Historical Trivia by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Historical Trivia

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Saturday, April 21, 2007 08:27
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Friday, April 20, 2007 2:48 PM

Instead of hate and sadness, let's take a moment for semi-serious brain crunching.
If you're not into it or not interested, just ignore this thread, but if you are.. heh heh heh..

The honorable gentleman who presides told us that, to prevent abuses in our government, we will assemble in Convention, recall our delegated powers, and punish our servants for abusing the trust reposed in them. O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone; and you have no longer an aristocratical, no longer a democratical spirit. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all? You read of a riot act in a country which is called one of the freest in the world, where a few neighbors cannot assemble without the risk of being shot by a hired soldiery, the engines of despotism. We may see such an act in America.

A standing army we shall have, also, to execute the execrable commands of tyranny; and how are you to punish them? Will you order them to be punished? Who shall obey these orders? Will your mace-bearer be a match for a disciplined regiment? In what situation are we to be? The clause before you gives a power of direct taxation, unbounded and unlimited, exclusive power of legislation, in all cases whatsoever, for ten miles square, and over all places purchased for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, &c. What resistance could be made? The attempt would be madness. You will find all the strength of this country in the hands of your enemies; their garrisons will naturally be the strongest places in the country. Your militia is given up to Congress, also, in another part of this plan: they will therefore act as they think proper: all power will be in their own possession. You cannot force them to receive their punishment: of what service would militia be to you, when, most probably, you will not have a single musket in the state? for, as arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them.

Let me here call your attention to that part which gives the Congress power "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States — reserving to the states, respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress." By this, sir, you see that their control over our last and best defence is unlimited. If they neglect or refuse to discipline or arm our militia, they will be useless: the states can do neither — this power being exclusively given to Congress. The power of appointing officers over men not disciplined or armed is ridiculous; so that this pretended little remains of power left to the states may, at the pleasure of Congress, be rendered nugatory. Our situation will be deplorable indeed: nor can we ever expect to get this government amended, since I have already shown that a very small minority may prevent it, and that small minority interested in the continuance of the oppression. Will the oppressor let go the oppressed? Was there ever an instance? Can the annals of mankind exhibit one single example where rulers overcharged with power willingly let go the oppressed, though solicited and requested most earnestly? The application for amendments will therefore be fruitless. Sometimes, the oppressed have got loose by one of those bloody struggles that desolate a country; but a willing relinquishment of power is one of those things which human nature never was, nor ever will be, capable of.

===========

This Constitution is said to have beautiful features; but when I come to examine these features, sir, they appear to me horribly frightful. Among other deformities, it has an awful squinting; it squints towards monarchy; and does not this raise indignation in the breast of every true American?

Your President may easily become king. Your Senate is so imperfectly constructed that your dearest rights may be sacrificed by what may be a small minority; and a very small minority may continue forever unchangeably this government, although horridly defective. Where are your checks in this government? Your strongholds will be in the hands of your enemies. It is on a supposition that your American governors shall be honest, that all the good qualities of this government are founded; but its defective and imperfect construction puts it in their power to perpetrate the worst of mischiefs, should they be bad men; and, sir, would not all the world, from the eastern to the western hemisphere, blame our distracted folly in resting our rights upon the contingency of our rulers being good or bad? Show me that age and country where the rights and liberties of the people were placed on the sole chance of their rulers being good men, without a consequent loss of liberty! I say that the loss of that dearest privilege has ever followed, with absolute certainty, every such mad attempt.

If your American chief be a man of ambition and abilities, how easy is it for him to render himself absolute! The army is in his hands, and if he be a man of address, it will be attached to him, and it will be the subject of long meditation with him to seize the first auspicious moment to accomplish his design; and, sir, will the American spirit solely relieve you when this happens? I would rather infinitely — and I am sure most of this Convention are of the same opinion — have a king, lords, and commons, than a government so replete with such insupportable evils. If we make a king, we may prescribe the rules by which he shall rule his people, and interpose such checks as shall prevent him from infringing them; but the President, in the field, at the head of his army, can prescribe the terms on which he shall reign master, so far that it will puzzle any American ever to get his neck from under the galling yoke. I cannot with patience think of this idea. If ever he violates the laws, one of two things will happen: he will come at the head of his army, to carry every thing before him; or he will give bail, or do what Mr. Chief Justice will order him. If he be guilty, will not the recollection of his crimes teach him to make one bold push for the American throne? Will not the immense difference between being master of every thing, and being ignominiously tried and punished, powerfully excite him to make this bold push? But, sir, where is the existing force to punish him? Can he not, at the head of his army, beat down every opposition? Away with your President! we shall have a king: the army will salute him monarch: your militia will leave you, and assist in making him king, and fight against you: and what have you to oppose this force? What will then become of you and your rights? Will not absolute despotism ensue?

Three Questions.
WHO ?
WHEN ?
WHY ?

Bonus Question: Why is this relevant in a contemporary sense ?

-F

PS - And yes, in a blank honor sense, Google would be "cheating" and while no one could stop you, but then would 'winning' then be worth anything ?

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Friday, April 20, 2007 3:09 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Instead of hate and sadness, let's take a moment for semi-serious brain crunching.
If you're not into it or not interested, just ignore this thread, but if you are.. heh heh heh..

I believe it was a fellow named Henry...from Virginia if I recall...

H

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Friday, April 20, 2007 4:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wonderful words. I'm afraid to say that I'd be cheating if I said the who and when, so I'll just refrain from Googleing and wait for somebody to give the right answers. History wasn't an interest for me througout school and I'm just now beginning to learn about it. I'm not even sure of the why, though I know that you know I have a pretty good idea generally why somebody would feel the need to address these issues.

As for their relevance today... well it's all around us. There really is almost nothing that I can say about it without sounding like a nutjob, so I'll just say that the similiarities are right in the faces of anyone who really wants to see them. I just wish that anybody saying anything similar today was taken seriously by anybody.

I'm suspecting you may have posted this Frem after my post about protecting our right to bear arms in the Cho thread and my references to Waco, Kent State and Elian Gonzalez and why we cannot rely on our own government for protection after we've allowed them to disarm us.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, April 20, 2007 10:05 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Congressman Ron Paul, referring to King George II, 2007?

Today was the anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord to start the US Revolutionary War (British Colonial American Civil War). That battle was fought by Americans to stop the British king from confiscating 50-caliber musket assault rifles.

This week, Dennis Kucinich, the man who would be president, introduced a bill in Congress to ban all handguns from citizen ownership, as well as all 22-caliber semiautos and semiauto shotguns. Never mind that revolvers are just as fast, and mafia hitmen prefer 22-caliber revolvers and doublebarrel shotguns, because they don't leave shells and bullets behind as evidence.

Quote:

“'It is becoming painfully obvious that the easy availability of handguns constituents a growing national crisis of public health and safety, one that calls for a powerful, wide-ranging response from Congress.' Kucinich is currently drafting legislation that would ban the purchase, sale, transfer, or possession of handguns by civilians. A gun buy-back provision will be included in the bill."
—Dennis J. Kucinich, Member of Congress, Kucinich Offers Comprehensive Plan to Address Violence in America - The Level of Violence in Society Constitutes a National Emergency; Hand Gun Law Prepared, April 18, 2007
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=62819

Vote for Congressman Dr Ron Paul for president in 2008
www.myspace.com/congressmanronpaul

"In a surprise move, a House panel voted today to repeal a state law that forbids the carrying of handguns on property and buildings owned by state, county and city governments — including parks and playgrounds. 'I think the recent Virginia disaster — or catastrophe or nightmare or whatever you want to call it — has woken up a lot of people to the need for having guns available to law-abiding citizens,' said Rep. Frank Niceley, R-Strawberry Plains. 'I hope that is what this vote reflects.'"
-Knoxville News Sentinel, "Tennessee moves to allow guns in public buildings," April 20, 2007
www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_5491437,00.html

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks. The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people. It is their right and duty to be at all times armed. No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-President Thomas Jefferson

Without googling, it sounds like the anti Federalists versus the Constitution, refusing to sign that adhesion contract uless the Bill of Rights was added, including the guaranteed right of all freemen to carry loaded firearms at all times, including inside all govt buildings and schools.

Watching Red Dawn last night, I can't remember the last time I saw a pickup truck with a 30-06 in the rear window... Wouldn't that make for an interesting traffic stop? Or would the Sheriff of Nottingham wait for an unarmed victim before suing a traffic ticket?

This month, I challenge all of YOU to walk to your local city hall or county commission, no matter what nation you are in, and make a 5 minute public speech during public forum, about any topic you choose. AND KICK THEIR ASS, so to speak. It's a fun night on the town. Then post your video on Youtube or Google Video, and let us critique it.

One of my public speeches to gangsta govt, er, city council (our Skull & Bones mayor and city council were called "EVIL" in a newspaper interview by a disgruntled city councilor):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6410549186072180914&hl=en

True answer - Patrick Henry?
www.infowars.com/articles/2nd_amendment/quotes_from_founding_fathers_2
nd_amendment_applies_to_individual.htm

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 1:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Hero bags question #1.

Patrick Henry.

Jack bags up the bonus question

Although it wasn't directed at any specific right, but rather the lack of protections beyond simple trust in those we elect not to shaft us, the issues facing us now are those touched upon in Mr. Henry's speech, about the lack of provisions for when you call the government on abuse, and they tell you where to stick it.

Primary modern case in point is the Justice Dept's defiance on the matter of subpeanos issued to them and their failure to comply, the question of "What now?" raises it's ugly head, and foreshadows a possible conflict in that possibility of some president, current OR future, being impeached, and then refusing to comply with said impeachment, and countering via his position as commander in chief of the armed forces.

This issue was never properly resolved then, and I hope we never have to see to it's resolution in the future.

Piratenews bags questions #2 & #3.

These speeches come from the debates just prior to the ratification of the US Constitution, and from the Anti-Federalist side in the person of Patrick Henry

They felt it would concentrate too much power in the hands of a small minority that had the potential to become a de-facto Oligarcy and remain so, thus abusing that authority against the general populace, and with weak protections against infringments of the rights of the individual this was guaranteed to happen, and quickly so.

The Bill of Rights was a compromise measure to pacify these individuals, but it was never felt sufficient - Benjamin Franklin remarked that yes, they could have done better but they were fast running out of time, and yes this government would fall to corruption, and yet he felt great faith in the american people to throw it out when and should that happen.

Mr. Henry scoffed at the idea, because the government under this document would remove, gradually, the ability of the people to do so.

So, the score.

Hero: 1
Jack: 1
Piratenews: 2

PN takes the victory today.

If you wanna play again, I can try to dig up slightly more obscure stuff, but it'd help if someone expressed interest in specific historical topics we could explore - who knows, you might learn something.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
This month, I challenge all of YOU to walk to your local city hall or county commission, no matter what nation you are in, and make a 5 minute public speech during public forum, about any topic you choose. AND KICK THEIR ASS, so to speak.

Then this one would amuse you greatly.

This podunk little town has a fairly small school, your typical size high school building, and sufficient in it's use that it has empty classrooms at times.

Now, ponder that, EMPTY classrooms, as compared to an inner city school where they sometimes have to make do with closets!

And so our city council wants a property tax millage, stacks it on an upcoming vote and words it in such a way that it's almost a blank check, once you strip the legalese and doubletalk from it.

Like. Bloody. Hell.

First thing, they've already got a build plan, which strikes me as odd, and even odder that golly-gee, all the city council folk have familiar or financial interest in the folks who would be doing on the building, what a surprising coincidence, don'tcha think ?

And the build plan is worse.. what friggin school in a podunk little town with a population of well under 1000 people needs a school with EIGHT, that's right, count em, EIGHT tennis courts, eh ?

AND they plan to build it in the district south of here, not even in our district so we would have to pay an additional stipend to THAT district to send our kids there, to the school OUR money built, right ?

Oh it gets better, they'd be able to send theirs to said school without paying one red cent for it's construction or it's use, while we get raped on property tax millages for it, and if it gets crowded or isn't large enough, then our kids get bounced and we have no school, and no money - and they'd do what, why of course build *another* school, or renovate the one we have, off that 'blank check' millage increase.

And so, they go around touting this "for education" and trying to shame anyone who stood against it by saying they were against education and didn't care about our students yadda yadda...

And so an enterprising fellow decided to visit the council meeting, but oh of course it was moved without notice, and of course the doors for the public were chained shut "for security reasons" as they don't want anyone but their sycophantic buttkisser platoon in there, obviously.

Did I mention that these events are televised on our local cable channel, hmm ?

And so, some fellow slipped into the building regardless and evaded the security intended to keep the public OUT of said public meeting and crashed it, calling for his legal right to the speaking floor by ambush, more or less - said right was given immediately in part due to shock, and in part likely due to the fellows obvious will to self-enforce should it be refused.

Then followed an eighteen minute speech so damning that two of the councilmembers felt the need to hide their faces, and one left the room, shamed by a local citizen verbally shattering their nefarious plan in no uncertain terms.
(Bear says I would have made a hell of a preacher, good ole fire and brimstone and all that rot..)

In spite of this, said measure remained on the ballot till V-day, whereupon it was voted DOWN by a 96% majority against it.

City officials blamed "Lack of Voter Education" on the measures failure and agreed amongst themselves to draw funds from the property taxes to set up a "Voter Education" (Read: Propaganda) campaign for the next round, when they would stick it on the ballot again.

Said fellow then crashed their offices with fifteen highly esteemed local pillars of the community in tow and asked politely to see their authority to use tax proceeds for this purpose - a request met with much sputtering and verbal fumbling.

Further communications of that meeting shall remain private, but suffice it to say, said measure died a horrible, gruesome death with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And if they ever work up the nerve to stick it on the ballot again, the NEXT speech is going to be a cry for a recall of said officials.

Citizens: 1
Harper Valley PTA: 0
(yes, that's my pet name for the city council, and they got the exact same treatment.)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 6:55 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

I think this is an interesting thread. I had no idea what the answer was since my historical interests are generally pre-rennaisance but still very informative. And very relevant.

And Frem...Wow. Nice Story. Much admiration for said enterprising fellow. On a side note, the topic of schoools new and old just gets me all sorts of upset. See, I live in Michigan. All I ever hear about public schools is that another one is closing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 7:45 AM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And so our city council wants a property tax millage, stacks it on an upcoming vote and words it in such a way that it's almost a blank check, once you strip the legalese and doubletalk from it.

Sounds familiar. Here in Lane county the commissioners put a county income tax on the ballot, and when it failed they went ahead and enacted it anyway. The outrage was enough to get people working on recalling the commissioners, who were shocked that the voters would dare even consider such a thing

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Saturday, April 21, 2007 8:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Kayna: This was michigan, one of them podunk little burgs between detroit and ann arbor, and yes, in many places our education budget is taking a beating, but not here, fortunately, as yet, and while main street looks a bit like a washboard I can live with that till we raise the money to have an actual contractor fix it instead of come councilmans uncle for 150% more.

Eric: We've had that problem too, but as a rule, michigan, especially this area of it, is awful damn quick with a recall, the problem is our pool of willing candidates are prettymuch a bunch of corrupt scoundrels of the worst order, no one who WANTS the job should be allowed to do it, in my opinion.

Worst case was Sumpter Townships Elmer Parraghi, better known around here as "Elmer FUD" because his very name invoked Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

This is a guy who came close to a knife duel while in office and had a mutual restraining order with an assistant who worked in the same building, and allowed canadian dumping of trash in his township over the nearly unanimous resistance of his township because it personally profited him - the put the boot in his ass May 6th 2003, in spite of the fact that barely 10% of the locals could be bothered to vote on it since anyone willing to replace him would be just as much a jackass.

I also get on the case of Dingell and Conyers on a regular basis, Levin is a lost cause, bought and paid for, and Conyers lacks a spine, but while Dingell is a stubborn bastard, he's *our* stubborn bastard and I can deal with him.

Poor Jenny, stuck with the disaster Engler handed us on the way out, not to mention the economic devastation this administration has heaped upon us... MI is hanging on by it's fingernails and I think we all know it.

My personal pet hatred for Engler was giving Metrocars, the slimiest, least safe, scummiest cab company in the state, an exclusive no-bid contract with exclusive airport rights and a massive advance on his way out of office.

The only good that came out of that was them finally firing the druggies and boozers they had piloting their fleet, but they had to hire outsiders cause no one HERE would work for them, and of course replacing the dangerous scrapheaps they were pushing with new cabs.

Downside of that is between that and exclusive airport rights, they're virtually *destroyed* the rest of the cab industry, especially in light of the high gas prices and unholy taxes we gotta pay on so slim a profit margin to begin with - and I won't drive for Metro, I'll toss my old checker cap in a fire before I stoop that low.

Ok, maybe i'm ranting a little, but believe me, I have my boot *firmly* up the ass of our local politicos on a rather consistent basis, and I wish more folk would take the time and effort to do so, sometimes the only check and balance you HAVE locally, when they have the courts and the cops on their side, is the threat of a very real asswhuppin or at least an unfortunate accident.

You may not be able to influance the big officials so very much, but putting the strong arm on your locals is a good start, and hell, if you think YOU can do it, run for the job yourself!

Something to think about anyhows.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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