GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

BDM Double Meanings

POSTED BY: DUCESTECUM
UPDATED: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:41
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Monday, October 10, 2005 7:24 PM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by signine:
On the other hand, I don't know if it was intended this way or not, but when River and Mal take Serenity up (after presumeably weeks of repairs), you see the dinosaurs still on the console.

On the other hand, we never see the crew return to Serenity, we only see her taking off after repairs are complete, and those silly dinosaurs are still on the console. Is that Mal giving props to Wash, did everyone just forget about that? Is Zoe cool with seeing reminders of her dead husband everywhere? Serenity was fixed up, isn't it possible Wash could have been? I can see him demanding having a grave if he couldn't show up for the funeral.

It makes sense to ME anyway.




The dinos on the console has made me very uncomfortable since first viewing, and unlike Wash's death (which I'm at peace with) the dinos bothered me more, and it seemed there were more shots of more dinos the second time I saw Serenity. Dang, the crew wouldn't just leave them there. At least not without some word as to why. Zoe wouldn't have maybe stood for it anyway, as you say. Hmmmm.

Wouldn't that be just like Joss. Anyone remember the end bits of the Buffy episode "Lover's Walk" (one of my very favorite of all things)? Cordelia was...wait an f'ing minute...she was bloody well -impaled- by falling onto a piece of rebar...it looked very bad for the good guys, or anyway for Cordelia. Next shot is a boom shot of a funeral with some Scooby-looking attendees and you hear the minister giving an 'ashes to ashes' sermon. Camera descends to street level, and -look! Buffy and Willow walking down the street, passing right in front of the funeral which isn't Cordelia's after all. Joss is a tricksy naughty man.

Signine, you may have something here!


Oh, and one other thing. The second time I saw the movie, I Forgot. To eat. My chocolate. This is a thing that has never happened. Not the first time I saw it, the second. I like this movie a lot.

"You want a slinky dress? I can buy you a slinky dress...Captain, can I have money for a slinky dress?" -Wash

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Monday, October 10, 2005 9:30 PM

BRAINYSMURF00


One sort-of-double-meaning I noticed is that Book said that the Alliance would "come at them sideways" and then, the ships when they were waiting in the ion cloud actually looked sideways compared to the ships in the tv pilot Serenity.


**Special note: New Browncoat here. This is my first post! "

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:40 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Book's blood filled whisper into Mal's ear :

Shepard understands that Mal lost all trust in
many things
, not only the lord or his god, but in people aswell. He tells Mal no matter what his philosophy - that he has to believe - have faith in humanity and his crew -
and a hardened Mal then finally puts trust in his people, River Tam, and starts to trust the people of the worlds he's willing to inform about Reavers.

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:39 AM

ENGINEANGEL


I've heard that all of the cast has been signed on for the next sequels. That could mean three things - the first two were already mentioned by signine:
Quote:


So I've got an interesting one for you, it's been mentioned that Wash will appear in any sequel to Serenity. It would follow then that we're either going to have a crazy Whedon moment (Wash's clone! Wash was a robot and the real Wash is in captivity! Wash's Ghost!), actually that would be a crazy writing moment, apart from Whedon, or Wash survived.


- crazy whedon momment: A clone is a possibility, but the real wash is in captivity and was a robot just doesn't work. Joss would never do that. And do you think Zoe would have reacted the way she did (come on Wash, baby, get up!!!) if he was just a robot) No, that one doesn't work. My favorite scenario is that Wash comes back as a ghost only River can see. he can't leave the ship because he hasn't yet made peace with Zoe. He didn't even get to say good-bye. River can see him because she is a phsycic and can sense feelings and stuff around her.

- Wash survived: no way. The poll went straight through his stomach and he was left there too long before anyone could see to his wound. Lost to much blood and why would they have a funeral for him if he wasn't dead?

but signine left one out that I don't particularly like but just might happen: flashbacks (for both book and wash).
- flashbacks: they may very well happen. The next movie might very well be dealing with Zoe and how she and the rest of the crew are getting over the death of Wash. You can already see that they can't totally let him go - the dinosaurs are still there. The second movie might also be dealing with Zoe questioning what she does: we already see some of that after Mal wouldn't dump the cargo and take that man with them ("in the time of war, we would have never left a man behind.") - and when she says that, you can see that for several seconds afterword she seems to be questioning why, but then she turns her attention to Wash and it's all okay. Well, wash isn't there anymore so what's going to happen next time around?

just my thoughts
keep flyin'
EngineAngel


"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:57 AM

RELFEXIVE


Everything strange said by River means something.

"I swallowed a bug" - barnswallow

"He didn't lie down... they never lie down" - Reavers were the ones who didn't lie down and die on Miranda

"Show me off like a dog... old men covered in blood, it doesn't touch them but they're drowning in it" - can't remember the exact words just now, but obviously refers to those key members of Parliament



"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."
"Come a day there won't be room for naughty men like us to slip about at all..."
I know the secret.
http://www.theshadowdepository.co.uk/index.htm

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 7:17 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by MrsEmbassy:
I have a different take on Mal's conversation with Book. I've seen the film six times now, and I'm more and more convinced that Book isn't refusing to tell Mal his background; he's acknowledging that Mal already knows.

The exchange that immediately preceded those lines (Mal: "How does a shepherd know so much about that line of work?" Book: "I wasn't always a Shepherd.") is Book practically coming right out and TELLING Mal that he was an operative; so when Mal says, "You'll have to tell me about that someday," and Book replies, "No, I don't." He's basically saying, "No, I don't need to tell you... BECAUSE I JUST TOLD YOU."

-Mrs. Embassy



I think you have it there.

Here's another tidbit: Mal's scene with Inara where he tells her 'I got no rudder, wind blows north, I go north...' then in few seconds later he says 'you spin me about, fog things up' ha ha ha ha ha what is she, the south wind - she is his rudder, he just doesn't recognize it. That's a cute little D.M.

Another frosting covered seven layer tidbit I enjoyed was the whole murky business with the classroom, one of River's nightmare rooms where shitty things happen. When she was starting to get clear about the Pax/Reaver information that was frying her brain, there's that scene where she tiptoes into the classroom in her sexy hospital gown. She looks down at the deskscreen and floating behind the Chinese characters is Miranda. She pulls it todard her mind, and then there's a reverse perspective shot of giant River looking through the deskscreen at the spinning planet below (planet shown in real colors, River in nightmarespace glow). That was fab. The whole thing where the classroom was nightmare space for her was creepy-good. I liked the actress playing little River too, she was so believable -'we're in their ** and in their heads, and we haven't the right'.

I'm experiencing withdrawal, should possibly return for another viewing. MrsEmbassy above writes that she's seen it six times, I read someone else saying thirteen times, ok, so four times isn't crazy, right? I did get my homework done.

"The leg is good. It'll bleed plenty and we avoid any necessary organs" -Mal

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:51 AM

ENGINEANGEL


Quote:


written by RelFlexive:
Everything strange said by River means something.
1) "I swallowed a bug" - barnswallow
2) "He didn't lie down... they never lie down" - Reavers were the ones who didn't lie down and die on Miranda
3) "Show me off like a dog... old men covered in blood, it doesn't touch them but they're drowning in it" - can't remember the exact words just now, but obviously refers to those key members of Parliament.


1) eh ... it's not a huge thing. I think it might just have been comic releif.
2) totally agree with you on this point.
3) I agree with you here as well. "Show me off like a dog": remember in the beginning we hear that the man saying that key members of parliament have seen River.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:14 PM

JCLAST


I never got into Buffy or Angel, but has Joss ever done time travel before? My reason for asking is this:

Maybe Book doesn't need to tell Mal his story because Mal is experiencing it. The implication is that Book was an operative, but what if we was _the_ operative?

Then it also makes sense that the operative reformed. He travelled back to try and help Mal et al, but he couldn't stop his prior self.

Both characters are phenomenally calm, cool, and collected. And on the surface, they're both fairly muscular black men. Joss very well could have given us all something that we've been wanting all along without even telling us.

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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:13 AM

SHANNY


I'd have to say my take on the Wash thing is that they were referring to the Reavers helping them out with the Alliance, willingly or not. But I guess I definitely didn't see his death coming. I think Joss put that in there to remind us of the mortality of them all. Like someone else said, he was a leaf on the wind, but mortal enough on the ground. Firefly is supposed to be a bit more realistic and you can't do high adventure things like that without someone getting hurt.

As for River and her "do you" comment. I think she could tell something big was about to happen, and Mal has sort of taken over the role of her and Simon's guardian. As we saw in Safe when she says "daddy will come." She knows she's going to need his help to get through it all and I think she knows he pretty much will help her with anything.

I think the thing about Zoe is right on though. Mal and Zoe have a way of speaking to each other without words. She hasn't come through a civil war and all their hardships to give up with the death of her husband. She'll keep flying true under her Captain. It's just Zoe's way.

Oh, I'm gonna go to the special hell.

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:47 PM

BLINKER


The title is a double entendre in itself, considering the fate of Miranda.

Quote:

Originally posted by Unicorn:
Wash's death made sure everyone in the theatre thought, "Oh God, Oh God, They're all going to die!"



Which is, after all, the definition of interesting -- in adventure movies as well as landings.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 1:24 PM

GREENFAERIE


I only got this on my second viewing... and REALLY got it on my third. When the crew is on Miranda, after River freaks out and Jayne says (like) "All these people died for no reason!"

As his words finish, the camera is on Wash for a full beat: silence.

A beat later, a close-up on Wash as he delivers the next line. But that first beat on Wash, "... died for no reason!" Wow. That's cinematic foreshadowing at its best. (Of course there was a reason plot-wise, but to them, and most of us, it was a senseless death).


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Monday, October 17, 2005 3:58 AM

UNICORN


I didn't post this earlier, but "Miranda" is also kind of Joss playing with us. Miranda was two things on earth that was: it was Shakespeaere's character who says, "O brave new world/That has such people in't" (The Alliance were trying, after all, to create a brave new world; such people indeed!) and Miranda was also the name for the series of rights you are read when you're put under arrest, which begin with "You have the right to remain silent." Just like all them folk on Miranda, wouldn't you say?

There is no such thing as a weed.


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Monday, October 17, 2005 6:01 AM

GREENFAERIE


Miranda was also the name of the Forbidden Planet (from the same movie).


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Monday, October 17, 2005 6:30 AM

SONG


Quote:

Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I only got this on my second viewing... and REALLY got it on my third. When the crew is on Miranda, after River freaks out and Jayne says (like) "All these people died for no reason!"

As his words finish, the camera is on Wash for a full beat: silence.

A beat later, a close-up on Wash as he delivers the next line. But that first beat on Wash, "... died for no reason!" Wow. That's cinematic foreshadowing at its best. (Of course there was a reason plot-wise, but to them, and most of us, it was a senseless death).



This post sent serious chills through me. Well spotted! I'm not sure I ever would have picked that up on my own.

-----
"Is it time to go to sleep again?"
"No, mei-mei. It's time to wake up."

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Monday, October 17, 2005 7:07 AM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


I just gotta say here that this is the most awesome thread I have read around here. I friggin' love this stuff and am soooo impressed with Joss's writing that it allows us to ponder these things, whether they are right or wrong. Fantastic!

The only thing I think I could really add at this point is that when Mal says that "they won't see this coming", I more or less gathered that he was referring to the video recording that they had just obtained. Mal intents to make sure that it gets out into the public's hands, and there's no way the Allience could see it coming 'cause they don't even know it exitsts. And that ties in with all the stuff about Book's death giving him a purpose as well. From the moment he gets that recording he know's exactly what he has to do. And it ties into the whole "can't stop the signal" thing too.

Links links links. Keep posting stuff here, I'm lovin' every bit of it!

Mike
www.penickart.com

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Monday, October 17, 2005 7:32 AM

KIORIA


spoilers, of course





I agree with most of the stuff said here, but I've not seen many people draw the same parallels I started seeing on my second viewing of the movie. UNICORN got some of it with saying the whole movie was telling the network to go shove it.

I see the entire movie as a kind of parallel to what happened with the series. Off to a rocky start, almost didn't make it off the ground - apathy causing a horrible loss - a few dedicated soldiers (us browncoats) trying their darnedest to get the word out to everyone... Wash was brave, Wash was heroic, Wash was funny and excellent at what he did - but BOOM he's gone. That's the death of the show itself. The fight following that being our insane struggle to get the thing we loved back in whatever way possible, and finally we DID get the signal out...but people have to be watching to notice.

We patched ourselves up and kept flying. And it was love, as per Mal's speech at the end, that kept the whole concept in the air when it should've fallen down. I believe (as someone else did say) that's Joss's speech and "thank you kindly" to us for our support. What do you guys think?

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Monday, October 17, 2005 7:43 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH


Okay, first thing in response to Unicorn's posts about Miranda: those are interesting theories, although Miranda could be something mythological too. Most of the planet names in the 'verse have mythological backgrounds: Persephone being a Greek goddess, Bellerophon is also from Greek mythology and I'm sure there's more examples, I just can't think of them.

Then, about the movie itself: I think that this movie is so deep, you could watch it ten times and still not get everything, which is part of what makes this movie so great. I agree with most of the double meanings I've seen posted here, except for No. 2 "You won't see this coming." Although it could be true, because certainly none of us saw Wash's death coming, I don't think Joss would be that mean. I think that it was just about the Reavers and that's that.

I also find the time-traveling theory very interesting. It could fit. I certainly think that Book was an operative at some point. It definitely gives me something to think on!

We're pretty much just giving each other significant glances and laughing incessantly.

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Friday, February 17, 2006 3:42 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by fireflyfan70:

I agree with the first and 3rd idaes but not the second. When Mal said they won't see this coming I think he was referring to the Reaver fleet.



Yes, absolutely.

Quote:


I do have another double meaning that I think has been overlooked tho. Early in the movie when they are getting ready for the heist at the trading station, Mal asks River if she understands her part in this. She relpys to him "Do you?"

To me that statement had more than one meaning. River asking Mal if he understood his part in what to come( the rest of the story) and also her role in the big picture, not just the heist.



Good one, too. I think you're right.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, February 17, 2006 4:03 PM

ASARIAN


Quote:

Originally posted by iamaleafonthewind:

The only thing I think I could really add at this point is that when Mal says that "they won't see this coming", I more or less gathered that he was referring to the video recording that they had just obtained. Mal intents to make sure that it gets out into the public's hands, and there's no way the Allience could see it coming 'cause they don't even know it exitsts. And that ties in with all the stuff about Book's death giving him a purpose as well. From the moment he gets that recording he know's exactly what he has to do. And it ties into the whole "can't stop the signal" thing too.



This is the part I would have to disagree. :)

Mail is explaning about Mr. Universe, and how he can put the signal on every screen for worlds. But then Zoe says: "It's a fair bet the Alliance knows about Mr. Universe. They're gonna see this coming." And, of course, they DID see it coming; cuz the Alliance and the Operative were lying in wait for Mal and his crew at Mr. Universe's little asteroid (or whatever that is). Moreover, the Operative, at that time, had already infiltrated the place and killed Mr. Universe.

What they did NOT see coming, of course, was Mal's downright brilliant plan to use "our one bitty cannon" (Jayne) against a Reaver ship, to then get the heck out there, and have the whole gorram Reaver fleet on their tail to battle the Alliance.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, February 17, 2006 4:10 PM

SAVEWASH

Now I am learning about scary.


Quote:

Originally posted by derangedmilk:
Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended. I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.
-e



Sign me up! I think I actually yelled, "NO!" and looked around the theatre to see who was with me. (Note my alias above.) Then I went home and got very morose, so much so that I couldn't recommend the movie to anyone for several days until I calmed down. I'm still not over it, but at least I can recommend the movie because the rest of it rocks! If I ever meet Joss, the first word out of my mouth will be, "Why????" (I've heard his explanation and it makes sense, but it doesn't make me feel any better.)



"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

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Friday, February 17, 2006 8:55 PM

DERANGEDMILK


Funny you should respond to that now. I just got back from a showing of Serenity at the free student theatre on campus and right afterward one of the RAs in my building who I knew was a huge Firefly Serenity fan walked up to me, and mind you this is a big guy and a huge heavy metal fan, and says, "Man, I still get choked up at wash's death. Everytime."
At that moment, after seeing the movie with a ton of newbies who totally got it and were applauding and laughing throughout, I was so happy to be a browncoat. I could totally empathize with what that guy was saying to. I replied, "I know! Everytime, for the minutes leading up to it and afterward my heart beats painfully fast."
It was great to have someone else completely understand the way you feel about something. Especially something you love.
So, the short of it is: support groups out there man.
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:44 AM

SAVEWASH

Now I am learning about scary.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. Despite my best efforts so far, I don't have any fellow browncoats in this little town where I live so when I was so upset about Wash's death, I had no one to talk/cry/shout to. (My spouse usually left the room when I mentioned it.) What a difference it's made to read all the posts from people who felt the same way! That really helps.

And I give Joss Whedon full credit for creating characters that make me feel this way. So often you care in a temporary, superficial way about characters in a TV show or movie, but Joss makes you really care. I thought I must be crazy to care about a fictional character that much, but at least I'm not alone!

Thanks again, everybody, for your support and understanding.

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:52 AM

DERANGEDMILK


Glad I could help.
You're totally right, it really is a credit to the Jossanator. Sure I feel a little sad when Spock dies at the end of Wrath of Khan or I get a little teary eyed at the end of Field of Dreams, but I don't go on caring about it as much as with these characters. The man is brilliant, I can only hope to be able to write as well as him one day.
Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:29 AM

SERENITYSLITTLEANGEL



I always thought that Book's line:

"No. I don't."

was more of a foreshadow that he was going to die. He doesn't have to tell Mal someday, because he doesn't have that day.


Quote:

Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.


I thought that too!!



----------------------------
20 conversions and counting!!!

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Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:41 AM

FOLLOWMAL


Quote:

Originally posted by derangedmilk:
Also, thought I'd mention another BDM double meaning while I was here. At the end of Serenity when the Operative says, "Its not over you know." I felt in the instant before he went on talking about the alliance coming after Mal that it was Joss saying something to the fans, that the story isn't over yet, the movie might be, but the story isn't. Just what I thought though.



Thanks for this thread coming back guys, I have been thinking about this a lot in this last week, while the rumors have swirled and been crushed, etc.

There are a lot of times in the BDM that I think it's Joss talking to us. The love speech at the end, is I think Joss telling us that the movie was kept in the air so to speak, because of our love and their love ( cast and crew) and he found a way to express that.

Felt the same way about the Operative saying the above. I think Joss told us it isn't over... we still have more stories to come.

I think my sig line is another instance, Joss just put the words in Mal's mouth. I take it literally. I know that's a little daft, but I know from what I've read that Joss has meanings within meanings in his writing and I think he's telling us to hold the line.

I am heartened by that.





" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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