Nooalf Discussion by m52nickerson

rezident owtsidr

You coud keep asking specific questionz till I hav rewritten the entire site here. The X and x for the 2 TH soundz iz explained on the LOJIK page better than I coud off the top uv my hed here.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 8:29 AM

DALEK!

Find it, de-convert it, and post it.

If you ever hope for this to be taken seriously your answers to questions such as this can't be "download my font and try to decode this page."

You should also know it backwards, forwards, and upside fucking down.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 1:23 AM

rezident owtsidr

Tried to find sum uv the specific exchanjez in the saundspel forum, but they were way back in the late 90z, early 2000z. And the place alwayz wuz hard to navigate.

[url] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/msearch_adv]

I hav had conversationz in email, in forumz, on the fone and in person with hundredz uv people on this subject. I dont hav a perfect memory, so cant say who, where, or wen the 2 or 3 Ph.D.z were.

Closest I can get for you iz Dr. David Boulton at [url] http://www.childrenofthecode.org/] Had a dozen or so conversationz with him over the yirz.

About Digrafs. They are bad lojik.

TH, for example, iz essentailly a set uv statements:

1. T immediately befor H duz not make the T sound
2. H immediately after T duz not make the H sound
3. T and H imediatly next to each other in that order makes the X sound.

But the stoopid just keeps bilding frum there!

TH makes both the X and x soundz and there are a number uv wordz in which they do not make either sound!

But why X ?

Sum uv the advantajez are:

1. Simple, only 2 linez for x and 3 for X.
2. Distinctiv. Hard to mistake for other letterz, even in poor conditionz.
3. Alredy available, or similar.
4. No solid sound association in traditional spelling, making forward compatability eazier.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 5:00 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Tried to find sum uv the specific exchanjez in the saundspel forum, but they were way back in the late 90z, early 2000z. And the place alwayz wuz hard to navigate.

[url] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/msearch_adv]

I hav had conversationz in email, in forumz, on the fone and in person with hundredz uv people on this subject. I dont hav a perfect memory, so cant say who, where, or wen the 2 or 3 Ph.D.z were.

Closest I can get for you iz Dr. David Boulton at [url] http://www.childrenofthecode.org/] Had a dozen or so conversationz with him over the yirz.

Unfortunately your word is simply not good enough in a debate. You can't makes statements such as you did and expect anyone to simply believe you.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:About Digrafs. They are bad lojik.

TH, for example, iz essentailly a set uv statements:

1. T immediately befor H duz not make the T sound
2. H immediately after T duz not make the H sound
3. T and H imediatly next to each other in that order makes the X sound.

But the stoopid just keeps bilding frum there!

TH makes both the X and x soundz and there are a number uv wordz in which they do not make either sound!

But why X ?

Sum uv the advantajez are:

1. Simple, only 2 linez for x and 3 for X.
2. Distinctiv. Hard to mistake for other letterz, even in poor conditionz.
3. Alredy available, or similar.
4. No solid sound association in traditional spelling, making forward compatability eazier.

Well the first thing is your description of the rule is far more complicated than it really is. You only need a single rule.

"TH" together makes a [ð] (the th in this) sound or an [?] (th in thin) sound.

"TH" basically becomes its own symbol, and the sounds it represents are very close. In fact just learning that "TH" makes a [ð] sound is enough for people to be able to use it effectively.

The only advantage that using X and x has is that they are single letters, but that is not much of one and certainly not enough make a whole sale change.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:20 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This is an interesting discussion.

I think that invented languages can be designed which are more efficient (than English) for the skilled user. There have been various attempts throughout history.

I think the ability to raise children into a society where the language is in use is very useful in its proliferation. One can imagine a colony all electing to use the language, and their children growing up learning it first, and using it readily and instinctively.

This thing being discussed isn't quite an invented language, but rather an invented way to represent a language. But I think the principles and problems are the same.

The average person has no real incentive to learn and employ this thing in their daily lives. It is not useful outside the circle of code adherents. It is a lot like learning Klingon.

Something someone might do for fun or as a hobby, but not as likely to catch on large-scale because the average person will not have interest in adopting it. The effort is better spent elsewhere.

In my opinion.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, November 7, 2012 9:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

JO753

The argument is that it's supposed to be intuitive and easy. The problem for me is that I have to sound out every word I don't recognize, almost always more than once. It's as time-consuming as reading license plates and trying to figure them out, but not as entertaining. Anyway, that makes reading VERY slow, as a result of the slowness and difficulty I find I read very few of the alternately-spelled posts.

I have sympathy for a person who has personally found the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and just can't wait to share the revelation with the world. But it doesn't seem to generate a lot of meaning in others, and that fact just isn't getting any traction.

Also, when someone claims they're a mechanical genius, the first thing I want to ask for is proof - show me what you have built that's so awesome. Without proof, it comes across as a wild claim that detracts from the credibility of the claimant.

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 2:20 AM

rezident owtsidr

See, M52? Anthony gets it!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
The argument is that it's supposed to be intuitive and easy. The problem for me is that I have to sound out every word I don't recognize, almost always more than once.

How fast coud you read wen you were in kindergarten? Like any skill, practice makes iit eazy. I'v been writing this partly fonetisized junk for 7 yirz in the Skeptics Forum and most uv the memberz dont mind anymore.

Quote:
I have sympathy for a person who has personally found the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and just can't wait to share the revelation with the world. But it doesn't seem to generate a lot of meaning in others, and that fact just isn't getting any traction.

Revolutionz are rarely eazy. Even wen they happen by themselvez with everybodyz willing participation (such az the internet), therez a bunch uv work and long established institutionz bekum obsolete.

Quote:
show me what you have built that's so awesome.

A tall order, since its difficult to explain the difference between sumthing accomplished thru ordinary engineering skill and the rezult uv talent.

I coud tell you about my best example that illustrates the contrast, but that woud just be more text on your screen.

If you hav the patience to try to really understand it, this iz a good example:[url] http://www.zolkorp.com/TRiSeK.html]

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 6:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I was tempted to say something snarky about your claim to talent being a failed geometry device.

But then I realized that to even attempt such a failure required more skill than I possess.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 4:56 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Well the first thing is your description of the rule is far more complicated than it really is. You only need a single rule.

"TH" together makes a [ð] (the th in this) sound or an [?] (th in thin) sound.

"TH" basically becomes its own symbol...

Try putting that in a computer program. It will crash into itself instantly.

This is what I'm talking about. Traditional English spelling conditions children to accept nonsence while their minds and brains are in the crucial formative years.

I didnt even list all the problems with the digraph idea. Theres a very big and very obvious wun. 50 quatlooz to the 1st person to state it here!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:06 PM

rezident owtsidr

Anthony, I dont expect sumwun to hav the same knowledge and skillz that I do in order to critisize sumthing I hav dun or sed. If you hav a lojikl argument, it warrants consideration.

The TRiSeKTOTRoN wuz a fairly eazy project. Didnt even need a skech. If you appreciate feats uv craftsmanship, hav a look at the RoGIToR [url] http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html]

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 5:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Like any skill, practice makes iit eazy."

But you have failed to answer the big question - why should I bother?

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Thursday, November 8, 2012 8:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Anthony, I dont expect sumwun to hav the same knowledge and skillz that I do in order to critisize sumthing I hav dun or sed. If you hav a lojikl argument, it warrants consideration.

The TRiSeKTOTRoN wuz a fairly eazy project. Didnt even need a skech. If you appreciate feats uv craftsmanship, hav a look at the RoGIToR [url] http://www.zolkorp.com/RoGIToR.html]

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

Hello,

It's too bad you aren't a sword maker.

If we imagine the many things a person could invest time and effort learning, we will find that many things have more immediate and larger payoffs than learning this alternative spelling mechanism.

I move in communities that relish manufactured languages, so I understand the appeal. But it would be unreasonable to expect the common person to take an interest in this, in my opinion.

If being clearly understood is the goal, I'd restrict use of this spelling mechanism to fellow hobbyists and enthusiasts. The rest of us will only be frustrated in trying to decipher what you write.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, November 9, 2012 1:05 AM

rezident owtsidr

The real ansr to the big question iz that you dont need to, NIKI. You dont percieve a handicap if everybody haz it. Therez a complete ansr on paje 2 uv the website.

The main motive sumwun who iz literate woud hav iz self improvement. Learning Nooalf iz very eazy, so its almost like being able to pick up another language in a week.

The main reazon people in general shoud learn Nooalf iz to help the next generation.

Anthony, I dont recall ever hearing frum any uv the created language enthuziasts, unless you count Esperanto. I've occasionally gotten comments frum Star Trek fanz in Klingoneze, but they were just messing around.

Funny you mentioned sordz. My brother and I used to make minature sordz wen we wer kidz, hammering them out uv nailz. Got kinda fancy with colorful thred rapt handlz and jewelz embeded in the hand gardz.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 9, 2012 1:23 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Try putting that in a computer program. It will crash into itself instantly.

This is what I'm talking about. Traditional English spelling conditions children to accept nonsence while their minds and brains are in the crucial formative years.

I didnt even list all the problems with the digraph idea. Theres a very big and very obvious wun. 50 quatlooz to the 1st person to state it here!

Sorry, computers can deal with this. http://wikspeak.en.softonic.com/

It's not nonsense, but a pretty simple rule. No more complicated than yours.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Friday, November 9, 2012 2:02 AM

rezident owtsidr

The common assesment that its just not worth the effort to change haz popped up a few timez here.

"It's not about making sense. It's about believing in something." - Shepard Book.

The unfortunate side effect of the educational methods used to teach spelling to children is that it becomez like a religion to them.

Like the Bible, it iz wut it iz. Its above being questioned and certainly not to be 'fixed'. Dictionaryz serve az biblez for all questionz regarding wordz, and the spelling iz the most elementary aspect.

Most uv the people who hav chozen to debate me on Nooalf, even many uv my fellow reformerz, begin with the notion that I hav no idea uv the magnitude uv the undertaking.

They are not only mistaken about my awareness, they are themselvez failing to understand the fundamental reazonz there iz so much rezistence.

Unlike religion, ritten language iz an essential part uv civilization. Societyz can rize without it. Civilizationz can not. At least not with the limitationz uv our speciez.

How fast and how well, maybe even how far a civilization can go iz dependent on the quality uv its language. A big part uv that quality iz the spelling system.

Yall here woud luv to know that sumthing like the Firefly story coud happen sum day. Obviously, its entirely dependent on the development uv gravity control and powerful, efficient space drivez.

You probably hav a notion that its only a matter uv hard working, well educated scientists putting the piecez uv the puzzle together and hard working, well educated engineerz figuring out the mechanics uv it.

Not likely.

Revolutionary ideaz nearly alwayz come from the freaks. The outsiderz who havent followed the beaten path. The dyslexics who struggled in gradeskool, but took to math and science like ducks to water.

Sorta like the movie Good Will Hunting, the guy who coud possibly figure out antigravity or sum fundamental truth uv the universe coud be mopping floorz rite now, just bekuz hez dyslexic and coudnt handle the kaos uv english.

Maybe I'll never get anywhere with Nooalf. But I say its worth it to try.

its ubowt making sens & beleving in sumxing.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 9, 2012 4:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Anthony, I dont recall ever hearing frum any uv the created language enthuziasts, unless you count Esperanto. I've occasionally gotten comments frum Star Trek fanz in Klingoneze, but they were just messing around.

Hello,

Don't dismiss Klingon language speakers as just messing around! It's true they are hobbyists enjoying themselves, but many take the study and use of the language quite seriously. It is a real language with real grammar and spelling rules and there is even a Klingon language institute organization that discusses the language and its use.

You will also find adherents to Tolkien's Elven tongue, a language he invented while writing the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

But what all of these people know, and what Esperanto speakers didn't understand, is that languages are evolutionary, not revolutionary. You can make a language (or language system) for the use of a few interested parties, but you can not make a language or language system and expect wide adoption.

People who speak a language, even one you consider to be inefficient, are not 'handicapped' or 'disabled' in the sense you perceive. They are using a tool that evolved naturally in the context of their culture over countless generations. It is a living, breathing organism of history. It is not something that will commonly be dumped in favor of someone's carefully calculated efficiency improvement.

Perhaps someday language will evolve to adopt a better spelling or grammar mechanism, but evolution is the key. You can't skip to the end. Moreover, there is no end. Language, and its use, will evolve forever.

Today's 'Text Speak,' which shares similarities to the language system you propose (by discarding rules of grammar or spelling for efficient communication), evolved due to the need to write compactly and in short timeframes with one or two digits. It is widely adopted for this reason, and it will further change and evolve as the texting devices we use change, and our needs change with them.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, November 9, 2012 11:37 PM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Don't dismiss Klingon language speakers as just messing around!

I'm not. The Trekkiez who rote their little Klingonese quips weren't really serious about the language. They just used a translator or had a quick look at [url] http://www.omniglot.com/writing/klingon.htm].

I like the Klingon alfabet. Looks like they did a good job uv making the letterz distinctiv. Vey pretty font also.

Quote:
But what all of these people know, and what Esperanto speakers didn't understand, is that languages are evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Actually, Esperanto haz evolved since its creation. [url] http://uea.org/info/angle/an_ghisdatigo.html]

Quote:
People who speak a language, even one you consider to be inefficient, are not 'handicapped' or 'disabled' in the sense you perceive.

We are handicapped. Most people are rite or left handed, incapable uv memorizing thingz without multiple repeats, cant interpolate more than 3 elements to figure thingz out, can't survive without teknolojikl aid in common terrestrial conditionz.

You are thinking uv only the relative perspectiv for 'handicap'.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 10, 2012 4:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Actually, Esperanto haz evolved since its creation. http://uea.org/info/angle/an_ghisdatigo.html]

Hello,

So has Klingon. But these are not things that evolved in their own right. They were created. Then they were tinkered with by hobbyists and to fill niche needs. ('To be' had to be added to the Klingon lexicon to fill a specific need that had nothing to do with the natural evolution of language.)

Quote:

We are handicapped. Most people are rite or left handed, incapable uv memorizing thingz without multiple repeats, cant interpolate more than 3 elements to figure thingz out, can't survive without teknolojikl aid in common terrestrial conditionz.

You are thinking uv only the relative perspectiv for 'handicap'.

This is inaccurate. People are well suited to their environment and the tasks they regularly perform. These are not handicaps, but adaptations to reality. People can not generally lift the front end of cars off of the ground. There is no need in our society for this skill. But some hobbyists can do it.

People can not generally make a fire without modern tools (as was illustrated in the movie Castaway) but hobbyists and people who need to survive in the wild can do it. We simply adapt and learn to do what we need to do when we need to do it.

What you perceive as a 'handicap' is another way of saying 'I have no pressing need for this in my life.'

Which is an excellent way to describe your invented language device.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Saturday, November 10, 2012 8:31 AM

HKCAVALIER

Yes, Anthony,

Evolution, not revolution. The whole project qua project is effed from the get. The only way this would catch on is if it were imposed and it's not gonna be imposed.

And if it WERE imposed, tomorrow, on the next generation of kids it would render ALL of previous literature, all contemporary writing more foreign than Shakespeare is to us today.

I'm thinking of The Handmaid's Tale. The main character's name is Offred. When we pick up the book, we don't know what it means. Just some science fictional future name. My first sense of its meaning was as some terrible neo-puritanical name derived from "offered" or sacrificed. In Shakespeare's time the word "offered" was pronounced "off'red." Only later did it dawn on me that it was the terrible dehumanizing "Of Fred."

So we're gonna translate "Offred" into JO's language how? The ambiguity of its pronunciation is quite conscious and intentional, part of its beauty, its genius. So, is it "Uvfred" or "Ofred?"

I understand how kneejerk folk can be about disparaging anything outside the norm, but some of the resistance to JO's scheme is quite personal and logical.

But, y'know what's funny? We're going to see (possibly even in our lifetime to some extent) the language move pretty radically toward JO-speak. It'll happen when all our tech goes voice activated. When everything's voice activated and reader programs sound like actual humans and not 50's robots, spelling and writing will become more like hobbies than rules of survival. Most people will live their lives in a wholly oral tradition. Written English will be relegated to college courses and typing will be as rare (or as common) a skill as computer programming. But even then, the simplification of English spelling will prolly remain ad hoc and unofficial. Spelling will simply be less relevant in a fully verbalized culture.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:31 PM

rezident owtsidr

I agree that thats a strong possibilty, HK.

The speech to text software available now duz a good job. Its probably possible now to make a vision system that coud read for sumwun az they drive if they are illiterate.

And sum uv the computerized fone menu thingz I've heard lately are very lifelike.

Youre missing the point, Anthony. Do you not agree that being ambidexterous iz an advantage?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 6:19 AM

DALEK!

Not having an advantage is not the same as being handicapped.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 11, 2012 7:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Youre missing the point, Anthony. Do you not agree that being ambidexterous iz an advantage?

Hello,

I have lived for more than 1,872 weeks.

Being ambidextrous would have provided a distinct advantage to me for precisely 6 of those weeks.

In other news...

Being able to shoot six people with a firearm in six seconds is an advantage in some circumstances.

But zero weeks of my life required that skill.

Being able to play chess against 10 opponents simultaneously is an advantage in some circumstances.

But zero weeks of my life required that skill.

A cheetah runs faster than I do, and so do Olympic sprinters, but I have never needed or wanted such ability. If nooalf could cure my asthma, I might learn it.

Not everything that would be an 'advantage' is useful or practical or provides enough of an advantage in my life to be worthwhile. Generally, if something provides an advantage in my life, it becomes part of my skill-set without any revolutionary conversions or convincing.

I learn it because I need to.

The only other time I learn anything is because it pleases me, gives me joy.

Unfortunately, your invented language device does neither. And incidentally, I can't believe you spelled 'eyes' as 'az.' I had to deduce from context. This is the kind of thing that makes the language device inefficient with the general population. Learning new language rules would not make my life easier. It would not bring me joy. It would take time and effort for no practical reward.

I suspect many people are in my position. But if the language device gives you joy or fills some need in your life, I encourage you to enjoy it and use it. Just know that your manner of writing is less efficient with the rest of us.

As for spreading the word and making conversions, Jehovas Witnesses will have more success.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 10:41 AM

rezident owtsidr

az = as.

Still not getting the handicap/advantage thing.

Suppoze you broke your good arm during a fite with your
mortal enemy. If you had to throw a grenade, aim a gun, swing a heavy club or wutever to win or at least keep him frum winning, you'd be outa luck.
Your 'lack of relative advantage' woud prove fatal.

Wut you arent getting iz the distinction between a relative disadvantage and a handicap. Just bekuz everybody haz a problem duznt mean its not a problem anymore.

Herez sumthing to consider: This point iz utterly obvious to me. But you guyz dont seem to be able to rap your mindz around it. Maybe leaarning Nooalf will improve your lojik!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 10:55 AM

DALEK!

...or your view is the illogical one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, November 11, 2012 3:54 PM

rezident owtsidr

Dunning-Kruger iznt about lojik, its about mispercieving your own or sumwun elsez level uv competence in something.

Exageration iz the microspope uv lojik. So let me try a more extreem example.

Lets say everybody gets their armz cut off at the elbo and legz at the nee wen they are born. (sum crazy religious thing in the future)

Not having complete armz and legz woud not be a disadvantage in that situation bekuz everybody woudnt hav complete armz and legz. Everything woud be set up to accomidate this condition. Nobody woud be expected to be able to run, jump, grab thingz, write, throw thingz, etc etc etc.

But, everybody coud know wut they are missing.

If a machine haz featurez that shoud enable it to perform a function, yet it cant, that meanz it iz not working properly.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:02 PM

HKCAVALIER

But, JO, language isn't a machine. It is an art.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, November 12, 2012 8:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
If a machine haz featurez that shoud enable it to perform a function, yet it cant, that meanz it iz not working properly.

Hello,

If I wanted to make a list of all the things a human has proved capable of, but which I could not accomplish myself, I would be at it for a very long while.

And that has nothing to do with my spelling or grammar.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, November 12, 2012 11:32 PM

rezident owtsidr

Its both, HK. Spelling iz teknolojy.

And wuts artistic about having spelling dictated by tradition and enforsed by everybody like the Taliban?

If you want to talk artistic, Nooalf allowz you to create new wordz and be confident that readerz will know wut the pronunciation you intended iz. A sifi riter coud create a whole new dialect or even a language and everybody woud hav a good idea wut they sound like without having to make a career out uv studying a new pronunciation key.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:00 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
If you want to talk artistic, Nooalf allowz you to create new wordz and be confident that readerz will know wut the pronunciation you intended iz.

That can be done without nooalf. The internet has proven that long ago.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
And wuts artistic about having spelling dictated by tradition and enforsed by everybody like the Taliban?

Hello,

This nooalf has its own spelling dictated by 'traditions' being put into place now. That whole x thing you mentioned earlier. I know what Th sounds like, but because of nooalf's arbitrary traditions I need to redefine X and substitute?

Oppressive. ;-)

-Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:15 AM

rezident owtsidr

How did the internet prove that, M52? You are implying that the pronunciation keys in dictionaryz arent needed.

There are many wordz, usually compoundz, that hav th and it duznt make the X or x sound, Anthony.

You are both arguing hopeless pozitionz. And nobodyz taken a shot at that 50 quatloo prize yet! Seriously, its not that difficult if you reeeellllyyy think about it for a few minits.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:27 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
How did the internet prove that, M52? You are implying that the pronunciation keys in dictionaryz arent needed.

Hello,

Pronunciation keys? Some way of accurately rendering the sounds of words?

Is there a mechanism that does this?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:32 AM

rezident owtsidr

Quote:
Sorry, computers can deal with this. http://wikspeak.en.softonic.com/]

Didnt say computerz cant handle pronunciation. I sed your single TH rule iz not sufficient. Basic aljebra.

You are confuzing a lojik statement for a complete program. If you look at the source code for that you will probably find an entire dictionary with cross referenced equivelent pronunciation ritten in the IPA shown there. Du.

Plus, why iz the sample word incorrect?!

A couple uv programmerz tried to write a rule based program to spell english back in the 90z. They gave up after more than 600 rulez failed to work, realizing they mite az will just do an equivelency list.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:02 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
How did the internet prove that, M52? You are implying that the pronunciation keys in dictionaryz arent needed.

Is it really hard to understand that new words are made up and spelled how they sound? Pretty sure 99% of the people that read it know how to say a word like "noob".

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
There are many wordz, usually compoundz, that hav th and it duznt make the X or x sound, Anthony.

Which ones?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You are both arguing hopeless pozitionz. And nobodyz taken a shot at that 50 quatloo prize yet! Seriously, its not that difficult if you reeeellllyyy think about it for a few minits.

You are the Dunning–Kruger poster child. Your argument boils down to "I'm right and you will see that if you really, really think about it".

It is pretty insulting that you think Anthony and I are not putting thought into this. More so when we are not the ones hand waving arguments away.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Friday, November 16, 2012 12:14 PM

rezident owtsidr

Noob. Good example. Notice how 'good' iz spelt?

There are a few more wayz you coud spell that and most people will pronounce it the same. newb, nube, probably even knube and gnube etc. since everybodyz used to silent initial k and g.

Again, you are arguing against sumthing I never sed. And again, your argument fits rite in the 'there iz no problem' class.

Tried to think uv sum non X or x TH wordz, but I'm not very good at recalling examplez. Found a compound word list that appeared to be totally random and found sweetheart and courthouse.

I didnt say you guyz arent putting any thought into this. I'm saying that your thoughts are rong.

Therez a line in Men In Black thats pertinent to how people try to defend their beliefs. Agent K sez "Human thought iz considered a dezeaze in sum uv the better galaxyz."

Its likely a product uv evolution that we start thinking up theoryz and generalizationz almost immediately wen beginning a new subject. a handful uv facts drop into our brain and we are alredy trying to assemble them into sumthing that makes sense. Helps wen you want to avoid getting eaten by a tiger, but in the world uv science and teknolojy we hav bilt, premature conclusionz usually only mislead and hinder learning.

The problem gets worse az we continue to bild on theze 'theoryz'. They are like castlez in our hedz, and the longer we live in them the more we bild them up, the less willing we are to reconsider the basic premise.

We soon get to a point that we reject facts and lojik that appear to contradict our beliefs. We defend the castle.

English iz inherently a big project for everybody. All that memorizing. All that time flipping thru dictionaryz. The frustration and sumtimez embarrasment wen we get sumthing rong. The idea that we stacked all thoze hardfought rocks up to such a grand edifice for nothing iz hard to consider.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Nooalf = new speak. Texting = new speak. Any consideration should indicate how I thusly feel about nooalf and textspeak. I don't like them and think they're lame. Now when actually texting it makes sense to abreviate, but when chronic texters bring their cheap abreviatories into other realms of communications its super lame and makes me cringe, I mean really, Winston and Julia are rolling over in their ... wherever fictional charactors are put when the author is done with them. :)

Plus my speech software reading Joe's writing is funny, it makes him sound like a goober. But that's neither here nor there. If he wants to spell funny I don't care, but it is a turn off for those reading his posts. But I support his right to do it if he wishes.

I see no reason to doubt his mechanical prowess, I generally take people at their word, unless its something that just sounds preposterous, and even then I can be persuaded with repetition and consistancy, Frem's life story being an example. So why do people automatically doubt Joe's mechanical abilities because he can't spell and thinks we should all spell like him? (Yes I know I'm a crappy speller, but really, I'm a spelling guru in comparison, though I think his lack of spelling ability is all by choice where mine is just laziness/not wanting to spend the time looking up words before I write them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:29 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I'm a spelling guru in comparison, though I think his lack of spelling ability is all by choice where mine is just laziness/not wanting to spend the time looking up words before I write them.

Riona, spelling is an art, not a siense, and dudz that rite canott beez blamad for bahd gramour nar chitty compsrenention uv da lenqeueg...

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:04 PM

rezident owtsidr

At least you admit to lazyness, Rionaeire. And you're correct that I mispel by choice.

Lazyness iz an important consept. Not alwayz a fault, but a virtuous preference for efficiency uv time and energy. People will generally not do unesesary work. It makes no sense. Given a choice between 2 toolz, all other factorz being equal, they will ritely pick the wun that duz the work most efficiently, at least az far az their own elbow grease iz concerned.

Lazyness iz wun uv the forcez uv human nature that I am trying to harness to spred Nooalf. Nooalf iz the more efficient tool for the work uv spelling.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:33 AM

rezident owtsidr

You hav followed the usual pattern here, M52. You can find virtually the same 'debate' in several forums on the internet going back a dozen yirz.

Peeps dont like the idea that sumwun iz messing with English. They figure I'm an idiot based on my spelling and Itl be an eazy victory. They jump into a topic or start a new wun, then call on authority & consensus, deny facts, ignore lojik, never admit a lost point, repeat dead arguments and, finally, slink away.

Still, I continue to hope that sumday wun uv you will be able to see the value in lojik over tradition and clear the rubble uv a poorly constucted castle out uv your brain after I hav helped you tear it down.
[img]

]

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:47 AM

DALEK!

I have not gone anywhere. I'm still waiting for you to come up with some "th" words, or proof for your numerous unfounded claims. See it is not logical for me to continue to post until you actually make some sort of fact base argument.

I doubt you will because you are simply to dense to realize what is going on. You keep bringing up things that always happen to you when arguing about your crappy new spelling. Anyone with a bit of self insight would be able to figure that the problem was them and not everyone else.

I was going to post your failure a few other places, but stopped. I don't even want to drive people to your site to mock you. It will make no difference. In your mind you will always be right. So I rather your site simply fades back into internet obscurity.

So unless you can come up with something to back up what you seem so certain of, have fun in failure. I'm sure at some point your charts can be used as place mats for some homeless shelter.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Saturday, November 24, 2012 5:02 PM

rezident owtsidr

You missed it. Sweatheart and courthouse. Probably several more in the pile.

I like theze 2 examples. They hav more examplz uv inconsistency. ea makes 2 completely different soundz and ou makes a single sound in the 1st haf and 2 in the 2nd.

If you keep going, youre eventually going to hav to giv up on the claim that therez any real lojik to English spelling. Hopefully before weve gon thru the entire dictionary looking at examplez.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:09 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You missed it. Sweatheart and courthouse. Probably several more in the pile.

I like theze 2 examples. They hav more examplz uv inconsistency. ea makes 2 completely different soundz and ou makes a single sound in the 1st haf and 2 in the 2nd.

If you keep going, youre eventually going to hav to giv up on the claim that therez any real lojik to English spelling. Hopefully before weve gon thru the entire dictionary looking at examplez.

You do realize that simple breaking up the compound words eliminates that problem much easier, and more logically than changing "th" to "X". Doing that also eliminates the problem of remembering with words are compounded and which are not.

You might want to actually check your spelling before you make claims. You misspelled "sweetheart".

Oh, and nothing says that the language has to be logical. If doesn't. You like to reference pop culture so; if you remember numerous episodes of Star Trek you should remember it is often not the cold hard logic that wins the day.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 3:59 PM

rezident owtsidr

Sweet. OK Score 1 for M52. Got me there. I goofed up.

But you do realize there are a bunch uv wordz that do hav 'ea az the E sound, rite?

You are propozing a change yourself now. No compound wordz. Or are you only propozing a rule that wordz that start with H cant be the 2nd haf uv a compound in wordz that end in c, p, s, or t ?

A rule to solv 1 problem created by missing letterz in the alfabet insted uv just fixing the missing letter problem.

I will hav to pay particular attention wenevr you uze the word 'logically'.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:05 PM

DALEK!

All compound words, why not? It would eliminate some very common errors and stop people from having to remember which words are compounded and which are not.

Than the long e spellings which use "ea" can use "ee" instead.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Monday, November 26, 2012 6:35 AM

rezident owtsidr

This iz a major step!

You are in favor uv spelling reform!

Now the question iz, how much reform?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, November 26, 2012 7:31 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I will be bowing out of this, as I can not seem to convince you that language is evolutionary and not revolutionary.

There is really no point to the argument anyway, since there is only one measure to any implementation.

If people like it and find it useful, it will thrive.

If they don't, it will die.

And nothing we say to discourage you, nor any argument you summon to prove the benefits of your system will matter in the end.

For the record, I don't like it and don't find it useful. But carry on if it pleases you and you don't mind inflicting pain on your readers.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, November 26, 2012 9:13 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
This iz a major step!

You are in favor uv spelling reform!

Now the question iz, how much reform?

No, I'm not in favor of wholesale spelling reform. Reform and change will take place, just over time.

Thing is if there was going to be overall reform it would not resemble your system. The reform would have to be simple and let allow those who are taught it from birth to be able to read older text.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Monday, November 26, 2012 11:05 AM

rezident owtsidr

Backward compatability/acceptability. Thats the mistaken notion uv 99% uv all reformerz; their starting point.

They decide that the only way a new system will be accepted iz if it looks az close to traditional spelling az possible.

Inescapable conclusion #1 from there iz that new letterz are a non-starter.

So they spend a month studying the dictionary to determin what their digrafs and rules are, then start riting a common lexicon list in their new spelling.

They reazon that the introduction uv their revolutionary new spelling shoud be implimented gradually, piece by piece, over 10 to 20 yirz, guided by the educational administrationz in all the english speaking countryz, the dictionary publisherz and publisherz in general.

Sometime within the next few yirz they get on the web and find the Saundspel Group, American Literacy Council, the Simplified Spelling Society and a scattering uv individual websites and discover that their 'new' system iz close, sumtimez nearly identical, to a dozen that go back az far az the 1700z. A dozen they can find, but soon realize there must be hundredz, maybe thouzandz that were created in much the same way theirz wuz over the centuryz.

So the question iz wut went rong? Why coudnt even the well funded group efforts get any traction?

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, November 26, 2012 12:19 PM