Shepherd Book and The Operative (spoliers) by MikeThatGuy

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Shepherd Book and The Operative (spoliers)

POSTED BY: MIKETHATGUY
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 09:29
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7661
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:53 AM

Hi all - I'm totally new here. We've enjoyed Firefly/Serenity for about 1-1/2 years now.

Took two movie viewings, and I didn't catch it, but my partner did:

Did anyone else notice that Shepherd Book and The Operative are essentially the same character? Except Book is years after whatever broke his faith in the Alliance, and The Operative just had that happen.

Explains a lot, doesn't it? Book's secrecy; the fact that he could shoot down that ship that destroyed Haven; his knowledge that the Alliance WOULD send an operative, and what kind of person that would be; and of course his medical treatment on that Alliance ship during the series.

Anyway - any thoughts on this?

m i k e

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:55 PM

JOEKER1999

I thimk you are exactly right. I never even really thought of it like that.
And, since we'll never get Book's story (unless there was a novel or something - HINT)

"We need to go the crappy town where I'm a hero."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:14 PM

BOOKSWORD

Thats the general feeling of the masses.

Both are driven and defined by faith and actions done for said faith.

Both aim for a better world but the Operative seeks to do so by any action and Book is more by words and guidence.

Sniff.

Missing my main man now.

Twenty years from now a older and sadder Operative will be wondering a far off space port, looking for a ride, bringing the word to those that need told.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:25 PM

BATOU

Completly with you on this one. Have you considered the posibility that Book could have become a Shepard because of some involvement on his part with creation of the Reavers? At which point Book and the Operative would totally mirror one another.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:20 PM

ICCLEDAMES

I wondered the very same thing - it makes sense...

Would have been nice to see that kind of story evolve over the course of the series.

Maybe the novel series will go into it...

Does anyone know if the novels are to be set pre- or post-serenity?

One of the last pages of the Visual Companion is an advert for the novelisation of the film but one of the captions on the page reads:

"And look for all-new original novels about the Serenity crew coming soon from Pocket Books".

No offence to KRAD but I hope these books are a bit thicker and a bit more meaty than the novelisation. Personally I would hate to write a novelisation of a film - can imagine it's very constrictive (though I thought the way the book was written captured the atmosphere of the so-called 'Verse perfectly).

As for the Operative himself, I thought he made an excellent villain but I was expecting the 'Hands of Blue' to make an appearance somewhere. Was expecting the security guards in the facility to be wearing them but I didn't see them...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:49 PM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND

The Hands of Blue guys are addressed (rather abruptly) in the three issue comic book story by Dark Horse Comics. The trade paperback for that should be coming out in a few weeks. It's basically a story that takes place between the end of the series and the beginning of the movie.

Someone on another thread spoke of the possiblity of Book and the Operative being the same character, via time travel. It was a fun theory but I don't think that would ever be the case. At least not literally. I think you got it right here: they're the same character symbolically. I think Book was indeed an Operative and basically by telling the Operative's story in the movie we're seeing Book's story. Pretty neat.

Mike
www.penickart.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:31 PM

BATOU

I think that the time travel theory might be a little out there for the Firefly'verse. It would seem more likely to me that the characters are reflections of one another.

I guess what makes this connection between the Operative and Book important is that it's like a piece of Book survived. To borrow a few lines from the show:

Simon: That's not much.
Mal: It's enough.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:59 PM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND

Right. Exactly.

And I've seen somebody else mention the idea that one day the Operative could en up being just like Book - even become a part of Mal's world. But someone else pointed out that last exchange between Mal and the Operative, where Mal says that if he sees him again he might kill him right then and there, to which the Operative says something like "You won't. There's nothing left to see."

Sounds like they'll never meet again, but I think if you engage in doublespeak and think symbolicly (the way Joss does constantly) the Operative's statements might mean something more akin to the idea that if they cross paths again he will be a different person. Mal wouldn't be looking at the same man. He might very well be looking at a man who is very much the person that Book is when we meet him for the first time in the pilot episode of the series.

Damn I love this stuff. I don't care if it's not going to happen and I know it, it's still so much fun to ponder.

"I don't wanna explode."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

That was the feeling I had before the movie came out - Shepherd Book had some kind of dark past that he didn't want to discuss, and his path of redemption and atonement for past actions led him to become a Shepherd. I *soooo* wanted to find out his real story. His medical treatment hinted that he was something special, and he just seemed to know too much about certain things that a Shepherd probably *shouldn't* know about. :) For me, that was what made him one of the most interesting and intriguing characters in the series. I know lots of people viewed his being killed off in the movie as kind of a "throwaway" death, but to me it potentially closed the Book (pardon the pun) on some really great storylines. Where'd he come from? What was he running from? Who was going to come looking for him, and why?

Upon seeing the movie, I was convinced that The Operative was indeed going to find himself on that same path, searching for atonement for his past deeds.
Joss seems pretty big on second chances and the ability of people to get a cosmic do-over to make them right. The Operative seemed to me to be an amalgam of the Hands of Blue guys and Jubal Early (the bounty hunter from the last episode of the series), but he was also BECOMING something more by the end of the film. There was a palpable feeling that he and Mal WILL meet again... and might even be fighting on the same side next time!

Mike

Grrrrr. Arrrgghh.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:46 AM

BOOKSWORD

Twenty years on in a dock far far away.

'My name is Shepherd Alister Pax..people call me Pax. Just looking for a ride to bring the word to those who need it.'

'Just bringing with me a few things, the good book, a box of fruits. Oh and this sword, mainly for decraotive reasons.'

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:45 AM

DANTE144

Agreed. I think the Operative character is a 'poetical echo' of book.

I think it would be cool to see him down the road, like the end of the second movie(God willing) or in the third movie. Maybe coming in and saving the crew.

That was an awesome character!

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:07 AM

WEICHI

I came away from my first viewing with the conclusion that Book was, in fact, an exoperative.

However, I also concluded, and still maintain after 4 viewings, that the Operative's words - "There is nothing left to see" are a prologue to his falling on his sword - "And there is no shame in this"

So, I would be surprised if we see him again.

See how I'm not punching him, I think I've grown!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:47 AM

JCLAST

The time travel theory was mine, but I like this echo/reflection theory better. It seems less far-fetched.

Select to view spoiler:

I just miss Book. Both my favorite characters got the axe, and I was looking for a way to hang on to one of them.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:00 AM

HIGHWAYMAN

How about a cross between the time travel and the echo ideas.

Maybe operatives are actually clones (or something similar). And The Operative is actually the same as Shepard Book, and will eventually become him. The original person that was cloned had the part of him that sees beyond the Alliance, so each Operaive is destined to 'see the light' as it were.

A bit far-fetched?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:14 AM

GERSHOM

I like the idea of a Shepherd named Pax but I somehow doubt he'd carry the katana still though perhaps, just perhaps, a sword handle with the blade shattered off? Wrapped in a sheet of white cloth from Miranda?

I somehow doubt 'Pax' would kill himself there and then, that being too honorable a death for him at that time - he carries too much shame, shame that has to be worked off in some way... In the service of others.

I think that's also why in 'Gas' Book was fearful of death... He knew he still had too much left undone and felt fear and guilt combined (as well as a little actual fear at the method of dying - suffication 'aint nice folks).

Also re the comments about Book being one of the Operatives involved with Miranda - sorry doesn't scan for me. If he knew about either Miranda or River he'd have felt an obligation to do something positive about it and he never actually did - instead he encouraged others to face up to evil and do something right...

"Every heist, he's gotta start yelling my name..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:40 AM

MIKETHATGUY

I agree - I doubt Shepherd book was involved with Miranda. But he sure did SOMETHING bad - and that's what led him to his current path.

God, please don't let there be any time travel in this universe. Amusing in the Star Trek universe, true, but also an easily used and kind of annoying plot device.

Also LOVE that there are no aliens in this 'verse. Well, except maybe that upside-down cow fetus in the series... :^)

m i k e

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:25 AM

BOOKSWORD

Quote:
Originally posted by Gershom:
I like the idea of a Shepherd named Pax but I somehow doubt he'd carry the katana still though perhaps, just perhaps, a sword handle with the blade shattered off? Wrapped in a sheet of white cloth from Miranda?

I somehow doubt 'Pax' would kill himself there and then, that being too honorable a death for him at that time - he carries too much shame, shame that has to be worked off in some way... In the service of others.

I think that's also why in 'Gas' Book was fearful of death... He knew he still had too much left undone and felt fear and guilt combined (as well as a little actual fear at the method of dying - suffication 'aint nice folks).

Also re the comments about Book being one of the Operatives involved with Miranda - sorry doesn't scan for me. If he knew about either Miranda or River he'd have felt an obligation to do something positive about it and he never actually did - instead he encouraged others to face up to evil and do something right...

"Every heist, he's gotta start yelling my name..."

I dont know, I suppose there is symbolisim in him carrying around a broken sword.

Deep and all.

Still the only thing better then a Preacher man with a dead eye and ready rifle is a Preacher man with a steady hand and sword at the ready.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:47 AM

DREAMTROVE

Yeah, I had this thought when I saw the movie. I agree.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:22 AM

THELURKER

Regarding the operative falling on his own sword:

I would agree that he'd fall on his own sword if he'd failed the Parliament. However, I think after seeing the recording from Miranda, he feels it was the Parliament that failed him, rather than the other way around. Instead of "making better worlds" they killed most of the population of a planet and turned the rest into bloodthirsty savages. So it rings true to me that he has become (or is in the process of becoming) another person, so "there is nothing left to see" of the old operative.

I like the "seeing Book's story through the operative" idea quite a bit.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:29 AM

JAYNEANDVERA

I agree that the operative has become a new man. Its indeed possible that Book was an operative at one point in his life, but its hard to be certain. What I think is fairly clear is that he was high up in the alliance before turning to religion. Whether he was an operative or not, he knew about them and many other aspects of the alliance. Hope at some point we learn more of the Book story.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE