The Inspiration For Firefly, Airing On Starz Family of Channels... by zoid

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The Inspiration For Firefly, Airing On Starz Family of Channels...

POSTED BY: ZOID
UPDATED: Friday, October 13, 2006 05:04
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Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:19 AM

Hey, folks. I looked at the thread list and didn't see anything obvious on this subject, but if this is redundant, simply disregard the thread...

I read somewhere that Joss got the idea for Firefly after watching Ang Lee's "Ride With The Devil", about a group of Confederate sympathizers-turned-guerilla warriors, fighting on the fringes of the Civil War in Missouri and Kansas. So, I thought y'all might like to know that Lee's "...Devil" is in rotation for the month of October on the Starz family of channels, including their Western movie channels.

I'd seen the movie before Firefly came out and found it mildly interesting. Though an entertaining movie viewing experience, it certainly didn't put me in mind of, 'What would this look like projected into the future as as a science fiction vehicle?' That's where Joss' genius comes into play: That he not only had that inspiration leap into his imagination, but that he was able to relate it to current-day viewers' concerns about over-reaching governments.

Now, re-watching the film, I am struck by the similarities between Lee's visualization of this particular past and the characters' mindsets as they inhabit that past... and those of Joss' visualization of the Firefly 'verse and his characters' mindsets. Ang's character Jacob Roedel (Tobey 'Spider Man' Maguire) and Whedon's Malcolm Reynolds, in particular, are fascinatingly parallel, especially since we know virtually nothing of Mal's pre-war past. All we know is that when the war began, Mal was idealistic and fervent; by the war's end, he was cynical and an unbeliever in 'right always triumphs over wrong'. He has come to the conclusion that there is no God, or that if there is, He doesn't care what happens to humans.

...A credo echoed by Roedel's sentiment, "It ain't right, and it ain't wrong. Just is." ...And of course, it should be noted that Roedel gets a steadfast companion during his wartime travails, a free black man fighting on the side of the Confederacy, named Daniel Holt (Jeffrey Wright). Now, who's that sound like?

So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you squint your eyes just right, you can watch "Ride With The Devil" and picture it as sort of a prequel to Firefly... It's a bloody great movie, viewed that way.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
In my end quote, below, you'll find an extended citation from "...Devil", the dialogue of which might resonate a bit with us Browncoats...
_________________________________________________

[Camping out, Jack Bull Chiles and Jake Roedel discuss Jake's finger, which was shot off in a skirmish.]
...
Jake: "No. It was a fine finger and I'd rather have it still, but it was took from me and it's been et by chickens for sure. And I say, what is the good side to this amputation? And there is one..."

Jack Bull Chiles: "Name it, Jake."

Jake: "Well, you say one day some Federals catch up to me in a thicket. They would riddle me and hang me and no Southern man would find me for weeks or months and when they did, I'd be bad meat pretty well rotted to a glob."

Jack Bull Chiles: "That's scientifically accurate, I'm afraid. I've seen it."

Jake: "I'd be a mysterious gob of rot. And people would say, 'Who was that?' Then surely someone would look up and say, 'Why it's nubbin-fingered Jake Roedel.' Then you could go and tell my father that I was clearly murdered and he wouldn't be tortured by uncertain wonders."

Jack Bull Chiles: "And that's the good of it?"

Jake: "Yes sir, that's the good."

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:07 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Zoid,

I had not ever read that Joss knew of this movie and that it was an inspiration for Firefly, but I'm not surprised and I can say I have seen the parallels and I'm not alone, I'm sure that Chindi and I have discussed the similarities.

I love this movie and own it and get it out as an old friend upon occasion and watch it. I consider it one of Tobey Maguire's best performances.
As a person who lives in the "southern" Midwest I can appreciate the lines drawn during those times and love the way those lines are overcome in the story of the white man and black man who start as supposed non-equals and end as friends who genuinely love and respect each other.

"It ain't right, and it ain't wrong. Just is." and the line from our beloved show.."The way it is is the way it is." are very similar to me. And as you say the idea of the loss of conviction and belief on behalf of the protagonists in both the movie and our show are very similar.

I would even venture to say that the language used and our much used and loved Joss-speak are similar.

I think any Browncoat watching this movie would find themselves with a bit of a home feeling response to it. The folks in this movie and the folks in our show move thru life doing the best that they can with the moments and challenges that come their way.

As an aside, the mill part of the town in the first of the movie where Jacob Roedel and his father live is an actual old farmstead in Northern Missouri which opens to the public once a year and has a homespun festival. Lots of arts and crafts and good food and re-enactments. Also a tour of the entire property where they still make their own wine and grow their own food. I've been and it's a lovely place and lovely time.

Also, I live where Jesse James and his wild and crazy band came from...a "group of Confederate sympathizers-turned-guerrilla warriors, fighting on the fringes of the Civil War in Missouri and Kansas" sure describes them to a T and the only thing I'd add would be thieving after the word fighting. These were the men and their families who tried to live after the war the best way they could. Some were good men, and some were bad men. They were just making their way the best way they knew how. Many of the folk who live where I live are still making their way the best way they know how to.

Firefly feels like home to me, because it's about folk I know.

Thanks, Zoid.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal
Go to www.bigdamnthankyou.com and check it out!

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:27 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Zoid,

"Ride with the Devil" is a great movie. I caught it one rainy afternoon on cable a couple of years ago and found it to be compelling, well written, well acted, and well directed. It shows a side of the War Between the States, more specifically the conflict in Kansas & Missouri, that many people are not familiar with at all. I was dubious about Toby Maguire as the lead, but he showed his remarkable acting skill in this role.

When I watched it originally I was not aware that it had been in some part an inspiration to Joss for Firefly. I know that the book "Killer Angels" had been a heavy influence and have since read the book twice to look for comparisons. I will have to go back now and rewatch "Ride with the Devil" to look for the comparisons you have noted.

Keep Flyin'!

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:36 AM

CATHERA

I don't want to slam you but any good writer can take a story they see and turn it into their own.

Still Flying High

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:56 AM

ZOID

BrownCoat1 replied:

Quote:
...I know that the book "Killer Angels" had been a heavy influence and have since read the book twice to look for comparisons. I will have to go back now and rewatch "Ride with the Devil" to look for the comparisons you have noted.

Actually, you are 100% correct and I am... Well, much less correct than that. As it turns out, "...Devil" has no correlatable connection to Firefly. Any such connection is strictly a figment of my own (erroneous, fallible, Alzheimer's-ridden...) imagination.

Still, it's a good movie, and perhaps somewhat parallel to young Malcolm's experiences at the outset of the War of Independence on his home moon of Shadow. At least, I -- in my erroneous, fallible, Alzheimer's-ridden imagination -- repeat-viewed "...Devil" that way, and found the movie more enjoyable for the effort.

When I so publicly get egg on my face, I MAKE MAYONNAISE... And then enjoy a nice tongue-and-ego sandwich. Anybody got any cress (and maybe a pint or three of porter)?

Sheepishly,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:08 AM

ZOID

Cathera responded:

Quote:
I don't want to slam you but any good writer can take a story they see and turn it into their own.

I wouldn't know; I'm not a writer, let alone a good one. So, I don't particularly feel 'slammed'. But I was once a professional musician/performer. In that endeavor, taking something of someone else's and 'turning into your own' would be called 'derivative' at best, and more frequently 'copyright infringement'.

Lawyers -- like doctors and justices of the peace -- should be avoided at all costs...

Reminiscently,

zoid

P.S.
There are a limited number of themes in drama, as there are a limited number of notes in music. So, original storytelling or music is all about arrangement and voice, not discovering something altogether new. Is that what you meant?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:43 AM

ITHAS2BME

Well we can't all be right all the time... I have read the The Killer Angels but your post was exciting news to me, but alas. Even though you invented the connection, I'm actually pretty intrested in seeing this movie now.

With the lack of anything new from our 'verse lately, it doesn't seem like a bad pursuit to seak out other things Firefly that Browncoats might like. OK, now somebody else start a new post, I'm all typed out.

... I'm in.

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Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:17 AM

CATHERA

yes it is. So you did grasp my meaning.

Still Flying High

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Friday, October 13, 2006 1:06 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Actually, you are 100% correct and I am... Well, much less correct than that. As it turns out, "...Devil" has no correlatable connection to Firefly. Any such connection is strictly a figment of my own (erroneous, fallible, Alzheimer's-ridden...) imagination.

Still, it's a good movie, and perhaps somewhat parallel to young Malcolm's experiences at the outset of the War of Independence on his home moon of Shadow. At least, I -- in my erroneous, fallible, Alzheimer's-ridden imagination -- repeat-viewed "...Devil" that way, and found the movie more enjoyable for the effort.

When I so publicly get egg on my face, I MAKE MAYONNAISE... And then enjoy a nice tongue-and-ego sandwich. Anybody got any cress (and maybe a pint or three of porter)?

Zoid,

It was not my intention to discredit your claim, I thought perhaps you had read something about "...Devil" that I had not myself. When I read your post I thought back on the film and could see some similarities to our captain and thought I must watch it again to better grasp them.

I still think your citing some connections between Firefly and "...Devil" are valid and I encourage the community to watch the movie themselves. It is an enjoyable film, a seldom touched on piece of the history of the War Between the States, and I think many will see some of the captain in the main characters.

Respectfully,

Browncoat 1

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Friday, October 13, 2006 5:04 AM

ZOID

BrownCoat1 generously replied:

Quote:
It was not my intention to discredit your claim...

...As soon as you said (well, 'wrote'), "The Killer Angels", I remembered the title and thought to myself, "Oh, holy F*x! I've stuck my foot in it this time." And I'm glad you caught my error. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone, even unintentionally.

Still, the first thing I did was reverse the DVR to the opening credits, praying that "...Devil" was based on "...Angels"; but, no rescue. "...Devil" is based on the novel "Woe To Live On" by David Woodrell.

So, rather than just slink away mysteriously, leaving people to think I had a country to run and couldn't be bothered with reply posts vis-a-vis where in the aitch-ee-double-hockey-sticks did I hear that Firefly owed anything to "...Devil", I decided to do the uncommon thing and admit that I was wrong. Horribly wrong. Unconscionably wrong.

And you know what? It didn't hurt a bit to admit it. It hurt to find that I had misled people by being too sloppy/lazy to check a fact; for that I'm truly rueful...

The only thing I can't figure out is how I got it in my head that "...Devil" was "...Angels". One might surmise that there is something suggestive about the names, and that the themes of the movie and the book are at least similar in that they are both set in American Civil War. My addled recollection of Joss' interview has him saying that "...Angels" was about the people fighting on the fringes of the War, guerilla war fighters, the people history forgot. But I don't see how that's possibly accurate either, because "...Angels" is (reportedly) about the Battle of Gettysburg (I've not read it). So, that's pretty much where my mental trail of raven-pecked breadcrumbs ends, and frankly, I'm only thinking of those possible connections after the fact (of getting caught leg-before-wicket).

The inescapable conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, is that I was full of (fill in the blank) on this one. No excuses, and I'm sorry of it.

But... I will join you in recommending "Ride With The Devil" to other Browncoats. I feel that the story told in this movie may closely resemble the sort of governmental and socioeconomic issues Mal had to endure in the Pre-War period on Shadow, and provided him with the reason to join the Independents...

Thanks for responding so kindly.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Moderator(s)? Could y'all stick this thread in Troll Country or the bitbucket or something? I mean, it's based on a totally erroneous premise, and I don't want to start any rumors or myths. I'd delete it myself, but I'd feel strange/wrong deleting my own words and leaving the thoughts of others to stand strangely alone...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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