat up the conflict. "We don't need more GIs, but more reconciliation, more reconstruction and more offers for those who want to get out of the conflict," says an English advisor who has been working in Afghanistan for almost two decades. The West, he says, seems to be repeating the same mistakes the Soviets made. Despite an Afghan army of 100,000 men and 120,000 of their own soldiers, Moscow's military campaign in Afghanistan was ultimately a failure -- not least because support for the war back home dried up.

In Afghanistan, there is a simple barometer for the condition of the country. The cost of transporting one truckload along the notorious road from Kabul to Kandahar was about $1,800 (€1,315) in the spring. Because of the increased danger, the price is almost 10 times as high today.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,584616,00.html

Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:34 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

So, Obamas surge will likely won't even cover the troops NATO country's will be pulling out.

and if McCain gets in.....

lol

Lets party like its 1939

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Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Local forces are the key.... hey wait a sec

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/10/200810152158993793.html

Defections hit Afghan forces

Afghan security forces are tasked with battling a resurgent Taliban [EPA]

After fighting the Taliban for the past seven years, many working for the Afghan security forces are now switching sides.

Sulieman Ameri and his 16 men were until a month ago serving the Afghan government as police patrolling the border with Iran.

Now they answer to the Taliban and their goal is to drive all foreign troops out of Afghanistan.

Ameri, now a Taliban commander, told Al Jazeera that he joined the Taliban because of what he called anti-Muslim behaviour by international soldiers.

"I have seen everything with my own eyes, I have seen prostitution, I have seen them drinking alcohol. We are Muslim and therefore jihad is our obligation," Ameri said in the mountains south of Herat.

"Our soil is occupied by Americans and I want them to leave this country. That is my only goal," he added.

'Respectful behaviour'

Brigadier-General Richard Blanchette, a spokesman for the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) in Afghanistan, said Isaf troops were "behaving in the most respectful way".

"I have no specific information about any activity that would have happened in Herat but I know for sure that the Taliban and other insurgents are conducting a propaganda campaign against us. And I can confirm to you that our troops are behaving in the most respectful way," he told Al Jazeera.

The UN has warned that the Taliban's
influence is spreading [EPA]

"Anytime that I would hear that somebody is joining the insurgency I think it is bad news because we know the Taliban are offering nothing for the future of this country," he said.

But Ameri and his men are not the only renegade government forces – some 70 police and soldiers have switched allegiances across the western region in the past two months.

Al Jazeera's Dan Nolan, reporting from Afghanistan, said "low wages for a dangerous jobs" did not seem to be the reason behind the desertions.

Instead, they deserted for ideological reasons, Nolan explained.

"When Russia came it was only one country, today we have 24 foreign infidel countries on our soil. All our men and women should come and join the jihad," Fida Mohammad, a new Taliban recruit, told Al Jazeera.

'Infidel' training

But though they reject the "infidels", they are not averse to receiving weapons or military training from them.

The recruits - so fresh that many have not yet grown their beards, while some are still smoking, a practice banned by the Taliban - carry weapons provided by the Afghan government and certificates for weapons training by the US.

Abdul Rahim, another new recruit, said he received training from American military contractor Blackwater for 45 days.

"I can use the training to save my life in these mountains and I can also use it to fight them," he said.

The switch in allegiances comes as the UN special envoy to Afghanistan warned on Tuesday that the Taliban's influence continues to spread beyond traditional strongholds to provinces around the capital, Kabul.

Kai Eide also told the UN Security Council that Taliban attacks - at a six-year high – would probably grow in the coming weeks instead of easing, as they have in previous winters.

"We should be prepared for a situation where the insurgency will not experience the same winter lull, the same reduction in hostilities we have experienced in past winters," he said.

Eide added that attacks against humanitarian workers had also increased.

Abdul Hakim Ashir, a spokesman for the Afghan interior ministry, denied that a high number of police officers had defected.

"I strongly refuse that 70 people [have defected to the Taliban] because this year we lost only 10 officers who maybe joined the Taliban,"

"We have increased the number of officers from 61,000 to 82,000 this year. The police recruitment process is going very well. Those from the young generation especially are joining the police forces.

"Over the last month, we have graduated 2,000 non-commissioned officers. That means there has been an increase and not a decrease in the police force."

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, October 20, 2008 1:52 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Afghan mayor turns Taliban leader

The former mayor of Afghanistan's Herat province is now the most powerful local Taliban commander.

Ghullam Yahya Akbari told Al Jazeera that he will not negotiate with the Afghan government as long as foreign troops are on Afghan soil.

Afghan mayor joins Taliban
Given exclusive access to one of his 20 mountain bases hidden deep inside rugged terrain that Akbari says were also used to fight the Russians, Al Jazeera's Qais Azimy found a group of at least 60 well-armed Taliban fighters.

Akbari's steely resolve to fight foreign forces comes amid reports of many soldiers defecting to the Taliban. Many are unhappy with the "un-Islamic" ways of the foreign troops.

Young and old

Some in Akbari's camps were just teenagers, others old enough to be enjoying retirement, but all had left families behind and were committed to the fight to push international troops out of Afghanistan.

Akbari said he had 20 bases training fighters
in the rugged mountain area
"I will continue jihad against the Americans who have invaded our soil until the last drop of blood remains in my body," Askar, one of the fighters, said.

The food they eat is mostly dry bread, but the fighters do have satellite television and complaints appear rare.

"We are not doing jihad for our stomachs, we are doing jihad for Allah," another fighter said.

Akbari said the 20 mountain bases under his charge were also used by some of the same fighters to drive out the Russians in the 1980s.

"People may wonder why we live up in the mountains. That's because we want to avoid civilian casualties and fight with guerrilla tactics," he said.

No talks

The former mayor is not interested in peace talks and said he would even turn his guns against Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, if he negotiated with the Afghan government.

The fighters said they were willing to fight
to the death
"I do not believe that Mullah Omar would do that but if they sit with the Afghan government and negotiate then for us they will be like all the other members of the government and we'll continue our jihad," Akbari said.

A spokesperson for the Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) dismissed suggestions of an increase in Taliban support.

"While they were in power this was the worst administration in the history of the country so why would the people of Afghanistan want the Taliban back?" Brigadier-General Richard Blanchette said.

But Al Jazeera's Azimy said the group had grown in its reach since he last met the fighters more than a month before.

It now held three young policemen hostage and appeared to be a real threat, he said.

Twenty Afghan members of parliament have meanwhile gone on strike in protest at the worsening security situation in Herat, and over what they say is the government's inability to fix it.

The move is another sign of the difficulties facing Nato-led forces in bringing peace to the country.

Al Jazeera's Dan Nolan, reporting from Kabul, said that the strikes reflect further discontent on the part of Afghan officials.

"The security situation, and the increased attacks by Taliban fighters has many fearing that they can no longer protect themselves or depend on the government to come to their aid," he said.

Khalid Pashtun, a member of parliament, told Al Jazeera: "The MPs from Herat are telling us that, for the past few months, they have been expressing their concern, wanting to replace the governor and some of the higher authority people in Herat, but so far there is no response back from the central government.

"I would agree with Nato that Akbari is not really a big threat to Herat security. But for the past few years he has tried destabilising the area. Lately, in Herat kidnapping is increasing, and most of these actions were blamed on him."

Pashtun explained that Akbari was a prominent commander and that after the Russians left Afghanistan he was mayor of Herat between 1992 and 1996.

"He was a very successful mayor. When the Taliban was in power, he was exiled to Iran, and we heard he was selling vegetables there, so he was extremely poor.

"Since this government took over, he has been the head of the public works department. But one of his conditions for coming back was that he would be in the mountains until they replace the governor, but this condition has not been met yet.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/10/200810173815406492.html

Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, November 2, 2008 10:31 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7702970.stm

Three bloody summers in Afghanistan

Alastair Leithhead
BBC News, Kabul

Three summers ago, Britain's war in Afghanistan began in earnest when 3,300 troops set up camp on a small, remote patch of desert in a little-known place called Helmand.

Some of the fiercest fighting has been in Helmand province

It's now a name most associate with war - a place where more than 100 British troops have died - and where efforts to bring stability and defeat a fierce insurgency have so far failed.

Some say there aren't enough troops, others say there are too many, and even commanders now admit this war won't be won by military force alone.

Based in Kabul, I have followed British troops over the last three years, and before leaving my posting in Afghanistan, went on one final trip to Helmand to try and answer the question of whether this mission is worthwhile.

In April 2006 it was sold, politically, as a peace-building mission.

"We'd be perfectly happy to leave in three years' time without firing one shot," the then Defence Secretary, John Reid, announced in Kabul.

But the following day the commander of British forces in Afghanistan, Brigadier Ed Butler gave another insight: "The greatest danger is we know very little about Helmand province, so it is a lack of information that will be the greatest challenge."

Just a few months later, troops were fighting for their lives, defending small isolated bases from wave after wave of attacks, dropping bombs on their doorsteps to keep insurgents at bay.

Since then, the nature of the fighting has changed, but the violence has continued.
Soldiers praying for fallen colleagues in Lashkar Gah
2008 has been the bloodiest year yet for coalition troops

We experienced first hand the violence again this year - a third bloody summer for British forces in Helmand and at a forward base on the fringes of the town of Sangin.

We were met by incoming fire, as rockets crashed down close to the camp and British forces scrambled to return fire.

The next day, out on patrol, troops were dropping mortar bombs just ahead of their own positions as the Taleban moved forward into battle.

One mortar fell short through some technical fault and a soldier was injured, and the troops scrambled back to base with the insurgents in hot pursuit.

The next day they did it all over again, and on that occasion a 24-year-old dog handler was killed.

Since 2001 more than 120 British servicemen and women have died in Afghanistan.

Finding a way to win

The Taleban have lost many more men in the fighting, among them key commanders. They may wear flip-flops and fight a guerrilla war with old-fashioned weapons, but they are still a force capable of taking on the world's finest armies and not losing.

The definition of "winning" or "losing" is vitally important when it comes to what British and other international forces want to achieve in Afghanistan.

Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith, who commanded British forces in Helmand this summer, told Panorama: "There is no exclusively military solution to the nature of the insurgency in Afghanistan."
Power turbine being moved to Kajaki dam
This power turbine will help provide electricity for more than a million

It's become clear over the months and years that this counter-insurgency campaign can't be won by fighting alone.

What then are the options for troops who are taking on a force prepared to die in battle, to blow themselves up in suicide attacks, and to plant roadside bombs in an effort to kill international and Afghan soldiers?

British forces came here to stop Afghanistan from again becoming the haven for al-Qaeda it was when the Twin Towers were hit on 9/11.

Troops are supporting the Afghan government, helping them to bring peace and prosperity and at the same time trying to tackle the huge problem of opium production, the raw material for most of the heroin on Britain's streets.

It has meant fighting to bring enough security to allow civilian experts to bring development projects to the people and better government to their town halls.

The strategy is to persuade Afghan people their lives will be better in a stable, secure, democratic Afghanistan.

This year more than £20m ($32m) will be spent on development projects in Helmand, including a river scheme which will bring irrigation water to 20,000 people and schools, clinics and wells.
Helmand map

However money has also been spent on a £300,000 road that, so far, goes nowhere, and a £400,000 park which few people use as security is so bad.

We met farmers and businessmen who laughed at the idea there was security in the towns and villages across much of Helmand.

People's opinions of the international efforts to help their country have changed over the past seven years.

In 2001 after the Taleban were forced from power, optimism was overflowing as first a new democratic constitution, then a president, then a parliament all took up office.

Millions of Afghans, living in exile after nearly 30 years of war, headed home with high hopes that finally their country was on track.

Millions of girls went to school, billions of dollars arrived in aid and the West felt confident it could change regimes and stabilise countries.

The battle for democracy

Hamid Karzai
President Karzai questions Britain's tactics in Helmand
But this is Afghanistan: a fiercely tribal, staunchly Islamic, traditional society where warlords and drug barons, human rights abusers and criminals held sway amid the chaos and gained power as the Taleban fled.

Afghans were disappointed as the West failed to meet the expectations or bring the basics such as security and justice, but they now put up with the foreign involvement knowing it would be civil war if they left.

The Afghan government is struggling to keep a hold as the situation is gradually deteriorating.

President Hamid Karzai believes the British in Helmand have taken the wrong approach.

"The problem in the West was they felt they could copy in a day a system of administration and management which has been practiced in your country for more than a century," he told Panorama.

The troop presence continues and more US forces will soon be deployed to Afghanistan, an important and strategic country wedged between Iran and an increasingly chaotic Pakistan.

Can the multinational forces "win" in Afghanistan? Only if winning means staying and not "losing" long enough for Afghanistan to shape a stable future.

However, with the insurgency filtering into the vacuum left by poor governance and security, time is on nobody's side but the Taleban.

Lets party like its 1939

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Sunday, November 2, 2008 10:53 PM

KHYRON

Thanks for keeping this thread updated, Gino, but I wouldn't expect any discussions about Afghanistan until well after the election.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

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Monday, November 3, 2008 1:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, there's nothin to discuss, at least for me, I done said it all the minute we got in it, as everyone here remembers.

I can sum it all up in two statements.

I told you so.

Can we go home now ?

-F

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Monday, November 3, 2008 2:51 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Thanks for keeping this thread updated, Gino, but I wouldn't expect any discussions about Afghanistan until well after the election.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

I know, but I think it is an issue that becomes more important everyday. Also I think it is an issue that neither McCain or Obama have particularly good plans to do something with.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/11/200811314923909876.html

Pakistan warns Petraeus over raids

Many Pakistanis oppose US air raids on
their soil [AFP]

Asif Ali Zardari, the Pakistani president, has warned General David Petraeus, the US commander running the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, that missile strikes on Pakistani territory were "counterproductive" and "detrimental to the war on terror".

Zardari's comments came as Petraeus made his first visit to Pakistan on Monday, since he took over as head of the US Central Command.

"Continuing drone attacks on our territory, which result in loss of precious lives and property, are counterproductive and difficult to explain by a democratically-elected government," the state-run Associated Press of Pakistan quoted Zardari as telling Petraeus.

"It is creating a credibility gap."

Sovereignty 'violated'

However, Zardari told the 'Talk to Al Jazeera' television programme that some of the US drone attacks on his country's soil could be "excused" as the mountainous Afghan-Pakistani border was often difficult to discern.

"If a drone comes in and targets a particular place, even the map doesn't [always] know if it's in Afghanistan or Pakistan," he said.

US forces or intelligence agents are suspected of carrying out at least 17 missile attacks in Pakistan since August. Pakistan has condemned them as violations of the country's sovereignty, but the raids have continued.

Zardari also defended his country's co-operation with US forces operating in the region.

"There is a UN resolution on Afghanistan and, on any side of the border, there needs to be interaction so we interact with the Americans."

Petraeus's trip to Islamabad signals Pakistan's crucial role in Washington's so-called "war on terror", particularly in the escalating conflict in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Waziristan blast

In a sign of the challenge facing Pakistani and US forces along the border with Afghanistan, just hours before his arrival on Sunday, eight Pakistani paramilitary soldiers were killed in a blast in South Waziristan.

The suicide attack at a Frontier Corps checkpoint in Zalai came after two targets in Pakistan were hit by suspected US missiles on Friday.

At least 12 suspected fighters were killed by two missiles fired by a suspected US drone near Wana.

That raid followed an attack in neighbouring North Waziristan, where two missiles killed 20 suspected Arab fighters, including al-Qaeda's propaganda chief, security officials said.

Pakistan has deployed security forces throughout the northwest of the country in an attempt to combat fighters sympathetic to the Taliban and al-Qaeda, which Washington says are crossing the porous border to attack US and Nato-led troops in Afghanistan.

Petraeus is accompanied by Richard Boucher, the US assistant secretary of state, on the visit.

"They are here for previously scheduled meetings with government and military officials," Lou Fintor, US embassy spokesman, said.

Petraeus held talks with General Ashfaq Kayani, Pakistan's army chief, and Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhta, the defence minister, on Monday.

Petraeus, previously the senior US commander in Baghdad, has indicated support for efforts to reach out to members of the Taliban considered moderate enough to co-operate with the Afghan government.

Reach out to those willing to deal with the Afghan gov ???

This gov has proven itself so corrupt I doubt anyone will line up to deal with it, with the impending US loss in Iraq the momentum for negotiation just isn't there.....

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, November 3, 2008 3:14 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Also I think it is an issue that neither McCain or Obama have particularly good plans to do something with.

Does anybody? There's just so much that the West can do, and probably none of its options will be the correct one.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

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Monday, November 3, 2008 7:19 PM

FREMDFIRMA

We could, yanno... leave.

Let Afghanistan solve Afghanistans problems for once, it's not like they don't have enough hardass folks with firepower to smack flat anything they find completely unacceptable.

And if we don't agree with what they find acceptable, tough titty, we got our own problems to deal with, and they're more important than not liking the way someone else runs their own country.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, November 3, 2008 7:47 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
We could, yanno... leave.

Let Afghanistan solve Afghanistans problems for once, it's not like they don't have enough hardass folks with firepower to smack flat anything they find completely unacceptable.

And if we don't agree with what they find acceptable, tough titty, we got our own problems to deal with, and they're more important than not liking the way someone else runs their own country.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

After the US inflicts them with a system of government that is beyond a joke you suggest cut and run.....

you know, I would agree, only with the provision the President doing it stands up and apologizes for the damage done

you know that could go for all previous US mis adventures as well

Hey Iran the Shah was an ass, really sorry, etc

Might not really mean alot, well except for maybe not doing it again.

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, November 3, 2008 9:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, we pull out - and the current gov is either gonna have to work it out with "the people" or be crushed by them.

Which is, when you think about it, how it's SUPPOSED to work, right ?

Consent of the governed and all that, instead of or-else at the barrel of a gun, yes ?

The Afganis are prettymuch sick of taking shit from other people and being stepped on for so many years, the russians, us, others... and they're not fond of us arming and training shitheels like Osama to fight the russians and then letting them loose on the countryside when we had no further use for them, something which backfired on us like it always does.

Just packing up and getting the hell out would be the kindest, smartest thing we could do, in all honestly.

But before we left, I would hand off all surplus and captured war materials to RAWA for their own defense, not that they will use em, but at least being in their possession is a deterrent.

They have different views on the use of violence than I do, but I respect them greatly all the same - I have a beautiful piece one of them painted for me titled "breaking the chains", and they have a statuette of a snow owl in midstrike which I gave them.

I've been funnelling electronics, film, office supplies and such to them for quite a while now, but our MO is far too different for many of the tactics I favor to be of use to them, and they would not resort to such methods voluntarily anyhow.

Still, good people, all the same.
http://www.rawa.org/index.php

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, November 4, 2008 5:00 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Pay them to stop fighting. It sounds completely wrong but it has been working in Iraq. It's not called that of course, it's called The "Suni Awakening." We're giving them a wage to patrol and keep the peace. It's millions cheaper than sending in the military, it's better than blood, and it actually works.
Dexter Filkins from the NYTimes had nothing hopeful to say about his time in Afghanistan. He said the fighters frequently trade sides like it's a game of pickup basketball. They follow who ever is winning.

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