REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Aaaand, here we go AGAIN!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, August 25, 2012 21:12
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Friday, August 24, 2012 5:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Two dead, including gunman in shooting outside Empire State Building

[Updated at 9:55 a.m. ET] - At least 10 people were shot Friday in front of the Empire State Building in New York Friday morning, the New York Office of Emergency Management said.

A suspect in the shooting was shot and killed by police, New York police said.

Authorities converged on the building around 9 a.m. after reports of gunfire.

A witness told CNN's Rose Arce that the gunman ran after and shot a man in the head. An unarmed guard chased the gunman away, the witness told Arce.

Police have closed several several streets around 5th Avenue and 34th Street in Manhattan.

New York resident Max Kaplan, 22, said he heard at least nine gunshots. He said several ambulances have arrived at the scene.

"We're all very shaken up at the office," he said.

• Police shot the suspect, whose body is still lying outside the building covered in a sheet, witnesses said.

• A woman was also killed in the shooting, which occurred as people were lining up to gain entry to the busy tourist destination on 34 Street and Fifth Avenue.

• An elevator worker from inside the Empire State Building ran outside and began chasing the alleged shooter, CNN producer Rose Arce said. At some point police, who were apparently inside the building, were alerted and chased and the alleged shooter.

• Photos and messages from Twitter and other digital platforms that appear to be related to the shooting outside the Empire State Building are being collected by CNN.com social media producer Dorrine Mendoza on this Storify page. CNN editors are working to verify this information and will be updating throughout the day.

[Updated at 10:40 a.m. ET] New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is expected to speak at 11 a.m. after a shooting outside the Empire State Building Friday morning left at least two dead, including the suspected gunman.

[Updated at 11:08 a.m. ET] New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg is expected to speak soon after a shooting outside the Empire State Building Friday morning left at least two dead, including the suspected gunman.

I kinda figure, if Raptor can post anything and everything he thinks points to how horrible Muslims are and how we should all be "afraid, very afraid" of them, I might as well post all the instnaces of gunmen committing mass shootings to show how many of them go on in our country. I think we have FAR more to fear from that than from any "Sharia Law" takeover!

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Friday, August 24, 2012 5:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Apparently a disgruntled ex-employee, per Time.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/24/empire-state-building-shooting-lea
ves-at-least-two-dead/?iid=nf-article-trend-now


Government needs to do something about these disgruntled employees.

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Friday, August 24, 2012 6:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Disgruntled employee THIS TIME. Many other reasons other times. Whatever the reason(s), people are more frequently willing to act out in horrendous manners and kill innocents than they used to be.

Their reason(s) don't changes the fact that mass murders are taking place around the country on a fairly regular basis these days, which is my point.


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Friday, August 24, 2012 6:25 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Disgruntled employee THIS TIME.



Which, by its very nature, means it's not an "again".


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 24, 2012 7:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, feels like mass murder weather out there!


Hey, since we're not allowed to ever talk about guns or ANY kind of gun control, might as well talk about the weather...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, August 24, 2012 8:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup, feels like mass murder weather out there!


Hey, since we're not allowed to ever talk about guns or ANY kind of gun control, might as well talk about the weather...



...since gun control worked so well in this instance?

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Friday, August 24, 2012 12:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Their reason(s) don't changes the fact that mass murders are taking place around the country on a fairly regular basis these days, which is my point.




Although, in this case, it now appears that the shooter only shot his former co-worker and then walked away. The other casualties occurred when he was confronted by police on a crowded street and a gunfight ensued. It appears some of the wounded may have been hit by fire from the police.

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Friday, August 24, 2012 12:54 PM

WHOZIT


How could this happen? NYC has some of the strickest gun laws in the US.

How many cops have shot UNARMED BLACK guys with guns given to them by the NYPD?

It's only a matter of time until a teenage black child is gunned down by a NYC Police Officer who mistakes his snow cone for a Glock 9.

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Friday, August 24, 2012 1:09 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Their reason(s) don't changes the fact that mass murders are taking place around the country on a fairly regular basis these days, which is my point.




Although, in this case, it now appears that the shooter only shot his former co-worker and then walked away. The other casualties occurred when he was confronted by police on a crowded street and a gunfight ensued. It appears some of the wounded may have been hit by fire from the police.



But, I thought the cure to these shootings was arming more people?


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 24, 2012 1:26 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Their reason(s) don't changes the fact that mass murders are taking place around the country on a fairly regular basis these days, which is my point.




Although, in this case, it now appears that the shooter only shot his former co-worker and then walked away. The other casualties occurred when he was confronted by police on a crowded street and a gunfight ensued. It appears some of the wounded may have been hit by fire from the police.



But, I thought the cure to these shootings was arming more people?


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

It is, now go away cause you're stupid

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"


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Friday, August 24, 2012 3:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


*big sigh*


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Friday, August 24, 2012 5:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Lemme throw another thought on this pile here.

The decision of the cops in question to immediately start blazing away calls into question their training, mentality, and operational attitude, because no one, NO ONE, but me seems to have considered this.

They have Tasers - and a Taser can lock someone up and drop them in many cases FASTER than a bullet.
And while still more lethal than anyone on the force wants to admit, they are in fact LESS lethal than bullets and hitting a bystander would be less dangerous to them.
I mean, situations like this are WHY - if you believe the excuses any more - they were issued the goddamn things in the first place, folks.

But no, the first reaction of the officers is simply to haul out guns and blaze away, something most civilian CCW holders near-never do even in a situation that might justify it, the difference being a lack of accountability for such behavior amongst the boys in blue which downright encourages it.

The fact that they didn't deploy the Taser first in a situation which is EXACTLY WHY THEY HAVE THE GODDAMN THINGS, but have no problem using it on people who present no threat is both a personal failure of professionalism, and a failure of training/operations on behalf of the department - one that needs to be called into question, but will probably not be cause they'll whip up bullshit what-if-monkeys 'scenarios' to justify this failure, thus reinforcing it and encouraging it.

Mind you, if you miss or it fails to take, you CAN still shoot them yanno, sure there's risk, but they accepted that when they pinned on the badge, and pushing the risks onto people who didn't cause they do not wish to put their own ass on the line is immoral, cowardly, and tells me they got no damn business being cops.

-Frem

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 2:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Lemme throw another thought on this pile here.

The decision of the cops in question to immediately start blazing away calls into question their training, mentality, and operational attitude, because no one, NO ONE, but me seems to have considered this.-Frem



With more data, seems that might be the case.

Per BBC, the shooter had a .45 pistol, holding eight rounds. He fired five at his victim, and had two left in the gun after he was shot, so - assuming he started with a full gun - he fired once at the police.

The two police officers, on the other hand, fired at least 16 rounds, per the police commissioner. No reports I've seen on how many times they hit Johnson. So it's reasonable to assume that most of the wounded were hit by police bullets, ricochets, etc. It seems just luck that no one was seriously injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19372533

And there's some doubt that Johnson fired at all.

http://news.sky.com/story/976892/empire-state-gunman-did-not-fire-at-p
olice




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Saturday, August 25, 2012 3:32 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Lemme throw another thought on this pile here.

The decision of the cops in question to immediately start blazing away calls into question their training, mentality, and operational attitude, because no one, NO ONE, but me seems to have considered this.



You're not the only one! Well, I haven't heard specifically about tasers, but there certainly is a question about the reaction.

The thing I can't believe are the comments (on other sites - the whozit comment here is, as usual, useless) somehow claiming that if everyone carried a gun this wouldn't have happened. Big big WRONG to that! The shooter would still have gotten his shots off, and the subsequent firefight would have been 100 times worse. If supposedly cool, trained cops freaked and hit this many bystanders, what would have happened if every untrained panicked Wulfie-like hero wannabe also opened fire?


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Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...not to mention, Mal4, that the cops probably wouldn't have known which shooter was "the" shooter and might have shot one or more of those "heroes" by accident.

What bothered me was seeing the video of the shooter on the ground, cop standing over him pointing his gun at him for a good couple of minutes, and the shooter's arms moving, meaning he wasn't dead! Horrible thought, whoever it was, that it should be so.


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Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I dunno about that, Mal4 - one thing I *can* tell you, which'll ease your mind a bit...

I know a lotta CCW instructors, obviously, and not ONE of them would pass a nutter like the Wulfenwhiner, ain't just a matter of legal ass-covering neither, so much as the fact that they do not want armed crazies wandering around any more than the rest of us, doubly so cause it makes THEM look bad, yanno ?

And sure, you get the occasional sleazebag who'll pass anybody, or even some rightwingnut instructor - but those don't last too long cause their own lunacy is so damn self-destructive, depriving them of students and often as not having their cert pulled.

Ergo 99% of CCW holders, folks who've gone through all the rigamarole, who've actually had training (and often supplement it), they know when NOT to draw or fire, and NONE of them would just pound a whole clip at somebody like that, cause they know damn well they *WILL* have to answer legally for every bullet fired - which cops do not, that being the essential root of the problem, or at least half of it, the other being cops cannot shoot worth a damn.
They're NOT cool under pressure, they're NOT well trained, that is a myth.
I do not consider hitting a man sized target eight out of ten times at 15 yards once a year to be sufficient training for anyone, and it's hopelessly inadequate for a police officer - of course, they whine it's too expensive, but then spend all this money on war toys.. *hisss*.

Also, regarding the Aurora shooting, I asked a gunbunny friend of mine what he woulda done in the situation and he had a novel idea that might have been useful - mind you his answer was NOT draw his weapon... he would have popped off his surefire (this is a small but potent flashlight attachable to a weapon) and blinded the bastard with it.


Point of detail regarding the shooters weapon and whether he fired - the weapon in question has a SEVEN round magazine, in order to have a "full eight" he would have had to insert a loaded mag, prime the weapon, then remove the mag and add one round for what they call a full combat load.

I have my doubts about whether or not the shooter even knew this, and am quite sure he did not do so - ergo, seven bullets, all accounted for - he did not fire.
Although I think we can assume he was TRYING to draw a storm of fire on himself via suicide-by-cop, and they obviously obliged, when perhaps they shouldn't.


Personally I find it grating that the police response to a limited or non threat, is overwhelming force, but their response to an actual threat where civilian lives are in danger is to run and hide, leaving them to swing, or even corralling the victims - sure the officers on scene had no idea how much ammo the guy had, or if he had more weapons, yadda yadda, but he was ONE GUY, with a single visible firearm...
Basic tactics for that is to seperate at sharp angles and whichever one doesn't draw his attention uses the opening to take him out, even untrained street thugs are capable of that degree of tactics.

Piss-poor training, terrible execution, and above all things, I loathe incompetence.

-Frem

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:09 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Gorrammit, Frem,

Why is it that you turn out to be the sensible, logical, middle of the road voice on practically every question of street violence, police use of force and similar topics?

Rhetorical question, of course, but you are becoming my go-to pundit on those and similar questions.

I salute you, sir. Keep up the good work.

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:16 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
I dunno about that, Mal4 - one thing I *can* tell you, which'll ease your mind a bit...

I know a lotta CCW instructors, obviously, and not ONE of them would pass a nutter like the Wulfenwhiner, ain't just a matter of legal ass-covering neither, so much as the fact that they do not want armed crazies wandering around any more than the rest of us, doubly so cause it makes THEM look bad, yanno ?



Sorry, I don't know what CCW is.

Anyhow, I'm not talking about any kind of certified defenders. I'm talking about what the NRA thinks will solve all crime - every citizen holding a gun and ready to fire at the slightest provocation. So instead of getting off the bench and running, as those people in the NYC video did, they'd just 6-up and shoot. Then the people on the other side of the street would see shooters and shoot at them. And so on and on. If cops messed it up this bad, how bad would a bunch of hot head idiots make it?

After the Batman shooting, I posted about exactly this. In that chaos, no one know how may shooters there were (if I'd been there, I would have assumed there was more than one). It was dark and smokey, and I believe bullets even went through walls into other theaters. In the NRA's world, the reaction would have been like what happened in the NYC streets except it would not have been cops - who do have training. It would be nuts like Wulf firing back wildly, whether they know who and where the shooter is. They may take out the original bad guy, but probably also end up in a firefight with each other, hitting innocents and dwarfing the original tragedy.

Frem, it would be lovely if a cool head could have known what was happening in that theater and blinded the shooter. From how it went off, I don't know how possible that was. It would taken a lot of luck for anyone to be position to know what was happening and be able to react.

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Sorry, I don't know what CCW is.

Anyhow, I'm not talking about any kind of certified defenders. I'm talking about what the NRA thinks will solve all crime - every citizen holding a gun and ready to fire at the slightest provocation.



Wow! Have you been propagandized.

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 5:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Gorrammit, Frem,

Why is it that you turn out to be the sensible, logical, middle of the road voice on practically every question of street violence, police use of force and similar topics?


*laughs*

You know things have gone to hell in a handbasket when the friggin Anarchist winds up the voice of reason...

Mind you this actually irks me in a minor sort of way, when my sense of civic duty comes into conflict and collision with my villainous nature, and results in the equivalent of the Evil Overlord steppin out to shame the pitchforks and torches mob - I can play that off the "even evil has standards" card most of the time, but seriously, what have things come to when the so-called bad guys have to stand up for the morals supposedly expressed by our society when they can't be bothered to do so themselves.

Unlike many Anarchists, I acknowledge that most of the people here in the USA actually want a representative democracy, or at least the half-assed emulation of it that we have, and feel that taking things away via wrecking them (as too damn many so-called Anarchists would do) is every bit as tyrannical as forcing a system unwanted down someone elses throat, and so I *have* to support the Constitution and the Rule of Law, even swore an Oath to do so (which ironically wound up setting me at the throat of the folks who issued it to me) and thus firmly believe in holding to that as a minimum standard, you see.

There is also worth mentioning why Anarchists worth the name have such a strong sense of civic duty, it's cause they have to - without it they would be total hypocrites cause the whole belief centers around people cooperating and helping each other in lieu of any external structure forcing them to do so, ergo they HAVE to stand to and assist, to do any less would make all that they believe a lie.
We're not nihilistic bomb throwing lunatics, much as some would have you believe.


Mal4 -

CCW is the very basic Carry-Concealed-Weapon cert required to carry a concealed weapon, obviously.
And I firmly think that it would be a damn good idea to hold that level of training as a minimal standard for anyone who wishes to purchase one - alas that it's been proven (See Also: Jim March, Shall-Issue versus May-Issue) that the Government cannot be directly trusted with that decision, but I would firmly support offering indemnity from lawsuit to manufacturers and distributors in exchange for requiring such training as condition of a firearm purchase.

The cool thing is that it costs us nothing, the infrastructure is already there, instructors are inexpensive and ubiquitous, and the training itself is fairly standardized with allowances for the specific state the permit will be issued in.
It's a very sensible solution without adding more Government interference or stepping on anyones rights - although I have issues with revoking peoples right to bear arms for supposed "crimes" which prolly shouldn't be, but we can save that element of topic for later.

I do think the training is very important, for a fact I'd rather someone with the training but no weapon, than a weapon without the training - cause they'd be fully aware of problems like you mention and would very more likely act accordingly, although I think you have some misperception of the NRA and their stance on the matter, although for the record I dislike them as well simply because I feel they have failed to defend rights and become more self-serving than useful.

In regard to blinding/jacklighting a potentive shooter, this is actually a very standard tactic as well, in part WHY police cruisers have those powerful spotlights, or used to, as I notice many of the modern ones do not - being suddenly illuminated/blinded causes a reflex lockup in both humans and animals, so it's well worth a shot to forestall or mitigate a potentially violent situation.
In fact it's my go-to tactic to load the dice so far in my favor that it becomes more viable to negotiate, in the rare few situations where one of our local yahoos starts to think violence might work, flash blind them and move laterally to cover - I actually do not carry a firearm on duty cause there ain't no damn need for one, there's no place here you could fire without incidentally endangering someone and most of the local creeps don't carry either cause they do not wish to risk a felony beef if they get caught out casing/creeping.

Anyhows, this is what I do for a living, mostly what I have always done for a living in one form or another, which is why I am such a hardcase about proper training - Police seem to have fallen back on the notion of a fullisade of bullets as a universal solution simply because they know they will never actually be held personally accountable for it - what I call "when you have a hammer" syndrome, and something I train my people specifically against, we issue equipment for a fekkin REASON, and failure to use what we've placed at your disposal instead of resorting to violence... or if I even THINK they might do so... is a quick ticket off the premises, pink slip in hand.
We *ARE* accountable, financially if not otherwise, and I think that is a good thing, honestly.

-Frem

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

CCW is the very basic Carry-Concealed-Weapon cert required to carry a concealed weapon, obviously.
And I firmly think that it would be a damn good idea to hold that level of training as a minimal standard for anyone who wishes to purchase one - alas that it's been proven (See Also: Jim March, Shall-Issue versus May-Issue) that the Government cannot be directly trusted with that decision, but I would firmly support offering indemnity from lawsuit to manufacturers and distributors in exchange for requiring such training as condition of a firearm purchase.

The cool thing is that it costs us nothing, the infrastructure is already there, instructors are inexpensive and ubiquitous, and the training itself is fairly standardized with allowances for the specific state the permit will be issued in.
It's a very sensible solution without adding more Government interference or stepping on anyones rights - although I have issues with revoking peoples right to bear arms for supposed "crimes" which prolly shouldn't be, but we can save that element of topic for later.

I do think the training is very important, for a fact I'd rather someone with the training but no weapon, than a weapon without the training - cause they'd be fully aware of problems like you mention and would very more likely act accordingly, although I think you have some misperception of the NRA and their stance on the matter, although for the record I dislike them as well simply because I feel they have failed to defend rights and become more self-serving than useful.

In regard to blinding/jacklighting a potentive shooter, this is actually a very standard tactic as well, in part WHY police cruisers have those powerful spotlights, or used to, as I notice many of the modern ones do not - being suddenly illuminated/blinded causes a reflex lockup in both humans and animals, so it's well worth a shot to forestall or mitigate a potentially violent situation.
In fact it's my go-to tactic to load the dice so far in my favor that it becomes more viable to negotiate, in the rare few situations where one of our local yahoos starts to think violence might work, flash blind them and move laterally to cover - I actually do not carry a firearm on duty cause there ain't no damn need for one, there's no place here you could fire without incidentally endangering someone and most of the local creeps don't carry either cause they do not wish to risk a felony beef if they get caught out casing/creeping.



-Frem



Sounds like an interesting compromise, Frem. I see no reason why people in possession of a firearm should not be subject to at least similiar training and testing than those who wish to drive a car. How would you ensure standards were being met and rule out dodgy trainers? Training isn't much good if it isn't conducted well and consistently.

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Saturday, August 25, 2012 9:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well in order to run the classes, the instructors have to meet certain standards, which are enforced by the State, case in point, Michigans.

http://michigan.gov/mcoles/0,1607,7-229--148860--,00.html

While this does involve the Government as per compliance and standards, it puts them at a safe remove from actually interfering with or infringing upon Constitutional Rights, which is very important because every single time we have not kept them so, they have instantly and immediately simply refused to issue permits to anyone, a de-facto ban, Unconstitutional and illegal.

There was a big fracas over this in Flint, Michigan, when David Dicks (the same asshat behind the baggy pants laws) refused to issue any permits cause he didn't like the color of the people who were wanting them, that he was a blatant racist is kind of an open secret - Governor and former State Attorney General Jennifer Granholm (A Democrat, mind you) thoroughly kicked his ass about it, and shortly after the crime rate in Flint dropped to where Dicks was having to invent shit (again, baggy pants law) to give his officers something to do...

All that aside, the whole instruction thing is fairly well self-regulating, an incompetent or dodgy instructor will find themselves bereft of students quickly, word gets around yanno, and more extreme cases will find them with their credentials yanked pretty damn quick.

So we've already GOT everything we need, the existing system functions pretty well, and we can just, as I said, expand it to cover all purchases by offering dealers and manufacturers lawsuit indemnity in exchange for requiring such as condition of purchase.

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Thing is, them making money or political points off the situation, many law enforcement agencies, politicians, the NRA... they don't WANT the problem solved, you see.

You're never gonna find yourself in a world where some nutter cannot harm a bunch of people with a gun, knife, sharp stick, whatever - until we address some of the inherent insanity in our societies, sure - but we can at LEAST offer the bulwark of ensuring that most folk who possess a firearm know how and when to use it.

And when NOT to.

-Frem

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