Serenity mixed review by dreamtrove

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serenity mixed review

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Saturday, October 22, 2005 06:21
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VIEWED: 1840
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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Okay, back from seeing Serenity a second time. It was much more mixed for me this time. I have some nitpincking to do, but also some accolades to award.

So here come my cheers and jeers. But first I want to say, of course it's a 10. It's flat out better than Matrix as a stand alone movie, and should be up there with bladerunner.

I hope you forgive if these are in the wrong order.

Simon gets river out. I liked this a lot. Simon was a little more badass than expected, true, but it was a sweet scene. My one qeustion is "When did Simon strip his sister naked?"

The Job. This was great. I have no problems with it.

The chase. this is a little goofy. Reavers should terrify me, but instead they're wily coyote. Also, when Jayne falls off the back, it's comical. I like Jayne, I should be fearing for his life, not laughing my ass off. The whole chase scene is pretty much a failure. Additionally, the angles are very stock, and there's nothing particularly happening on the mule/wagon. People are pretty much in place as if they were puppets. You know what would make Reaver's really scary? if they were outsmarting our guys and we only got away with luck, and maybe a little cheating.

The deal. This is the best scene that Joss has ever done in anything, Bar none. It's perfect. It's beautiful. It's easily one of the top ten scenes in the history of film. The highlight for me was the octopus thing.

Haven. This scene was too short. It strikes me as barely an introduction to Book for the non-fans. His stereotypical movie death later will elicit chuckles from the audience. Thus anything he says also is interpretted as comically cheesy.

Inara. I would've liked a signal that it was a trap, but it's not necessary. I thought this scene went well, no real issues. It wasn't amazingly brilliant, but it didn't suck.

Mr. Universe. Oh boy, this had problems. I like the character fine, in spite of the fact that he's presented as our character's major lifelong ally and we've never met him.

But the deconstruction of the message was just a piece of bad filmmaking. 1) It's a cliche. It's an extreme cliche. 2) It's horrible over-exposition. We all got that it's a subliminal message. If there's a monkey in the audience who didn't get that, they did when Mr. Universe says "It's a subliminal message." He can do that. But to go on in a a bogus "we've never actuall seen a computer before" hollywood way, it's like miami vice. 3)It's a big "Nah!" This is in no way what would really happen. First of all, tracing a signal to it's originator is hard work, very hard, and long before you had that you would know what it was. You'd say "Whoever is broadcasting this, whatever they want," not "It's top secret high government" This is hollywood jibber jabber. I could go on and on about how bad this was. It's like the scene in the Matrix where Fishburne compares human beings to Duracell, thus making the entire movie premise take a sharp turn off the cliff of scientific plausibility.

River finds Miranda. This was great. I like the not knowing if she's a psycho looney or not. No complaints.

Dead Haven. This is also nice, the only thing is the cliche death of Book. He'd been grating for a while with his self importance for me, so I didn't mind seeing him get it, but the death has problems. We need a reason he's still alive. We know he's a former operative or so, even the first time movie goers know that by now, so sure he's tough, maybe he's too tough. 1. How did they get him? 2. How'd he survive once they got him? 3. Last words guy is too cliched. Maybe if Simon got there but could save Book, but he couldn't talk, or went into a coma and died an hour later, it would all seem like a real death, and not a cartoon satire of a death. Non-fans thought it was funny. PCD should never be funny.

Reavers. I liked this spookyness. It's sufficiently creepy.

Miranda. Oh this has flaws. It is, sadly, as someone posted earlier, a plothole you can drive a truck through. This is so huge I have to stop and enumerate:

1) PAX something hydrochloride. It's just a chemical. This doesn't jibe. You can't create this kind of permanent change with a chemical toxin. Not and have it still be here 10 years later.

2) Not enough reavers. .1% doesn't make enough reavers. Very few are going to survive and pilot space ships out of here.

3) And this is an "Oh Boy." We see the woman sending a signal from a room much like the one we're in. It could be this one except that she isn't here and eaten. But then no one is. Oh yeah. No one is. It takes three days for a human who takes no action to die. These withered people we see are everywhere, but eaten people are nowhere. Yet there are cannibals everywhere? No now, but at the time of the video. We are told it, and then it's confirmed. Cannibals everywhere. Yet they don't touch the people who are just lying there. They wait around to eat some random reporter. Huh?

4) Space battle. This is pretty awesome and totally chaotic. No problems. I would like to see Reavers actually use their space claws and stuff, not just ram everyone. But overall fun.

5. Crash landing. A little suspension of disbelief, sad to see wash die, but agree with the decision, and it's an awesome random battle death. But spears? Everyone said these are spears. I agree if that's what happened, that's absurd. I thought they were docking clamps, or maybe harpoons, either would make some sense. But spears, even if possible would lack a point. Pirate space vessels have an obvious use for harpoons.

River slays. This is beautiful. I love it. They should show that every christmas.

Operative battles Mal. This brings back Mr. Universe, which was riddled with holes. The whole base doesn't work, his power comes from nowhere. It's all at the very least a "Huh?" The battle with the Operative is contrived, and Mal's winning is almost contrived, but beliveable.

But the major downside here is the intercutting. This didn't work. There were way too many cuts back and forth between River/Reavers and the Operative/Mal. The editting serves to make both scenes carry very little punch, where they should carry a great deal more. Even if these have to happen at the exact same time, reducing the number of cuts would greatly increase our emotional stakes. The viewer doesn't get worked up over a 30 second clip.

Epilogue. The gravestones were cheesy. This is a primative living on the edge world. Sure this is technologically possible, but shallow and decadent. Besides, these people can barely afford to bury their dead. If you wanted the impact of videos of the characters, here's something that might have worked better. Add a scene to the Haven scene, that needed something extra, where Book and Wash and some other characters are making a video recording, for some reason pertinant to our story. Then our characters could watch it at the end. Instead we had a scene very reminiscent of Dungeons and Dragons the movie, and if that ever happens to you, you've made a mistake somewhere.

River flying is good, I didn't like that she could specifically tell exactly what Mal was going to say. This is the first time that's ever happened, and it's stock, cliche and incredibly boring. It threatens to kill the character entirely as an interesting story device. Before she hears random things that people want not to be heard, this is interesting. The other is omniscience, and it's the films final near fatal flaw.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 11:21 AM

UMSUMAYYAH

1. I wondered about the body (of the investigator) too. Then I thought about them coming into Reaver space and hearing the transmissions of all the people screaming. Stands to reason that they kill/torture some people right away, but take others back to their ship to torture/eat later.
(But you'd think there would be a little blood spattered here and there)
2. No eaten/tortured on Miranda: Reavers like people alive and kicking when they get 'em.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:36 PM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Miranda. Oh this has flaws. It is, sadly, as someone posted earlier, a plothole you can drive a truck through. This is so huge I have to stop and enumerate:

2) Not enough reavers. .1% doesn't make enough reavers. Very few are going to survive and pilot space ships out of here.

On just their little flight to find the beacon, something is said about passing numerous large settlements--not little western-y towns, mind you, large cities. So it's an entire planet, and it has many large-size cities. So let's go on the extreme low side and say there are only about 100 million people (not that many--that's only about a third of the U.S. population, or about the size of ten LA's). At the rate of 1 in 1000 that would make 100,000 Reavers. Say the average Reaver ship takes a crew of 100 (which seems high, given Serenity's original 6-man crew) that makes for one thousand Reaver ships. If the population of Miranda were 300,000,000 (about the size of the U.S.), and their ships took a crew of 25 (both in the range of possibility, I think), there'd be 12,000 Reaver ships floatin' around the verse! This supposed plot hole just doesn't hold water for me.

Quote:

3) And this is an "Oh Boy." We see the woman sending a signal from a room much like the one we're in. It could be this one except that she isn't here and eaten.

So...the fact that the room that the woman is in looks like the one that the heroes are in means that they must be the same room. Come now. You're begging the question, here. We see precious little of the room where the woman is--certainly not enough to say that it was one-and-the-same room as the ones the heroes are in. It doesn't follow from necessity that the room they're in is the same as the one in the video, simply because they look similar. It would take some more convincing arguments than just "looks like it".

But let's say we take for granted they are. After all, the recording equipment is there, and the "tape" is there, it seems to be part of a crashed spaceship, and there is the aforementioned similarity. So for the sake of argument, they're one and the same room. Why no blood? Perhaps the Reavers didn't commence to eating on her there. Perhaps they just ravaged her a couple of times (horrible and frightening and scream-inducing, but not the sort of thing to produce blood by the buckets-full) and then took her somewhere else to consume at their leisure. Maybe the just beat on her with fists and feet for a spell (again, none-too-messy). There's all manner of reasons why there wouldn't be blood and or bodies in that room, even if it's one-and-the-same room as the heroes are in (and ain't convinced it is).

Also, "not here and not eaten" thing is just...poor. Reavers use people as sport, not just food. Let's not forget that they rape and eat, and sew. And not always in that order. Maybe they don't always just commence to eating right away. Maybe they take back to the ship to enjoy for later. It's not any more implausible an assertion than the notion that they would just chow down where-so-ever they find the victim.

Quote:

But then no one is. Oh yeah. No one is. It takes three days for a human who takes no action to die. These withered people we see are everywhere, but eaten people are nowhere. Yet there are cannibals everywhere? Not now, but at the time of the video. We are told it, and then it's confirmed. Cannibals everywhere. Yet they don't touch the people who are just lying there. They wait around to eat some random reporter. Huh?

Two things on this.

First, you're assuming that the transformation took place instantaneously ("psycho ON!") rather than over a period of time. Perhaps the people who eventually became Reavers watched their friends and family just lay down and die, and they couldn't do anything about it. That just might be a little push toward insanity. Perhaps as the people got more and more lethargic, the proto-Reavers became more and more angry. And just when the folk died, the proto-Reavers snapped. And with no live victims to be had, they packed up and took to the black. Sure, we're never told that's how it happened, but neither are we told that it happened the way you seem to think it did. Again, it's question-begging to simply start with the assertion that the proto-Reavers were at some point co-existent with the lay-down-and-die Mirandans. To buy that, I'd need a more convincing argument.

As for waiting around for the reporter--well, if you had a hankering for a living being to torture, how interested would you really be in a bunch of dead ones. I think the Reavers enjoy the pain and horror of their victims every bit as much as they do the full belly and sexual gratification. We see as much when Mal shoots the man from the heist--the Reavers just drop him. Not interested in a dead body thanks. But a real, live "reporter" whose terror I can see as I do all manner of unseemly things to her? Yeah, that I can see. So why wouldn't they wait for a live victim?

It seems to me that there's a suspension of disbelief problem here. Now, I know that some things are just too damned big too ignore. But most of these just seem nit-picky to me. Someone said it better in another thread: the 'verse was static for three years, then all of the sudden comes to life again. Some people seem to have reacted negatively to some of the things that have changed over the months between OiS and Serenity. But to misquote Heraclitus (via Aristotle), "you can't step into the same river twice".

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:55 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Add a scene to the Haven scene, that needed something extra, where Book and Wash and some other characters are making a video recording, for some reason pertinant to our story. Then our characters could watch it at the end.

That is exactly the kind of scene we would have gotten in the show. Oh, but the "mass audience" has the attention span of a flea, so we have to "make changes."

Quote:
Instead we had a scene very reminiscent of Dungeons and Dragons the movie, and if that ever happens to you, you've made a mistake somewhere.

Owwwwuch! You are sooo right! And again, what was up with the gorram holographic greeting card crap? Who did not cringe at that? And not one of the survivors has a thing to say??? The prostitute in Heart of Gold got a better funeral! This is based on one of the best written shows ever aired, right?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:16 PM

SIMONWHO

I much preferred the funeral scene in the rough cut. It was longer for a start, had a wonderful long shot of Zoe walking along with her flame and then went into a very cathartic firework display from the rocket that got lit. Then we went into all the repair stuff.

But that video recording idea would be a bit of a lift from Angel, no?

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:40 PM

REXJAYNE

I think you're not letting yourself enjoy it. I realize that sometimes when there are obvious plot holes it's hard, but they're not as bad as you make them out to be.

The Reavers for example.. why would there be bodies?
other people have made good points that they probably took some time to develop, they didn't just change into Reavers in one second, but also, they're known for eating their victims, making clothes of their skins, and tying their bones to their ships. Exactly how much of the body does this leave behind?

Not enough Reavers? I was under the impression that new Reavers were occasionally born after having witnessed a Reaver attack. (i.e. Bushwacked)Maybe that one episode isn't enough to suggest they were reproducing in this manner, but it seems likely to me that if they purposely left a survivor and made him watch this time, there's no reason why they wouldn't do it again.

I can;t really argue with your technical points, not knowing much about signal tracing, I can just say that Mr. Universe worked for me, as did pretty much everything else. Maybe I was just so glad to see them all again I was willing to overlook anything.. or at least a little cheesiness here and there.

-----------

Inara: "As with most things, it seems, the trick is to give Jayne a heavy stick and stand back"

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:41 PM

DREAMTROVE

Rough cut? What's a rought cut? Is there an alternate version of Serenity out there?

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:47 PM

REXJAYNE

The rough cut is the version Joss showed in special sneek peaks before the official version came out. I would do anything to see it, but I don't live anywhere near the places he showed it.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

Casual,

One of the jobs of the filmmaker is to convince the view that the illusion is real. It's not the job of the viewer to make excuses for the filmmaker. I think this film is awesome, overall. My favorite movie is Bladerunner, but if you want me to tear into that film, I'd be happy to. A perfect film would be something like "Gladiator." Perfect in that it takes no chances, and so takes no falls. Also Boring. Gladiators is maybe an 8 for me, but that's all filmmaking merit based. If it were on, I probably wouldn't watch it again.

That said:

1. We're given the planet's population, 30 million. There are (err. were) many large cities in Iraq, some a great deal larger than what we see, and Iraq has a total population is only 23 million. There's a fallacy in using America as a judge. American is huge. It's enourmously enormous. A planet is bigger sure. But a planet could also be much smaller than the Earth, by several orders of magnitude when you count surface area, or it could be just as much larger. But also, there's what % is land and what % of land is settled. Anyway, it's a given figure.

2. It doesn't have to be the same location, my point is reavers would be everywhere, and yet there is no sign anywhere that they were ever anywhere. The argument UMSUMAYYAH posted is more sound, but it still doesn't satisfy me. Reavers aren't fastidious. Some sign that they had been here and wrought havoc and destruction would remain.

3. I'm not assuming it's instant on, I posted on a different thread I thought it took months. It's possible that you're right that reaverization takes longer than pax lazy death. I gather that pax lazy death takes months, you get more and more lethargic, and three days after you stop you die. But again, it's not my job to convince you that it's a flaw. It's the filmmaker's job to convince me that it's not. Just a small reference to make me see that reaverization takes longer. Like "Small segments of society continue to run for almost a year, but then those people people go nuts"

4. Just generally, I think the perfectly clean world is set up for the shock of pax lazy death. Which is a twist. Reavers might look like war. But it's a major problem. Reavers disappearing without a trace isn't like Soviet spies disappearing without a trace. It's like pack of rabid wolves disappearing without a trace. It's just not going to happen.

5. If you think my complaints sound nitpicky, maybe you missed my opening where I said:

Quote:

I have some nitpincking to do.

But these are all minor story weaknesses that hurt the film. The trend that I noticed particularly was: When all of my friends who I begged to go to Serenity who were numberous, the worst reaction came from girls who were not regular firefly watchers. From the nitwits to the grad students they all reacted more or less the same: "It was cheesy and inconsistant."

These things don't really bug me that much, I'd rather have an awesome movie with minor flaws than a perfect film that was utterly uninteresting. But they do hurt the film.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:12 PM

DREAMTROVE

I be aiming to nitpick here. Please no one take this as "Serenity Sucked" as someone posted. Nitpicks are constructive criticism for Joss and Co. should they be paying any attention. It's more useful to them then a thousand apologists.

BTW I think it's the duty of any browncoat who does have access to that rough cut to pirate it and post it somewhere in a high res divx or something so we can download it.

:)

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Friday, October 21, 2005 9:12 PM

PIRATEJENNY

I hate to have to agree with you but I was dissapointed in Serenity the Movie, I just thought is Joss was going to make a movie he should have made a Movie, I don't know what in the hell I was watching but it wasn't Firefly.

Simion, wasn't acting very Simion like and I think that annoyed me the most, he was alot more agressive, and Book and Wash dying did not sit well with me, I kept asking why, although I did like the interacation between Zoey and Jayne. The operative guy just seemed like they were trying to do an immitation of Early.

I thought the Reavers should have been more chilling and scary, and the whole thing with the Reavers seem to be lacking something, I had always suspected that the Alliance had something to do with the Reavers..but everything just seem to be rushed

Besides all that, I did enjoy the moveie , and I realized that Joss made this Movie for the fans more than anything firefly was left unfinished and I think he wanted to bring some closure to it, and he did that for himself and the fans, most of all I just loved seeing all my beloved charactors back doing what they do. I just wish Firefly could have continued as a series.

I'm still pissed that it was cancelled , but what can you exspect from a network like Fox

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:44 AM

CAUSAL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
These things don't really bug me that much, I'd rather have an awesome movie with minor flaws than a perfect film that was utterly uninteresting. But they do hurt the film.

That's the beautiful thing about living in a free country--we get to disagree. It would pointless to argue my original points any further, cause they're made now. One thing I do have to say is that I' extremely sad about the division that is taking place in the fandom between Firefly fans and Firefly+Serenity fans. It grieves me that we can't be united in our support of the 'verse anymore.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 6:04 AM

DREAMTROVE

Don't worry Jen, you don't have to agree with me, I wasn't disappointed, I was just nitpicking.

I think people are being way too roug on Fox, who, as I've pointed out before, has produced Everything Joss has ever done. I know this because at the end of ever ep of every Joss show, regardless of where it aired, it says "Fox Television" just after it says "Mutant Enemy."

I think that we should take it the way Joss does, which is an asshole AT Fox, is responsible.

Over all, it was about as awesome as could be hope. If there could be one more thing I would have liked the movie to have that it didn't, I agree it would be more up close and personal with the Reavers, and more scary reavers. Zombies aren't nearly as scary as an enemy who can outwit you. All that reavers need is a little River aptitude. It's not to say to make them "brains" a chark or a croc can outwit you simply because it's a more experienced predator, neither one is remotely smart on a global scale.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 6:21 AM

DREAMTROVE

Casual, I think there is a point, because Joss and company may see this stuff.

In a way, I fear that idea. I would hate to think that the degree of upset here about Wash's death would cause Joss to be less likely to kill off characters in the future.

But little nitpicking is worth doing, because the little flaws kept non-fans from becoming fans.

That was my best correlation of observation. Non-fans were more pushed away by possible cheese, and thus weren't drawn in.

Also, suggestions of possible additions are worth making.

Objectively, I really enjoyed the Matrix, but even if there had never been a show called firefly, Serenity would still be a better film than the Matrix. But the Matrix does some clever film tricks.

1. There is way too much combat in the Matrix. I mean for a sci-fi flick, there's really no justification for a large number of fistfights. In a realistic story, the situation would just almost never come up. But it drew the audience in.

Serenity's combat scenes get cut short. The amount of combat is not exaggerated, but also, it's understated. Once we get the point "there's a combat here," then Joss leaves to show us something else. This may be efficient storytelling, but it's hardly going to draw anyone in.

Combat ups the stakes, it's exciting and it's going to change the emotional state of the viewer. Fear of Reaver, for example, if limited for those not already fans because in their first scene, the actual reaver combat is on screen for maybe 15 seconds, whereas the silly cartoon chase lasts 3 min or more.

A solid three minutes of reavers tearing people up might be overkill, but a minute and a half of wanton destructon would probably be far more effective.

Same goes for River's fight scene later on. Most people seem to agree it was the film's high point. But it get's intercut with a much less interesting - ie. more stock hollywood fare - fight scene between Mal and the Operative. I didn't hate that scene, but I've seen several hundred like it. It could have been straight out of Dr. No, or many other action films in the last 40 years.

The fight with river was something new. It was dances with axes.

More time on Miranda would have been excellent, it would have made the newbies feel motivated to kick the alliance's butt should it have one. But instead they were apathetic about it. They didn't have the Flan's hatred from the alliance.

Another one, more time with Book would have made them care if he died. We did, well I didn't, but my friend Will did, because we'd been with him for a while. The newbies laughed.

This is never good. People shouldn't laugh when a major character gets killed. But they didn't get a chance to know him, and he died in a stereotypical hollywood way, which might have been an homage to westerns, but the combination made the tragedy comical.

All of these are things which don't help bring in fans. To support the show it really needs a following of at least 2 million, and to be comfortably not cancelled, it would be nice to have that number up to about 5 million. I estimate it has about 1 million right now.

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