REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why I Hate Capitalism

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, November 21, 2015 23:25
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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Peanut co. owner refuses to testify at hearing
Quote:

In mid-January after the national outbreak was tied to his company Parnell told Food and Drug Administration officials that his workers "desperately at least need to turn the raw peanuts on our floor into money."

"What is virtually unheard of is for an entity to disregard those results and place potentially contaminated products into the stream of commerce," Deibel said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090211/ap_on_go_co/salmonella_outbreak

Meanwhile....
Bankers vow to work for financial system reform
Quote:

Taxpayers are furious with big banks that benefited from the federal bailout designed to get credit moving again, but which also spent lavishly on executive bonuses, company retreats and office redecorating.


Merril Lynch Planned Secret Bonuses
Quote:

Merrill Lynch secretly moved up the planned date to allocate bonuses and then richly rewarded their failed executives," Cuomo stated.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/merrill_lynch_bonuses

The wife of accused Wall Street swindler Bernard Madoff pulled $15 million out of a brokerage account only days before her husband was arrested

Pa. judges accused of jailing kids for cash
Quote:

Prosecutors say Luzerne County Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan took $2.6 million in payoffs to put juvenile offenders in lockups run by PA Child Care LLC and a sister company, Western PA Child Care LLC. The judges were charged on Jan. 26 and removed from the bench by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court shortly afterward.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090211/ap_on_re_us/courthouse_kickbacks



If you have a system that is based on greed, that deems the greediest person to tbe the most successful, it is surprising that you develop a top echelon of the boundlessly, relentlessly greedy? Doesn't corruption naturally follow?
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

You got an amoral CEO, Banks which were given $$ by a 'Czar' that had no control over how the $$ was spent, Cuomo isn't anyone to talk about what happens on Wall Street, Madoff was crooked from the get go, and dirty judges.

Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:10 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Greed is a HUMAN failure

Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rapo... capitalism is NOT based on greed?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:39 PM

WHODIED


Capitalism definitely rewards greed, it's the carrot. For those who aren't that hungry, we also have the stick: fear.

EXPAND OR DIE, PEOPLE! THOSE WHO DON'T MAKE MORE WILL MAKE LESS!



--WhoDied


_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each
other significant glances and
laughing incessantly.



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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:47 PM

KIRKULES


The thing I hate most about our Capitalist system is that we don't enforce the laws and regulation that already exist. Rule of law is the foundation of a good Capitalist system. Not enforcing bad laws leads to arbitrary enforcement and causes them to remain on the books long after society has deemed them useless. Not enforcing good laws leads to lack of respect for the system and the abuses we've seen lately.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:58 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
Rule of law is the foundation of a good Capitalist system.

And it CAN be a good system. Streamlining existing laws might be a good idea.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:16 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.


Communism fails because it empowers certain human failings. Your argument transposed would mean the failures of communist societies are not failures of communism. If Capitalism as a system promotes human failings that then lead to undermine it, it's hard to see how that can't be a systemic failure of capitalism.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:21 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
If Capitalism as a system promotes human failings that then lead to undermine it, it's hard to see how that can't be a systemic failure of capitalism.


*sigh*
Logic.
That will get you nowhere, Cit.

Final word: Take what works in Capitalism, leave what doesn't, and mix it with the best from other styles, er, I mean socio-economic systems.


The Jeet Kune Do Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 2:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I head an interesting discusison today. It had to do with what motivates peeps to work. Wall Street says... "but we HAVE to dole out the big bonuses because how else will we attract executives?"

Funny thing... the kind of person they attract is the greedy bastard who is working ONLY for the big bucks. If you simply want to do a good job for decent pay, you don't fit the Wall Street culture! If they paid their executives LESS, they might wind up with a better type of executive (i.e. one not bent on robbing everybody blind and taking unrealistic risks with other peeps' money).

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


C'mon, Siggy - you'll never get rich with that mindset!

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
If they paid their executives LESS, they might wind up with a better type of executive

EXACTLY!!!
Not happy with 100 thou a year, eff U. Go find a better job, b***h.
I'm sure there's competent peeps out there that have a thing for the biz that would do it just fine.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:54 PM

DREAMTROVE


Sig, the banks are capitalist institutions. The peanut thing is not, it's just free enterprise, but we've seen that China has this same problem in spades, as did the soviet union.

But capital in capitalism refers capital, as in commodities, mineral wealth and currency. I agree, it's a sucky system. Still a lot better than socialism, but it's really a hobson's choice.

Free market enterprises way predate capitalism though. The two aren't the same. China is engaged in a lot of free market enterprise.

imho

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Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And then there is free software - free as in freedom, not beer - which, as I understand, you are using this very day. There ARE other ways of doing things !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Rapo... capitalism is NOT based on greed?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



No

Define " greed " , please.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Greed is a HUMAN failure

Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.


The laughing Chrisisall



Key word " unregulated ". The peanut butter facility was regulated, and the dirt bag CEO still chose not to do the right thing. Can't blame capitalism for that.

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 4:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Can't blame capitalism for that.
Of course I can. And I do.

If you were to read the article, you'd find that the company owner was all about turning those peanuts on the floor into money. That was his big concern, and his ONLY concern. Because companies that make high profits get to grab more market share and buy up other companies.

It's not that this guy was a "bad guy". It's that companies get no joy out of following the rules IF IT COSTS THEM MONEY because they will lose profits anf market share. Because companies that lie, cheat, and steal WILL out-compete companies that don't. Because in the end what really counts... under captailism... is survival of the most brutal and the most rapacious.

It has nothing to do with human nature. You could be the nicest guy in the world. Pay your workers a living wage, take that extra buck and reduce pollution, get involved in your community.... and you'll eventually be overwhelmed by the most noxious companies around. That's capitalism!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
If you have a system that is based on greed, that deems the greediest person to tbe the most successful, it is surprising that you develop a top echelon of the boundlessly, relentlessly greedy? Doesn't corruption naturally follow?



Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.

Quote:

Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally. We recognize that the gap between the rich and the poor is wider than at anytime since the 1920's.We strive to create economic opportunities for those who have been denied them and to advance new models of economic justice that are sustainable and replicable.
By definition, the manufacturing of products creates waste. We strive to minimize our negative impact on the environment.
The growing of food is overly reliant on the use of toxic chemicals and other methods that are unsustainable. We support sustainable and safe methods of food production that reduce environmental degradation, maintain the productivity of the land over time, and support the economic viability of family farms and rural communities.
We seek and support nonviolent ways to achieve peace and justice. We believe government resources are more productively used in meeting human needs than in building and maintaining weapons systems.
We strive to show a deep respect for human beings inside and outside our company and for the communities in which they live.



http://www.benjerry.com/our_company/our_mission/


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:09 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sig, the banks are capitalist institutions. The peanut thing is not, it's just free enterprise,




Don't be stupid. Free enterprise is the basis of all capitalism.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Don't be stupid. Free enterprise is the basis of all capitalism.


Actually he's right. Free enterprise isn't exclusive to capitalism. There's free enterprise in mercantilism, for instance. The major quantifying difference of capitalism is that it is focused on Capital, hence the name.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:50 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.
Quote: 'Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally.'"

Hmmm - yes. They are capitalists who actually agree that capitalism has the very flaws SignyM was mentioning. But, I suppose since they are capitalists, we needn't credit their very words with much meaning.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Can't blame capitalism for that.
Of course I can. And I do.




No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product. That's not merely poor management, but negligence on a pathological level ! It'd be like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and saying.... " as long as he stays alive, we're ok ! "



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:05 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product. That's not merely poor management, but negligence on a pathological level !


Depends what is meant by bad. Bad as in what he did is wrong, then yeah. Bad as in what he did is particularly exceptional, then no. I'd say most CEO's make those sorts of decisions. The 'formula' referred to in Fight Club, although part of a work of fiction, in that instance isn't too far from the truth. At all sorts of times, companies make decisions not on what should be done, but on how much it'll cost. In fact that is the norm. If polluting the environment costs less than treating it and the fine for not doing so, most companies will dump the waste. It happens time and again. In fact finding a company, like ben and jerry's with a soul, who do make moral not capital decisions, is the exception.
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It'd be like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and saying.... " as long as he stays alive, we're ok ! "


I hear some people do that too.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:08 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5.


Indeed, but all too often the rewards for some far out weigh their risks and work. For instance the managers of the financial sector.

I would think that over rewarding some, would be just as damaging as not rewarding anyone. As the present economic conditions might attest...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product."

B/c it probably wasn't the first time and he thought he could get away with it (again) - especially seeing as how the regulations and agencies are so toothless he didn't need to report the lab results AND the agencies have very little ability to shut the place down.

But that brings China to mind. First it was contaminated dog food, with measured protein content artifically boosted with toxic melamine. Then it was toys for little kids with lead paint. Then it was over-sulfated condroitin sulfate - boosted heparin which killed people. Then it was milk to which melamine had been added.

Did market forces find the problems ? NO. Just like with salmonella-contaminated peanuts, it was government agencies tracking illnesses and DEATHS that noticed. Did market forces fix the problems ? NO. In China, after a wave of scandals, officials simply jailed and shot the executives.

Capitalism is NEITHER self-policing NOR self-correcting.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.


And guns don't facilitate killing, because killings took place long before the gun was ever invented.
You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?



The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5."

So, Billy Gates did so much work and took so much risk he earned his multiple billions ? Is that why he's considered the patron saint of capitalism ?

At a cetain point you are more than compensated for any risk you took or any work you did. Let's take a look at Hewlett-Packard. Suppose you take a year off from your job to tinker in your garage. That's a year's worth of salary you've risked. Suppose you work night and day on your inventions. That's a year's worth of work you've risked. Suppose you borrow money. That's a loan's worth of risk. It seems that when you are compensated for those risks the balance sheet evens out and puts you on par with pretty much anyone else who does the work.

***************************************************************

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Just so I get this straight. When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point, it's a bad thing. But when YOU do it, it's perfectly O.K. and legitimate ?

Glad we've cleared that up.






It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:29 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point ..."

To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5."

So, Billy Gates did so much work and took so much risk he earned his multiple billions ? Is that why he's considered the patron saint of capitalism ?

At a cetain point you are more than compensated for any risk you took or any work you did. Let's take a look at Hewlett-Packard. Suppose you take a year off from your job to tinker in your garage. That's a year's worth of salary you've risked. Suppose you work night and day on your inventions. That's a year's worth of work you've risked. Suppose you borrow money. That's a loan's worth of risk. It seems that when you are compensated for those risks the balance sheet evens out and puts you on par with pretty much anyone else who does the work.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




A year ? How do you leave a job and only account for it costing you ONE year ? Might be that's how much time you took off, but you may also get fired from HP, and that ends up costing you far more than a year. While not at work, you're risking your house, your car, your marriage ( assuming you're married ) , your health..how the hell are you going to measure those things? Sorry, but you as final arbiter isn't exactly a reasonable and fair assessment of what 'risk' is. Also, the purpose of the risk isn't merely to come out even with what you put in, you're DOING all this so as to get a head. Staying right in the same spot, why risk anything if that's all you're gonna get back ?

You don't think things out too well, do you ?



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:31 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



It's called LIFE.

Try it sometime.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:34 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So, as usual, you don't actually have a point.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Greed is a HUMAN failure

Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.


The laughing Chrisisall



Key word " unregulated ". The peanut butter facility was regulated, and the dirt bag CEO still chose not to do the right thing. Can't blame capitalism for that.

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



This topic serves as a great example of why regulation is good, and why tort reform is a bad idea. Follow along; there may be abstract ideas here. Try to keep up.

Yes, this was a "regulated" plant in a "regulated" industry. How's that working out lately, since oversight has been cut off at the knees and people to enforce regulations have been stretched thin for years?

How it's working out is like this: More and more often, plant owners like this dirtbag decide to "unregulate" themselves, figuring they'll play the long odds. What's the worst that could happen, right? They figure, worst case scenario, a couple people MIGHT get a li'l sick - and if they do, they won't report it, or it won't get noticed as a pattern, and it won't get investigated, and if it does, it won't lead back to them. They don't count on anyone DYING, that's for sure.

Imagine how much more common this kind of behavior would be if the industry were deregulated. This wouldn't be the exception; it would be the norm.

Now, about tort reform. It seems that those who are most in favor of deregulation of ALL industry in this country are also most in favor of capping liabilitiesg and punitive damages at $100,000 maximum. So in a case like this, where *only* nine people died, there'd be a maximum lifetime payout of $900,000.00 And if you could make an extra million bucks or so shoving the bad product out the door, you're money ahead, even with the deaths.

Like I said, this case makes a good case for MORE regulation (or at least more enforcement of existing rules) and LESS tort reform. This dickhead should be sued out of his last pennny and any pennies he may ever earn in the future, and THEN he should be buried under the jail. If convicted, of course. And his breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day in jail should be peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, made with back-stock of his own product.


Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product
Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

NAAAAAHHHHH....

No capitalist would be that stupid!


Geezer: Ben&Jerry's versus Walmart. That's capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



It's called LIFE.

Try it sometime.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Your life is a work of fiction?

That explains an awful lot...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


But to get back to an actual discussion (you should try it some time Rap) - whether you take a year off or two, whether you lose your job or keep it, whether you lose your home or not - those risks are QUANTIFIABLE and therefore limited. And therefore your compensation for those risks should be quantified - and limited.

As to marriage and health - you know, the person could be such an jerk that the marriage wouldn't have lasted anyway. Or they could have had such unhealthy habits they would have lost their health no matter what.

I don't know of ANY capitalist current or historical who invested their health into a company. OTOH I know - personally - many people who have lost their health dues to dangerous jobs, bad products, and faulty services that SOMEBODY made a profit selling.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:43 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product
Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

NAAAAAHHHHH....

No capitalist would be that stupid!


Geezer: Ben&Jerry's versus Walmart. That's capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.



Sig, that's not fair - everybody knows that Barney Frank FORCED those bankers to make those loans!

Right?



Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:45 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But Rue, didn't you see where AuRetard already ruled that you aren't qualified to be the final arbiter of risk? Apparently, you aren't, but he IS! Because, y'know, AuRetard deals only in "Rap Facts".

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:53 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey, that's "Rap facts" TM to YOU, sir !

One of these days it'll be in the common parlance and it'll be a money maker, that's for sure. Gotta' make sure my rights to a profit are protected for all my risk !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:54 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Rap Facts"


Rap Facts ™

Surely that's trademarked.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:59 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just so I get this straight. When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point, it's a bad thing. But when YOU do it, it's perfectly O.K. and legitimate ?

Glad we've cleared that up.


No, I used a work of fiction for an allegory to better illustrate what I was talking about. And, I might add, clearly pointed out that it was a work of fiction and I wasn't using it to prove anything. You on the other hand, pointed to a work of fiction and said "see, proof!!"

There's a world of difference, if you need help seeing it, tell me and I'll break the crayons out.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:01 AM

CHRISISALL



Quote:


Originally posted by AURaptor:

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.



Quote:

And guns don't facilitate killing, because killings took place long before the gun was ever invented.
You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?



I was wondering AU, did you avoid commenting on this simply because you do not understand what the word "facilitate" means?



The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:22 AM

MALBADINLATIN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

You got an amoral CEO, Banks which were given $$ by a 'Czar' that had no control over how the $$ was spent, Cuomo isn't anyone to talk about what happens on Wall Street, Madoff was crooked from the get go, and dirty judges.

Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.

For the love of God...I agree with Raptor from one end of his post to the other...without and any "but"s. In fact...governmental control of areas in societies where greed usualy thrives is ultimatly counterproductive. Greed is only a symptom of corruption which in turn has it's roots in our unavoidably unchangeable human instinct. If all humans were to abandon it and just be all "Jesus nice" to each other...natural selection would select us for downsizing or extinction. Life isn't always easy and backed up by noble law enforcenment...that's the fairy tale Americans lived from 1948-1998.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:26 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.


For the love of God...I agree with Raptor



Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Greed is only a symptom of corruption which in turn has it's roots in our unavoidably unchangeable human instinct."

Every time I see a 'human nature' (or instinct) notion, I think the person doesn't have an argument - just an opinion. And that opinion is usually some variant of social Darwinism.

So: Is it human nature to die for another ? Is it human nature to take pleasure in cooperating ? Is it human nature to invent without the lure of greed ? Is it human nature to love ? Is it human nature to value things that aren't economic ? Is it human nature to sacrifice time, effort and resources to raise children without recompense ? All of these are historically and scientifically proven things.

And how does that stack up against your opinion of humanity as individualistic greedy grubbing economic machines blind to everything else ?

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Silence is consent.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rapo's remark about captialism is very much like the remarks I hear about relgion: If it wasn't for the greed/ corruption/ narrow-mindedness/ bigotry/ fill-in-the-failing-of-the-month the system would be just fine!

Some peeps make a religion out of religion. Others make a religion out of capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.
Quote: 'Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally.'"

Hmmm - yes. They are capitalists who actually agree that capitalism has the very flaws SignyM was mentioning.



Well, they are apparently capitalists who aren't greedy, which sort'a busts SignyM's whole "All Capitalists are Greedy" schtick. I could probably find an example of this non-greedy type of capitalist for every Peanut Corporation of America version SignyM can find. A lot of capitalists, including many successful capitalists, aren't greedy.

And greed isn't exclusive to the capitalist economic system either. Socialist and Communist factory managers have a history of forcing workers to produce shoddy and often unusable or dangerous goods so they can meet production quotas which have nothing to do with demand. They do this to get benefits and perks not available to their workers. In other words, they're greedy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


I could probably find an example of this non-greedy type of capitalist for every Peanut Corporation of America version SignyM can find. A lot of capitalists, including many successful capitalists, aren't greedy.

And greed isn't exclusive to the capitalist economic system either. Socialist and Communist factory managers have a history of forcing workers to produce shoddy and often unusable or dangerous goods so they can meet production quotas which have nothing to do with demand. They do this to get benefits and perks not available to their workers. In other words, they're greedy.


I don't disagree with any particular part of this.


The laughing Chrisisall

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