REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Normally, the UN can kiss my ass, but.....

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Monday, November 26, 2007 18:17
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Saturday, November 24, 2007 6:31 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


they got this one right anyways:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22814674-5001028,0
0.html?from=public_rss


Better enjoy those taser videos while you can. Once America has been sold to the higest bidder and we're under UN rule, the boys in blue won't be able to tase anymore.... that is, unless the UN just outright legalizes torture, which I suppose is very possible as well.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, November 24, 2007 8:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Doubt it'll have any impact here, Jack.

Of all the countries that signed off on the UN Convention on the rights of children, every civilized nation and a couple I might consider not to be so... only one, at this time, has refused to sign off.

Only one...
This one.

And when sanctions against a certain country that shall not be named come up, only one nation, generally, votes against them.

Care to guess ?

So no, it won't have much effect.

Thing is, I would rather not see them outright banned, since they ARE less lethal than a firearm and can save lives in a case where otherwise you would shoot someone - but it seems it's gonna have to happen cause we cannot trust the goons we issued them to behave like adults instead of swaggering high school jockboys, and no one is willing to adopt the policies that would limit or prevent their abuse in spite of that fact.

So I guess ban it's gonna be, which we'll conveniently ignore just like we do edicts against a certain country that shall not be named.

Our membership in the UN, who quite rightfully pitched us off the council for human rights, seems to be reaching a shit or get off the pot position - in this I am not fully in agreement with Ron Paul, as I think we should take a leadership position and lead by example, making friends instead of enemies, allies instead of opponents, and help clean out the corruption of the UN itself - but I think we've effectively destroyed our own reputation enough that such is no longer possible at this time.

So either do it right, or pull out and tell em where to stuff their dues, but damn man, one or the other, yanno ?

Halfassery is just stupid.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 3:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

"The use of these weapons causes acute pain, constituting a form of torture," the UN's Committee against Torture said.


Well, I guess pepper spray, bily clubs, restraining holds, handcuffs, piling on, etc. are all right out too, since they can also cause acute pain. Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.





"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 3:38 AM

BIONICBATMAN


You're right. And i would believe if they were trying to outlaw them those would exact examples of what we'd say to defend it.

Honestly, if you are say about 190 lb and about 6 feet tall and, you are having to arrest a hostile man who is about 275 and 6 foot 7. What are you gonna want that you know will take him down? The very effective taser!

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:02 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Well....when you put it that way.....

it sounds like something Bill would say on FOX's no spin zone....

lol

Just playin with you Geeze....

I'm not entirely opposed to tazers. I think that in crucial circumstances that they can be a great boon to law enforcement, and civiilzation in general. I'm just not too impressed with ways that I've seen them used as of late. I'm sure I don't see many (if any) good uses that the tazer has produced since it's adoption by law enforcement officals, but I realize that at the same time, I rarely ever see a criminal get away on America's Wildest Police Chases either. To show the other side would to be to discredit the intent of those showing the images.

There's camera's everywhere now, most importantly in this case right on the front of the cop car, that can show both sides of what happens. I have no problem with our law enforcement using them if it is used in a judicious and intelligent manner as if the cops had some training before being given that power.

I have a problem, however, when cops think to themselves "hey... I've got this amazing weapon that won't kill the victim. That means I can pretty much use it like I'm James Bond with a license to kill....."

These cops should be tried in a fair court of law. Every single person who is guilty of using one when not legally permitted to do so should lose their badge and any medical care they recieve and any possible pension they had.

That's the end of me on my soap box here......



EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link of something I believe can't be warranted by the people.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1

Nothing like getting tazed in the back for not complying with orders, (with no legal basis) especially when you never once posed a physical threat...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:06 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.



For an incompetent fool, perhaps. A trained professional would realize those aren't the only two alternatives. It's a false dichotomy Geez. These things are being held up as an alternative to lethal force, but that's not how they're being used. The cops tasing protesting college kids, or argumentative drivers in traffic stops, aren't facing this hypothetical dilemma. They're looking for a way to control the situation that's easier for them. That's all this is about, convenience for cops. Don't try to tell me that being electrocuted is 'for my own good'.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:28 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
These cops should be tried in a fair court of law. Every single person who is guilty of using one when not legally permitted to do so should lose their badge and any medical care they recieve and any possible pension they had.



I hear ya, but I still think there's something inherent in the designed use of these things that makes them 'cruel and unusual punishment' from the onset.

For those of you so enthusiastic about granting ultimate power to authority, answer me this hypothetical question. Let's say someone develops a way to implant a remotely triggered 'pain chip' in the human brain at birth. It's foolproof, can't be removed, and can only be triggered by police officers. It would give them the ability to completely disable anyone in they deal with instantly and with no permanent damage. Would you be as excited about that? Would it keep us 'safe'? By all the arguments beign trotted out for tasers, this new tool would be awesome, right?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:48 AM

LEADB


Sarg;
First, if they even get seriously close about installing such a chip in 'everybody', I'm heading North.

Second, unless you are -also- going to take away their guns, I'd rather police be issued both; with severe penalties for misusing the taser ; with reviews as Frem and I have been discussing over time. If you are ready to take the guns away from the cops, then ok, I'd be happy to see tasers go too.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:34 AM

SERGEANTX


I guess it comes down to a question of how much control we want authority to have. I want it to be minimal. I want to have the choice whether to fight back or not. I'm not willing to give them the ability to reach into my mind and fuck with my very will. I want to be able to say, "You can kill me, but you can't control me." Hopefully, I'll never feel compelled to choose that option, but I want it to be there.

The thing is, we are rapidly approaching the point where technology (tasers are only the beginning) will be capable of rendering resistance futile. We'll be able to not only catch and punish people who break the law, but control them to the point that they can't break the law in the first place. We'll put chips in their cars so they can be disabled by authorities. We'll have cameras everywhere to detect any 'suspicious behaviour'. We'll track and monitor everyone who seems like a threat (to the government?). I suspect a fair number of people today think those sorts of things would be a good idea, and that frightens me.

Freedom, real freedom, also includes the freedom to break the law. It includes the freedom to resist.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yeah. Best we go back to the good ole days, when a sturdy billy club got the job done....



"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Re: Taser + Camera.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

You look at the crap they're willing to pull on camera, in front of witnesses, and you think about how bad it likely is when they are not.

You *have* to address the core corruption of the sub-society that is the police force itself, before you have a hope in hell of ever getting them to act like human beings.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:18 AM

RIGHTEOUS9


maybe there should be some sort of standard inquiry in front of a board every time an officer uses a tazer.

Isn't there something in place like that for when they end up shooting somebody, even if its lawful? maybe not. I'm using tv shows as my source here...

granted, that's used more to cover their ass and make things look as if they took the matter gravely, than it is to unearth any wrong-doing,

but I'd expect a cop who had to go through all those hoops every time he used a tazer, to think twice about it, you know, in those situations when he has time to think twice about it(which means he shouldn't be fucking using it!)

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't advocate banning guns, and I don't advocate banning tasers.

They should just be used appropriately.


--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:35 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


As was mentioned before tasers were originally an alternative to deadly force - ie guns. Where before you'd reach for your gun, you were suppose to reach for your taser.

NOW they're being used as 'a routine method to gain compliance'.

Is there anyone here who doesn't see the difference ? Geezer ?

And Frem has a good point - if they do this kind of stuff on camera, what about when the camera is off ?

Tasers have become an all-purpose tool. Be queit. ZZTT. Move along. ZZTTT. Come with me ZZZTTT. Sign the ticket. ZZTTT. Did you shoplift this ? ZZTTT. He punched my partner. Time for street justice. ZZZZTT. ZZZTT. ZZTTT. Let's see what a badass he is now. ZZZTT. ZZZTTT.


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:35 AM

TPAGE


OK, so Tasers are evil... should we go back to using batons? A Taser prevents harm to the officer and Tasers do NOT result in death. In every recorded case it has been due to additional factors almost always involving resistance from the suspect and use of additional weapons or techniques. (Taser, plus baton, plus pepper spra, as well as body weight of officers to keep the subject subdued).

Sure, I understand the Taser can be classified as a form of torture. But how is pepper spray then not? Shooting burning hot sauce into someone's eyes must also be torture so scratch that.

Then we've got the baton. Very crude, basically whacking someone until they're bruised and beaten to a pulp. That's not very nice, scratch that.

So, we're left with the gun. Don't want to use that in a lot of situations, you know it does cause death. But technically death is worse than torture (it ranks higher in the UN Declaration of Human Rights).

So say we arm officers with what they've already got: their fists and feet. I'll admit properly trained martial arts experts can be very effective. But I don't see every police officer there is becoming such an expert. Especially when the assailant may have a their own weapon (from baton, to knife, to gun).

So I think it is important to remember here that every technique or tool that the police use can be classified in one way or another as either torture or against one right or another. The purpose of these tools is to subdue those who are breaking the law and resisting arrest. We should realise that yes we would like to avoid using these tools but in the end it is for the same reason we take our people's liberty and send them to jail and say it is ok.

* Mind you, these past couple of weeks their has been some bad judgement calls by the police as to the use of the Taser.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 7:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"So, we're left with the gun."

As was mentioned before tasers were originally an alternative to deadly force - ie guns. Where before you'd reach for your gun, you were suppose to reach for your taser.

NOW they're being used as 'a routine method to gain compliance'.

Anyone here NOT see the difference ? Tpage ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:03 AM

SERGEANTX


Well, all I can say is that if this is the direction we're moving in, I can only consider the cops as my enemy, and by extension, myself a criminal. Go ahead. Keep pushing us.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:06 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Anyone here NOT see the difference ? Tpage



I'm seeing it Rue, but the point falls on deaf ears. The argument of tasers as alternatives to deadly force is fake and doesn't address any of the abuse cases being discussed.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I was just hoping that people who posit tasers as an all purpose tool will understand that their original use was as an alternative to deadly force only. That's the reason why they came into acceptance even though everyone at the time understood the potential for abuse.

Geezer snickeringly said - "Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain." Aside from being an obvious false dilemma, polite conversation is one of THE most effective tools for gaining cooperation and deescalating a situation. It's the CHP's first weapon of choice, so to speak. And when dealing with potentially unstable people, "have you eaten today?" and "can I get you anything?" get a far better response and more cooperation than anything else.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:54 AM

BADKARMA00


I don't now, nor have I ever, gave a damn what the UN thinks. They have proven time and again that they are inept, undecisive, and corrupt to the core. It's apparently fine and dandy to kill people for having a different ethnicity or religion in nearly every part of the world, so long as we, here in America, don't mistreat our criminals, lol.
The hell with the UN and their rules, opinions, and all around wussy ways. What have they ever done that was worth talking about? What have they accomplished? NOTHING.
So who cares what they think?

Bad_karma

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:46 AM

SERGEANTX


I don't. But they happen to be right in this case. Our nation is so lost in its post 9/11 insecurity that we can't see it, but it's there if you look.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:54 AM

CHRISISALL


A policeman tased a dude for not taking a speeding ticket- you can also start a car with a dead battery using 'em- they truly are the all-purpose tool!

Tasers all around! Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:56 AM

BADKARMA00


Actually, my feelings for the UN aside, I don't believe they are correct. I know that the panic mongers among us are crying havoc over the use of Tasers and other stun devices, and I am not so stupid as to believe that there are those out there that don't misuse them.
The answer, however, is not disarming the police, but rather punishing severely those among them who misuse and abuse their authority. The simple fact is that it is more dangerous than ever to be a police officer of any level, thanks to our liberal judges and politicians who want to be everyone's 'friend' and make sure that America punishes only those of us who obey the law and try to make a good living.
There are rotten cops out there, we've all seen them. Lean on those in power to get rid of them, instead of pulling the teeth of every officer out there. If we keep restriciting the tools available to the police, sooner or later they will simply stop responding to violent calls, finding some reason or other that prevents them from rushing to the scene until the violence is past.
If they do that, then we'll see who the enemy is, lol, and it won't be the ones wearing the badges I'm willing to bet. Well, it will to those who simply hate the law no matter what.
And, if it does come to that, I don't blame them for not placing their own lives in danger when they are denied the tools they need to protect the rest of us because of the hysterical ramblings of so many people living in dreamland over a few jackboot types who should have been fired. Better yet, imprisoned.


Bad_karma

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:03 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Well, I guess pepper spray, bily clubs, restraining holds, handcuffs, piling on, etc. are all right out too, since they can also cause acute pain. Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.

In fact, batons and physical restraint are far, far more likely to cause injury and death then tasers.

It’s funny how people would rather see detainees killed by physical restraint then have to listen to someone scream from being tasered. It’s a completely emotional and irrational response (and a little bit selfish) and it's a dangerous response, because it’s going to get people killed.

The UN is dumb.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link of something I believe can't be warranted by the people.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1

Nothing like getting tazed in the back for not complying with orders, (with no legal basis) especially when you never once posed a physical threat...


Where's Hero to tell us why this was warranted, and how it's legal?

Yeah, a free country...free to abuse, that is

not THE MAN Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:26 AM

HKCAVALIER


Wull, I don't much expect to be heard by the folks that particularly need to understand the distinction, but it's an issue of absolute power and control. A taser removes your will from the equasion. None of those other things (batons, pepper spray, etc.) will do that with the kind of mechanical, physiological certainty of a taser. The taser represents a level of actual control that should be understood as a violation of human dignity. No one deserves that (sure, if you're in a life and death situation, human dignity may have to be discounted temporarily--but that's what Rue and others are talking about--life and death situations).

But that's one of the big, BIG problems of our age--many, many people still believe that certain folks do not deserve to have their dignity respected. The idea seems to be that certain folks can forfeit their right to being treated with dignity by their actions.

I was nearly arrested last year, pulled out of a bathroom, pushed against a wall, searched/slapped, and manhandled out to the squad car because I matched the broadest description (long hair, backpack, 40ish) of a man who stabbed a clerk at a nearby Safeway. When it was brought to light that I was not the attacker, this cop clearly felt ashamed and tried to prop himself up by suggesting that I'd have wanted him to treat the actual attacker the way he'd mistakenly treated me. I was so furious with this man at that point, all I could say was a simple "no" and let it go, get away from him and his gun asap.

This idea that certain people deserve to be treated like human garbage is central to the authoritarian mindset. Of course it has far more to do with the punisher's desire to do harm, to humiliate and to dominate than it does with the highly debatable "deserving" of the victim. These folks have a lot of violence that they want to do in the world (they've surely had a lot of violence done to them) so they create a society where their violent urges will be realized and culturally acceptible (at least vicariously/voyeuristically through the police and the military). But, no mistake, it is about sadism--about gaining satisfaction, not safety, through violence. It is about all the anarchic rage that channels itself into whatever "lawful" outlet people can find.

What do all these cops that misuse tasers have in common? Well, they got issues, don't they? They're angry folks that don't feel that they have enough power in the world. And they find an acceptible outlet for that in using the taser. Such folks need to be educated about the human soul, but most of all they need to be educated about their OWN souls.

Oh well, maybe in their next life time, right?

(That last joke was mainly for Chrisisall--hey Chris! )

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:37 AM

SERGEANTX


HK,

I find myself, once again, indebted to your eloquence. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:45 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But that's one of the big, BIG problems of our age--many, many people still believe that certain folks do not deserve to have their dignity respected. The idea seems to be that certain folks can forfeit their right to being treated with dignity by their actions.

So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee? I think the issue is more deeply rooted in the empathetic response of observers then any issue of totalitarianism. You can, and nations have, inflicted far greater total rule of a populace with nothing more than batons and knees. The problem with tasers is that they cause pain which is clearly visible. An observer cannot escape the “feel” that someone is being hurt. But it’s purely emotional. The detainee could possibly be controlled quietly, which is more acceptable to critics of the taser, but only with the use of physical force that would leave far greater trauma on the detainee and possibly result in the detainee’s death. It’s completely irrational.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 11:07 AM

SERGEANTX


God, that's depressing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:08 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I was just hoping that people who posit tasers as an all purpose tool will understand that their original use was as an alternative to deadly force only. That's the reason why they came into acceptance even though everyone at the time understood the potential for abuse.


Who's "...posit(ing) tasers as an all purpose tool"? I just don't think they should be banned as torture. They're a tool which can be used properly or misused, just like anything else. Obviously, all law enforcement in the country hasn't gotten appropriate training, but if you give up any tool that a few misuse, pretty soon you're down to nothing.

Quote:

Geezer snickeringly said - "Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain." Aside from being an obvious false dilemma,

Not snickering, and it seems a real dilemma to me.
Okay, besides taser/billyclub/handcuffs/pepperspray/restraining holds/piling on or any other actions which may cause intense pain, other alternatives against a violent person (other than talk and bullets) are? Remember that threat of death or serious injury causing intense fear is also torture, so 'stop or I'll shoot' doesn't qualify.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:23 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


badkarma

You are so full of attitude and so short of facts.

"The hell with the UN ... What have they ever done that was worth talking about? What have they accomplished? NOTHING."
They eradicated smallpox and are close to eradicating polio. That's no small accomplishment.


"it is more dangerous than ever to be a police officer of any level ..."
It's actually not that dangerous being a cop. It's over 500x more dangerous being in transportation, farming or logging.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:32 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"people would rather see detainees killed by physical restraint"

"So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee?"

Hello. Words ? Pepper spray ? There is FAR less danger to either party using words, and very little danger using pepper spray. Why use a taser when either of those would suffice ?

***************************************************************
Most normal people assume using the LEAST amount of force needed is the goal. Others here don't make that assumption. I don't know what category that puts them in, but it ain't normal.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:48 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hello. Words ? Pepper spray ? There is FAR less danger to either party using words, and very little danger using pepper spray. Why usee a taser when either of those would suffice ?

To begin with Pepper spray is only really effective when it contacts the face. It’s hard to aim and it splatters. It should also be noted that pepper spray can cause serious issues for people respiratory problems. Pepper spray is good for stopping an offender, but it’s less effective in forcing compliance. Once the suspect is stopped, they still need to be subdued so that he cuffs can be put on and pepper spray is probably more likely to cause problems with this as a detainee may be unwilling to move his hands away from his face, since his eyes and nose are killing him right now. It’s effects last - a long time, where the pain inflicted by a taser disappears as soon as the taser stops. I’d much rather be tasered then pepper sprayed.
It may sometimes be preferable to a taser, but it‘s not a replacment.


As far as “using words“, well communication is ALWAYS the preferable initial tactic now isn’t it, but only an absolute fool would rely on it in all situations especially if the initial attempt to communicate has failed. Basically, if we’re talking about tasers and pepper spray, we can all assume that communication has failed.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.

A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.

***************************************************************
Yeah, right.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:56 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee?


How about using violence to oppose violent peeps? Non-violent perps can be handled in ways that don't include busted skulls or taser-induced heart falure.
It's the whole pre-emptive mindset where action is concerned that troubles me.
Have you seen this, Finn?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1
I think it's amazing how the officer spins the sit to seem like he needed to tase the fella.
And if the dude had died, I guarantee you this vid would be disappeared from jump.

Cowards love-y the taser. All of the abuse; none of the blood. Less paperwork that way.

And just to say it- yes, I DO think they have a place in law enforcement, just not in the hands of the average fool, which, unfortunately by my estimation, would be easily one-third of any group, including policemen.

An elitist, and proud of it Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:56 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
They eradicated smallpox and are close to eradicating polio. That's no small accomplishment.



Reversing its policy, UN agency promotes DDT to combat the scourge of malaria http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19855&Cr=malaria&Cr1

"15 September 2006 – Nearly 30 years after safety concerns led to the phasing out of indoor spraying with DDT and other insecticides to control malaria, the United Nations health agency said today it will start promoting this method again to fight the global scourge that kills more than one million people every year, including around 3,000 children everyday."



For every one person the UN has helped, they probably have killed two with their meddling. Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN.





"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:00 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.

A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.

If you say so. Sounds more like an inappropriate use to me, if what you say is true, but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
They're a tool which can be used properly or misused, just like anything else. Obviously, all law enforcement in the country hasn't gotten appropriate training

The best cops I know are mostly self-trained.
In my world cops are paid twice as much- but then it's twice as hard to become one.




The 'humanity' test is a snag Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:02 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
For every one person the UN has helped, they probably have killed two with their meddling. Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN.

Shit, a few more they'd be competing with the US government.

Always the brides maid UN.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:03 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN."

You pulled the 50 million out of your ass. Where you seem to get all your other 'facts' and attitudes.

I'll give you a tip. When you include a link, be sure it doesn't contradict you.


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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:06 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton."

REALLY !

***************************************************************
Only if he aims it at his own face.

:snicker:

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:06 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cowards love-y the taser. All of the abuse; none of the blood. Less paperwork that way.

And just to say it- yes, I DO think they have a place in law enforcement, just not in the hands of the average fool, which, unfortunately by my estimation, would be easily one-third of any group, including policemen.

So instead we’ll take away the taser, so that this supposed one third can abuse their power with batons? Instead of abuse with no blood, we’ll now have abuse with busted skulls and lots of blood? If what you say is true, this doesn’t sound like much of a deal. I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force, then please let it be with a taser so I can avoid the brain damage that often associates cracked skulls.

I’m not a pretty guy and I’m no good at physical labor, if I don’t have my brains I’m out of work.




Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


It's the Taser or being beaten ! That's it ! There's nothing else. NOTHING ! My god, don't take the Taser away !

***************************************************************
Please Taser me, dude !

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:16 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You pulled the 50 million out of your ass.




Of coarse your right, only 32.9 million. That changes everthing.


"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:19 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Not even 32.9 million.

You forget that 1) populations were lower in the 1980's and there were fewer people to infect and 2) malaria has been spreading to places - including cities - where it never existed before, infecting a far larger percentage of people than ever.

It's a changing risk that driving the indoor (ie city) use of DDT. As opposed to areal spraying of large tracts that used to go on. BTW, DDT was dropped b/c the mosquitoes were becoming resistant to DDT.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force


I said no such thing- I said one third of any group is made up of fools. That means peeps that CAN make idiot decisions IF the situation arises. And OF that third there is a small abusive element- I have not worked out the percentage- so the chances of your being abused is quite small, unless you fit a perps description, or meet that one nutty cop on a deserted highway...

Precise Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:30 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
It's the Taser or being beaten ! That's it ! There's nothing else. NOTHING ! My god, don't take the Taser away !

In Chris’s world where one-third of the police force are abusive, that’s right. If you’re going to be abused would you rather be abused with a baton, which can crack your skull or a taser, which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day. I’m simply high-lighting how irrational this anti-taser stuff is. If you want to condemn police abuse, okay, but if you want to condemn the taser as a tool of totalitarianism, you're probably a few volts shy of a full zap.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:34 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force


I said no such thing- I said one third of any group is made up of fools. That means peeps that CAN make idiot decisions IF the situation arises. And OF that third there is a small abusive element- I have not worked out the percentage- so the chances of your being abused is quite small, unless you fit a perps description, or meet that one nutty cop on a deserted highway...

Okay, I misinterpreted you, but either way, I’d rather be abused with a taser instead of a baton, if I have to be abused at all, so until we can identify every officer who might be abusive, lets not encourage the use of batons when a taser will suffice. Just in case.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


taser - "which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day"

I apologize but the first thing that comes to mind is that there were only so many brains to go around in your family, and a few relatives got really short-changed.

And which one is the cop ? Isn't it illegal for ordinary citizens to have these things ? And doesn't that say something about the quality of police force ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, November 25, 2007 1:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day.
Huh. That explains a LOT.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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