GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

BDM Double Meanings

POSTED BY: DUCESTECUM
UPDATED: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:41
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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:18 AM

DUCESTECUM


I flat-out hijacked, stole, copy-pasted this from the Firefly Prospero site because I haven't seen anything like it here and want to know what my FFF.net buddies think. I hope I haven't done anything which will "get me in trouble"!

My apologies to Rameking Shaped Flan for stealing any thunder.

>>>>>1. On Haven during the scene where Mal is seeking guidance from Book, Mal says something like, "You really have to tell me how come you know so much about all this. (meaning the Alliance Parliament and Operatives)" Book says, "No, I don't." Mal lets it drop.

During that exchange, Mal was the fans asking for Book's story. Book was Joss reminding us that he doesn't *have* to tell us. If we're obnoxiously annoying, we may get him to break down. But I think this movie was Book's story as told through The Operative. Book may not have left his service over River Tam, but something caused him to realize he wasn't doing the right thing. After that, it doesn't take much story to explain how he found his path and is living a life of pennance.

2. On Miranda when they are heading back through Reaver territory to get to Mr. Universe, someone warns Mal that the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe and they'll see them coming. Mal says, "They won't see this coming."

I think that is Joss commenting on Wash's death scene. Naturally, I didn't pick that up the first time...'cause I didn't see Wash's death coming. But the second time around, I thought that was a key line.

3. The obvious one. After everyone is getting back to normal on Serenity, Mal asks Zoe about Serenity, but he only calls the boat "her" instead of referring to it by name. Zoe answers, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

This is a no brainer that they're talking about Zoe. I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

What else have you found?<<<<<

What are your thoughts on this?






And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:47 AM

KNIBBLET


What are your thoughts on this?

I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

SPOILER SPACE






I agree with your Book and Zoe observations but not the Wash death /Reaver attack.

Why don't I agree? That would mean that Joss looked at Wash's death as a sick joke on us.

He's never created throw away characters and he knows we love the people that he creates.

Miss Calendar's murder was a sick joke carried out by Angelus; however, it was not a sick joke on us. It was crucial to the story and not something you saw coming. It hurt like hell and Xander will ALWAYS hate Angel because of it.

Not a joke. Not a joke in either case.

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Scenes 1 and 3 are good, but I have a different opinion on your take for the 2nd one. Wash's death wasn't what I took as being what Mal was talking about ( but clearly no one did see that comin ) What I took out of that scene was the Reaver fleet that Mal would have hot on their heels as they headed toward Mr. Universe.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, October 3, 2005 2:56 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?

I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

SPOILER SPACE

I agree with your Book and Zoe observations but not the Wash death /Reaver attack.

Why don't I agree? That would mean that Joss looked at Wash's death as a sick joke on us.

He's never created throw away characters and he knows we love the people that he creates.

Miss Calendar's murder was a sick joke carried out by Angelus; however, it was not a sick joke on us. It was crucial to the story and not something you saw coming. It hurt like hell and Xander will ALWAYS hate Angel because of it.

Not a joke. Not a joke in either case.

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/



>>>>>I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.<<<<<

No need to get snippy Jayne. I told you where this came from and I didn't say I agreed with what was said. I merely asked for your thoughts about it.

And who is Miss Calender and Angelus? This is a Firefly/Serenity thread and some of us have never seen or care to see Buffy or Angel. So there!

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Monday, October 3, 2005 3:00 AM

FIREFLYFAN70


I agree with the first and 3rd idaes but not the second. When Mal said they won't see this coming I think he was referring to the Reaver fleet.

I do have another double meaning that I think has been overlooked tho. Early in the movie when they are getting ready for the heist at the trading station, Mal asks River if she understands her part in this. She relpys to him "Do you?"

To me that statement had more than one meaning. River asking Mal if he understood his part in what to come( the rest of the story) and also her role in the big picture, not just the heist.

I know I could be reading more into it but even Mals response of "this is what Ido implies something much deeper than just a simple robbery"


Just my 2 cents.

Fireflyfan70

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Monday, October 3, 2005 3:06 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Scenes 1 and 3 are good, but I have a different opinion on your take for the 2nd one. Wash's death wasn't what I took as being what Mal was talking about ( but clearly no one did see that comin ) What I took out of that scene was the Reaver fleet that Mal would have hot on their heels as they headed toward Mr. Universe.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



>>>>> your take <<<<< Please, I repeat again, these are not my ideas. I found them curious and thought they were an excellent topic for conversation.

Your thoughts however about the Reaver fleet, I am inclined to agree with but that also brings up the question How did Mal know the Alliance fleet would be waiting for him? I've seen it three times now but maybe I forgot or missed something.

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Monday, October 3, 2005 10:27 AM

LEXIGEEK


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
How did Mal know the Alliance fleet would be waiting for him? I've seen it three times now but maybe I forgot or missed something.



Zoe says something to him along the lines of "It's a fair bet the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe. They'll see this coming." It was an educated guess.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 11:31 AM

ODDNESS2HER


I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 11:59 AM

COZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.



Is it bad that I am so completely understanding this?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ldnemeth/images/blackjacksilver.GIF

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Monday, October 3, 2005 12:05 PM

JASONZZZ


Ok, but what *is* your take?



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Monday, October 3, 2005 12:28 PM

ODDNESS2HER


Quote:

Originally posted by cozen:
Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.



Is it bad that I am so completely understanding this?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ldnemeth/images/blackjacksilver.GIF



Ummm...no?

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Monday, October 3, 2005 1:41 PM

COZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by oddness2her:


Ummm...no?



Yeah, um, lol! Some context here: I'm Canadian, a citizen thereof. And from here, my perspective is that Mr. Bush and the administration that governs him is primarily geared to the betterment of his oily buddies. And that the large corporate media services serve that agenda, in large part by keeping us viewers of popular media entertained to the point of utter passivity. Kinda like a drug, all that mind-numbing enter-infotainment. A soporific infovirus. So, the parallel with the Pax(etc.) drug used on to still the aggressions on Miranda looks like it could have "a" connection. Could be coincidental, lotsa room for interpretation here.

Coulda simply been a plot device. Me, I'm chillin'.

Still, helluva movie, eh?



***
"You think somebody wouldn't go see somebody if they didn't want entertainment?"

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Monday, October 3, 2005 2:06 PM

DERANGEDMILK


I definitly agree with one and three as well as the political implications of the Pax. I'd also like to add that Wash's(god rest his fictional soul) last words "I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar." are very much like the common phrase used to express one's mortality in relation to time, "I am dust in the wind." Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended. I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.
-e

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Monday, October 3, 2005 5:45 PM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
No need to get snippy Jayne. I told you where this came from and I didn't say I agreed with what was said. I merely asked for your thoughts about it.


Wow! Sorry you couldn't read and understand the joking reply which was clearly under your nose. Take offense at nothing much?
Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:And who is Miss Calender and Angelus? This is a Firefly/Serenity thread and some of us have never seen or care to see Buffy or Angel. So there!

I do believe my point was that Joss doesn't create throw away characters and he doesn't take the 'death' of those characters lightly.
To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Monday, October 3, 2005 7:39 PM

WASURERA


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?
SPOILER SPACE









I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/]

I keep wondering if Book wasn't originally a council member, or a general. It'd be fitting if he were the General who was in charge of the Serenity Valley campaign, and it would explain why the Alliance soldiers seemed so vehement (as though they knew who he was) when he needed healing in 'Home'. Just an idea. :o

And with Wash--I agree, but I'm thinking that Whedon did it with a plot in mind for the next movie. I see River as being the craziest, most talented pilot ever in the history of the 'Verse. Of course, I could be on crack. :o

"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"

http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html

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Monday, October 3, 2005 7:53 PM

SLOWSMURF


The episode is 'Safe'. I'm sure you knew that, just saying.

Most of the ones seem plausible except that "You won't see this coming" I think book could've been virtually any high ranking official/spy/etc to get that kind of treatment.

That seems too far fetched.

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Monday, October 3, 2005 8:11 PM

RAKARR


To the original post...

Possibly all three of those are true. Possibly not.

The thing with Book I don't agree with you on. From what I remember Mal was telling Book that he should tell him how he knows so much abour crime some day. Book told him he didn't. I don't think that is Joss saying that he doesn't have to tell us his past. Who knows? Maybe Joss will come up with a prequal movie for Firefly/Serenity setting some time like during the Alliance vs. Indenpendence war perhaps wich we will learn more about each of the crew of Serenity of what they were up to before hand? That would be a good way to bring back Book and Wash for one more showing and could answer some questions. Well that's just a possibility. Really none of us (probably not even Joss) knows what will happen.

As for Zoe... Maybe they were actually talking about Zoe and how she feels, but maybe not. It's hard to say and there isn't proof.

As for Wash again it's hard to say for sure. Although I think I kinda agree with the Wash one cuz I sure as hell didn't see it coming. And really I didn't see it coming that they were gonna draw the Reavers to actually help them out. I thought what Mal was talking about was that they wouldn't see it coming that the truth would get out all over the 'Verse. I don't remember any one telling Mal or saying that the Alliance knew ab out Mr. Universe and that they found him.

"I am a leaf in the wind."

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Monday, October 3, 2005 8:15 PM

WASURERA


Quote:

Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
The episode is 'Safe'. I'm sure you knew that, just saying.
That seems too far fetched.




Nope, I couldn't remember it, and I leant out my DVD's to my brother; ^^;

I don't know... I just hope we get a chance to find out. ;_;

"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"
http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html

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Monday, October 3, 2005 8:25 PM

KSYRJAMA


Ok, I 100% agreed with the Zoe thing, not at all with Wash, but I had another idea for the Book scene. I actually (me overthinking now) thought that the Shepherd was saying that their pasts were no longer relevant. It's about the here and now. And the future.

That was my take anyway.
Karen

p.s. Joss is quite a brilliant man, don't you think?

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:56 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Wow! Sorry you couldn't read and understand the joking reply which was clearly under your nose. Take offense at nothing much?

I do believe my point was that Joss doesn't create throw away characters and he doesn't take the 'death' of those characters lightly.
To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."



WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.

>>>>To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."<<<<<

shudder


"And that's not incense."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:17 AM

KNIBBLET


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.


I'm going to try again. Don't ask me why. But I'm going to try again. See, this here part (in italics) is why is WASN'T an attack but was rather, a "JOKE".
Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.




http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 4:25 AM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

Yeah, but any more than that and she wouldn't be Zoe. She's holding it in, like she always did before she met Wash (I'm going by Tracey's comments in "The Message"). No, it's not particularly healthy, but it's true to Zoe.

Quote:

Originally posted by derangedmilk:
I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.

Sign me up. Wash's death made me feel sick, but that doesn't change the brilliance of the story. He saved his fellow travellers from a firey death, and died smiling. Seems to me it'd be unjust to not respect that.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:44 AM

ARAMINA


I definitely agree with the Zoe scene. I didn't spot it the first time round, but it's so telling. I think that both Mal and Zoe knew they were talking about Serenity and Zoe, but they didn't need to specify. Their relationship doesn't allow for big emotional scenes, but they have found other ways to be intimate as friends without hugs and tears.

Fireflyfan70 - I noticed River's "Do you" and I thought that was very telling right from the off that something big was going to happen (well, not that we didn't already know that what with this being a Big Damn Movie).

Another double meaning was River's (and aren't most of them from her? :) ) "They never lie down". She wasn't talking about Reavers never giving up with their prey etc, she was talking about Miranda and the fact that the men who turned into Reavers didn't lie down like the rest of the population.

When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:17 AM

CYBERSNARK


And of course there's Zoe's "prophecy" during the bank heist, repeated from the series, about the definition of a hero.

Pretty much sums up what happens to Mal. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 7:10 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


derangedmilk wrote:
I definitly agree with one and three as well as the political implications of the Pax.


I'd like to second that agreement.
Quote:


I'd also like to add that Wash's(god rest his fictional soul) last words "I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar." are very much like the common phrase used to express one's mortality in relation to time, "I am dust in the wind." Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended.


WOW ... i love that explaination. It's amazing. WOW. good job!
Quote:


I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.


I didn't like wash's death and still liked the movie. Well, i started a thread that basically what you're looking for. Check it out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372
Talk to ya there!!!

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 8:01 AM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Ducestecum's sig made me notice this:

Inara, in Serenity: "And that's not incense."

Inara, in Out of Gas: "I told you, that's incense!" ...Looks like Jayne was right to worry after all.

The idea about the Pax is intriguing. I like it. It fits with the Operative being your average religious fundamentalist nutcase until he can't avoid the proof of what the people he's working for end up creating in his name.

---------------------------------------------------
Early: Where'd she go?

Simon: I can't keep track of her when she's NOT incorporeally possessing a spaceship, don't look at me --

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 8:39 AM

ENGINEANGEL


another double meaning is OBVIOUSLY:
all those times Mr. Universe or his wife-bot say "You can't stop the siganl" that was such a dis to FOX!!!!

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 8:58 AM

DROCCULARI


Quote:

Originally posted by Cybersnark:
And of course there's Zoe's "prophecy" during the bank heist, repeated from the series, about the definition of a hero.

Pretty much sums up what happens to Mal. . .



I must be the densest person on the planet. I saw the BDM three times and never got that one. At least now I do. Thanks.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:54 AM

WHISPER


Another one I noticed was at the very beginning of the movie when Mal is talking to Simon and he says something like: "This job goes south, there may well not be another."

I didn't catch this until the third time I saw the movie, but I took it as statement for the movie in the real world. That if this movie doesn't do well, there may not be another one.

www.whispergraphics.net

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 9:29 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
another double meaning is OBVIOUSLY:
all those times Mr. Universe or his wife-bot say "You can't stop the siganl" that was such a dis to FOX!!!!

)



I agree


plus we have
Zoe ( Bank Job ) -
do you know what a hero is, its somebody that gets others killed
But she may have also been remembering Mal leading the Battle of Serenity


River ( End of movie ) -
Storm is getting worse
Next film is gonna be more gruesome, more Reavers, Blue-Sun, Jayne tuggery, Hands of Blue....you name it

but Mal replys they'll get through it

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:09 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I flat-out hijacked, stole, copy-pasted this from the Firefly Prospero site because I haven't seen anything like it here and want to know what my FFF.net buddies think. I hope I haven't done anything which will "get me in trouble"!

My apologies to Rameking Shaped Flan for stealing any thunder.


3. The obvious one. After everyone is getting back to normal on Serenity, Mal asks Zoe about Serenity, but he only calls the boat "her" instead of referring to it by name. Zoe answers, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

This is a no brainer that they're talking about Zoe. I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.






1. Maybe, maybe, but I agree with Ksyrjama, and think that's Book telling Mal that he's come out the other side of the terrible things he's seen and done and -Book- doesn't need to talk about it anymore, even if Mal thinks Book's 'gotta tell' him. For sure it speaks to the themes of belief and redemption threaded throughout the movie.

2. I don't think Joss is cruel or smart-aleckey to the fans in that way.

3. After Zoe says "she's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true" Mal says something like 'it's going to be rough' and Zoe replies something to the effect that 'it always is'. I think that's all we get from Zoe. She'd go cry in her bunk where nobody would see it.
I looked everywhere for the post I read (think it was an interview, but danged if I can find it). Joss, Nathan and Gina are discussing this scene before filming it, and Gina confirms with Joss that the reference is to her emotional stability.

Knibblet: I see stuff at the bottom of cereal boxes too, and when I pour the milk onto the cereal, it floats around and writes messages for me like a ouiji board. I feel for you that DucesTecum couldn't hear your humor, I did. I like it that this site is pretty calm and polite without much offense either intended or taken. I've noticed from plenty of job related email misses that it's pretty easy to misunderstand something written.

Derangedmilk: I wasn't too sure I could handle a second viewing, but my second viewing brought healing, better understanding, and lots more laughs.

And what about that bizzaro Fruity Oaty Bars commercial? It was pretty wierd all the way through (kind of a Zombie Power Puff Girls look) but the bit where the octopus comes out of the girl's tummy with the words "Not Mandatory" written on the screen behind her...eeek, eeeek, seriously creepy. Somebody want to break that one apart to the gooey center for us? There had to be some nightmare entendre in there.



"It's grotesque! And oh look, something in a jar." -Wash

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Monday, October 10, 2005 3:58 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


written by Liminalosity:
And what about that bizzaro Fruity Oaty Bars commercial? It was pretty wierd all the way through (kind of a Zombie Power Puff Girls look) but the bit where the octopus comes out of the girl's tummy with the words "Not Mandatory" written on the screen behind her...eeek, eeeek, seriously creepy. Somebody want to break that one apart to the gooey center for us? There had to be some nightmare entendre in there.


I don't know what that was about but i'm pretty sure that it had to do with something other than just the subliminal code/message embeded in it. Just a few fatcs to help someone to figure it out:
- the octapus came out from the women's bust.
- all of the characters looked like they were having seizures (they're eyes and pupils were all getting bigger, then smaller, then bigger, then smaller, ect.)
- the "Not Mandatory" thing mentioned above.
- at some point in the song, when the octapus's eyes went seizure-ish, the song mentions, "they will blow your mind."
-does anyone have the full lyrics to the fruity oaty bar song? that might help decipher this.

Quote:


Written by JaynezTown:
Zoe ( Bank Job ) -
do you know what a hero is, its somebody that gets others killed
But she may have also been remembering Mal leading the Battle of Serenity.


Maybe this one has a triple meaning!!!! LOL. But seriously though, she, in the movie, might have been making the guy put down his weapon so that no one would get killed, refering to Mal and the Battle of Serenity (thinking about it herself, because it sure would fit in!!!), and forshadowing how Mal's actions get Book and Wash killed. (our boy must be a hero)

Also, this probably doesn't have anything to do with the movie but that man in Jaynestown that jumped in front of Jayne when he was going to get shot died because everyone thought Jayne was a hero. Just a thought.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Monday, October 10, 2005 5:30 AM

THELURKER


I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:

On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 5:38 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


I think someone's searching a little too deep on these.

I did love River's "I swallowed a bug" line cos I had flashes to Objects in Space when she was being Serenity, cos Serenity had just effectively pulled a 'barn swallow' and swallowed a bug herself.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
http://pluraplofapocalypse.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Inara: "Do aliens live among us?"
Kaylee: "Yes. One of them's a doctor."

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Monday, October 10, 2005 6:20 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


No, TheLurker. You are not wrong. i saw that, too. But i don't think it has a double meaning. The first time she says"i'm all right" to Simon, she's refering to the throwing up. The second time she says it, she's refering to her mental state. She's not crazy anymore. Still phsycic but she can now control her own actions. (yeah!!!) They're two lines that means two different things.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Monday, October 10, 2005 7:09 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
Quote:


TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


No, TheLurker. You are not wrong. i saw that, too. But i don't think it has a double meaning. The first time she says"i'm all right" to Simon, she's refering to the throwing up. The second time she says it, she's refering to her mental state. She's not crazy anymore. Still phsycic but she can now control her own actions. (yeah!!!) They're two lines that means two different things.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)



Yeah, I saw this one too. With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

"They weren't cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see sky and they remember what they are." -River

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Monday, October 10, 2005 7:20 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.


LOL x 3. SOOOOOO TRUE. happens in everything he does.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Monday, October 10, 2005 9:06 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
Quote:


written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.


LOL x 3. SOOOOOO TRUE. happens in everything he does.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)



One of these days when things cool down a bit I'm going to start a post asking the love-it-all fans if anyone can mesh "Shiny" for me between the 3 shows. Where it started, on which episodes it appeared in all 3 shows in the same week. You know, serious raving mad fan stuff. Wait a minute, would it have been raving mad to notice that Monet painted haystacks in all kinds of light? I don't -think- so!

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." -River

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Monday, October 10, 2005 9:41 AM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


Can't believe no one's mentioned Mal's speech to River at the very end..."Love keeps her in the air when she should fall down; tells you when she's sick 'fore she keels", etc (prolly missing some stuff, but sue me--only seen it 4 times, and that's not enough to memorize significant chunks of dialogue). Anyway, 2nd time in the theater, I got to thinking that what Mal's talking about could just as well be Joss talking about the Firefly/Serenity 'verse. Like Mal, he's had things taken from him, but he kept fighting and eventually pulled out a bit of a win (the ship Serenity in Mal's case, the movie Serenity in Joss' case). It seems to obvious that this is Joss talking about his love of the 'verse. To me.



_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.


P.S. I'm on your side, Kniblet.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 10:49 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Uh huh inevbetrayal, I think that one's in there too. Plus I think that Mal's had a big fat epiphany in the plotline, and Mal/Joss is saying that you have to let your heart be that big and that wide open
(that you can love the ship as much as any of the rest of your peeps) in order to be like a leaf in the wind (ok, Wash said it, but it's thematic), and that he and River have both come through to the other side(s) of their personal hells and are finally capable of loving that much. Yup, and then River says something about the storm's getting worse (meaning the Alliance might blow them out of the sky, or whatever) and he says, sumpin' sumpin' yeah, but were almost through it, meaning they're almost healed and have the heart to get through anything life can throw at them. I'm just sayin', this shit is deep as the ocean.

What would you call a thing like Pandora's box, except that when you open it instead of suffering and pain, all these great levels of story come flying out. And he's almost never obvoius or cheesy about it either. Mis-ter Fabulous! Wonder if people will be translating Joss stories into Chinglaise in 500 years. Whaddya think?

Grrrr. Arrrgh

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Monday, October 10, 2005 11:00 AM

LIMINALOSITY


wooops, sorry, I meant to include this for inevitablebetrayal, cuz I wrote it down when I found it posted last week. I don't have the script yet, but this seemed pretty close...
'Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. It makes her a home.'

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Monday, October 10, 2005 12:31 PM

SICKDUDE


Completely agree with the theories on Zoe's "tore up" line, her "definition of hero", and River's "they don't lie down". As to the original thread's number two (gee, that sounds bad), "they won't see this coming". I thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". Cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

As to number one, Book's statement that he doesn't need to know, I completely agree. Joss is saying the Book backstory will never get told, and isn't crucial to the story. However, here's something that didn't occur to me until the last screening: the element of re-birth. What we know about Book was that he was Alliance military, fairly high up, with a profound tactical knowledge. Then he left (dis-illusioned?) and wound up finding a new faith as a Shepherd. Well, that describes the Operative to a tee! The movie goes out of its way to say he strongly believes in his cause (not his actions). He gets dis-illusioned with the Alliance and everything he believed in to the point where he says "There's nothing here" about himself. Now he needs to find a new Faith (not Eliza Dushku, either), and he may well turn to religion and become a Shepherd himself. Voila, rebirth!

"Don't say 'ka' until you've tried it." Daniel Jackson

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Monday, October 10, 2005 1:20 PM

MRSEMBASSY


I have a different take on Mal's conversation with Book. I've seen the film six times now, and I'm more and more convinced that Book isn't refusing to tell Mal his background; he's acknowledging that Mal already knows.

The exchange that immediately preceded those lines (Mal: "How does a shepherd know so much about that line of work?" Book: "I wasn't always a Shepherd.") is Book practically coming right out and TELLING Mal that he was an operative; so when Mal says, "You'll have to tell me about that someday," and Book replies, "No, I don't." He's basically saying, "No, I don't need to tell you... BECAUSE I JUST TOLD YOU."

The look that Mal gives him right after that seems to confirm this - it's very thoughtful, and serious; the two of them look at each other as if something very important bit of information was just exchanged.

That's how it looks to me, anyway!

-Mrs. Embassy

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Monday, October 10, 2005 1:26 PM

LEMMINGMAN


Don't know if this exactly fits the topic but here goes.

Mal 'If I see you again I'll likely kill you myself'
Operative 'You won't'

Mal won't see him coming or won't kill him?

Just Lemming Man, no more no less

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Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM

QUASARWINDS


Quote:

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.



How about this?

Mal: You think she'll hold?
Zoe: She's torn up plenty but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secrue.
Mal: Could get a bit rough.
Zoe: Always does.

Im not sure if that was the exact quote but it was something along those lines.

What do you pay him for? Public Relations.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 2:06 PM

ORPHEUS


Don't you all just love how deliberate all of these line readings are? It's almost like they're giving us permission to read too much into it. I'm definitely loving it.


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Monday, October 10, 2005 2:55 PM

DERANGEDMILK


engineangel wrote:
WOW ... i love that explaination. It's amazing. WOW. good job!


DUDE!!! I got a kiss!!!!

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Monday, October 10, 2005 5:03 PM

ENGINEANGEL


SORRY, THIS IS A LONG RESPONSE. I'VE JUST GOT TO ANSWER EVERYONE ELSE'S RESPONSES!!!

Quote:


written by Sickdude:
Completely agree with the theories on Zoe's "tore up" line, her "definition of hero", and River's "they don't lie down". As to the original thread's number two (gee, that sounds bad), "they won't see this coming". I thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". Cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.


this just came to me when i saw your response.

Mal says "they won't see this coming".

You thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". You thought the cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

I think that you are right that he's thinking about what Book said, but I think Mal was thinking about how since the allience comes at people sideways, they wouldn't expect Mal to come straight at them (which he does: "Bastard's not even changing direction" - said by the operative.) I'm sure that he also meant "they won't think that the reavers are behind us." It also could be literal - there was a cloud distorting the allience's view of all of the ships.

Quote:


written by Sickdude:
As to number one, Book's statement that he doesn't need to know, I completely agree. Joss is saying the Book backstory will never get told, and isn't crucial to the story. However, here's something that didn't occur to me until the last screening: the element of re-birth. What we know about Book was that he was Alliance military, fairly high up, with a profound tactical knowledge. Then he left (dis-illusioned?) and wound up finding a new faith as a Shepherd. Well, that describes the Operative to a tee! The movie goes out of its way to say he strongly believes in his cause (not his actions). He gets dis-illusioned with the Alliance and everything he believed in to the point where he says "There's nothing here" about himself. Now he needs to find a new Faith (not Eliza Dushku, either), and he may well turn to religion and become a Shepherd himself. Voila, rebirth!


Wow!! I completly agree with your analysis of Sheperd Book being an Operative in the past. Remember, the operative in the movie "didn't know the secrets, he just had to keep them." It "wasn't his place to ask what was going on", but once he found out he was "no longer they're [the allience's] man."

Quote:


written by LEMMINGMAN
Ma:l 'If I see you again I'd like to kill you myself'
Operative 'You won't'
Mal won't see him coming or won't kill him?


The operative says: "You won't. There is nothing left to see." I'm pretty sure he's saying "you won't see me again."

Quote:


written by QUASARWINDS
Mal: You think she'll hold?
Zoe: She's torn up plenty but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secure.
Mal: Could get a bit rough.
Zoe: Always does.

I'm not sure if that was the exact quote but it was something along those lines.


You got it mostly right. The end is actually:
Mal: It could get Bumpy.
Zoe: Always is.

Quote:


written by ORPHEUS
Don't you all just love how deliberate all of these line readings are? It's almost like they're giving us permission to read too much into it. I'm definitely loving it.


Of course!!! I am in love - with Joss Whedon's writing.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Monday, October 10, 2005 6:01 PM

SIGNINE


Well, since this thread is spoilertastic I guess I don't need to hide anything anymore, do I?

So I've got an interesting one for you, it's been mentioned that Wash will appear in any sequel to Serenity. It would follow then that we're either going to have a crazy Whedon moment (Wash's clone! Wash was a robot and the real Wash is in captivity! Wash's Ghost!), actually that would be a crazy writing moment, apart from Whedon, or Wash survived.

I know, his death was too perfect, it pulled my heartstrings, got a tear, but also ultimate respect.

On the other hand, I don't know if it was intended this way or not, but when River and Mal take Serenity up (after presumeably weeks of repairs), you see the dinosaurs still on the console. I don't know about you, but I instantly read into this in a couple ways. Serenity was Wash's best friend (other than Zoe). After the crash sequence, we all thought Serenity was dead. One of her engines flew off, things were torn apart, there were holes and broken glass everywhere, things didn't look good.

Then Wash gets impaled, and we thus assume he is dead as well, we even see his grave.

On the other hand, we never see the crew return to Serenity, we only see her taking off after repairs are complete, and those silly dinosaurs are still on the console. Is that Mal giving props to Wash, did everyone just forget about that? Is Zoe cool with seeing reminders of her dead husband everywhere? Serenity was fixed up, isn't it possible Wash could have been? I can see him demanding having a grave if he couldn't show up for the funeral.

It makes sense to ME anyway.

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Monday, October 10, 2005 6:44 PM

UNICORN


Okay. I'll number my submissions to this thread in the text. Spoilers aplenty!















Wash's last words? That's an awful lot like a Samurai warrior speaking a poem before he commits sepuku, or ritual suicide by self-disembowelment. (Wash had a good death (1), the very kind the Operative was talking about, and run through the middle, too!)

Structurally, his death was necessary to make sure we all knew that Joss has no "token deaths," those red-shirted characters other people create to signify the seriousness oif a situation. Wash's death made sure everyone in the theatre thought, "Oh God, Oh God, They're all going to die!" (2) For the next twenty-five minutes, we all wondered if Joss was going to let all of our heroes die. Wash's death gave the last siege an enormous intensity, that was its purpose.

But this too, mirrored reality, in a sense; we all thought F*x had killed our beloved 'Verse, had run it through and vanquished it forever. We were all afraid that it would never return, that we would never see our heroes again. But just as F*x failed to destroy our show, so the Alliance forces ultimately failed to kill Serenity, and the crew pull through, just barely, to see another day (3).

This whole movie was a big screw-you to F*x, by my way of thinking; "No matter what you throw at us, we're still here, and you can't stop the signal, (4)" Joss was saying to them.

There is no such thing as a weed.

Serenity is here. 9/30/05

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