REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Sunday, March 1, 2020 12:20
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Monday, March 6, 2017 4:43 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A look back on Assad and Putin's "liberation" of Aleppo:



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Monday, March 6, 2017 4:54 PM

THGRRI


It's all very sad KPO.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2017 8:36 PM

THGRRI


HEY DREAMTROVE

First cites, then go back and read this thread. See if you think 1kiki and SIG are trolling on behalf of Russia. Then, well I'll wait and see what you say. Whether you read the thread or not, whether you comment or not. Both will be very telling. This post by you also gives hints to what you'll do, what you'll say. Others here besides me will pick up clues about you from what you do, what you say.

Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
SO not walking into this firestorm, just to feed a piece of information.

This is NOT a conspiracy theory, it's now established fact now, so whoever this helps, you're welcome, whoever loses point on this score, sorry, that's life.

The Turkish militants just confessed to their part in the Benghazi transfer of chemical weapons to Al Nusra for use against Assad in a false flag attack.

Their report completely backs up the story Seymour Hersh broke a couple years ago, the real story of Benghazi, that HRC used JSCO to transfer the weapons and then transfer weapons to Libyan rebels along with a list of targets that included the American consulate.

Hersh basically covers everything in his article, so there's not need for me to do so here, but I know the New Yorker originally rejected the story because they thought it would hurt Hillary, so it ran in Al Jazeera, a few on others.

The conclusion of the piece is that the gas attacks, both the initial 1500 victim attack and the total 15000, were in fact carried out from Al Nusra, with weapons surrendered to the Benghazi US consulate by Muammar Gaddafi. The weapons were transfered to Al Nusra by HRC. Al Nusra carried out the attacks, as a false flag to blame Assad and get open western support. They failed to get open support and have since joined ISIS.

Again, not arguing the point, just posting to end any argument as to the responsibility for the gas attacks, and the source of chemical weapons in Syria.



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Thursday, March 9, 2017 10:43 AM

THGRRI


Two opportunities to respond to this and no response. I have my answer.

HEY DREAMTROVE

First cites, then go back and read this thread. See if you think 1kiki and SIG are trolling on behalf of Russia. Then, well I'll wait and see what you say. Whether you read the thread or not, whether you comment or not. Both will be very telling. This post by you also gives hints to what you'll do, what you'll say. Others here besides me will pick up clues about you from what you do, what you say.

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Thursday, March 9, 2017 12:13 PM

6STRINGJOKER


Hey DT,

Go back and read all 1,000 posts over the weekend. We expect a book report on Monday.

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Thursday, March 9, 2017 12:25 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Hey DT,

Go back and read all 1,000 posts over the weekend. We expect a book report on Monday.



No need Jack. It's easy to understand what is going on in glance. Just look at what KPO posts and how SIG and 1kiki respond. Just a few posts makes the point.

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Thursday, March 9, 2017 12:30 PM

THGRRI



Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"During the last week of January, Syrian government forces supported by Russian airstrikes began a ground offensive in the northern part of the Aleppo Countryside governorate to break the siege imposed by armed groups on the towns of Nubul and Zahraa."

The quote above is the only reference specifically to Russian airstrikes.



G responce

No it isn't:
"On 1 February, the Syrian government forces and the Syrian Democratic Forces, which include Kurdish, Arab and Assyrian groups, continued their offensive in the same area. Civilians who fled the northern part of the Aleppo Countryside governorate to the Bab al-Salam border crossing into Turkey told Amnesty that Russian and Syrian government airstrikes escalated in the first week of February, forcing thousands of people to flee. With no functioning hospitals left in the area, many of those injured in the airstrikes were forced to drive for hours to obtain medical help."

Sorry, wrong on that one.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
But there's nothing in that quote about airstrikes on hospitals or medical facilities that the article claims to be addressing.




G response

Not right either. To be accurate, the article's title claims to be addressing: "Syrian and Russian forces have deliberately targeted hospitals near Aleppo" - doesn't say "airstrikes." Must be your haste to draw your pre-formed conclusions clouding your judgment.

The article does say:
"Russian and Syrian government forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months to pave the way for ground forces to advance on northern Aleppo, an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found."

You can disagree if you like - do you have any evidence they are wrong?

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki: Maybe they got wise to the fact that astute people were noticing the lack of evidence for their claims.


G response

Actually, astute people would realize that Amnesty International doesn't write their reports to satisfy Russian trolls.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
In any case, you won't find a single - not one - claim of specifically Russian airstrikes targeting the places they claim were targeted. Which is a glaringly obvious omission for an article you seem to think is about those bad Russians targeting civilians.



G response

So to you it's ok if it's Russian surface-to-surface missiles or tanks shelling hospitals and killing civilians, just not their air force?

"Amnesty International Crisis Response Director Tirana Hassan said:

“Syrian and Russian forces have been deliberately attacking health facilities in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But what is truly egregious is that wiping out hospitals appears to have become part of their military strategy."

That's ok, just not with planes?

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And, in your haste to draw your pre-formed conclusions..."




G response

My preformed conclusion is that Russia has a well equipped air force in Syria loaded with bombs and they don't really give a shit who they bomb as long as it ends the hostilities and keeps Assad in power. And to that end they will bomb hospitals if they feel it helps, with missiles from whatever delivery system they can. Seem reasonable to you?

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki: ... you missed the most important message in the story... "


G response

I happen to think this is a much greater message: “Syrian and Russian forces have been deliberately attacking health facilities in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But what is truly egregious is that wiping out hospitals appears to have become part of their military strategy."

You obviously have a different perspective.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
- the siege was imposed by the terrorist groups that the Russians and Syrians are fighting against. "During the last week of January, Syrian government forces supported by Russian airstrikes began a ground offensive in the northern part of the Aleppo Countryside governorate to break the siege imposed by armed groups on the towns of Nubul and Zahraa."



G response

You left out how their action, "... cut off the supply route from both this area and Turkey to Aleppo city. On 1 February, the Syrian government forces and the Syrian Democratic Forces, which include Kurdish, Arab and Assyrian groups, continued their offensive in the same area. Civilians who fled the northern part of the Aleppo Countryside governorate to the Bab al-Salam border crossing into Turkey told Amnesty that Russian and Syrian government airstrikes escalated in the first week of February, forcing thousands of people to flee. With no functioning hospitals left in the area, many of those injured in the airstrikes were forced to drive for hours to obtain medical help. Interviews with doctors and medical workers in and around Aleppo indicate that health facilities were among the first buildings targeted in a series of airstrikes at the start of the offensive, which they believe were intended to prevent the injured from receiving medical treatment. "

Yeah, I can see why you left that out.



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Thursday, March 9, 2017 12:39 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So now, everyone is a craven coward because NOBODY in their right mind would welcome government troops??



Huh? I can't even guess how your brain got so narrow. Little Signym One Note. Why do you almost always go 180 degrees to the negative assumption? You need so much hand holding.
So what you said, just the opposite in fact. EVERYONE in their right mind would welcome the stopping of shelling and cheer whoever the hell comes in as the victor - do you get that? Remember how just one post ago I said people welcomed ISIL?

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is your problem, in a nutshell: You just can't believe that anyone might have different motivations than you. You can't believe anyone would willingly join ISIL, [wrong - unbased assumption] and you can't believe anyone would willingly support Assad.[wrong - unbased assumption] You can't believe anyone would willingly fight Kiev, either. [wrong - unbased assumption] Any time anyone expresses an opinion that you don't share, they're either mistaken, or they're forced into it. [wrong - unbased assumption] Because they're all REALLY just GSTRING under the skin, or if they're not- they should be. There's just no other right way to think, except the way GSTRING thinks. [wrong - unbased assumption]



Again, just the opposite of your assumptions. I think that's your thing, the way you preserve your fragile ego is to make these negative assumptions so you can easily knock them down. Kind of lazy and weak and very tedious. You also over simply most things. The life of some average citizen living in the hell that is Syria is full of trade offs. Where am I living? Where do my friends and family live. Who controls these areas? Who will best support me and family/friends in the future? Who do I have more to worry about. Who looks like they will win? Who does my neighbor support? Like the sands of the desert, it's an ever shifting list. Gee, I think someone said that before - were you listening? Are you listening?

Almost forgot to re-ask you: what does Russia gain from this?

I love this! What a steaming pile... where you there to ask these people?
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Here's the way it works, son: SOME of the people who could run- ran. With the approach of Sunni jihadists towards Aleppo, Xtians, Druze, Alawites, etc who could run - ran. SOME of "the people" welcomed jihadism. WHY? Because they were Sunnis theocrats under-the-skin who wanted to impose their theocracy on everyone. SOME of the population fought. Why? Because they were not Sunni theocrats under-the-skin, and they viewed the Sunni theocrats as an existential threat. MANY ducked their heads and tried to hang on, hoping for help from elsewhere. Why? Because they had neither the physical nor emotional capacity to fight OR to run, so they "hid". And SOME, through either fear or reward, changed sides and joined the jihadists ... they collaborated.



You must have the best Google map app to see all of that - wait, I know, it's easy for you. Except, most of that is "no shit" people doing whatever to survive, as already stated. A lot is just your imagined powers of *guessing* from an over-priced yuppie computer chair in Cali.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
With the current approach of four plus one troops, those who are running are mostly Sunni theocrats and their collaborators (and family) because they fear retribution. Yanno, kind of like what happened after WWII with Nazi collaborators. It's as simple as that, and ... you should have figured that out by now.



"...four plus one troops..." do you have one of their t-shirts? Are you typing while wearing one of their hats?

4+1
=
DEATH

You sound like a sports fan.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The fact that you have to castigate an entire people as collaborators... some of whom are against Sunni theocracy and terrorism ... says an awful lot about you.



*snort* Eh? What would a SIGNYM post be without a lie? I know - you just can't help yourself.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It says that you can't differentiate among groups and see (much less accept) their diverse motivations. That explains your failure to understand that MANY Syrians support Assad.



Both wrong and obvious - they had a good life under Assad and want it back - doesn't take a 10,000 word post to say that.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It explains your failure to recognize that nearly all of the Crimean population happily voted to secede from Ukraine, and a third of Ukrainians were angry with or afraid of the new regime in Kiev. It explains your failure to see that at least a third of Libyans STRONGLY supported Qaddafi, which is why "the war" required NATO bombing and tons (literally) of Qatari and Saudi support. And that Iraq would head in three entirely different directions. You so strongly assume that everyone feels (or should feel) the way GSTRING feels that entire groups ... quite possibly close to three-quarters of the globe ... of people are invalid/ invisible to you, and anything they say is dismissable as cowardice or collaboration.



"It explains your failure to recognize..."
Yahtzee! Double points for making more sh*t up twice. When did I voice an opinion on any of those mostly unrelated topics? Never? So you made that up then - ok.

"GSTRING feels that entire groups ... quite possibly close to three-quarters of the globe ... of people are invalid/ invisible to you, and anything they say is dismissable as cowardice or collaboration."

Hahahahahahahaha! You may be a liar but you're also a crack up.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm using a lot of words hoping that SOME of them will get through, but here's the point: You're on the wrong side of this moral equation. You, THUGR, and KPO. Somehow, you've wound up on the side of ISIL and jihadism. How did you get there?



Because innocent civilian babies taste best when roasted with scuds!

You really are a total drama queen / idiot.



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Thursday, March 9, 2017 8:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


6, lol

Thg,

I already said. I posted 1 story by Sy Hersh, there are others, anyone can just search seymour hersh, syria, and fine everything.

Second, wikileaks i mentioned, again, search wikileaks syria, and you'll find these accounts in agreement.

third, i mentioned the turkish militants confess, somewhere i already posted the story, but again, easier to find it probably just by searching.

this isn't like climate change, there actually really isn't a debate about differing accounts with solid backing. Even the UN agreed with this account, and said they wouldn't put it in the first report, because they didn't want ot anger the US, so they made a second report and released it anyway.

So everybody knows, HRC put the hit on Benghazi to cover up the hit they put on Syria, We were defeated by Lebanon, of all nations, and Russia came in to clean up the mess. Well, good for Russia. I hear Syria is a very nice place, I'd like to go sometimes. And all those immigrants in Sweden I'm sure would love to get back there, once the US is gone.

It's strange that all the liberals are baking the fundamentalist far right sunni theocrats against the alawite (unitarian) socialist govt of Bashar al Assad. That's not liberal, that's just party line democrat into high absurdity.The Saudis and their US puppets want this, but no one else wants it. God knows the Syrians don't want it.

If the Syrians wanted someone else, it's a democracy, they could just vote for someone else. The fact of the matter remains that Assad, like Putin, has a higher approval rating than any US president this century. And they deserve it, because they're actually defending their people, not fucking around in some forgotten corner of the world where most of the people back home in their country would never have heard of the place or speak the language or even be able to pronounce the names.

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Thursday, March 9, 2017 10:03 PM

THGRRI


Yep, I knew it.

Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
6, lol

Thg,

I already said. I posted 1 story by Sy Hersh, there are others, anyone can just search seymour hersh, syria, and fine everything.

Second, wikileaks i mentioned, again, search wikileaks syria, and you'll find these accounts in agreement.

third, i mentioned the turkish militants confess, somewhere i already posted the story, but again, easier to find it probably just by searching.

this isn't like climate change, there actually really isn't a debate about differing accounts with solid backing. Even the UN agreed with this account, and said they wouldn't put it in the first report, because they didn't want ot anger the US, so they made a second report and released it anyway.

So everybody knows, HRC put the hit on Benghazi to cover up the hit they put on Syria, We were defeated by Lebanon, of all nations, and Russia came in to clean up the mess. Well, good for Russia. I hear Syria is a very nice place, I'd like to go sometimes. And all those immigrants in Sweden I'm sure would love to get back there, once the US is gone.

It's strange that all the liberals are baking the fundamentalist far right sunni theocrats against the alawite (unitarian) socialist govt of Bashar al Assad. That's not liberal, that's just party line democrat into high absurdity.The Saudis and their US puppets want this, but no one else wants it. God knows the Syrians don't want it.

If the Syrians wanted someone else, it's a democracy, they could just vote for someone else. The fact of the matter remains that Assad, like Putin, has a higher approval rating than any US president this century. And they deserve it, because they're actually defending their people, not fucking around in some forgotten corner of the world where most of the people back home in their country would never have heard of the place or speak the language or even be able to pronounce the names.



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Thursday, March 9, 2017 11:09 PM

DREAMTROVE


That a proven fact is still dismissed because it conflicts with Thgr's opinion.

You asked me to explain, so I did. Obviously i'm not going to do your work for you, I have other things to do, I have to heal myself of a terminal illness. I don't actually care who agrees with me. I'm just hear to learn stuff I didn't know.

I took the time to do this because you insisted. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind.Try learning something you don't already know.



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Friday, March 10, 2017 12:07 AM

6STRINGJOKER


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
It's strange that all the liberals are baking the fundamentalist far right sunni theocrats against the alawite (unitarian) socialist govt of Bashar al Assad. That's not liberal, that's just party line democrat into high absurdity.The Saudis and their US puppets want this, but no one else wants it. God knows the Syrians don't want it.



This is part of a larger and very strange phenomena that I've noticed taking place over the last couple of election cycles. Somehow they've flipped the script and the Democrats are now standing for many of the things they were raging against during the GWB administration. Things that I was raging right along side of them about back in those days.

I've been accused of having a less than average capability to remember things that have happened recently by one of these hard-line Democrats, and I find that very amusing.

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Friday, March 10, 2017 6:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I find that amusing, too. Suddenly, Democrats are pro-war instead of pro-peace, and Democrats are the ones screaming in neo-McCarthyite angst. Just goes to show that even people who claim to represent "reason" can be led over a cliff by partisanship.


----

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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Friday, March 10, 2017 9:57 AM

DREAMTROVE



Reason always had that flaw. Reason makes the winner of the argument into the truth. That was the underlying message of rationalism and the French Enlightenment. Hitler pointed out that the winner of the rgument is whoever shouts loud enough and long enough. And we've seen a lot of shouting and we'll see a lot more. It's HRC, who was always pro-war, and her crowd, who now lead the left. They'll pick it up and echo it, in whatever fashion the clintonistas can phrase it to get it to catch. Women's rights, gay rights, various reasons we need to go to war. Meanwhile, Trump isn't turning out to be the peace president. Strangely we're now defending the govt. of Syria against the same militias we just funded to send against them. No one seems to have noticed that thread, or the Korea one.

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Friday, March 10, 2017 10:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

No one seems to have noticed that thread, or the Korea one.
Thank you for directing my attention that way.

I didn't see them until now, but they ARE important.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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Friday, March 10, 2017 11:28 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
That a proven fact is still dismissed because it conflicts with Thgr's opinion.

You asked me to explain, so I did. Obviously i'm not going to do your work for you, I have other things to do, I have to heal myself of a terminal illness. I don't actually care who agrees with me. I'm just hear to learn stuff I didn't know.

I took the time to do this because you insisted. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind.Try learning something you don't already know.





I quote you below dreamtrove. This is what I wanted. This shows where your loyalties lie. I led you here by the nose because I already knew what you were about. Stop patting yourself on the back. You've been manipulate into revealing a truth about yourself and how you see the world. A truth that doesn't line up with America and the rest of the free world.


Dreamtrove

" It's strange that all the liberals are baking the fundamentalist far right sunni theocrats against the alawite (unitarian) socialist govt of Bashar al Assad. That's not liberal, that's just party line democrat into high absurdity.The Saudis and their US puppets want this, but no one else wants it. God knows the Syrians don't want it.

If the Syrians wanted someone else, it's a democracy, they could just vote for someone else. The fact of the matter remains that Assad, like Putin, has a higher approval rating than any US president this century. And they deserve it, because they're actually defending their people, not fucking around in some forgotten corner of the world where most of the people back home in their country would never have heard of the place or speak the language or even be able to pronounce the names."


This is Putin and Assads propaganda and you dreamtrove are spreading it. Syria is a Republic under an authoritarian regime resembling a dictatorship. Which explains the civil war raging on there. Your unwillingness to embrace this simplest of truths, while suggesting Assad and Syria represent a democracy like we have here, says it all. As for Assad and Putin's approval rating, they are right on par with Saddam Hussain's and Kim Jong-Il.



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Friday, March 10, 2017 11:44 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

This is Putin's propaganda and you dreamtrove are spreading it.


Nah it's my opinion.

Keep it Shiny.

BTW, you have a point on Iraq. I say enough with them socialists already, but I'm not a Syrian. Obama tried "let's kill a million syrians, and leave 11 million refugees homeless." And Hillary made it happen.

that's also my opinion.

As for the election, anyone not succeeding in running against the party in power would need to establish a based, have a pro-syrian rather than western puppet platform, and collection some international watchdogs not run by a t-shirt shop in Coventry.

meanwhile, looks like there's a brand new nation of ISIS, where you can buy a tween slavegirl.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/roughly-3-000-women-girls-sold-i
sis-sex-slave-market-article-1.2700156


Good job Obama, that's change I can believe in.

I'm sure Trump going to war with them won't help.

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Friday, March 10, 2017 11:47 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

This is Putin's propaganda and you dreamtrove are spreading it.


Nah it's my opinion.

Keep it Shiny.

BTW, you have a point on Iraq. I say enough with them socialists already, but I'm not a Syrian. Obama tried "let's kill a million syrians, and leave 11 million refugees homeless." And Hillary made it happen.

that's also my opinion.

As for the election, anyone not succeeding in running against the party in power would need to establish a based, have a pro-syrian rather than western puppet platform, and collection some international watchdogs not run by a t-shirt shop in Coventry.

meanwhile, looks like there's a brand new nation of ISIS, where you can buy a tween slavegirl.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/roughly-3-000-women-girls-sold-i
sis-sex-slave-market-article-1.2700156


Good job Obama, that's change I can believe in.

I'm sure Trump going to war with them won't help.



Just a bunch of subjective bullshit. Another SIG has been exposed.

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Friday, March 10, 2017 3:22 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:

This is Putin's propaganda and you dreamtrove are spreading it.


Nah it's my opinion.

Keep it Shiny.

BTW, you have a point on Iraq. I say enough with them socialists already, but I'm not a Syrian. Obama tried "let's kill a million syrians, and leave 11 million refugees homeless." And Hillary made it happen.

that's also my opinion.

As for the election, anyone not succeeding in running against the party in power would need to establish a based, have a pro-syrian rather than western puppet platform, and collection some international watchdogs not run by a t-shirt shop in Coventry.

meanwhile, looks like there's a brand new nation of ISIS, where you can buy a tween slavegirl.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/roughly-3-000-women-girls-sold-i
sis-sex-slave-market-article-1.2700156


Good job Obama, that's change I can believe in.

I'm sure Trump going to war with them won't help.



Just a bunch of subjective bullshit. Another SIG has been exposed.

---------------------


Funny, it seems as if that was an on-topic news item with a brief amount of non-partisan commentary, and not an attack. I think you see enemies where they do not exist. You seem to ignore any comment like "you have a point" and then invent a reason to attack.

Why drag Sig into it? you want her to respond? I guess she kinda has to now.
Unless she has you on ignore.



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Monday, March 27, 2017 8:47 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


It goes on, every day, away from the headlines.

Douma city, earlier today:





(Another video Sig and kiki will no doubt dismiss as "fake".)


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, March 30, 2017 8:25 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
It goes on, every day, away from the headlines.

Douma city, earlier today:





(Another video Sig and kiki will no doubt dismiss as "fake".)


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521




You mean SIG, 1KIKI and dreamtrove/sockpuppet don't you?

---------------------

SIG says I'm a deep state troll. oh my.


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Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:54 PM

SOCKPUPPET


Huh, I got added in here. Please replace me back to 6ix and River and sometimes G, where I belong.

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Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:12 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Gasping for life: Syria's merciless war on its own children

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/09/middleeast/syria-chemical-attack-war
d
/

Quote:

Editor's note: This story contains extremely graphic images of dead children.

She stares off into the distance as she gasps for air, her tiny chest heaving desperately to take in more oxygen. Her eyes are wide and unflinching, her pupils constricted, the panic behind them clear.

The little girl looks confused: she doesn't understand why she is dying, why she is lying in the back of a truck with other small children, some foaming at the mouth, others motionless, the life already gone from them.

The ground all around her is strewn with bodies, some wracked with convulsions, thrashing around in the mud as rescue workers attempt in vain to hose off the chemical agent that has blanketed them.



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:15 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


The latest HRW report on the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons, including at Khan Shaykhun:

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, May 10, 2017 3:54 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The latest HRW report on the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons, including at Khan Shaykhun:

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521




Thanks KPO. Sadly, I have little hope that the work these people do will have any effect on stopping the war. Nor do I think the involvement from the US or other outside forces would have ANY positive influence on the outcome. It might actually cause more deaths of innocents. It's hard to think of any time in the last 50 years where there has been such a hell hole as Syria. That whole country will be dead bodies and concrete rubble and a bunker with Assad crouching in the corner when this is done.




Putin's getting desperate for a solution. Remember,
the Russian economy is roughly the size of Italy's. Their ambassador is meeting with Trump today.






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Wednesday, May 17, 2017 4:15 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Syrian Crematory Is Hiding Mass Killings of Prisoners, U.S. Says

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/world/middleeast/syria-assad-prison
-crematory.html?smid=tw-share


Quote:

“The attempt to cover up mass murders in the Assad crematorium is reminiscent of the 20th century’s worst offenses against humanity,” said Nikki R. Haley, the American ambassador to the United Nations.


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, June 30, 2017 7:16 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
The latest HRW report on the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons, including at Khan Shaykhun:

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/syria0517_web_2.pdf



OPCW report concludes use of sarin in Khan Shaykhun attack (another blow to the conspiracy theorists):

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-u
se-of-chemical-weapons-in-khan-shaykhun-on-4-april-2017
/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/global-watchdog-confirms-nerve-ag
ent-used-in-april-attack-on-syrian-civilians/2017/06/30/aa316cb6-5c16-11e7-aa69-3964a7d55207_story.html?utm_term=.7c9254d75732


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Evidence the Syrian regime sponsors ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, June 30, 2017 8:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

The FFM’s [Fact Finding Mission of the OPCW] mandate is to determine whether chemical weapons or toxic chemicals as weapons have been used in Syria; it does not include identifying who is responsible for alleged attacks.

www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-use-of-ch
emical-weapons-in-khan-shaykhun-on-4-april-2017


KRAPO: You have the same problem as GSTRING - "guilty until proven innocent". The very title of your thread reveals your mind set, therefore nobody should expect anything objective from you.

Also, I realize that the OPCW's

Quote:

FFM was unable to visit Khan Shaykhun.
Therefore, the chain of custody was broken.

Quote:

The rapid deployment to a neighbouring country, however, enabled the team to attend autopsies, collect bio-medical samples from casualties and fatalities, interview witnesses and receive environmental samples.
It would be instructive to drill down on this data.
How many samples were brought to the FFM? Five? A hundred?
How were they geographically distributed at the original site?
Out of all of the samples brought to the FFM, how many showed Sarin residue?
Was it in expected concentrations? Were they able to look for impurities and stabilizers?
Did they test for anything else?

A lot more info could be gleaned from the raw data if it was available.

****

BTW, that's what I do for a living: I munch through raw data - both ours and other laboratory's - of trace chemical analyses. Sometimes its of commercial products, sometimes its of toxic releases. I do everything from look at the raw analysis data to mapping the results to giving the results a "sanity check", and I'm VERY good at what I do. VERY good. You have no idea of the breadth of errors that I'm capable of detecting. When our agency staff has a report they really want checked over, they give it to me. And just to give you an idea how closely our work resembles that of the OPCW, one of our chemists, who was trained in my group, just got a job at an international chemical-weapons-monitoring group doing an analysis that's almost exactly the same as ours.

That's why I go on so much about physical evidence. It can be very important; OTOH it can be equivocal, flawed, or even manipulated.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:26 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


UN investigates chemical weapons cooperation between Assad and North Korea, intercepts two shipments:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-syria-un-idUSKCN1B12G2

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 2:32 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
BTW, that's what I do for a living: I munch through raw data - both ours and other laboratory's - of trace chemical analyses. Sometimes its of commercial products, sometimes its of toxic releases. I do everything from look at the raw analysis data to mapping the results to giving the results a "sanity check", and I'm VERY good at what I do. VERY good. You have no idea of the breadth of errors that I'm capable of detecting. When our agency staff has a report they really want checked over, they give it to me. And just to give you an idea how closely our work resembles that of the OPCW, one of our chemists, who was trained in my group, just got a job at an international chemical-weapons-monitoring group doing an analysis that's almost exactly the same as ours.

That's why I go on so much about physical evidence. It can be very important; OTOH it can be equivocal, flawed, or even manipulated.


Sig, if you really knew your shit and could critically review evidence, you wouldn't fall for so many dumb conspiracy theories. Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 3:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

BTW, that's what I do for a living: I munch through raw data - both ours and other laboratory's - of trace chemical analyses. Sometimes its of commercial products, sometimes its of toxic releases. I do everything from look at the raw analysis data to mapping the results to giving the results a "sanity check", and I'm VERY good at what I do. VERY good. You have no idea of the breadth of errors that I'm capable of detecting. When our agency staff has a report they really want checked over, they give it to me. And just to give you an idea how closely our work resembles that of the OPCW, one of our chemists, who was trained in my group, just got a job at an international chemical-weapons-monitoring group doing an analysis that's almost exactly the same as ours.

That's why I go on so much about physical evidence. It can be very important; OTOH it can be equivocal, flawed, or even manipulated. - SIGNY

Sig, if you really knew your shit and could critically review evidence, you wouldn't fall for so many dumb conspiracy theories. Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KRAPO

Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump!


-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 4:59 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Hmm. Here's the main page in the Russia invades Ukraine thread where you assert the plausibility of a Ukrainian fighter jet being responsible for downing MH17, including posting a video about how the MH17 wreckage has apparent machine gun damage:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 5:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation. I also said that they should be collecting the spent rounds or shrapnel, or testing the edges of the penetrations for trace metals, because the kind of trace metal will tell you what kind of ammunition was used.

Don't make me dig up my quotes because you know I will!

AND YOU'RE LYING AGAIN! But thanks for the bump!


-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 5:57 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation.

It was a theory that came straight from Russian propaganda. Their typical tactic: throw up lots of conspiracy theories to hide the truth. It was obvious bullshit from the start, and has now been proven totally false. And yet you were floating it and arguing it. Why? To defend Russia of course. Ever the eager parrot of Russian propaganda.

Some quotes from the thread:

KPO - "God, the Su-25 fighter jet theory. Massive holes in that theory include that the Su-25 is a ground attack jet - it can't fly as high as MH17 was flying, and it can barely reach the speeds MH17 was cruising at. But biggest of all - the pockmark damage is on the FRONT of MH17. According to the Russians the Su-25 was tailing MH17 - so any damage would have been to the rear of the plane. And there's no way the Su-25 could have swung round and shot the MH17 in the front, because it's not fast enough (God knows why it would do this anyway)."

Sig - "You don't have to shoot a plane from the front to shoot it in the front. It can be shot from below and from the side. And since bullets travel faster than planes, the planes which were presumably trailing MH17 don't need to travel faster than the target (although they could "close in" based in their relative speeds) they just need to get close enough for a good shot."


Even you must see that this is pathetic, in retrospect.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


In retrospect, KRAPO, it's still a legitimate argument. You need to be able to keep an open mind at the beginning of an investigation, because if you start closing off possibilities prematurely, you might overlook or deny evidence that doesn't fit your theory.

Unlike you, I've done nothing but agitate for evidence. Projectiles don't lie, they're like bullet casings from a crime scene. Which is why I was scanning the reports for any mention of shrapnel evidence. And as I said, more than once, I was willing to accept wherever the evidence led.

In looking at this again, I see that shrapnel was identified as form a 9M38 series BUK missile. https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-crash/@96068/jit-flight-mh17-shot/ This missile was first deployed in 1978 and widely exported, and was replaced (in Russia) with the 9M317.

Curiously, the FINAL final report, the one that assigns liability, is still not issued. I haven't looked into this in detail. I've heard several things about it:

1) Kiev routinely used commercial airlines as cover for their military jets.
2) Either because of that, or for other reasons, they did NOT divert commercial traffic around the at-risk area, which makes them potentially liable, or partly liable.
3) Given that the identified missile was such an early type, it might have been captured from Ukraine's own weapons stores. That's what the Telegraph seems to think. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/01/the-embarrassing-question-l
eft-unanswered-by-the-mh17-report
/

Possibly, the Commission sees contributory responsibility, or can't decide if "Russia" or the rebels are to blame, who was in the chain of command and especially who ordered the missile to be fired.

So I guess I've been waiting for that FINAL final report.



-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Tuesday, August 22, 2017 10:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Wait? What? She lied?? - GSTRING


KRAPO did:
Quote:

Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KRAPO

Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump! - SIGNY

Hmm. Here's the main page in the Russia invades Ukraine thread where you assert the plausibility of a Ukrainian fighter jet being responsible for downing MH17, including posting a video about how the MH17 wreckage has apparent machine gun damage:



Yes, I said it was a POSSIBLE explanation, I never "claimed" that's what happened.
And GSTRING, infamous liar that YOU are, are all ready to pile on. Of course.

I noticed that since you had your arse handed to you here in the Charlottesville thread, where you were shown to a totalitarian jackass ... http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61855&p=7 ... you bailed from there and decided to try your luck lying here instead.

Good job!




-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 8:42 AM

THGRRI


Quote:




Sig, if you really knew your shit and could critically review evidence, you wouldn't fall for so many dumb conspiracy theories. Was it you or kiki who claimed that MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet?- KPO



Neither one of us, you lying sack of shit. But thanks for the bump!



Oh yes you did. You trolled against the truth with every possible explanation; except, the Russians did it. Just another example of your trolling SIG.






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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 9:59 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

You trolled against the truth with every possible explanation

"Trolled against the truth" - I like it. It's interesting reading that thread back a few years on. Siggy pushed false theories hard - without saying she necessarily believed them. She used pseudo-techno-speak, referenced her 'expertise' (just like a few posts above, on the sarin attack).

Why argue that hard for something you're not convinced by? To stop other people drawing the correct conclusion. Try to kick up dust and sow as much confusion as you can. Mask the truth. Argue that "there is no truth". Russian propaganda 101.

The only question is whether Sig is consciously doing what she's doing - a cynical and dishonest foot soldier in Putin's information war; or whether she's just uncritically parroting the line of Russian propaganda - a useful idiot. I would argue the latter.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 1:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Why argue that hard for something you're not convinced by? To stop other people drawing the correct conclusion?
Nope. To prevent people from JUMPING to conclusions, WHICH YOU DO ALL THE TIME. It's called "rush to judgment".

Yanno, in the sarin gas attack in East Ghouta, I was the one who kept telling you there's all kinds of evidence to look for ... for example, known stabilizers and impurities typical of a particular sarin manufacturer (each process is different), the presence of multiple shells of standard manufacture (indicating mass production) and not a hodge-podge of parts, eyewitness accounts and physical exams, wind patterns and the plume spread, intercepted communication etc.

Bellingcat infamously ran with their instant-conclusion Assad gassed his own people, based on the presence (IIRC) of the presence one tail fin, not thinking that that particular piece of evidence might have been planted, and Israel intelligence reported an "increase" in SAA communication, nobody suspecting that the "increase' might have been "Holy fuck! What was that?" "I don't know! That wasn't you?" . As it turns out, Assad gassed his own people was wrong because it was based on incomplete evidence.

Now, let's get to MH17. WHAT KINDS OF EVIDENCE MIGHT BE AVAILABLE?

Well, there are the videos that have been posted online. There are eyewitness accounts of the noise, plume, and plane; there was the pattern and scatter of the debris; radar data; communication from the ATC tower to the pilot; the black boxes; metal stress fractures in the airplane body (indicating either a fast onboard explosion or a slower breakup; intercepted communication; pattern of penetrations; and (to me) most importantly identification of the shrapnel or rounds which SHOULD be present at the crash site, embedded in the plane and bodies or traces left behind on the edges of the penetrations.

At the time, a lot of people were saying a lot of things. Some eyewitnesses said there was at least another plane. Misleading photos of a rebel "stealing" a teddy-bear were posted. There were reports of looting at the site and mishandling of evidence. Satellite photos purportedly showing drunken Ukie soldiers at THEIR OWN missile-launching site.

As is the case with any large event, there is a welter of data to sort through. I note, for example, the the identification of the shrapnel did not come until much, much later in the investigation.

OCTOBER 2015
Quote:

The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) reported yesterday that its evidence for concluding that a single ground-to-air Buk missile caused the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was
an explosive blast of sound on the cockpit voice recorder lasting 2.3 milliseconds;
a spray pattern of damage to the cockpit area of the fuselage;
three distinctively shaped metal fragments found in the bodies of the cockpit crew;
a chemical analysis of explosive residues missing 2 out of 3 warhead explosives;
and a match of paint samples collected up to 4 months apart.



SEPT 2016, another JIT report, fixing the location of the launch to rebel-controlled farmland near Pervomaiskyi.
https://www.politie.nl/en/news/2016/september/28/jit-flight-mh17-was-s
hot-down-by-a-buk-missile-from-a-farmland-near-pervomaiskyi.html


The final report fixing liability is still pending, but

Quote:

... aviation lawyers close to the MH17 case now believe there is no evidence of a crime – a war crime, a crime against humanity, or a crime of terrorism — that would meet international prosecution standards. ...

However, it will be difficult to prove that Russian forces, even if they provided the weapons, were aware of the alleged criminal act that the separatists were about to commit ...

... victims may rather want to pursue the avenue of civil liability of assorted organized actors, in particular of Ukraine [For directing air traffic over a conflict area? SIGNY], the Russian Federation [for potentially providing the weapon], the People’s Republics Donetsk/Luhansk [the party potentially response for firing the missile], and Malaysia Airlines [Good lord, I have no idea why, other than they have deep pockets and its easy to prove the passengers were on the airplane! - SIGNY]


http://blog.ucall.nl/index.php/2015/04/international-criminal-and-civi
l-liability-for-the-downing-of-mh17-an-uphill-struggle
/

As it turns out, the online videos were correct in assigning a launch location (BTW, the video which nailed the case wasn't posted online) but the Russia did it! narrative hasn't been demonstrated. I said before, I'm ready to accept whatever the evidence shows. But collecting evidence and proving guilt is sometimes a long, slow process. The JIT is still looking for insider testimony in exchange for a reduced sentence.

I still wonder about Igor Strelkov, and any role he might have played.

But jumping to conclusions isn't part of the process.

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


G,

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by rank dumbass-ery"

One of my favourite razors.

Sig,

Quote:

Nope. To prevent people from JUMPING to conclusions, WHICH YOU DO ALL THE TIME. It's called "rush to judgment".

But we keep being right, and all your alternate theories keep being wrong. Russia annexing Crimea with its "little green men". Russia waging war in the Donbass. MH17 being shot down by a Buk from separatist territory. The Khan Shaykun attack being Sarin. Etc, etc...


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 3:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

But we keep being right- KRAPO
No, you keep being wrong. That's why I brought up Assad gassed his own people

Here's another case where you were wrong: Proshenko claims he destroyed a Russian military convoy in Ukraine. A reporter witnessed a a convoy of 23 Russian vehicles, crossing over into Ukrainian territory, running with the lights on through an unguarded part of the border. Prosohenko claims the mighty Ukrainian military shelled it and destroyed it. None other than the NATO Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, claimed this was true!

This is what I said about it at the time:
Quote:

From what I've read so far, since everybody uses the same or similar equipment, it would be hard to tell the difference between a Kiev-controlled APC and a Russian one except by close examination ....

If the convoy was destroyed, there should be a line of burned-out APCs visible by satellite or drone. There should be prisoners or bodies. But again, no photos, no evidence, no on-the-ground examination.

NO EVIDENCE. This particular unprovable incident, which might very possibly have been a photo shoot and propaganda-piece by Kiev, was the basis for the original "Russia invades Ukraine" claim.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=1

Here are a few more cases where you were wrong:

Quote:

So, in your opinion, the USA invaded Panama to stop drug flow, but didn't make a dent in it. The USA bombed Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban and bring democracy, but failed. The USA embargoed, bombed, invaded and occupied Iraq in order to topple a tyrant and bring freedom to the people, and after 10 years and a trillion dollars left a great smoking clusterfuck of ruin. The USA and NATO bombed Libya to support pro-democracy rebels' fight against Qaddafi, but wound up promoting jihadists instead. The USA fomented rebellion in Syria to topple (yet another) tyrant, and wound up arming and funding ISIl/ISIS/IS. The USA agitated to split South Sudan from Sudan to save the black Xtian South Sudanese from their Arab Muslim northern overlords, and ended up with a corrupt government and civil war.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=3

In each case, what was missing was EVIDENCE for military intervention.

This very thread Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria was birthed in confirmation bias and steeped in prejudicial (prejudicial = to PREJUDGE] anecdote.

Quote:

... and all your alternate theories keep being wrong.- KRAPO
My alternate theories are alternate THEORIES, not alternate conclusions. The reason why I bring them up is to inform you that there are multiple possible explanations. Unlike you, I refuse to settle on one fixed conclusion until there's enough evidence to analyze.



-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:36 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

No, you keep being wrong.

Every one of the 4 examples I gave of me (and others) being right has been verified by official bodies - weapons inspectors, official MH17 investigators and the Russian government actually confessing. So what higher authority are you citing to tell me I'm wrong? Zerohedge? Your own "expertise"? You know better from behind your computer than weapons and aviation experts who've analysed the physical evidence?

Quote:

Here's another case where you were wrong: Proshenko claims he destroyed a Russian military convoy in Ukraine... NO EVIDENCE. This particular unprovable incident

First of all: STRAWMAN. Neither I, nor anyone else on this board (as far as I know) asserted that Poroshenko's claim was true. Second: utter logic fail. You think that a lack of evidence means that a claim is definitely wrong?? No. A lack of evidence means just that - a lack of evidence. Something can be completely true and still, for various reasons, lack evidence.

Quote:

Here are a few more cases where you were wrong:

Oh piss off. Now you're just quoting one of your rants from another thread??

Quote:

Unlike you, I refuse to settle on one fixed conclusion until there's enough evidence to analyze.

Ha, you utter clown, that's exactly what you've just done, repeatedly. "Assad didn't gas his own people", "Russia didn't send a convoy into Ukraine". The evidence is to the contrary for both of these "fixed conclusions", but more than that, you categorically can NOT prove them. I'll give you a clue: it's logically impossible. And yet here you are, stating these two conclusions as facts.


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Wednesday, August 23, 2017 8:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

No, you keep being wrong. Every one of the 4 examples I gave of me (and others) being right has been verified by official bodies - weapons inspectors, official MH17 investigators and the Russian government actually confessing.
Yeah, uh huh.
Cites and links, please
Quote:

So what higher authority are you citing to tell me I'm wrong? Zerohedge? Your own "expertise"? You know better from behind your computer than weapons and aviation experts who've analysed the physical evidence?

Okie dokie. Your ridiculous "four examples"

Quote:

Russia annexing Crimea with its "little green men".- KRAPO
I never said it didn't happen, so what ARE you going on about? HOWEVER, they also held a referendum, which I said should be repeated under official international observation to confirm the results.

Quote:

Russia waging war in the Donbass.-KRAPO
I never said Russia wasn't "waging a war", in fact, I believe I called it a PROXY WAR. So, what ARE you going on about? What I said was that it didn't rise to the definition of INVASION. And, it doesn't.

Quote:

MH17 being shot down by a Buk from separatist territory.- KRAPO
I never said it wasn't. Shortly afterwards, I pointed out several different theories as to who might have shot it down, and pointed out ADDITIONAL DATA that should be available for analysis in order to reach a solid conclusion. That additional data has since been collected. Legal liability has not yet been assigned. "Russia did it" is unproven so far.

Quote:

The Khan Shaykun attack being Sarin.- KRAPO
I never said it wasn't Sarin. In fact, just a few posts up from here, this is what I said

Quote:

It would be instructive to drill down on this data.
How many samples were brought to the FFM? Five? A hundred?
How were they geographically distributed at the original site?
Out of all of the samples brought to the FFM, how many showed Sarin residue?
Was it in expected concentrations? Were they able to look for impurities and stabilizers?
Did they test for anything else?



What I was more interested in was the picture of the so-called "missile" which "delivered" the chemical weapon, because the missile tube looks like it was CRUSHED FROM THE OUTSIDE IN THE MIDDLE.

Quote:

Here's another case where you were wrong: Proshenko claims he destroyed a Russian military convoy in Ukraine... NO EVIDENCE. This particular unprovable incident ... SIGNY

First of all: STRAWMAN. Neither I, nor anyone else on this board (as far as I know) asserted that Poroshenko's claim was true.

Except GSTRING, who posted in support of his previous post about the so-called invasion
Quote:

Russian military has moved into Ukraine - fact.- GSTRING


Quote:

Second: utter logic fail. You think that a lack of evidence means that a claim is definitely wrong?? No. A lack of evidence means just that - a lack of evidence. Something can be completely true and still, for various reasons, lack evidence.
When someone is making a claim, and the evidence is easy to see, and should be easily obtainable, and it is in their best interest to provide it, why would it not be made available?

I can understand that evidence can be elusive. It can be hard to suss out from noise, it could be inaccessible, or (the bane of science) not entirely reproducible, but for someone Like Poroshenko ... who has had a history of lying and the NATO Scy General to make a claim, you would think they WOULD produce the evidence.

Quote:

Here are a few more cases where you were wrong: .... SIGNY

Oh piss off. Now you're just quoting one of your rants from another thread??= KRAPO

YEP! Because it sure saves typing, and just show you how long ago I was proving you wrong! And you're STILL wrong.

Quote:

Unlike you, I refuse to settle on one fixed conclusion until there's enough evidence to analyze.- SIGNY

Ha, you utter clown, that's exactly what you've just done, repeatedly. "Assad didn't gas his own people" "Russia didn't send a convoy into Ukraine". The evidence is to the contrary for both of these "fixed conclusions"

The ASSERTIONS are to the contrary. The evidence??? not so much. But, yeah sure ... cites and links, please.

Quote:

but more than that, you categorically can NOT prove them. I'll give you a clue: it's logically impossible. And yet here you are, stating these two conclusions as facts.- KRAPO
It is, indeed, logically impossible to prove a negative. So we must re-frame the hypothesis in such as way as to make it disprovable instead of provable.

Assad gassed his own people
Any solid evidence to the contrary disproves the hypothesis.

Ukraine destroyed a Russian convoy inside Ukraine
Any solid evidence to the contrary disproves the hypothesis.

We can also reframe them alternately -
Ghouta was gassed by someone other than Assad and Proshenko and Rasmussen lied about the so-called "Russian invasion"

Perhaps there isn't enough evidence either way, in which case, they are UNTESTABLE, and a conclusion can't be reached. But based on another line of legal reasoning ... cui bono? ... I'm pretty sure I'm right.


-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 12:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Russia annexing Crimea with its "little green men".- KRAPO
I never said it didn't happen, so what ARE you going on about?


Here's you arguing it didn't happen:

Signym: "But, yes, there were "little green men" in Crimea, in the background and not doing anything, as far as I - or anyone- can tell."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58021&p=1

Quote:

I never said it wasn't Sarin.

Here's you saying it wasn't sarin:

Signym: "As far as I can tell, this attack was just as phony as the "Assad gassed his own people in Ghouta" story. One telling point- for those who have not bothered to look into the evidence - is that the "rescuers" were handling the "victims" with bare hands. If the CW agent were really Sarin, the "rescuers" themselves would have been dead. That is an .incontrovertible. fact. Ergo, everyone who says it was "sarin" is lying or mistaken."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61551&p=2

Quote:

Quote:
MH17 being shot down by a Buk from separatist territory.- KRAPO
I never said it wasn't.


Ha, actually you said several times that Kiev was to blame for MH17. But you don't seem to understand what you are being accused of. You seem to have lost the thread of the whole argument. I gave 4 examples where I was right (and others) and where YOU argued otherwise. Now, your arguing otherwise was not always saying we were 100% wrong - you sometimes simply pushed alternate (false) theories hard, and accused us of "rushing to judgement". But we were right. And you were arguing against the truth. Repeatedly. This is my point, and you can't deny it.

Quote:

Quote:
First of all: STRAWMAN. Neither I, nor anyone else on this board (as far as I know) asserted that Poroshenko's claim was true.
Except GSTRING


That's a lie. G posted that he didn't believe Poroshenko's claim at all.

I may respond to the rest of your post later, but that's enough for now.


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Russia annexing Crimea with its "little green men".- KRAPO
I never said it didn't happen, so what ARE you going on about?

Here's you arguing it didn't happen:
Signym: "But, yes, there were "little green men" in Crimea, in the background and not doing anything, as far as I - or anyone- can tell."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58021&p=1

No, that is me arguing that there WERE "little green men" in Crimea. But. what did they "DO" to annex it? Did they call in bombing runs, roll tanks thru the streets, or shell Crimea? Did they even shoot anyone? I think if they weren't already broadly welcome or at least tolerated by the population at large, there would have been popular resistance. Since there wasn't, it seems to me that separation of Crimea from Ukraine was largely motivated by the population itself, not "caused by" the "little green men".

Which is why I would like to see the referendum repeated with official (UN) international observers, to validate the result (or not) and separate out the role of the "little green men" from the vote.

Quote:

I never said it wasn't Sarin.- SIGNY

Here's you saying it wasn't sarin:
Signym: "As far as I can tell, this attack was just as phony as the "Assad gassed his own people in Ghouta" story. One telling point- for those who have not bothered to look into the evidence - is that the "rescuers" were handling the "victims" with bare hands. If the CW agent were really Sarin, the "rescuers" themselves would have been dead. That is an .incontrovertible. fact. Ergo, everyone who says it was "sarin" is lying or mistaken."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61551&p=2

Okay, I did say it wasn't Sarin. And it probably wasn't, for those bodies.

But in light of the results that Sarin was detected, I revised my understanding with the later questions ... How many samples? etc.

Here's why:

One plausible scenario for the Sarin attack on East Ghouta was that the "rebels" themselves released the liquid. This is reported by Seymour Hersh, here is one such report https://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n24/seymour-m-hersh/whose-sarin

In - literally- the day following the attack, it was noted by Mother Agnes (a Catholic nun in Syria) some of the same children were seen, over and over, in different places and different photos, and that some of the (unique) victims appears to be being injected with something. (Why would you inject a dead body with anything?) I've posted the stills of those "recycled" victims already; it's very clear that the "rebels" - if nothing else- know how to make a good photo-op out of a tragedy and inflate the number of victims; and this would be even easier if the whole attack was pre-planned. There's more to the story than this, but I'm only going to lightly reference the "White Helmets" handling (or mishandling) of victims in some of their videos to note that the "rebels" - like the jihadists - know how to make good use of the media.

The attack in Khan Shaykhun might have been very much the same: Perpetrated by the "rebels", who inflated the number of victims. Since ALL of the evidence was provided by the "rebels", I would be interested in know, for example, if any blood samples were taken from the victims, how many samples were taken, and if they showed the concentration that one might expect from a fatal dose of Sarin, or if the concentration appears to be incidental. Similarly, if environmental samples - leaves, rocks - collected from the site and mapped against the impact describe a plume which would account for the number of victims. And finally, a close examination of the missile tube body photo, which appears to be damaged in the middle.

Quote:

MH17 being shot down by a Buk from separatist territory.- KRAPO
I never said it wasn't. - SIGNY
Ha, actually you said several times that Kiev was to blame for MH17.

Quotes and links?

Quote:

But you don't seem to understand what you are being accused of. You seem to have lost the thread of the whole argument. I gave 4 examples where I was right (and others) and where YOU argued otherwise. Now, your arguing otherwise was not always saying we were 100% wrong - you sometimes simply pushed alternate (false) theories hard, and accused us of "rushing to judgement". But we were right. And you were arguing against the truth. Repeatedly. This is my point, and you can't deny it.-KRAPO

The "Russian invasion of Ukraine" never happened, not even in Crimea.
Assad probably did not "gas his own people".
GSTRING posted that he didn't trust Poroshenko, but he ALSO posted that it was "fact" that Russia had entered Ukraine. And that's a fact - I even quoted him.

It seems that I'm "accused of" thinking wrong thoughts.




-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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Thursday, August 24, 2017 6:58 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

No, that is me arguing that there WERE "little green men" in Crimea. But. what did they "DO" to annex it?

Putin has already admitted the military operation to take Crimea, he's even handed out medals to the Russian troops who took part... Why are you still arguing this? You're like that Japanese soldier who refused to surrender 30 years after WW2. YOU WERE WRONG SIG (and for some reason you insist on still being wrong).

Quote:

Okay, I did say it wasn't Sarin.

Good.

Quote:

And it probably wasn't, for those bodies.

And I almost respected you there a little, for a minute.

Quote:

The "Russian invasion of Ukraine" never happened, not even in Crimea.
Assad probably did not "gas his own people".


I give you 4 facts where you've been proved wrong, and you counter with... your opinions, stated as fact. Yawn.



-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, August 25, 2017 7:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Signy saying Kiev was responsible for shooting down MH17:

"Based on my reading, I’d guess that it was the Ukranian government behind the shootdown, mistaking it for Putin’s plane that reportedly was in the area."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=15

"when all is said and done- eventually we'll probably find out that it was... neo-Nazis who brought down MH17."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=9

Really interesting to go back through that old thread with the benefit of proof and hindsight, to see Siggy relentlessly spewing bullshit and trashing all of us who were speaking the truth.

God bless Ctrl-F.


-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, August 25, 2017 10:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I hope you realize the final report that assigns criminal blame has been withheld and left to the individual governments to pursue.

But I guess that doesn't stop YOU from pretending that that information is available and that your posts are based on information! Which, to be perfectly clear, they're not.




Trump is not the problem. He set himself against the Deep State's agenda. And the Deep State's been heading for WWIII for years.
As for you, you're just a Deep State useful idiot, furthering its agenda. So I hope you enjoy cesium in your coffee. You've earned it.

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Friday, August 25, 2017 1:44 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Kiki, Signy's link is a good place to start to bring yourself up to speed:

Quote:

Nederland - The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is convinced of having obtained irrefutable evidence to establish that on 17 July 2014, flight MH-17 was shot down by a BUK missile from the 9M38-series. According to the JIT there is also evidence identifying the launch location that involves an agricultural field near Pervomaiskyi which, at the time, was controlled by pro-Russian fighters.

https://www.politie.nl/en/news/2016/september/28/jit-flight-mh17-was-s
hot-down-by-a-buk-missile-from-a-farmland-near-pervomaiskyi.html


At this stage, what do you think is the most likely explanation for the downing of MH17 kiki? Do you have any alternative theory that hasn't already been shot to pieces? Do you think, perhaps, that the Buk missile was shot from separatist territory by the Ukrainian army?

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521


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Friday, August 25, 2017 4:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

No, that is me arguing that there WERE "little green men" in Crimea. But. what did they "DO" to annex it? - SIGNY
Putin has already admitted the military operation to take Crimea, he's even handed out medals to the Russian troops who took part... - KRAPO

So, what were the medals for? Bravery under fire? A small group of lightly-armed men holding out against overwhelming odds?

NOPE! The medals were for "helping Crimea self-determinate", and they were also awarded to the Night Wolves (a motorcycle club).

KRAPO, when you have a military force taking and holding territory from a formal hostile military force and a hostile population, it quite often involves air support, artillery, tanks, and ground forces, followed by a military occupation- a classic "invasion". Did that happen in Crimea? No.

When you have a military force taking and holding territory from a hostile military force and a FRIENDLY population, that still involves an invasion, but the people are waving happily at the incoming forces, and most often WE call that "liberation". Did that happen in Crimea? Not really, because there was no military invasion, not even violence.

When you have a military force taking and holding territory against a hostile population, quite often you will see guerrilla warfare as a result. Did that happen in Crimea? Not that either.

I really think the best description of what happened is that Russia sent in - in effect - militarized police, into an area where the population was quite friendly. Your various contortions into trying to describe the separation of Crimea as some sort of military invasion just really doesn't fit what happened. I'm not sure how international law applies to "separatist" movements, but I think this was one of them.

Quote:

Okay, I did say it wasn't Sarin. - SIGNY
Good.- KRAPO
And it probably wasn't, for those bodies.- SIGNY
And I almost respected you there a little, for a minute.- KRAPO

KRAPO, I'm not saying that Sarin wasn't used at Kayn Shakoun. It's just that the "White Helmets" are pretty good at maximizing photo-ops. Anyone bare-handedly manipulating the body of someone of who was exposed to a lethal dose of Sarin can themselves be exposed to a lethal dose of Sarin. Victims should have their clothes removed and be washed first. Maybe these people are incredibly casual and incredibly lucky, but it sure looks hinky seeing a presumed Sarin victim being handled like that.

I want to go back to Ghouta and Khan Shaykhun. I did further fact-hunting on Ghouta, because the UN Inspectors had a chance to personally investigate the scene, since they were just-arrived in Syria to discuss three other instances of chemical weapons. What happened in Khan Shaykun is hopelessly obscured by the fact that none of the evidence was collected by a third party.

The UN weapons inspectors realized that the sites had already been disturbed, but their inspectors did mention that they took samples under proper chain of custody, carried them under military guard, and split them with Syrian authorities. Two different UN officials said the following

1) Ake Sellstrom, Chief UN weapons inspector in Syria: "The building material was quite soft, so we were able to talk about the trajectory because we could follow the rocket through lightweight building material and into the soil. We could sample on the way and get a picture that fitted." http://www.cbrneworld.com/_uploads/download_magazines/Sellstrom_Feb_20
14_v2.pdf


2) Angela Kane, UN High Representative for Disarmament Affairs at the time. 'No sarin detected in West Ghouta environment, only in human samples'

So in 30 environmental samples, NONE of them showed Sarin?

In the RT video, Kane rules out the possibility that Sarin could have evaporated in five days, and chalks up the lack of finding to simply not sampling in the right place. And yet, according to Sellstrom, they sampled in places that should have been the BEST place to sample (e.g around or near the impact crater).

In order to reach a solid conclusion, I would need to look at ALL of the data: The testimony of Turkish officials that jihadists in Turkey were attempting to produce Sarin, the identity of the stabilizer in the Sarin samples, detailed pictures of the missiles, particularly the front-end, and locations of the missile craters and locations of environmental samples etc. Really, it would require an entire research project and information that I'm not likely to get - some of it is probably classified anyway.

But the videos provided by the "rebels" were somewhat staged, as some of the same children's bodies appear over and over in different pictures. The Inspectors didn't even get to sample from the mass graves, so Sarin couldn't be tested for in the victims, and no independent fatality count can be made. There's just a lot of confounding evidence about the Ghouta chemical attack that doesn't make sense, and the facts don't all support the narrative that Assad gassed his own people, and some evidence points in another direction.

-----------
By the way, GSTRING, I predicted your response PERFECTLY
* ... and then you'll say I'm "too wordy". And then you will - as always- refuse to address the pertinent points, and respond with even more lies and even more bullshit personal attacks.*

And voila! Here it is http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61835&mid=1
035581#1035581

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