Feeding the Planet without Destroying It by Niki2

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

As recently as this year my family here has been in contact with family members in Cuba. The nature of these conversations center around supplies that are desperately needed and not available locally. As recently as five years ago, a friend of the family has visited Cuba to take photographs of famous places for a calendar he was publishing. He was able to relate a lot about conditions in the different zones.

What is it exactly that you are wondering about? The black market, the lack of freedoms, the inability to safely politic against the government, the isolation from the international community, the fear of crossing the powers that be because of the possibility of detention, sham trials, and execution?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:28 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So I went to Amnesty International, The Carter Center and Human Rights Watch. They all have a remarkably consistent set of facts: Cubans aren't allowed dissension and at any time there are about 300 political detainees. Human Rights Watch says this: "In 2011 Raúl Castro’s government continued to enforce political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, forced exile, and travel restrictions." (BTW this is one instance where WIKI's warnings about its own content were pretty accurate: in the WIKI article what it said Human Rights Watch said about Cuba turned out not to be true.)

I went to the CIA World Factbook to check some other things.

Infant mortality Cuba/ US/ Brazil 4.8/ 6.0/ 20.50
Pct under 5 underweight Cuba/ US/ Brazil 3.9/ 1.3/ 2.2
Literacy at 15 Cuba/ US/ Brazil 99.8/ 99.0/ 88.6
Lifespan Cuba/ US/ Brazil 77.87/ 78.49/ 72.79
GINI index (income inequality) Cuba/ US/ Brazil 38*/ 45/ 51.9
* http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Pa%C3%ADses_por_igualdad_de_ingreso

Materially, Cubans fare very well compared to Brazil and comparably to the US in terms of health and literacy, and share far more equitably in the economy compared to both Brazil and the US.

My impression is that Cuba is politically repressive but materially equitable for its citizens.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
What is it exactly that you are wondering about? The black market, the lack of freedoms, the inability to safely politic against the government, the isolation from the international community, the fear of crossing the powers that be because of the possibility of detention, sham trials, and execution?

Huh, sounds a lot like America to me.

And ain't that a sad damn thing.

-F

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I went to the CIA World Factbook to check some other things.

Umm, apropros of nothing, but just as an aside - you really trust the accuracy of folk who've been proven over and over to be so universally full of shit, to be so wholly incompetent and inadequate at their job that the military had to roll their own internal agency to provide the information they couldn't ?

-F

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:45 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Umm, apropros of nothing, but just as an aside - you really trust the accuracy of folk who've been proven over and over to be so universally full of shit, to be so wholly incompetent and inadequate at their job that the military had to roll their own internal agency to provide the information they couldn't ?

-F

I validated these numbers through other sources like the UN. But the CIAWF had the most convenient sets of lists that allowed me to zero in on terminology.

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
OK, I looked it up. As it turns out, the world produces roughly 2700 Kcal per person per day's worth of food. That is enough to feed everyone, although maybe not enough to feed everyone a good diet: the typical macronutrient deficiency is protein so some of the Kcal may need to be converted to protein with the inevitable loss of conversion. In addition, the typical micronutrient deficiencies are vitamins A and D, iodine, omega-3 oil, and the amino acid taurine, all of which can best be obtained from ocean fish and seaweed. Considering we're already strip-mining the ocean (as well as strip-mining our topsoil and fresh water) that particular cupboard may be bare.

Did you read any of the quotes I posted, or looked up any of the links? They are kind of interesting and add a lot to this debate, which seems to have gotten off track about Cuba vs USA (not that I mind a good threadjack).

The issue is supplying the west with the kind of crops they demand, feed for animal production, coffee, tobacco. Again to quote, the world feeds our fast food demands.

Quote:
More than one third of the world’s grain harvest is used to feed livestock.
Breaking that down a little bit
Almost all rice is consumed by people
While corn is a staple food in many Latin American and Sub-Saharan countries, “worldwide, it is used largely as feed.”
Wheat is more evenly divided between food and feed and is a staple food in many regions such as the West, China and India.
The total cattle population for the world is approximately 1.3 billion occupying some 24% of the land of the planet
Some 70 to 80% of grain produced in the United States is fed to livestock
Half the water consumed in the U.S. is used to grow grain for cattle feed
A gallon of gasoline is required to produce a pound of grain-fed beef

When i have some more time, I'll try and address your original question in more detail, but I believe you have to look at the role of multinational food companies, so called free trade agreements, third world debt issues and find some way to curb the export/import of food.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 2:58 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
What is it exactly that you are wondering about? The black market, the lack of freedoms, the inability to safely politic against the government, the isolation from the international community, the fear of crossing the powers that be because of the possibility of detention, sham trials, and execution?

Huh, sounds a lot like America to me.

And ain't that a sad damn thing.

-F

Hello,

More and more every day.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:49 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Signy,

You probably do not care overmuch for my opinion which is biased in your view. So I'll use material from the Human Rights Group that Kiki thoughtfully brought into the communication.

You mentioned a humane government and you mentioned fear and you mentioned isolation.

An excerpt from: http://www.hrw.org/node/86549/section/10

New Castro, Same Cuba
November 19, 2009

Page 9
Page 11
Page 10 of 14

IX. State of Fear

The repressive practices of the Raúl Castro government documented in this report have generated a climate of fear that has a profound impact on dissidents and Cuban society as a whole. Fear of repression shapes behavior, pressuring Cubans to participate in pro-government activities and discouraging them from voicing dissent or participating in activities that may be perceived as “counterrevolutionary.” Individuals who express unpopular political views live in constant fear of being harassed, beaten, or arrested.

The Cuban government’s widespread use of surveillance and infiltrators creates an atmosphere where Cubans feel they are constantly being watched. Surveillance is not only a source of anxiety in itself, but it also fosters distrust and suspicion within the dissident community. This distrust extends to the laws and institutions entrusted with protecting Cubans’ rights. Dissidents have no confidence in the ability of the courts to give them a fair trial.

Fear is a central part of the Cuban government’s strategy of isolation, which pressures friends and family members to sever ties with dissidents. This isolation, together with other forms of harassment, takes a significant emotional and psychological toll on dissidents and their families. It may lead to depression or lasting psychological problems.
Self-Censorship and Coerced Allegiance

Fear pressures individuals to participate in pro-government activities and show their allegiance to the party. Having a job, belonging to the local “committee in defense of the revolution” and the state-sponsored union, attending pro-government rallies—all are seen as ways of proving one’s loyalty to the “revolutionary” project. To not participate is to mark oneself as suspicious, or even dangerous.

In the words of human rights advocate Ramona Sánchez Ramírez, “Everything works through fear.... People know they have to go to revolutionary activities, because if not, they’re looking for trouble.”[342] “Gerardo Domínguez,” a youth in Havana, told Human Rights Watch that his local committee for the defense of the revolution took attendance at meetings and government-sponsored events, and passed along the names of those who did not attend to security officials.[343]

Fear also discourages individuals from voicing dissent or from participating in any activity that may be perceived as “counterrevolutionary.” Non-dissidents and dissidents alike repeatedly said that any form of dissent could lead to repression—be it an arrest, a beating, imprisonment, or some other measure. As former political prisoner and leader of an unauthorized labor union Pedro Pablo Álvarez Ramos described the system:

In Cuba everyone has a file. If you are not in line with the system or are unwilling to carry out the tasks they assign, if you do not want to adopt that attitude or be part of the party, or of the committee—then you’re marginalized.... Those are the ones regarded as likely to commit crimes. In Cuba, one has to be a revolutionary for everything.[344]

Human rights defender Rodolfo Bartelemí Coba told Human Rights Watch, “We live 24 hours a day ready to be arrested at any moment.... Sometimes they enforce [the punishment] at this moment, sometimes later, but they always enforce it when they see fit.”[345] Alexander Santos Hernández described the threat of repression as ever present, calling Cuba “a system already designed to prosecute you.” He said this was especially true with the “dangerousness” provision, which he described as, “a law that’s prepared so they can accuse you [of breaking it] at any moment. It’s like a trap for a mouse with its mouth open: they just have to wave it in front of you and in just one day you’re in prison.”[346] Of the “dangerousness” law, Eduardo Pacheco Ortíz said, “They’re always instilling fear with this law. Every opponent has been suppressed by fear.”[347]

Several individuals said they had deliberately scaled back their participation in activities that could be considered critical of the government to avoid being arrested. William Reyes Mir used to be an active member of a small, unofficial political group that aims to make Cuba into a multiparty system. But he said that since completing two years of forced labor for “dangerousness,” he had not participated in any of the organization’s activities, out of fear of being arrested.[348] During interviews Human Rights Watch conducted in Cuba, interviewees said that even speaking to outsiders was likely to arouse the suspicion of the neighborhood “revolutionary” committee, and that talking about human rights could lead to their imprisonment.

Local Cuban blogs provide a window into the way fear permeates Cuban society on the whole. In his blog “From Here,” former journalist-turned-blogger Reinaldo Escobar wrote:

You can be certain that the vast majority of the people living in Cuba have never felt repression by the government on their own flesh. A few have been taken to Villa Marista [prison], and many have even been visited [by authorities] and warned not to misbehave. Most people have not been dismissed from their jobs or expelled from school because of their political views....

Why then does an index finger cross the lips, eyes widen, or a look of horror appear on the faces of my friends when at their houses I commit the indiscretion of making a political comment within earshot of the neighbors? We already know where those who fight in the face of fear are ... and the paralyzed are all around us, waiting to see what the brave ones do.[349]

Yoani Sánchez, who writes the blog “Generation Y,” wrote:

Soon, very soon— [the neighbors] warn me—I could hear a knock at my door very early one morning. In anticipation of this, I would like to point out that I do not keep weapons under the bed. However, I have committed an unfailing and heinous offence: I have believed myself to be free....

But don’t fool yourself; I’m not entirely innocent. I carry with me a mountain of misdeeds; I have routinely bought on the black market, I have commented in a low voice—and in critical terms—about those who govern us, I have nicknamed politicians and joined in the pessimism. To top it off, I have committed the abominable offense of believing in a future without “them” and in a version of history different from that which they have taught me. I repeated the slogans without conviction, washed the dirty laundry in full view and—the greatest transgression—I have joined words and phrases together without permission.[350]

Although some point to the emergence of such blogs as proof that Raúl Castro’s government tolerates dissent, many of the blogs are blocked within Cuba. Moreover, access to the internet is limited to a few government-run centers and tourist hotels, where it costs approximately US$5 per hour, or one-third of Cubans’ monthly wages. Private internet connections require special permission from the government, and are rarely granted.

As a result, bloggers often write their posts on home computers, save them on memory sticks, and upload them through illegal connections. Ironically, bloggers rarely have the opportunity to see their own blogs. In an August 2009 post, blogger Luis Felipe Rojas wrote: “I write without being able to answer those who support or rebut my poor arguments. Never have I been able to see this blog online.”[351] Furthermore, as novelist Ángel Santiesteben wrote on his blog, individuals who write critically risk “the loss of friends, some of whom distance themselves out of fear of repression,” as well as threats and physical attacks by government officials.[352] Blogger Rojas was the subject of an arbitrary arrest and interrogation because of his writing.[353]
Surveillance and Suspicion

Constant government surveillance makes dissidents feel as though their every move is being watched, while the use of infiltrators fosters distrust and suspicion among groups.

Dissidents repeatedly said that their phones were tapped and their conversations recorded by security officers, citing as evidence the fact that authorities later repeated back to them parts of phone conversations or people with whom they had spoken. Víctor Yunier Fernández Martínez told Human Rights Watch that he could be punished for saying anything critical about the government over the phone:

These words I'm saying to you could cost me my life. They may lead to my summoning. They could come here to look for me right now in a car, because here all the phone lines are governmental, they’re bugged.[354]

The day after a telephone interview with Human Rights Watch, dissident Eduardo Pacheco Ortíz said he was arrested while walking down the street. In a later call, Pacheco said, “They did not tell me anything about the call because they don’t want to give themselves away. But I know that it is because of the call.”[355]

Dozens of times during Human Rights Watch’s phone interviews with dissidents, calls were abruptly cut off, and in several cases dissidents’ phone lines were suspended for hours or days after interviews. Dissidents attributed these phenomena to interference by censors.

Dissidents said government officials deliberately revealed their surveillance capabilities as a form of intimidation. Marco Antonio Lima Dalmau said that during previous interrogations government officials had mentioned information that they would have known only if they had planted microphones in his home.[356] “Joaquín Durán,” a member of the clergy, said that when he was brought in for questioning by State Security, officers ran down a list of every political activity and gathering that he had attended in recent months.[357]

Dissidents told Human Rights Watch that the government used infiltrators to collect information. As evidence, they pointed to preemptive arrests before planned gatherings and security officers’ knowledge of issues discussed in small groups. René Velásquez González—the son of a political prisoner who has attended meetings of unauthorized political groups—said that, even when among dissidents, he was very careful when voicing criticism of the government, because there was no way of being sure that everyone was trustworthy.[358]
Distrust of the Courts

Dissidents say that Cuba’s judicial system works hand in glove with security forces to repress dissent. In the words of dissident Rufina Velásquez González, “In Cuba, judges and juries are basically another arm of the state security forces. They are there so that the laws of the revolution are followed, not justice and legal parameters.”[359]

Dissidents routinely told Human Rights Watch that they had no faith in the ability of the courts to reach just decisions or fulfill their duty to safeguard fundamental freedoms. Dissidents called their trials “theatre” and “a show,” and said their sentences were “pre-written” and “pre-decided.” According to Enyor Díaz Allen, “In Cuba, there are no rights. When they want, they put you in prison.”[360] Other dissidents said the legal system was used to shield government officials who committed abuses. Ana Margarita Perdigón Brito, a dissident who suffered numerous beatings at the hands of security officers, said, “The authorities are authorized with impunity. Whether they break the law or not—nothing happens to them.”[361]

René Gómez Manzano described the way the various branches of the Cuban government work in concert to repress dissent:

This works like a sugar processing factory, where first you put in the cane, then it goes through a mill, and the process continues until the bag of sugar comes out the other end. The police grab you and go to the district attorney saying, “Look, we detained this individual.” Then the district attorney accuses you. And if the district attorney accuses you then the initial court immediately punishes you. You appeal and when it reaches the superior court, the superior court ratifies the action and that’s it. A reversal of the initial court’s decision is practically unthinkable. There’s no other way to do things there.[362]

Former political prisoners and family members of current prisoners said courtrooms were filled with uniformed and plainclothes officers and members of “rapid response brigades,” creating a threatening atmosphere. “The room was full of armed men,” said Yaraí Reyes Marín, the wife of journalist and political prisoner Normando Hernández González, describing his show trial in 2003. She said the armed officers, who greatly outnumbered Hernández’s immediate family, made her feel frightened and isolated.[363]

Dissidents’ lack of faith in the independence of the courts has real consequences for their conduct in legal proceedings. As seen above, dissidents repeatedly choose not to appeal their decisions or even contest the charges against them because of the perception that any challenge—no matter how well-founded—would result in a harsher sentence.

For example, William Reyes Mir did not appeal his sentence of two years’ forced labor for “dangerousness,” despite the fact that the state prosecutor falsified charges against him. He told Human Rights Watch, “Here people almost never appeal because appeals are dangerous. [The lawyers] threaten that if you appeal, it could end up badly.... People appeal and end up with harsher sentences.”[364]
Emotional and Psychological Impact

Everyday acts of repression, inhuman imprisonment, and fear take a significant emotional and psychological toll on dissidents. Former political prisoner Víctor Yunier Fernández Martínez told Human Rights Watch that since his release from jail in February 2009, he was afraid to leave his home:

At this moment I feel tense, I feel stressed, because they’ve already condemned me.... I'm not even going out, I'm here in my house. I'm afraid of walking, I'm afraid they’ll take me back to prison. I fear it because I already suffered, my whole family suffered. I fear for what might happen to me.[365]

The emotional and psychological repercussions often extend to the families of dissidents. Journalist Juan Carlos Hernández said that, as a result of his frequent arrests, his wife began to suffer anxiety attacks and chronic nightmares about him being arrested. As a result, she had to seek psychiatric treatment. He described the atmosphere produced by this intimidation:

Yes, I'm afraid. Not just me—my family. We live in constant confinement. If they knock on the door, we don’t want to know who it is, our hearts pound so hard it feels like they’ll burst.... When you analyze this series of actions, they practically have it designed to throw your nerves out of balance.[366]

Wives and children of political prisoners said they experienced periods of depression as a result of their husbands’ or fathers’ confinement. When her husband was charged with “dangerousness” in January 2007, Bárbara González Cruz was unable to leave her bed for several weeks, her son said. She stopped eating and would not speak to anyone.[367]

Rebeca Rodríguez Souto’s son was a teenager when his father—journalist Dr. Alfredo Pulido—was sentenced to 14 years in prison in 2003. Rodríguez Souto said that after his father’s detention, his behavior changed dramatically. He became reserved, did not want to go to school, and withdrew into isolation. She said she regularly found him taking his father’s clothes out and laying them on his bed, where he would stare at them.[368]

Juan Francisco Sigler Amaya said public acts of repudiation, which had been repeatedly staged outside of his home, had terrified his four children. He said they had suffered lasting trauma from the siege of their homes—replete with menacing chants, insults, stone-throwing, and threats—telling Human Rights Watch: “[The acts] stay etched in their minds for a lifetime. They traumatize them and they will carry this psychological burden. From this horror, they get frightened by anything, and don’t allow anyone to enter the house.”[369]

Former political prisoners described lasting pain from the cruel, inhuman, and degrading conditions they endured in Cuban prisons. Manuel Vázquez Portal, who was released in 2004, was subjected to sustained periods of solitary confinement, and engaged in hunger strikes to call attention to the abysmal conditions in which he and other prisoners were held. He said that five years after his release he continued to suffer “periods of irritability and depression,” as well as recurrent nightmares about solitary confinement, for which he has sought psychological treatment.[370] Pedro Pablo Álvarez Ramos, a political prisoner who was released in February 2008, said:

I had never suffered from depression, and now every once in a while it happens to me. Sometimes I wake up very early in the morning and think that I'm still in prison. No one is spared. One lives so much horror—it’s such a difficult experience, being isolated—especially when one hasn’t done anything.[371]

A Strategy of Isolation

Fear is a critical component in the government’s strategy to isolate dissidents from their neighbors, coworkers, friends, and loved ones. Authorities use what clergy member “Enrique Jiménez” described as a system of “rewards and punishments” to cut off those it sees as its enemies: ongoing contact with those labeled “counterrevolutionary” may lead to punishment, while informing on them or isolating them is rewarded.[372]

In eight cases, dissidents said that authorities pressured their family members and friends to sever ties with them. Dissident Alexander Santos Hernández, from Holguín, said that his childhood friend—a woman who has never been involved in dissident activities—was told by authorities that her daughter would be expelled from school if she maintained her friendship with Santos.[373]

Sometimes, pressure by government officials can cause family members to end relationships with dissidents. Enyor Díaz Allen, a dissident in Guantanamo, said that his mother had stopped talking to him because of pressure from police.[374] Digzan Saavedra Prat, a dissident from Holguín and former political prisoner, said his brother cut off all contact with him when authorities warned him that continued contact with his “mercenary” brother would cost him his job.[375]

Roberto Marrero la Rosa, a human rights advocate in Camagüey, has a daughter-in-law who used to work in the public prosecutor’s office. According to Marrero, government officials approached her and said that if she wanted to keep her job, she would have to divorce her husband (Marrero’s son) and put their child up for adoption. When she refused, she was fired, Marrero said.[376]

Former political prisoner Eduardo Pacheco Ortíz described the effect of such isolation on his family’s social network in Matanzas:

In the city, no one is allowed to talk to me. People who come to my house are immediately called by state security and reprimanded. Then these people—for fear of losing their jobs, for fear that [the authorities] will take it out on someone in their family—simply stop talking to me.[377]

Rufina Velásquez Gonzales—daughter of political prisoner Ramón Velásquez Toranzo—said security officers approached several of her friends and asked them to report secretly on her activities.[378] She said the harassment she received in public was a major factor in her decision to leave Cuba for the United States—a decision made harder by the knowledge she was leaving a father in prison and a brother and mother who had been shunned by much of their community.

Rufina’s brother, René Velásquez Gonzales, who remained in Las Tunas with his mother, told Human Rights Watch that authorities questioned everyone who spent time with him, asking why they were spending time with a known “worm.” One day, after having a soda with a friend, security officers accused Velásquez of trying to indoctrinate the friend with “counterrevolutionary ideas.” Following the incident, Velásquez decided to stop hanging around with his closest friends to avoid getting them in trouble. His co-workers stopped talking to him, and his girlfriend left him. He described the feeling of isolation as asphyxiating. “It’s like having someone plant a boot right in the middle of my chest, and applying so much pressure I can hardly breathe. Just when I think I am going to suffocate, a little air makes it through. And then the pressure is back again.”[379]

The Cuban government does not consider violence, oppression, and injustice to be a 'mistake' that needs correction. It is their means of control.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, May 28, 2012 6:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It's also a place where highly educated and skilled professionals can't make a living in their field and are forced to engage in manual labor in order to survive.

Of all of the complaints you have about the Castro regime, this is the least compelling. I've know lots of chemistry graduates who drove taxis or checked groceries of attended gasoline stations because no other work was available. This is, at worst, an elitist whine from/about a population that is overeducated for the economy. And what is wrong with an overeducated population?

Quote:
It's a place where you can't choose or change your government.

A more robust complaint. However, given that WE have not been able to choose our government... at least choose one that pisses off the TPTB... not seeing much difference. The Egyptians will find out (after their recent election, as the Tunisians already have and the Europeans will afterward) that you can have whatever government you want, as long as it's controlled by the moneyed interests.

Quote:
It's a place where your government will imprison you, torture you, or murder you for speaking out against the president or publishing materials critical of government practices, policies, or officials. It's a place where you are very much fearful of the future and isolated from the world.

Again, not hearing much new here, either. You do realize I was followed by the FBI for nothing more than speaking my mind on the inet, and had to contemplate my disabled daughter's future without me? And then there is Bradley Manning, who did nothing more than publish the truth. Finally, I'm sure that Frem can quote you chapter and verse on police abuse.

-----------

I need to read your last post in full. But what I found is that every society has its norms, and some are more inflexible than others. Have you looked at the USA record according to the same source?

In THIS society, you are allowed to speak out against the gubmint. Of course you are. It is the last organized bulwark against the powers of the corporation, and therefore fair game. But you dare not tackle banks, corporations, or religions or you will be maced and beaten and arrested. In Cuba, they have enforced equity. Here, we have enforced inequity.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 9:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Amnesty International's annual report on the USA... and this isn't counting the hundreds of thousands of people we've killed in the past eight years...

Quote:
Forty-six people were executed during the year, and reports of excessive use of force and cruel prison conditions continued. Scores of men remained in indefinite military detention in Guantánamo as President Obama's one-year deadline for closure of the facility there came and went. Military commission proceedings were conducted in a handful of cases, and the only Guantánamo detainee so far transferred to the US mainland for prosecution in a federal court was tried and convicted. Hundreds of people remained held in US military custody in the US detention facility on the Bagram airbase in Afghanistan. The US authorities blocked efforts to secure accountability and remedy for crimes under international law committed against detainees previously subjected to the USA's secret detention and rendition programme.

Like I said, Cuba has enforced equity and we have enforced inequity.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 9:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Again, not hearing much new here, either. You do realize I was followed by the FBI for nothing more than speaking my mind on the inet, and had to contemplate my disabled daughter's future without me? And then there is Bradley Manning, who did nothing more than publish the truth. Finally, I'm sure that Frem can quote you chapter and verse on police abuse.

Not only that, but I been following the results of an advocates pet project on trying to actually document and database the stuff, once known as the site: Injustice Everywhere - a notion I firmly supported since doing that eliminates the few-bad-apples excuse and may over time be quite helpful in reforming both our policing and our so-called justice system.
Problem with it recently was that the project VERY quickly became more than the dude running it could possibly handle cause he and others had DRASTICALLY underestimated the scope and scale of the problem, necessitating the hand-off of that ball to some group with not only the resources to pull it off, but also the will to do so, and this quickly became a fiasco as various factions threw a hissy about who might wind up running the project - some of whom had intentions I consider suspect, and the "best" candidate, CATO, folks were worried about a potential hostile takeover from within via the Koch brothers, but given the litigous nature of the blue suit mafia no one else really had the ability to stand up to them and thus the project has moved there.
http://www.policemisconduct.net/

Having said that, it's a pretty sure bet there's worse places to live than america or cuba, and that there's better ones too - the injustices of one country and culture should not be used to excuse or minimize those of another, and some crap you really shouldn't never do to any one, any where.
If the point is that america ain't got a whole bloody room to talk about such things, yeah that's made.
But I suspect the point intended in discussion here isn't being made well - can we refine the exact notion were trying to contrast without the shotgun-spatter approach ?

Better farming/food distribution practices ?
More equitable resource allocation ?

Let's cut it down to the quick, shall we ?

-Frem

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Monday, May 28, 2012 11:35 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

IX. State of Fear
The Cuban government’s widespread use of surveillance and infiltrators creates an atmosphere where Cubans feel they are constantly being watched.

As is true in the US for anyone who keeps track of what the government is doing. It's not the informant who watches you though, it's the computer programs that record your movements, your transactions, your conversations, your communications.

Quote:
Surveillance is not only a source of anxiety in itself, but it also fosters distrust and suspicion within the dissident community. This distrust extends to the laws and institutions entrusted with protecting Cubans’ rights. Dissidents have no confidence in the ability of the courts to give them a fair trial.

As above.

Quote:
Fear also discourages individuals from voicing dissent or from participating in any activity that may be perceived as “counterrevolutionary.”

or 'terrorist' like WIKIleaks or Greenpeace, or un-American, or unpatriotic.

Quote:
“We live 24 hours a day ready to be arrested at any moment....

Oddly enough as so I. When QUAKERS have files as potential terrorists, what hope do any of us have of escaping government surveillance?

Quote:

Dissidents repeatedly said that their phones were tapped and their conversations recorded by security officers, citing as evidence the fact that authorities later repeated back to them parts of phone conversations or people with whom they had spoken.

And this is different from the US Patriot Act and the ILLEGAL trap and trace of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF US PHONE CONVERSATIONS - how again?

I'm not going to go any further with this point by point - but let me bring this to your notice:

The Torture Report
an investigation into rendition, detention, and interrogation under the Bush administration

http://www.thetorturereport.org/

Indefinite detention, lack of a trial, inhumane conditions - all these have been signed onto by Obama, with the addition of assassination of US citizens based on nothing more than the government's say so.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 12:29 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Magonsdaughter

Regarding food supply - as an offshoot of a study I did on human nutrition - to see if semi-aquatic human origins could be traced through non-terrestrial dietary requirements - I've come to the conclusion that a healthful diet from standard agriculture is very hard to mimic.

Originally I focused on minerals, as the mineral signature of the ocean is very different from the signature of the land. And indeed, humans have a far higher iodine and zinc requirement than gorillas or chimps, as well as a far higher salt tolerance (and the only species on the planet with naturally occurring cystic fibrosis gene that is best tolerated with inhaled salt). But it turns out humans need about a gram of omega-three fatty acids, specifically DHA, per day, which can only be met eating seafood (land-based food sources have some, but not enough to supply the daily requirement). And recently it's been found that human cardiovascular health is dependent on a constant intake of taurine, an amino acid exclusively found in ocean-based life (seaweed, fish and shellfish). And then, there is that vitamin D requirement which hit the news a few years ago as a result of a Canadian study.

A long time ago someone mentioned this idea to me - we'll never be able to live in space. People are so exquisitely adapted to their environment that we'll never be able to reproduce it in every necessary detail. It's really stuck with me. As we find out more each year about what people really need in order to be well-nourished it drives home even deeper that we can't keep the planet well-nourished through agri-business-as-usual.

There's a fair bit of overlap between SignyM's post and mine - this is an area of common interest that we communicate about frequently.

ETA: to conclude on-topic, I think the fact that people starve is a result of human organization, not lack of planetary resources. But I also think that we can't feed people WELL given the planet's resources and the number of people. The limiting factor is ocean-based food, which is disappearing, and accumulating pollution like DDT, PAHs, PCBs, PBDPEs, PFOA, mercury, and even radionuclides.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 2:42 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quote:
Indefinite detention, lack of a trial, inhumane conditions - all these have been signed onto by Obama, with the addition of assassination of US citizens based on nothing more than the government's say so.

Something I have been repeatedly railing against as making us more and more like the oppressive land of my father. So, if it's bad here, is it good there? If it's inhumane here, is it humane there? Are you prepared to admit that the Cuban government is not humane, or will you continue to excuse their inhumanity because they have a government type you favor?

Quote:
But what I found is that every society has its norms

Perhaps you are.

Quote:
In Cuba, they have enforced equity. Here, we have enforced inequity.

No. They don't have enforced equity in Cuba. While it's true that the have-nots must share equally, the haves still have while the have-nots still have not.

Signy, Kiki, take it from someone familiar with the Cuban Community. Nine out of Ten Oppressed Cubans Agree: The Oppressive Conditions in America are currently better than the Oppressive Conditions in Cuba.

Also: While a Candle can become a Conflagration, and while both can burn you, the two are not the same. Nuance and degrees exist. This website would not exist and we would not be having this conversation in Cuba. Even if we were fortunate enough to have the electricity needed to run the equipment. It's important that while the same potentials exist in both countries, we are not as bad as they are yet. This matters because we can still fight the progression of oppression here.

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Having said that, it's a pretty sure bet there's worse places to live than america or cuba, and that there's better ones too - the injustices of one country and culture should not be used to excuse or minimize those of another, and some crap you really shouldn't never do to any one, any where.

If the point is that america ain't got a whole bloody room to talk about such things, yeah that's made.

Ad nauseum. Though I note AGAIN for the record that we do have the ability to talk about such things. Even this level of discourse is not routinely possible there. Certainly never in a public forum.

Quote:
But I suspect the point intended in discussion here isn't being made well - can we refine the exact notion were trying to contrast without the shotgun-spatter approach ?

Better farming/food distribution practices ?
More equitable resource allocation ?

Let's cut it down to the quick, shall we ?

I agree, Frem. We should set aside the odd desire to describe Cuba as a humane land and focus on the fact that they are early adopters of the 'shit necessary to survive.'

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:32 PM

Well, speaking of such things, and on a brighter note:

Backyard Barbeque for the Homeless and Hungry serves nearly 5,000 people
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120528/METRO01/205280371/1409

Quote:
The barbeque event, which organizers said served nearly 5,000 people throughout the 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. festivities, featured grocery giveaways as well as grilled food along with water and Gatorade. Those in line in the sweltering temperatures stood on a long strip of red carpet to make them feel special, organizers said.

Most of you know why I don't "celebrate" memorial day and I dun wanna argue it, and outside of Forgotten Harvest I ain't too friendly with a lot of the sponsors of this one, but when it comes to feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, stuff like that, I'd lift spatula or hammer in common cause with friggin Romney if I had to...
Cause some things are more important than personal animosity.

I talked the property owner into donating two cases of bottled water in exchange for covering tonights shift, and ran it over there, but it's just too goddamn hot out there for me to function for very long - it's gonna be a rough night alas, especially if I have to assist folks heavier than me to their front door cause they're too sauced to reliably make it themselves, argh.
Thankfully the A/C in my vintage beamer still works, but it was really struggling, and I note it's the older system and I'll have to have it converted when I get round to servicing it, dunno what that entails but it ain't like one gets much call for A/C in Michigan most of the time anyhows.

This for damn sure, imma get a goddamn KILT if I can find one that can match up with the uniform and has belt loops for equipment - any ideas ?
Utilikilt can kiss my arse, ain't payin no $150.00 for one, neither.

-Frem

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:49 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Signe and Niki, I could just never support rules like that, I'm intensely family oriented, even if you're not close with everyone in your family there are people you can usually count on and they can count on you (I'm saying you in the general sense here). I can't be pro a plan that dominishes your options there for support and the ability to give support to them.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:51 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Are you prepared to admit that the Cuban government is not humane, or will you continue to excuse their inhumanity because they have a government type you favor?"

I thought I addressed it here: "My impression is that Cuba is politically repressive but materially equitable for its citizens." In some ways yes, in some ways no.

But if I had to make a choice between starvation and repression, I'd pick repression. It actually matters to me if people are starving b/c there's a small group of extremely wealthy and powerful people sucking them dry through the power of economic repression and government cooperation vs people starving b/c everyone is poor, while the government takes extreme measures to prevent social breakdown (the kind of breakdown you see in post-earthquake Haiti). Now, I'm not saying that ALL political repression in Cuba is a response to extreme conditions. But the original embargo by the US, the tightening of the embargo recently, and the elimination of most of their oil imports do constitute ongoing crisis, which the government naturally responds to.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 4:47 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AnthonyT

As I look over the posts it seems like this particular sub-topic is causing you some distress. Since that’s not my intention, I won’t be addressing it any more.

ETA I hope you read this not as me being dismissive, but as trying to reduce friction.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 8:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

TONY- I'm not going to get into an extended argument with you about the beneficence of the Castro government, so I'm only going to say this once- I think your priorities are confused. It's nice to have a government that respects your civil rights, it really is. In the ideal world, all governments would do that.

So, do you want to know what I find humane about Cuba? Not its respect for civil rights, that's for sure. But after hurricane Ivan (Category 5 Ivan) killed 52 people in the United States, do you know how many people were killed in Cuba?

NONE.

The government evacuated 15 percent of the entire population and 2 million farm animals to shelters and to safe ground.

You say that Cubans like it better here than there. You should ask the ex-residents of New Orleans about that. How good was our response to Katrina? Was it humane? Was it effective? It was pathetic. The richest country in the world couldn't protect its residents from a completely predicted storm. It was every man for himself, and god against all. 1800 people died there, Tony. 1800 people we couldn't be bothered to save because they were poor, black, and ignorant or old. Now imagine that we're facing a Katrina every day for ten years. How do you think we'd stack up against Cuba?

The fact that Cuba is doing what is necessary to save lives is a testament to the goals of the government. The fact that the United States does NOT do what is necessary to save lives also says something about the goals of our government.

So while I agree with your complaints about the government's intrusion into personal liberty- and would vastly prefer a freer politics- I weigh that quite a bit less than the pathological destruction of human life that our nation seems to engage in so wantonly.

Criticize the Cuban government but recognize that they do SOME things even better than we do. Where we can take a positive lesson from them, let us do so.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 9:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
My biggest fear is that the United States- whether it pursues Capitalism or Socialism- is becoming such a state where the individual is oppressed more and more, and subject to the whimsy of the powers in every way. Where the individual is losing their power to shape and choose government, to speak freely, and to live their lives as they choose without fear of death or pain inflicted on them by powers outside their control.

Absolutely....

As Billy Joel said, "We didn't start the fire"....

I don't blame Barry at all for starting this....

I blame him for making it even more true, and for bending over and kissing rings on public TV of foreign media....

My biggest fear is that after our future presidents make sure everything here worth being proud of is gone, that nobody will remember the great run we had.......

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:34 AM

I would like to note that I managed to not post in this thread for like forever and that I consider this a sign that humanity has more hope than apparently we've given ourselves credit for.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 11:35 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magonsdaughter

Regarding food supply - as an offshoot of a study I did on human nutrition - to see if semi-aquatic human origins could be traced through non-terrestrial dietary requirements - I've come to the conclusion that a healthful diet from standard agriculture is very hard to mimic.

Originally I focused on minerals, as the mineral signature of the ocean is very different from the signature of the land. And indeed, humans have a far higher iodine and zinc requirement than gorillas or chimps, as well as a far higher salt tolerance (and the only species on the planet with naturally occurring cystic fibrosis gene that is best tolerated with inhaled salt). But it turns out humans need about a gram of omega-three fatty acids, specifically DHA, per day, which can only be met eating seafood (land-based food sources have some, but not enough to supply the daily requirement). And recently it's been found that human cardiovascular health is dependent on a constant intake of taurine, an amino acid exclusively found in ocean-based life (seaweed, fish and shellfish). And then, there is that vitamin D requirement which hit the news a few years ago as a result of a Canadian study.

A long time ago someone mentioned this idea to me - we'll never be able to live in space. People are so exquisitely adapted to their environment that we'll never be able to reproduce it in every necessary detail. It's really stuck with me. As we find out more each year about what people really need in order to be well-nourished it drives home even deeper that we can't keep the planet well-nourished through agri-business-as-usual.

There's a fair bit of overlap between SignyM's post and mine - this is an area of common interest that we communicate about frequently.

ETA: to conclude on-topic, I think the fact that people starve is a result of human organization, not lack of planetary resources. But I also think that we can't feed people WELL given the planet's resources and the number of people. The limiting factor is ocean-based food, which is disappearing, and accumulating pollution like DDT, PAHs, PCBs, PBDPEs, PFOA, mercury, and even radionuclides.

Thank you for responding, ikiki. Your post is thought provoking. I can't really respond any other way, as your argument is quite plausable.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 11:55 AM

What I hear:

1) "We can go into space if we don't really care about health."
2) I don't really care about my health and give less than any care about the proper proportions of omega acids, vitamins, minerals, and sea food I should be having, especially since I'm not dead yet or particularly unhealthy yet.
3) Therefore, space!

But, equally honestly, I'm starting to not care about much of anything anymore, so the next time one of you proposes a solution to destroy all humankind so that mother earth can heal herself, I'll probably just give you a tired thumbs up.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
What I hear:

1) "We can go into space if we don't really care about health."
2) I don't really care about my health and give less than any care about the proper proportions of omega acids, vitamins, minerals, and sea food I should be having, especially since I'm not dead yet or particularly unhealthy yet.
3) Therefore, space!

But, equally honestly, I'm starting to not care about much of anything anymore, so the next time one of you proposes a solution to destroy all humankind so that mother earth can heal herself, I'll probably just give you a tired thumbs up.

Hey Byte,

I think space exploration and the ability to terraform a new planet is the most important thing our Governments could be doing.....

The problem is, there are over 4 billion too many mouths to feed on this planet today. To exacerbate those problems, a majority of those people spend more than they can afford (in "healthy" countries) or they just keep having kids in areas that can't support their own.

That will all be solved soon.

Almost everything surrounding us today that involves money is a "bubble" that's already exploded, or is on the verge of exploding.

Hell... the only reason that this hasn't happened in the US 20 years ago is because somehow we've been the single nation in existence that not only is expected to build up a debt, but has the arrogance to set up a "debt clock" in Time's Square.

The politicians and rich and other upper echelon's will be largely protected from the fallout in their own bubble of sorts, but there will be a long time where the rest of us will fight and die for what we need to support us and our families. All the while, the 1% will sit back and let us all duke it out until half of us are no-more and the rest of us are too exhausted to fight anymore.

A "thinning of the herd", much akin to Noah's flood, although with much less water and a lot more blood in the streets....

If mankind is to survive at all, I can't see any way to avoid this since we are reaching a critical mass of humans per sq/ft of real estate.

In many aspects, I agree entirely with the "Lefties" about the damage humans do to the planet.

At the same time, I don't agree at all with any proposed "solutions", especially when the Left doctrines, aside from it's desire to kill unborn babies, is the party of choice for people with way to many kids to take care of to not live in their cars, and therefore at the same time rewards irresponsibility.....

Ultimately, there is only ONE solution to this problem.

Imagine the 1992 riots, and then imagine them happening EVERYWHERE at one time, and likely spanning years or decades instead of just days, after the 1% shuts down government and infrastructure except for the impenetrable bubbles they live in.

The only benefits we have here in the States is that we have fertile land and a good climate. Even though we have full time distractions today like Jobs and TV programs, many things we NEED to exist, we can provide on our own property when those distractions are mitigated in this situation. When the bad times come, it will be important to have good relationships with your neighbors, and access to weapons and armaments necessary to protect not only you and your own family, but help other neighbors do the same.

I'm armed, although much less than I'd like to be in that situation. I have a large stockpile of food and water, although much less than I'd like to have in that position. These are things I need to work on.

I'm starting my own garden this weekend, and I hope to grow it next year during harvest season. In two to three years, I plan on having 4 rain barrels on my gutters and having at least a chicken farm as far as protein is concerned.

As far as health insurance is concerned.... nobody lived with it more than 80 years ago. Tragedies happen every day. In my mind, INSURANCE is what has RUINED civilization, since it was NEVER self sustainable in the first place. It was a means to our destruction, and my gut tells me that a vast majority of our 13+ Trillion dollar debt today comes exclusively from insurance claims, and the jump in prices that everything has taken because of them.

My brother's medical bills back in 1989-1990 for neuro-surgery and a 3 month hospital stay were just over 220k. I remember that number in stone because at the time that seemed like more money than I could wrap my mind around. He suffered multiple strokes and a massive brain hemorrhage, but he had one of the greatest neuro-surgeons in the world working on him and he survived. He was actually the first case of the kind and science is so primitive in the brain that nobody can really figure out his problems today because of it.

And a 3 month hospital stay afterward..........??????

What would that all cost today......?

5 Million dollars....?

10 Million dollars.....?

More.....????

The ONLY SINGLE THING that has increased in price more than cigarette smoking is healthcare, and it leads smoking at a distant second.

When the bad times come, most of us will be thrust back into the Civil War era for medical care, but at least there will be no health insurance. People like me will learn how to patch people up and fix what we can. Unfortunately, I'm quite sure the Neurosurgeon who worked on my brother will be in the "bubble" so any major head injuries will have to be considered a lost cause.

In the end... I don't even believe a thinned herd is a bad thing for those of us remaining, and the planet as a whole. Afterall, given Darwin's laws, wouldn't it be the most cunning and intelligent that survived the ordeal?

The way I figure it... let the 1% sit in their bubble during this ordeal. When the equilibrium resets for the rest of us and we find that one day where we are all self sufficient without the need for violence, I can guaranty you that we'd still be a 50/1 ratio to the 1%.

Sure, we might have depleted ammo years ago and not have the superior firepower they have at that point, but I would think that decades of fighting would have tempered our spirits so solid that their "fat" and contented attitudes and decadence over the same time span had softened their minds and their bodies.

No Woman, No Cry.....

I don't like seeing you being so pessimistic Byte. Others may think this post is a pessimistic world view, but I only see it as a necessity for the furthering of the species.

The years they seem short, but the days go slowly by......

We find ourselves on the precipice of a truly Brave New World, one that has never been pre-determined by either our most favorite and prolific writers, or any religion's holy texts.

There is NO SUCH THING as predetermination. Our future, good or bad, is what we make it.

It's obvious to me that you care a great deal for people, even though you consider yourself an outcast growing up.

May I suggest you take this time, while things are still "decent" to start preparing for a much rockier future. My two goals are to not only be able to supply myself with a vast surplus of necessities if they can't be bought in the stores, but to also be able to defend those resources if the shit ever really hit the fan.

If you feel so down because you feel defeated, I can empathize with you. I would never suggest anyone, at this time, try to "defeat" a group of people who are fully funded by the combined taxes of all of our labor and a seemingly limitless credit limit into the abyss....

But when both of those wells run dry.... It's people like you and me who care enough, at least about other people close to us, that we press on.

The last thing the 1% will be doing during these times is sticking their gangly necks out trying to collect on property taxes or income taxes lol. Although, I'm sure they'll try to make us pay back taxes after the dust settles.....

There's a reason why you chose Zoe as your avatar.

No matter what life was before now, She is who you wish to aspire to.

Take any of those distructive feelings of self and of society and re-channel all of that raw emotion to more productive things.

Right now, our mission is to become as self-sufficient as we can be.

The end goal, is to have enough vegitation and electric to have a surplus to share with those we love, and also to encourage and teach those we know to do the same. For those of us who live in areas where it's not illegal to raise livestock, we need to do the same. We should also be keeping journals of our failures and successes so others can learn from them.

The decadent "world-wide" world we've grown up with is slowly crumbling around itself. It hopefully will take decades to implode, but it could be as little as a few years.

It's people like you and me who care enough to make a difference that when the chips fall we'll able to keep a large enough group of people who care enough about each other to grow it and defend it that we may stand a chance to fend off the thugs who are desperate and didn't prepare at all.

Stop knocking yourself Byte....

Step up to the plate and actually BE Zoey.

There's nothing "paranoid" in being prepared.

Actually, you'll find the more prepared you are for the wild future, the less paranoid you actually are.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 4:30 PM

>_> My avatar is Zoe because I can't be bothered to change it. I'm actually not much like any of the crew.

*shrug* You're tellin' me what I already know there, Jack.

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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:17 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Jack, you should become a prepper! My dad and I like watching Doomsday Preppers on NTGEO, its a really fun show. At first I felt like maybe I shouldn't watch it because I thought they might be taking advantage of people with paranoia disorders to showcase on the show, but then I watched it and I think most of those people are totally neurotypical, or nearly so, so its okay to watch it without feeling like I'm taking advantage of someone. Its fun to watch, you could grow all your own food, stockpile ammo, teach your neighbors how to prep so they won't be coming to your doorstep when things get bad etc. and you guys could be your own prepper community.
I guess in some ways Byte does remind me of Zoe, she's real tough and brave like Zoe.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:23 AM

Suicidal does not equal bravery. I have evaluated my options, and it appears the only way for my life to have meaning is to die, and the only control I have over my life is when I die.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:58 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Selfishly I'm glad you haven't found your "cause" yet Byte. Maybe in the meantime you can find some other causes that will give your life meaning while you wait for your main one.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Jack, you should become a prepper! My dad and I like watching Doomsday Preppers on NTGEO, its a really fun show. At first I felt like maybe I shouldn't watch it because I thought they might be taking advantage of people with paranoia disorders to showcase on the show, but then I watched it and I think most of those people are totally neurotypical, or nearly so, so its okay to watch it without feeling like I'm taking advantage of someone. Its fun to watch, you could grow all your own food, stockpile ammo, teach your neighbors how to prep so they won't be coming to your doorstep when things get bad etc. and you guys could be your own prepper community.
I guess in some ways Byte does remind me of Zoe, she's real tough and brave like Zoe.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

Haha... I wish I had cable so I could see the ads to all these great new shows. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll get to downloading it right away

Paranoia today is nothing more than a keen observation of one's surroundings. But experience has taught me one thing, and that's I hate being the "I told you so" type after the fact.

If I do right by myself, I can do right by those I care about instead of shrugging my shoulders and telling them that. I'll make surplus stock for them and theirs, just because I know that anyone I'd take in if it got bad would feel they needed to further contribute for the ass-saving they got.

Being prepared for the future is key. I was a wreck when I posted around here regularly 6 years ago. I had just come off of a huge Credit Card debt and living on my Grandma's good will in her basement at pennies to the dollar I'd be on my own, and no Government benefits which I definitely would have qualified for.

I'm still very opinionated, and many of my views may be way out their for Righties or Lefties to swallow, but at least they come from a solid belief now, and not from some scared kid with no money, or assets, or shelter like they did back then.

My backyard is so big I could probably convert the entire thing into a garden and make a surplus of over 3000 dollars a year just growing vegetables and selling them at a farmers market every year. All of that money would be used to put solar power on the roof and maybe even a windmill in the middle of the pool hole crater I've filled in.

Sorry to all the squemish, but the more you build and create, and the worse times get for everyone, the more that means you have to stockpile guns and ammo and security systems to protect it. As it is now, nobody would ever rob my house or my 1996 Camry. When people unprepared are starving, they'll not only be looting my garden but they'll be strangling my bunnies for dinner.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Suicidal does not equal bravery. I have evaluated my options, and it appears the only way for my life to have meaning is to die, and the only control I have over my life is when I die.

Suicidal, on it's own, does surely not equal bravery. In many instances, to do the opposite would be the definition of bravery. But on the rare occasion, jumping on the grenade mitigates that, literally and figuratively speaking.

You're not suicidal.

You're not.

The fact that you're talking about it means that you're not.

It means that you've contemplated it, as many of us including I have, and it even means that in the past you may have half-ass attempted it as I have.

As I've said before, in the end, you're only hurting yourself in the long run. The most "sympathy" you can expect, being a "nobody" like you and I am, is anywhere from a few weeks to maybe 6 months. Of course, even 3 or 4 years after my uncle's suicide, it still effects me, but would you really want to be the one who did that and still controlled one of your nieces or nephews? I doubt it....

Life goes on for everybody else....

As much of a drama of your life you'd like to create, nobody else will understand it. Even of all the potential Van Gogh's out there, only 0.0001 percent of them are hearalded as geniuses and put into history books after the fact.

In the end, ultimately, the only thing any of us TRULY control, rich or poor, is a premature death at our own hands. Everything else is Lady Luck.

But I said it before, and I'll say it again....

You care too much about things to do it.

As to what people and or memories you hold on to, I could never guess, but there's somebody you're holding on tight to within your pshycie even if you haven't told them in real life.

Quote:
the only control I have over my life is when I die.

I just bring that up again to tell you that I know it's true....

And in the end if I did it, I know that life will go on for my brothers and the few real friends I have today...

But I think about how much good I can do to help them in their own lives.

Were I to swallow that pill, I would have been an ally in a tough world who just swallowwed the cyanide pill no reason.

That's not being a "martyr" that will be respected in the ages.....

That's just taking the easy way out.

I'm not even saying you're wrong, Byte.....

All I'm saying is that if you somehow have some irrisistable itch to die for the people you love, at least make it worthwhile and do some good with it. Otherwise, you can carry to your grave how many thousands to nearly a million dollars it took your parents and the government to raise you to this point.

Before you do anything stupid though....

I'd just like to say that I think You're much more valuable alive than dead

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:00 PM

Quote:
You're not suicidal.

You're not.

The fact that you're talking about it means that you're not.

...You may know one person who committed suicide, but you don't speak for everyone. Hey, yeah, let's dismiss the bejesus out of that, clearly they just want attention.

That is a good way to end up with a lot of dead people.

Look, if everyone stops talking about bravery and suicide and all that I'll stop too, fair enough? It's not like I really want to talk about it, I'm just always pissed off and angry and under certain circumstances that's what comes out.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:10 PM

Actually Byte, I've posted about the 3 people who have in my life who actually did, and the one person in my life personally (my brother), who I really hopes doesn't.

I'm just saying that in my experience, the 3 who actually did do it, did it without any warning.

The one who is still alive I believe wants to fight as much as when he was 6 years old and a massive brain hemorrhage and mulitlpe strokes were telling him he was going to die and he said Fuck you to the Reaper.

I'm not asking you to shut it off.

I'm not asking you to view my contradicting posts to yours on the basis of Kwick VS. Rap. in the RWED.

Read the other things I'm posting about to you rather than digging your heels in. I could say them all over again, but they're already out there.

I get it....

You're deep....

I've been in some VERY dark places myself before....

Don't let this silly little world make or break you.

"One finger parallel to the sky....."

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
You're not suicidal.

You're not.

The fact that you're talking about it means that you're not.

...You may know one person who committed suicide, but you don't speak for everyone. Hey, yeah, let's dismiss the bejesus out of that, clearly they just want attention.

That is a good way to end up with a lot of dead people.

Anyway, message received, I'll stop talking about it if people stop talking about it to me. Fair enough?

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:11 PM

Quote:

You're deep....

You're infuriating, and you don't know me at all.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:44 PM

grrrrrrrrrrr.........

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:07 PM

I am sorry about your three losses. I didn't mean to diminish that.

It's just, I'm not deep, or any of the number of other things you just said. You just don't know me.

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Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:54 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE: There is no way that I can convince you to take better care of yourself, is there? Because you sound exhausted, mentally physically and spiritually, and that could be anemia or any number of deficiencies. It would be a waste to have you run down while you're looking for a cause.

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Friday, June 1, 2012 6:46 AM

Except for my knowledge of the inevitable, I'm all right.

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I am sorry about your three losses. I didn't mean to diminish that.

It's just, I'm not deep, or any of the number of other things you just said. You just don't know me.

You're right Byte.... I don't know you. And no need for any apologies....

We're all "snowflakes", we all have individual fingerprints to identify us and I'd imagine that our own brains would be even better "brainprints" to identify us when the scientists/government figure out how to make it a cheap affair to further enslave us to the Corps.

I apologize for preaching, if that's what I was doing.

I'll just say, get a hobby or two to consume your time like I do. Find something that is both economically feesable for you and that you will enjoy on a daily or weekly basis and stick with it.

All I'm saying is that I believe you're capable of a litney of empathy for your fellow human beings, and that ability is going to waste in your self-absorbed existence now.

It takes one, to know one.....

Empathy for one's self 24/7 between sleep cycles is ultimately destructive and even deadly to those who are capable of it.

I believe that ANY arguments I've made about the government over the years, however true I believe them to be, ultimately are just excuses why I don't do more for other people in general, and/or my complete inability to "fix" broken people I care for.

It's all about baby steps.....

I was at Goodwill today. I had a 10 dollar coupon from two pairs of used jeans i bought there for "work jeans" that didn't fit me. They weren't due to expire for about 3 weeks. When I was checking out and pulled all the items out of the bag, I told the girl at the register I had to put the bag back because I was just using it temporarily because I didn't grab a cart and I ended up with a lot of small stuff I could barely walk around with. The 40something woman behind me laughed and said that's her only way of walking out of Goodwill without 200 bucks worth of stuff.

When I was done, I just gave the remainder to her, probably about 3.50 or so. She couldn't believe it. I'm sure it left her with change after the 3 books and one item of clothing she bought on 1/2 price Saturday.

As she thanked me, I just told her to "pay it forward"

In the end, what did that cost me? About 3.50 in Goodwill credit I might not have ever spent before it was expired. Even though it's 5 hours later, she's still probably smiling about the experience.

You and I don't need to change the world.... and there's no way we'd ever be equipped to do so....

Everyday there is an opportunity to make somebody smile though, and even though I pass on that opportunity on most days, I really love it when I show myself I'm capable of it.

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 7:11 PM

Sounds a lot like me and soda bottles...

We have a $0.10 deposit here, and I don't really mind cause one way to reduce litter is to provide financial incentive to pick that stuff up, I'm sure many a bum or wino has nailed himself a couple packets of ramen that way and beautified the neighborhood in the process, really it's win-win, plus recycling, waste not, want not.

Thing is, I really do not drink the stuff much, mostly I use it as a mixer for the cheap booze which is often all the painkiller I've got, but once the bottles pile up a bit I just bag em and haul em to the store with me...
Most of the time that happens, I see someone worse off than me, or someone with kids, standing in line to jam their bags thereof into the machines, and just hand em over - seriously I can live without that $1.40 or so, and as you say, the ability to brighten someone elses day just a little, spit in the eye of the notion we're all selfish assholes, is worth far, far more than any pittance them bottles woulda got me.

What you DO, is who you ARE.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:04 PM

Jack. You're doing it again. That thing where you try to help but frustratingly insult the person you're talking to.

Wallowing in self-absorption: I don't talk about this if I am not provoked into talking about this.

Frem: Usually when I help people it involves taking a consequence onto myself or failing utterly. I've gotten kind of used to that. You get to the point where every time you help someone you think "well, this is gonna hurt."

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 3:32 PM

Oh yes, but I REFUSE to let that stop me - it's prettymuch the masochism part of my Sadomasochism, really.

-F

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Sunday, June 3, 2012 6:34 PM

Quote:

Oh yes, but I REFUSE to let that stop me - it's prettymuch the masochism part of my Sadomasochism, really.

It's like the scene from from The Train Job. There's a choice, sure, you don't have to give them the medicine, it's just not a choice anyone would actually make.

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Monday, June 4, 2012 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Kiki, what you re-posted struck me the first time you posted it, and I fully agree. Especially with

Quote:
People with all their vaunted intelligence follow the drives implanted by evolution. We act a lot more like animals and not very much like the sapiens we call ourselves.

I also agree, Sig, that Anthony's condemnation and praise have been at least relatively equal...he sometimes shows a more reasoned response to government than others here...sometimes, that is. I'm not sure they're equal, but he definitely lives less in the black and white than many of us do. Admittedly, less so when it comes to Cuba, tho', which is easily understood given his background. I certainly have never observed him being unwilling to call out inequities in any country, certainly including our own.

Yes, Jack, I agree the problem is politics, but I think Sig's right nonetheless...politics IS a reflection of "us", as are governments, and their actions are pretty obviously those of most animal species, if you look carefully. She's also very right about agriculture and water, most of us have known about that for decades. You can go from there to water and "meat", and it's even worse. But mankind is an omnivore with a particular penchant for eating meat (I know some places don't eat it as much as we do in the US, but that's because their countries can't DO it), so that's how it goes.

Ooops, I see Magons has offered the pertinent facts and figures on that; thank you Magons. I knew the essence, but even I am surprised at the actual figures.

Places like Japan and much of asia aren't able to eat as much meat as we in the States; in Afghanistan at the time I was there, only the Shah ate beef because only he could afford it. The staple meat was lamb, which the Afghans subsisted on for their meat, their fat for oil and food ("fat-tailed sheep" as they're called, because of the huge deposit of fat in their oversized tails), and for commerce (that's where the tightly-curled karakul comes from). Japan, and those like them, subsist mostly on seafood for "meat", given their land mass' inability to provide for beef.

As to Cuba v. US, I'm afraid Sig is right insofar as we have many of the same issues DO match, in surveillance, infiltration, curbs on dissent, etc., that she elucidated. I wouldn't say we're in fear 24 hours a day, but we certainly have fears about speaking up, much less actually DOING anything contrary to TPTB's wishes (which, in our case, includes powerful corporations and people, as well as the government). Nonetheless, Anthony is right in that we haven't gotten to the EXTREMES of Cuba--yet--we have been progressing more and more along those lines for some time now. It is nonetheless still a matter of nuance and degree.

As to our ability to sustain the planet and feed everyone, and from that notion the idea that space will provide an answer, Kiki nailed it as far as I'm concerned:

Quote:
A long time ago someone mentioned this idea to me - we'll never be able to live in space. People are so exquisitely adapted to their environment that we'll never be able to reproduce it in every necessary detail. It's really stuck with me. As we find out more each year about what people really need in order to be well-nourished it drives home even deeper that we can't keep the planet well-nourished through agri-business-as-usual.

Riona, as long as you are unwilling to accept anything that limits population explosion--especially for the personal reasons you express--you are doing nothing so much as insisting on what's "nice" while dooming the planet, and all those lovely relatives, period. We cannot continue to reproduce the way you describe and keep our species, much less the planet, viable. That's the cold, hard truth; not every family can have a "family"; if we insist on doing so, we cause our own doom. What you're saying in essence is that everyone should be able to have the kind of family they want, for a few generations, then everyone dies...or at the very least, everyone suffers unimaginably and billions die until we regain a sustainable number and start multiplying again.

Ergo, you choose to deprive future generations of their survival so that current generations can have relatives...?

Jack, I agree with quite a bit of what you said when you started, but I take offense at the "At the same time, I don't agree at all with any proposed "solutions", especially when the Left doctrines, aside from it's desire to kill unborn babies". Bullshit. Nobody wants to kill unborn babies; some of us just want people to have the OPTION not to keep bearing them. One of the reasons those with so many babies support the left is because the right keeps making it more and more difficult for them to STOP having babies...their only real option is not to have sex, which ain't gonna work with ANY species. We want the OPTION of choosing ZPG or of not having babies because of some macho mentality which lets men keep getting women pregnant, then taking off when it's inconvenient. Phrasing it that we WANT to kill unborn babies is the kind of mentality that disgusts me.

I stopped reading after that, tho' I caught this: "given Darwin's laws, wouldn't it be the most cunning and intelligent that survived the ordeal?" Darwin's Laws work for animal species, not us; in our case, those who gained power and money THROUGH ANY MEANS, not necessarily intelligence, and in some cases CONTRARY to intelligence or ability, as in inheritance. And "cunning" is not a way for a species to survive, as it doesn't ensure the survival of the most viable genes. Beyond that, you just turned me off so I stopped reading.

Byte, you're right; the fact that someone talking about suicide means it's a cry for help and they won't actually do it is total bullshit. People talk about it because they're thinking about it...whether their lives change to make them not think about it anymore or they get more serious about it and succeed depends on the individual; statements such as that are stupid. So are trying to defend them or making assumptions about others regarding the issue. I'm with you, tho' I too wish you didn't feel that way. I respect how you feel, I understand it from my own experiences, and that's all I'll say.

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Monday, June 4, 2012 8:11 AM

Whenever someone starts to diss the possibility of space travel is about the time I have to leave any thread - or at least try not to get involved or dissociate from the situation.

There really just isn't anyway I can stay calm. In any case, you all know what I think, about space travel AND about population control, so there's no reason for me to get into it. I bow out.

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Monday, June 4, 2012 2:05 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Niki, I actually have very controversial opinions about who should be reproducing and who shouldn't be. I just think that peer pressure, from family, friends, logic etc. should dictate that, not the government. If the government wants to reduce population they can put out more info about how your bad genes are likely to pass on to your kids, that way people can think "hmm, I have three things wrong with my body that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy much less my kids, whom I would love more than anyone, maybe I shouldn't have any and save them and everyone else the trouble". Then no one has to force anything, because I don't believe in force, I believe in educating and encouraging. I figured out the right course for me, so I should hope that with logic others will think and figure it out for themselves too.

I've recently discovered that my views on encouraging certain people not to reproduce is quite controversial with some, I think I sort of got in a fight with someone the other day about it, but she's so obscenely optimistic and lame that she'll probably forget we had said possible fight so that's a good thing, because I don't want her telling our boss. My parents think my views are totally logical and fully support my choice to not reproduce. And whenever I have doubts about my choice I look at my little brother's bio mom, whom he was taken from when he was little, who didn't have the stammina to raise kids, plus who knows what he'll have different about him genetically by the time he's grown, and I say I'm glad about the choice I'm making. That being said though I'm so glad we have him, my life wouldn't be complete without him, life is such a double edged sword, the right thing isn't always the best thing etc. But still I refuse to end up like Megan and make kids I can't take care of.

But I don't believe in the government forcing anyone.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, June 5, 2012 7:06 PM

Don't tell nobody, but I give my 10 cent cans away to people I love who go to Michigan as a second house

If the gumment is going to tax me 3 bucks, I'll be happy to let somebody go out to MI and cash that 3 bucks in if they're bored....

The way I see that, it's MI's problem to make the system more "honest"

Besides, they deserve it... over 18 bucks for a 30 pack of shitty Icehouse in Michigan.... That's surprisingly worse than Illinois....

How is that even possible???????

Sorry MI.....

You reap what you sow....

You reap what you sow....

BTW... do you guys in MI really say "soda" instead of "POP"?

I just finally got used to saying POP again being back home, but my bro was over last night and still saying "soda" even though he moved out of WI about a year before I did. He says it's his military training.

I told him he has no claim to the Chicago White Sox then over the Cubs if he still says fucking "soda"

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:02 AM

I live on caffeine and gluten. Sometimes there are beans. I'm usually hungry, but I can't taste anything anyway, so it doesn't matter to me.

The caffeine makes my heart race, but I'm always tired, so I need it.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I live on caffeine and gluten. Sometimes there are beans. I'm usually hungry, but I can't taste anything anyway, so it doesn't matter to me.

The caffeine makes my heart race, but I'm always tired, so I need it.

Living on caffine, nicotene and booze as roughly 50% of my "diet" and 70% of my consumable expenditures. I can relate with the "no taste" thing...

Spice it up Byte and use hot peppers in your meals.

La Constintina make's a great pickled mix of Escabanche... but there are knock off brands that are a lot cheaper than that....

In my mind, there's no better comfort dinner for a cheapass than mac-and-cheese with a can of chili and 3 Escabanche peppers cut up in the mix. So filling and tastes so good..........

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 7:43 PM

don't taste anything, doesn't matter to me.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 5:19 PM