Thank Joss for Subtext (aka. Ho!Yay!) by JaynesGirlfriend

I'm not sure "subtext" is the right word. But it is true that Whedon has some interesting insights into the whole sexual identity thing, and is good at mining them for humor, irony, and the odd subplot. Which is just good storytelling, unless you a person who gets all crazy at the slightest implication of "deviance."

Which makes me wonder why we haven't heard more from the God Hates Fags types. I would have thought they'd be mounting a campaign to have Joss Whedon run out of Hollywood by now. I guess intolerance isn't as popular as it used to be.

Anyway, I'm sure that at a certain level, there's something to all your homoerotic "truths". There always is. But at the surface level, where the official stories get told, I think everybody is pretty thoroughly heterosexual.

Yeah, I know, Mal seems to think Inara is a gay. That's just his way of avoiding his own infatuation with her.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:59 PM

Jeez, Z, leave it to you to suck all the fun out of imagining the crew of the Firefly in massive gay orgies.

Of course the case for the true existence of subtext is made stronger by the fact that this is a Joss show. Joss himself has said that almost all of the relationships on Buffy are romantic in nature at some level, so it just stands to reason that the same would be true of Firefly. In fact the gay subtext surrounding both Kaylee and Inara has been so thick it can hardly be called sub anything. Even if they never have a homosexual relationship on camera the subtext will still be there.

And if the followers of Ho!Yay! are really, really lucky, yummy slashy fan fiction will be written.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend: Jeez, Z, leave it to you to suck all the fun out of imagining the crew of the Firefly in massive gay orgies.

OK, my sexual preference is usually not a subject of online discussion. But I have to say: ewww! Or as Xander would say, "That's a scary place to go."

I did find that scene last week very funny. You know, the one where the girl says, "Did everybody at this table sleep with each other?" And Spike and Xander look at each other nervously.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:11 AM

Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

an armed society is a polite society

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:29 AM

HJERMSTED

Quote:
but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature.

Actually you are mistaken. There are all kinds variations in sexual behavior in the animal kingdom. I'm no zoologist, but I do remember learning about a species of ape that was fully bisexual. I was also surprised to learn dolphins tend to hump everything that moves whether it is also a dolphin or not.

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:33 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

Actually, homosexuality is well-known among other animals. http://www.geocities.com/baggylevis/gay_nature.html

Also, not only gays can enjoy a show featuring gay people. I am not a thief, but I enjoy a show about thieves; I'm not a woman, but I enjoy several shows about women. I also enjoy a show about space ships, and they are most certainly unnatural.

And as for homosexuality being selected against, I direct your attention to sickle-cell anemia. Its victims die out, yet the disease persists. Why? Because the gene that creates it is beneficial in some circumstances.

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 9:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: but I know the homosexuals are unnatural

You know, you're going to have to either learn to live with "unnatural" people, or give up on being a Joss Whedon fan. It's not that he has that many gay characters (though probably more than you would care to see). But he does do a lot of stories that play on issues of sexual identity. It's subtle enough that most people don't notice -- but now that you know what to look for, you'll probably see it all the time.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBlue: [Also, not only gays can enjoy a show featuring gay people. I am not a thief, but I enjoy a show about thieves; I'm not a woman, but I enjoy several shows about women. I also enjoy a show about space ships, and they are most certainly unnatural.

If God had meant us to go into space... hmm.

I'm neither gay nor a woman, but the Buffy character I most identify with is Tara. The stammer, the "life in a shadow" thing -- very familiar. And if you can't be moved by her relationship with Willow -- well, that fits my definition of "unnatural".

It might suprise some of you to hear this, but I probably have just as many personal issues with homosexuality as does loonytoons. The difference between us is that I know my sexual preferences and dislikes are something that belong to me, not the natural order of the universe.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted: I was also surprised to learn dolphins tend to hump everything that moves whether it is also a dolphin or not.

The erotic obsession of dogs with human legs is well-established. :smile:

I'm told that some stock breeders actively dislike heterosexual bulls. Since most breeding is done by artificial insemination, they prefer bulls that are attracted to steers (commonly known as "queer steers") or inanimate objects, since that makes it easier to obtain the, uhm, product.

The big mistake Loonytoons makes is equating sex with reproduction. If that were true, Hugh Hefner would have to get a day job! It's true that sex is essential to reproduction, but reproduction is not all there is to sex. It has all kinds of social and (duh!) recreational functions.

Which is the big flaw in the "nature selects against homosexuality" argument. Only one sexual encounter in a thousand produces offspring. And even in dominately homosexual cultures, such as classical Sparta, that one contact is not that hard to arrange.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 10:35 AM

HAKEN

Likes to mess with stuffs.

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural

I have friends who are homosexuals. As a matter of fact, I have friends who are bi-sexuals. I hate to think that they're un-natural because it would mean that I'm un-natural by association and that my wife and kids are deviants.

Besides, one can't really tell what my friends' sexual preferences are unless they specifically said so. I suspect that many of us are surrounded by people who are homosexuals and not even know it. Does that mean we are all un-natural for associating with them? See where I'm getting at?

Things that consenting adults do in their private moments are their business. It doesn't make them evil. It doesn't make them lesser than the rest of us.

The one exception to this in my book is pedophilia. I absolutely do not condone it. If there is anything in this world that's un-natural, it's that.

Anyway...I apologize for the slight rant.

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:24 AM

BACCHUS68

You now I don't really see Mal or Jayne as Gay at all. Inara can most likely be BI. but I agree with you on one thing.

1:Simon is so Gay.

Not that there's anything worng with it. I personally wish the Bi subtext between Kaylee and Inara would be explored because well they are both really Really hot but as far as Simon I don't know why but I really do think he's gay. And I'm not talking slash fictiony type or even just old subtext. Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

I think Joss is going to keep Simon's sexuality a secret for awhile and then unless the Fox censors have a cow he will come out as a gay character in a future episode of the show.

I do think thought that Joss will have a hell of alot tougher time getting his ideas past the suits at fox then he did at WB and UPN though. Time will tell but I doubt you will see a Mal/Simon thing unless your dealing with fanfiction of some Spike type stalker thing from Simon towards mal.

Book I have no Idea what his sexuality is but since I don't think he's shown signs either way he could be gay. It would be a weird twist to have a gay priest. Wait what am I saying having a non-gay priest would be the twist. I mean having a gay priest character on the show.

Actually the controversy that would rile up from the catholics and the whole moral majority if that was the case would probably jack the firefly ratings up 2 points. Note to Joss: make Book the gay characer on the show and start a romance with Simon so you can get better ratings.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :)

Bac.

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haken: The one exception to this in my book is pedophilia. I absolutely do not condone it. If there is anything in this world that's un-natural, it's that.

Pedophilia isn't an exception -- it's just an obvious case of a common moral rule: it's very wrong to gratify yourself sexually at the expense of an unwilling partner. And even worse to do so if the partner is somebody who can't say no for any reason, including lack of maturity.

Of course, people are more put off by sexual abuse of children than by other kinds of sexual abuse. Which is hardly suprising -- most people have a strong desire to see children safe and happy.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68: You now I don't really see Mal or Jayne as Gay at all. Inara can most likely be BI. but I agree with you on one thing.

1:Simon is so Gay.

Not that there's anything worng with it. I personally wish the Bi subtext between Kaylee and Inara would be explored because well they are both really Really hot but as far as Simon I don't know why but I really do think he's gay. And I'm not talking slash fictiony type or even just old subtext. Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

I think Joss is going to keep Simon's sexuality a secret for awhile and then unless the Fox censors have a cow he will come out as a gay character in a future episode of the show.

Bac.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. For being the only one to take this thread in the spirit in which it was intended. But in case I haven't been specific enough:

I don't care if anyone on the show turns out to be gay. Nope, not really. I like to look for little things. Little subtextual notes in the body of the episode; an ambiguous line, a smoldering look that whether intended to or not might give the viewer the impression that a specific character might be gay. For example the "experiment" line Inara said to Kaylee during The Train Job. Or just the way Simon looks at Mal like the Captain's the next dish in a gourmet meal.

Why? Because its fun! If you do it right its fun! And doesn't devolve into either religious or political discussions. Cause I honestly couldn't give a great leaping crap what some small minded bigot like loonytoons(seriously, you have the Yosemite Sam mudflaps don't you) thinks of people who live "alternative" lifestyles. As a bisexual female myself I'm more than comfortable with my sexual identity and defending it is really not much fun.

But you know what is fun? Gathering subtextual evidence that supports the theory that Simon is gay! That's what floats my boat.

If you don't agree with me please restrain yourself to threads that aren't this one. And if you do, for God's sake post something fun and save me from my angry madness.

Here endeth the rant. I feel better now.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:11 AM

WOLFRAM

OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world. Jayne's Joan Collinsy tude towards Simon is just a cover for an affair that they're having, and Jayne's keeping it a secret from Mal, who he really loves.

Burn the ships and boil the fics, but you can't take the slash from meeeeeeeeeeeee! LOL!

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 6:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68: Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :) .

Okay, whether or not I like gays, Saffron did not hit on Book, Kaylee, Zoe, Simon, River, or Jayne. Matter of fact, she insulted Jayne and Zoe.

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

And why would guys like lesbians, it ticks me off more than male gays, cuz its a little annoying for cute girls not to like guys!

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: And why would guys like lesbians, it ticks me off more than male gays, cuz its a little annoying for cute girls not to like guys!

Jeez, guy, you get "annoyed" awfully easily. Do you expect the whole world to re-arrange itself to fit your prejudices?

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 7:07 AM

All I`m saying is that I don`t see any reason why two cute girls being lesbians would imprees straight guys, I would rather see two straight guys getting lucky with two cute girls. And just food for thought, about %87 of child molesters molest same-sex children. Not an insult, just reporting the facts. Call `em like you see `em.

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfram: OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world.

In the unaired pilot we get to see Mal bossing Jayne around a lot. My theory is that while they're a very devoted couple Jayne is afraid if the others know he's gay it'll undermine his big scary guy vibe so Mal has the ultimate blackmail material to get Jayne to do whatever he wants. Yeah, I've given this way too much thought. :biggrin:

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:10 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Quote:
Originally posted by bacchus68: Did you notice that except for River the ONLY Person saffron didn't hit on was Simon.

On and for the guys put a Kaylee/Inara sexual lovemaking teaching thingy going too :) .

Okay, whether or not I like gays, Saffron did not hit on Book, Kaylee, Zoe, Simon, River, or Jayne. Matter of fact, she insulted Jayne and Zoe.

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

Hate to admit this one, but I think that LT actually has a valid point here.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Friday, October 11, 2002 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon:

And girls have been doing each others hair for thousands of years, I don`t see why in 500 years it will be a sighn of being gay. I have even heard the exact phrase that you are talking about, with regard to HAIR not sex.

It wasn't what she said, it was the way she said it. You may not have heard anything flirty in her tone, but I did.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Friday, October 11, 2002 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn: Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend: It wasn't what she said, it was the way she said it. You may not have heard anything flirty in her tone, but I did.
Hmm. Maybe you heard exactly what you wanted to hear. :smile:

Hmm, if I were hearing exactly what I wanted to hear Inara would have been coming on to me.

As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure her picture in the credits has been aggressively flirting with me since the first episode. That little 'ho.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Friday, October 11, 2002 9:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: All I`m saying is that I don`t see any reason why two cute girls being lesbians would imprees straight guys,

No, you said that guys who like lesbians "annoy" you. Do people who like food you hate "annoy" you? Sounds like all person has to do to "annoy" you is to have even a minor detail of their sexual wiring different from yours. Here's a flash, dude: everybody is wired differently.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

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Friday, October 11, 2002 1:43 PM

WILLIAM

Everybody is different !

I don't see the point in this. If a character on Firefly turns out to be gay/bi, I don't really care so much, cause it's the personality of the character which is far more important.

I mean they probably won't even make it a big deal over it, one moment a character, whether male or female is eating his/her lunch, the next he/she is kissing someone of the same sex. Who really cares ? You know who cares? People who are small-minded, insecure and have nothing better to do.

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Friday, October 11, 2002 3:05 PM

DARKANGELSLAYER

I so agree with you William!

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Friday, October 11, 2002 3:10 PM

WILLIAM

Thanks DarkAngelSlayer :)

Do you happen to be a Buffy fan ?

Cause if you are, how do you think Buffy should end ? I posted a thread at the buffyverse, no one is replying. And it's been like a week.

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Sunday, November 03, 2002 8:37 PM

TIMEO

To Loonytoon:

Hey, and did you know that 98% of child molestations are done by heterosexuals? Don't spit off statistics that don't present the full picture.

To everyone else:

Hehehe. And to add to this discussion, I wouldn't mind if Simon is gay (though that would be kind of cool), but currently, i'm liking the whole Kaylee quasi-non-existant relationship thing. But i'm looking out for signs of homosexuality...hehehe.

(is it just the manners? Is that what's getting you guys thinking he's gay?)

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Monday, November 04, 2002 2:11 AM

PANIC

I agree that Simon's manerisms are somewhat effeminate, but I don't actually see much evidence that he's gay. As one of the minority in the crew that had anything like a formal education (Book, River and Inara behing the others), he is certainly quite a bit more polished and sophisticated than, say, Jayne. However, just cause he's not all rough 'round the edges doesn't mean he's gay.

In fact, wasn't there that scene between he and Kaylee at the bar in Jaynestown? He certainly seemed quite smitten with her. Then denying his affection for her to Mal was quite the Hetero thing to do! It seems to me that an attractive gay man would have been in that same situation many times before, and he we be much more skillful at redirecting the attentions of a young women.

Thoughts?

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Monday, November 04, 2002 2:55 AM

Yeah, but did you see his face when Kaylee said they'd slept together? You could just tell he was thinking, "I did that...with a girl?" And who says just cause Jayne's all manly and sorta dim he can't be just as gay as Simon? I mean, he did seem awfully excited to get naked in front of mostly guys. :wink: (the wink means I'm just playing, see, and I mean not to offend anyone who objects to reading about homoerotic subtext in a thread that was created to talk about the homoerotic subtext...and good Lord, I'm still bitter aren't I?) :blush:(added cause I think it looks smutty)

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Monday, November 04, 2002 5:04 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

I think Simon was horrified that he might have taken advantage of Kaylee. Heaven forbid he "appear indecorous."

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Monday, November 04, 2002 6:05 AM

ESME

Oh Jayne's Girl- you slay me. Really though, nothing pisses me off more that a post that says "who cares?". (see below) We do, buddy and if you don't then stop reading! Also- the great thing about JW is that anything is possible- and sorry, but mutual hair dressing is totally erotic, be it man-man, man-woman, woman-woman, woman-man....

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Monday, November 04, 2002 6:08 AM

ESME

Dear William- If you don't care, then why do you post here? Go find a thread you care about. (Not being sarcastic, really.)

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Monday, November 04, 2002 7:39 AM

SENSOU

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Not everybody is gay, you shouldn`t contort the show to appeal to a very small minortity. And by the way, I don`t believe in god so whether or not he hates you I don`t know, but I know the homosexuals are unnatural, as humans are the only species on the planet that practices it, because humans want to believe them selves above nature. Give it a hundred years, you will most likely be killed off as evolution is not kind to those that cannot procreate(morally, at least).

an armed society is a polite society

While I agree with you that a show should not be contorted to a very small minority, I detect some flaws in your reasons why. Will: Oh, s**t, you've got her on her soapbox now.

Actually, homosexuality is quite natural, occuring in about 10% of any given population. You no more decide to be gay than you decide to be short. The latest theroy is that it is determined by genetics. As for the "natural world", there are gay animals. Wolves come to mind as do horses, like the one from Will & Grace. And there's always the queer giraffes :smile: Of course, you are allowed to believe whatever you wish.

Sensou Sweet is love when all is sane Sweet is death to end the pain Cruel is death when all is well Curel is love when all is hell

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Monday, November 04, 2002 7:43 AM

SENSOU

Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfram: OK, getting away from the stupidity and back to the topic, I went hopping off searching for slashy ships from eppie one. My theory: Mal and Jayne, long-together couple in my world. Jayne's Joan Collinsy tude towards Simon is just a cover for an affair that they're having, and Jayne's keeping it a secret from Mal, who he really loves.

Burn the ships and boil the fics, but you can't take the slash from meeeeeeeeeeeee! LOL!

Oh, crap it's Gundam Wing all over again!!!!

Sensou Sweet is love when all is sane Sweet is death to end the pain Cruel is death when all is well Curel is love when all is hell

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Monday, November 04, 2002 9:25 AM

PANIC

For your learning pleasure:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=585&e=1&cid=585&u=/nm
/20021104/sc_nm/science_sheep_dc

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Monday, November 04, 2002 10:30 AM

JAYNELOVER

Simon's totally gay! In Jaynestown, when he was getting drunk with Kaylee and Jayne was off w/ his fans, Simon was being all mopey about Jayne! As the Television Without Pity recap pointed out, he was acting like someone who had just been dumped. And he's always giving looks full of longing to Mal and Jayne, but he just acts bored and uncomfortable around Kaylee. That boy's way gay and I don't even think he's that aware.

The HoYay factor on this show is very high, even more so than on Angel. But it's fun that way. :wink:

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man. Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:16 AM

Yeah, Jaynesgirlfriend, your still bitter, and I`m still an extremely conservative prick but I`ll try to be polite in this post.

First, you can make anything appear to be something other than what it is if you think about it the wrong way. That can go both ways.

Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay! Now with a captive population, and possible human tampering, it is much more likely to happen.

Third, one of the things that bothers me is that many people think they are gay because its "in". I have met quite a few people that come out of a bad relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and assume it is because they are a (usually) a man, so they pull the ol` switch-a-roo, and poof! There gay! But they are quite often just as miserable or more with another man/woman. Or they think they are gay because they mistake feelings of very deep friendship as love. They are quite similar feelings, at times.

As for the statistics, timeo, you don`t give a source either so I`m just as credible as you. And I doubt 2% of the population is truly gay, maybe 1%.

As for the hair, it is not always, or even usually, erotic. My sister does her friends hair, but she is VERY straight! Now if you show me Jayne putting Simons hair in pigtails, you might be on to something!

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:00 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay!

Your understanding of biology is clearly lacking a bit.

First of all, a recessive genotype can be expressed in children of parents who are both heterozygous (that is, the dominant allele is expressed, but the recessive allele is also present). This is why recessive traits very seldom die out completely. Since people who don't possess the trait can be carriers, they can hang on for a long time even if they're harmful.

Second, not all phenotypes are as simple as recessive/dominant. It might be necessary for one gene to have the right co-dominant relationship and another to be recessive, or any other combination.

Thirdly, I've already posted an article discussing how common homosexuality is among animals, so I don't see why you think your anecdotal evidence (based solely on animals you've hunted) is especially useful.

And back on topic: Firefly needs to do a crossover with Smallville. They could get in a fight over which show is gayer, and it could end with them rolling around in the mud, and...er...let's just say nobody would be left standing.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:07 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Oh, and while we're on the topic of biology and recessive traits: if a trait is recessive, that does not make it rare. Right now, count how many fingers you were born with on each hand. If your answer is 5, then congratulations, you are in possesion of a recessive trait. Yes, that's right. The gene for six fingers on each hand is Dominant.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:07 AM

BOBKNAPTOR

Thank you, CharlieBlue, for setting loonytoon "straight" about the recessive traits!

Now, my turn to rant.

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Two, I`m an avid hunter, and I have yet to see a single wild animal exhibit homosexual behavior. The gene might very well exist, but it is a recessive trait, and would generally only be shown in an animal with both gay parents, which is unlikely that two gay sheep of opposite sexes are gonna have a roll in the hay! Now with a captive population, and possible human tampering, it is much more likely to happen.

1) you're hunting them. Chances are, you're not going to see every aspect of their life. 2) all breeds of animal have instances of homosexuality. obviously, it's not the majority of the population, or there would no longer be a population, however, it DOES happen. 3) a friend of mine breeds birds. she has a gay couple. 2 male birds that have had plenty of chances to breed with females, and yet they only have sex with each other. She has done nothing to encourage this trait (she's a breeder, so having a gay couple does not help her in any way!)

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: Third, one of the things that bothers me is that many people think they are gay because its "in". I have met quite a few people that come out of a bad relationship with a person of the opposite sex, and assume it is because they are a (usually) a man, so they pull the ol` switch-a-roo, and poof! There gay! But they are quite often just as miserable or more with another man/woman. Or they think they are gay because they mistake feelings of very deep friendship as love. They are quite similar feelings, at times.

1) Have YOU ever mistaken a feeling of deep friendship for love? that's ridiculous. If you can't tell when you're in love, YOU'RE NOT. 2) There is a whole spectrum of human sexuality, ranging from completely heterosexual to completely homosexual, with every flavor of bisexual in between. 3) saying that people are pretending to be gay because it is "in" is absolutely ridiculous. It's not that it's "in"... it's that because it is more socially acceptable to be gay, people no longer have to pretend to be something they are not. 4) It is asinine to say that someone "turns gay" because they had a bad relationship with a member of the opposite sex. That is just as intelligent as saying someone "turned straight" because they had a bad experience with someone of their same sex. "Gee, Johnny's best friend Kevin lied to him and hurt his feelings. That must be why he's been dating those girls!"

Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.

______________ We're here, we're queer, get used to it.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:36 PM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor: Being someone who has struggled with her own sexuality, I can tell you that hearing statements like the kind you have just made is incredibly disheartening. We've fought so hard to say that it's ok to be who we are, and it's sad to hear that people still feel like they have a right to try and discredit us. But guess what? It's only going to get more socially acceptable.

Unfortunately the open minded society is running into a heavy dose of reality. The "Gay Community" attacks on the Boyscouts have had a very negative effect. The Boy Scouts have a no gay rule, because they were deliberatly infiltrated and used as a front for child molesting by a gay child molesting gang.

Denial that child molestation is a often a homosexual act, is also problem. See the numbers of homosexual acts against children, compared to the number of heterosexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church.

Jeff Who tries to keep an open mind, but when I see good organizations like the Boy Scouts being attacked, it makes me very angry.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:09 PM

PERSEPHONE

Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.

:disappointed:

Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man. Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:08 PM

First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.

And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer. For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.

As for the social acceptability of being gay, I am speaking from personal expierences and observations, so I know what I am saying does happen. Twenty, or even ten, years ago if you were gay than you would keep a low profile, it existed, but it was not celebrated like it is now. Now people think being gay is perfectly acceptable and therefore think less about the reasons and the consequences before they "come out". If you are undeniably gay, fine, be gay. But many people today consider there sexual orientation about like they do there choice of cars. "Oh, don`t like chevys anymore, I think I`ll try a ford". Sexuality is becoming to casual, and is not regarded as it should be. This does not just apply to gays, I think it is a fault with much of todays society.

And I consider it interesting that nobody has gotten upset about tinytimms comments, when I made almost the exact same comments and you jumped all over me. Like him, I have seen to much hypocrisey coming from the gay community.

P.S. please don`t get worked up over my spelling or use it to say I`m to stupid to continue the argument, I have better things to do than maintain perfect english on a BB.

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Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:07 PM

PANIC

Why exactly do you feel that there is a difference between the mating behavior of animals in the wild as opposed to captivity? In reality, scientists who study this issue believe that there may be real survival benefits to having some percentage of a species being gay. For instance, gay males in a hunter-gatherer society would represent an additional contribution in terms of labor, survival, defence, etc., without increasing the group burden by the resource needs of their offspring. Since humans are social animals who clearly benefit from cooperation, sharing, and altruism, a strict "surival of those who have the most offspring" approach is invalid.

The mechanism by which "gayness" would be perpetuated goes something like this: imagine you are a hunter-gatherer and you have a gay relative, say a brother or cousin. You share some genetic material with this person (about 1/4 for your sibling), and his extra contributions to your family group in terms of labor and defence give your genes a survival advantage (some of which may include genes which determine sexual orientation). This survival advantage promotes the propagation of the genes for "gayness" down through the generations to the exclusion of others lacking the gene. Remember that we have two copies of every gene, only one of which is typically expressed.

Similar theories are advanced to explain the common occurance of traits such altruism and self-sacrifice (on behalf of non-immediate family members) which have no "obvious" survival advantage.

One last point. Argument by induction is not compelling. Your experience with the observation of animals while hunting is NOT generalizable to animals in general. Its analogous to "I have seen thousands of geese, which have all been white. Therefore there is no such thing as a black goose." Deductive reason has been the cornerstone of rational, scientific thought since the Enlightenment. Inductive reasoning is useful for generating a hypothesis, but its has absolutely NO ability to prove cause and effect or exclude phenomena not observed.

~Panic

Quote:
Originally posted by loonytoon: First, I was trying to be polite, I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Second, bobknaptor, you obviosly have no idea what hunting an animal really entails. My method of hunting is an excellent example, I hunt in the swamps, so I find a likely looking pond and wait. Last time I went, I did not get a moose, however I did spend a week observing varios moose behaviors about 10-12 hours a day. I saw a mother defending her calf, I saw a submissive bull trying to court a cow, and get run off by a larger bull(a large bull moose grunting 40 feet away is an interesting sight,loud to!) and I have never seen a homosexual behavior in a WILD animal.

And I do have a basic understanding of genetic traits, but I know that 10% of any given population is not going to be gay given a dynamic and changing breeding pool as in the wild, but in captivety, it is much more likely as the recessive genes will be kept alive much longer. For example, the gay birds mentioned will not pass on there recessive genes as they will not mate with a female. And breeders negate natural selection, as they wish to propagate traits that they want, not what the birds look for in determining a mate in the wild.

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Wednesday, November 06, 2002 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by esme: Oh Jayne's Girl- you slay me. Really though, nothing pisses me off more that a post that says "who cares?". (see below) We do, buddy and if you don't then stop reading! Also- the great thing about JW is that anything is possible- and sorry, but mutual hair dressing is totally erotic, be it man-man, man-woman, woman-woman, woman-man....

Thanks! Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Persephone: Jeez, why did this topic have to go and get all serious. You don't see this happening at Television Without Pity's HoYay thread. Jaynesgirlfriend, looks like ya might have to keep it there, some people here obviously have no sense of humor.

:disappointed:

It started the second HoYay was even mentioned and not actually in this thread. But I will not be deterred. I like it here despite the talk of recessive traits and gay sheep, which I'm completely ignoring in favor of the more fun discussion that's going on here, such as "How gay is Simon?" Answer, unbelievably gay and totally in love with Mal, sorry Kaylee. In fact the nay-saying just makes me more determined. The slash might not be as obvious on Firefly as it is on say Smallville, but its there. Oh yes, it is there.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:05 AM

CHARLIEBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend: Okay, was it just me or were there a couple of pictures of women on the screen when Inara was reviewing perspective clients? There's been speculation that Companion's service both sexes, but this would be nice proof. And add just a little more gayness to the hair scene, which we know I'm all for.

If you added a little more gayness to that scene, they couldn't show it on network TV. That scene was right up there with Lex and Clark.

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Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:41 AM

LJSQUARED

Here's a cap of Inara's screen, at least two of the pics look like woman to me and does anyone else think the bottom left one looks like Mal?

Firefly@Trekvideo.com http://www.trekvideo.com/firefly

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Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:04 AM